Comments on: Waterstone's give in to hate preacher Stephen Green as he threatens more artists http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/ PinkNews.co.uk Gay News (UK and world) from Pink News - all the gay news for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community in the UK and beyond- thegaynews from Pink News Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:36:48 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-2/#comment-38241 patrick jones Wed, 19 Nov 2008 06:51:57 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38241 thank you for yr dialogue flapjack- i think it is good to get these discussions in the open- interestingly three welsh a.m.s have now asked for the reading to be cancelled due to"blasphemy and profanity" in the poems that they probably haven't read- and i can assure you i have not sent them an email or provoked them in any way!!!! be safe, create dangerously x thank you for yr dialogue flapjack- i think it is good to get these discussions in the open- interestingly three welsh a.m.s have now asked for the reading to be cancelled due to"blasphemy and profanity" in the poems that they probably haven't read- and i can assure you i have not sent them an email or provoked them in any way!!!! be safe, create dangerously
x

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-2/#comment-38207 flapjack Tue, 18 Nov 2008 15:10:08 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38207 Thanks Patrick - I believe you are a passionate person with a lot to say and athough our approaches are different I think our intentions are the same. I simply urge you to reign in some of that passion when the occasion demands it as it seems to occasionally cloud your better judgement. The facts should speak for themselves. As to whether Waterstones were right or wrong, that debate will run and run as you say. I suspect we'll have to agree to differ on that, but I say take your battle for equality to source and deal directly with Stephen Green. That's one thing I think we both agree needs to happen. Good luck with the book x Thanks Patrick – I believe you are a passionate person with a lot to say and athough our approaches are different I think our intentions are the same. I simply urge you to reign in some of that passion when the occasion demands it as it seems to occasionally cloud your better judgement. The facts should speak for themselves.
As to whether Waterstones were right or wrong, that debate will run and run as you say. I suspect we'll have to agree to differ on that, but I say take your battle for equality to source and deal directly with Stephen Green. That's one thing I think we both agree needs to happen. Good luck with the book x

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-2/#comment-38205 patrick jones Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:52:18 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38205 yes i would debate with rowan williams-i woudl read him poems jsut as i would listen to cv hymns adn their protests-i do not want this to get personal i think we are on the same side??? i am not out for publicity- i do not sell many books- i care passionately about what i write as i am sure you do what you believe and feel- waterstones are no innocent party- they could have gone ahead i went down to the store on the night- not a single cv protestor- i do not want your agreement i jsut wanted ot put my side- but the facts remain- cv forced a bookshop to cancel ancevent- now they could have doen this via a corporate press release or by seeing my website or been alerted by someone-i emailed them three poems a while back i had also sent s green an eamil and poems in defence of ian h watkins in march 08- no reply - now they are out and ranting hate let us meet them- now is the issue not then- i could not what would happen- i actually forgot i had emailed cv the poems- honest-!! but they are out there because of me and not because of me-it is jsut a few poems not law not a memo- the debate may rumble on- i thank you for your questions and debate- peace, questions and poetry- x yes i would debate with rowan williams-i woudl read him poems jsut as i would listen to cv hymns adn their protests-i do not want this to get personal i think we are on the same side??? i am not out for publicity- i do not sell many books- i care passionately about what i write as i am sure you do what you believe and feel- waterstones are no innocent party- they could have gone ahead i went down to the store on the night- not a single cv protestor- i do not want your agreement i jsut wanted ot put my side- but the facts remain- cv forced a bookshop to cancel ancevent- now they could have doen this via a corporate press release or by seeing my website or been alerted by someone-i emailed them three poems a while back i had also sent s green an eamil and poems in defence of ian h watkins in march 08- no reply – now they are out and ranting hate let us meet them- now is the issue not then- i could not what would happen- i actually forgot i had emailed cv the poems- honest-!! but they are out there because of me and not because of me-it is jsut a few poems not law not a memo- the debate may rumble on- i thank you for your questions and debate- peace, questions and poetry-

x

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38203 flapjack Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:41:32 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38203 Fair enough Patrick - I'm fine with the reading I'm fine with your poems, I support the idea of free speech (though the hate speech element of that is still something of a philosophical sticky wicket.) It's also fair to say I haven't protested anything in person for a good long while, so I take that criticism on board. I only question the tactics. Christian voice do not have a track record as an organisation that sits down calmly with their legs crossed while you read them passages from your book in a bookshop and invite questions at the end. Wherever Stephen Green goes, there's placards, a rally and a pamplet at the very least. Waterstones never signed up for that, or the threats, and you can't say you didn't invite CV to the party. Perhaps your protest against Christian Voice should be taken to Stephen Green's doorstep, so as not to rope in innocent third parties? When was the last time Rowan Williams invited you to his book launch, implied that you personally were an idiot in a personally addressed letter sent to your door and selected a bunch of passages from the bible to the effect of "atheists are stupid" to include with it? If that happened, and you still had a civilised discussion about it with him afterwards you'd have a stronger case. Fair enough Patrick – I'm fine with the reading I'm fine with your poems, I support the idea of free speech (though the hate speech element of that is still something of a philosophical sticky wicket.)
It's also fair to say I haven't protested anything in person for a good long while, so I take that criticism on board. I only question the tactics. Christian voice do not have a track record as an organisation that sits down calmly with their legs crossed while you read them passages from your book in a bookshop and invite questions at the end. Wherever Stephen Green goes, there's placards, a rally and a pamplet at the very least.
Waterstones never signed up for that, or the threats, and you can't say you didn't invite CV to the party. Perhaps your protest against Christian Voice should be taken to Stephen Green's doorstep, so as not to rope in innocent third parties?
When was the last time Rowan Williams invited you to his book launch, implied that you personally were an idiot in a personally addressed letter sent to your door and selected a bunch of passages from the bible to the effect of "atheists are stupid" to include with it? If that happened, and you still had a civilised discussion about it with him afterwards you'd have a stronger case.

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38198 patrick jones Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:14:17 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38198 no- you are missing the point and please answer the question about the continued threats- peter black's office has received 100 abusive emails- do they cave in? do the institutes cave in? shit storm - what a useless phrase of expression- you can think what you like but to orchestrate a boycott-no thanks, invite debate, i want cv to be there i want atheists to be there i want muslims to be there- so what? one of my heroes, peter tatchell send emails every day asking for support for various issues and against certain organisations- brilliant - good luck to him and he is a huge supporter of free speech- more of that we want and fucking need in this mediocracy- book launch should have gone ahead do you not agree? and the sole reason was cv's abuse- and continued threats what are you going to do about that sit on a forum or actually get out there??i am and i am going to stand for what i believe- what is so fucking wrong with that? again provoked or not- what is provocation? what would make you close down a reading? or would you? or protest- fuck me three years ago i had to attend a council meeting where they agreed to destroy 3000 trees for the sake of a three mile road- we protested we set out our stall- i send poems al lthe time- that is what i do - sorry if you do not agree- book signing should have gone ahead- if it was rowan williams' latest book and atheists had complained do you really think waterstones would have given in even if naughty rowan had emailed a few before hand- sorry you miss the point- time to stand up be counted- do whatever it fucking takes- no- you are missing the point and please answer the question about the continued threats- peter black's office has received 100 abusive emails- do they cave in? do the institutes cave in? shit storm – what a useless phrase of expression- you can think what you like but to orchestrate a boycott-no thanks, invite debate, i want cv to be there i want atheists to be there i want muslims to be there- so what? one of my heroes, peter tatchell send emails every day asking for support for various issues and against certain organisations- brilliant – good luck to him and he is a huge supporter of free speech- more of that we want and fucking need in this mediocracy- book launch should have gone ahead do you not agree? and the sole reason was cv's abuse- and continued threats what are you going to do about that sit on a forum or actually get out there??i am and i am going to stand for what i believe- what is so fucking wrong with that?
again provoked or not- what is provocation? what would make you close down a reading? or would you? or protest- fuck me three years ago i had to attend a council meeting where they agreed to destroy 3000 trees for the sake of a three mile road- we protested we set out our stall- i send poems al lthe time- that is what i do – sorry if you do not agree- book signing should have gone ahead- if it was rowan williams' latest book and atheists had complained do you really think waterstones would have given in even if naughty rowan had emailed a few before hand-
sorry you miss the point- time to stand up be counted- do whatever it fucking takes-

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38197 flapjack Tue, 18 Nov 2008 14:02:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38197 Patrick - with respect, you still appear to miss the point. The point is your protest BACKFIRED on you and us. The reason it backfired is you can't be so naive as to think Stephen Green would pass up a provocative letter, less still when you maintain it was a simple neutral press release against all available evidence. For all I care Stephen Green can take a running jump, if he took a long walk off a short pier no-one would be happier than myself. All the points you raise about his character are valid ones, but the problem as I see it is the headline in the next day's paper isn't "Bigot disrupts poetry event" it's "Poet orchestrates his own boycott and then blames Waterstones for the resulting shitstorm". In the battle for hearts and minds you are in danger of scoring an own goal. You can say everything you said about Green quite legitimately if you remove the issue of the book signing, but with every denial of culpability for the boycott the credibility gap widens. Why not picket Green's other protests? It wouldn't take much research. I hate who Green is and what he stands for as much as yourself, but if we use underhanded tactics our own credibility disappears down the toilet. Patrick – with respect, you still appear to miss the point. The point is your protest BACKFIRED on you and us. The reason it backfired is you can't be so naive as to think Stephen Green would pass up a provocative letter, less still when you maintain it was a simple neutral press release against all available evidence.
For all I care Stephen Green can take a running jump, if he took a long walk off a short pier no-one would be happier than myself. All the points you raise about his character are valid ones, but the problem as I see it is the headline in the next day's paper isn't "Bigot disrupts poetry event" it's "Poet orchestrates his own boycott and then blames Waterstones for the resulting shitstorm".
In the battle for hearts and minds you are in danger of scoring an own goal.
You can say everything you said about Green quite legitimately if you remove the issue of the book signing, but with every denial of culpability for the boycott the credibility gap widens.
Why not picket Green's other protests? It wouldn't take much research. I hate who Green is and what he stands for as much as yourself, but if we use underhanded tactics our own credibility disappears down the toilet.

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38196 patrick jones Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:45:23 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38196 an email sent by a cv member from a venue i am reading at- they are upset by all this- a workingmen's stute built by the miners of this area in 1904 - knowledge is power once their motto- "The so called 'poetry' this man spews out breaks the law. It is incitement to hate and violence; it discriminates against Christians, it is very offensive and insulting not just to Christians but also to many non-Christians who feel their British Culture in this (majority) Christian Country is being further mocked and eroded. How can you call yourself a Christian. You cannot possibly be a Christian if you even allow this man over the doorstep let alone encourage what he does. I cannot believe Wales has sunk so low in the Gutter and will encourage all my friends to boycott your 'drama' centre in future. You appear to have no idea how truely, deeply offensive this mans filth is to Christians. Time we got the national British press to print our feelings.How can you allow gays to think they are right. Would you allow me to read a poem entitled 'did allah shag camels?' - that answer says it all really." C. Jones so provoked or not should we tolerate this- they wont give in- it is about time we stood together on this - an email sent by a cv member from a venue i am reading at- they are upset by all this- a workingmen's stute built by the miners of this area in 1904 – knowledge is power once their motto-
"The so called 'poetry' this man spews out breaks the law. It is incitement to hate and violence; it discriminates against Christians, it is very offensive and insulting not just to Christians but also to many non-Christians who feel their British Culture in this (majority) Christian Country is being further mocked and eroded.
How can you call yourself a Christian. You cannot possibly be a Christian if you even allow this man over the doorstep let alone encourage what he does. I cannot believe Wales has sunk so low in the Gutter and will encourage all my friends to boycott your 'drama' centre in future. You appear to have no idea how truely, deeply offensive this mans filth is to Christians. Time we got the national British press to print our feelings.How can you allow gays to think they are right. Would you allow me to read a poem entitled 'did allah shag camels?' – that answer says it all really."

C. Jones

so provoked or not should we tolerate this- they wont give in-

it is about time we stood together on this -

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38195 patrick jones Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:39:29 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38195 no i did not know what cv would do and was shocked and dismayed when i heard that they had forced waterstones to cancel- so now they are threatening venues regardless of an email- do you not think this is a rather insidious campaign to wage and doesn't it just show them up for what they are- the provocation has been removed yet they still rage on threatening freedom of speech so i do not miss the point and i did not provoke into a fight just merely made his group as well as other religious organisations aware of a few poems- so if you are prepared to stand by and let this happen well that is your choice- i am not victim and i stil lfeel waterstones should have gone ahead- then all this is superfluous and an un needed issue-and yes my freedom of speech was halted no matter how they heard about the event- if this had been a bnp protest then the police would have been called- but no it proves my point how we tip around religions- can't you see that- they wil ldo this again and elegant or not the debate needs to be heard- from artists poets bands thinkers- but hey if you are more concerned with poor old stephen green that is up to you- how much provocation do cv need- being gay, being an A.M who invites a reading, educating young people about sex, being foreign, being muslim(check his site)- fucking hell come on- what are you scared of- he said of the cancellation of cardiff's gay pride festival this year it was "god's work"- that offends me- he insulted ian h watkins on tv- that offended me- i spoke up -he became aware of my book- then acted- fucking deal with it no i did not know what cv would do and was shocked and dismayed when i heard that they had forced waterstones to cancel- so now they are threatening venues regardless of an email- do you not think this is a rather insidious campaign to wage and doesn't it just show them up for what they are- the provocation has been removed yet they still rage on threatening freedom of speech so i do not miss the point and i did not provoke into a fight just merely made his group as well as other religious organisations aware of a few poems- so if you are prepared to stand by and let this happen well that is your choice- i am not victim and i stil lfeel waterstones should have gone ahead- then all this is superfluous and an un needed issue-and yes my freedom of speech was halted no matter how they heard about the event- if this had been a bnp protest then the police would have been called- but no it proves my point how we tip around religions- can't you see that- they wil ldo this again and elegant or not the debate needs to be heard- from artists poets bands thinkers-
but hey if you are more concerned with poor old stephen green that is up to you- how much provocation do cv need- being gay, being an A.M who invites a reading, educating young people about sex, being foreign, being muslim(check his site)- fucking hell come on- what are you scared of- he said of the cancellation of cardiff's gay pride festival this year it was "god's work"- that offends me- he insulted ian h watkins on tv- that offended me- i spoke up -he became aware of my book- then acted- fucking deal with it

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]]> By: Ele http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38193 Ele Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:15:01 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38193 Patrick, you seem to be intentionally missing Flapjack's point. The point is that Waterstone's has done nothing wrong. They continue to stock your book and have been most civilised by not publicly discussing your actions -- you taunted Stephen Green (a rightwing, homophobe by all accounts) and provoked him into a fight, then wanted Waterstone's to host the tournament. Mate, that's like the matador wanting to use a chinashop as a bullring. Patrick, you seem to be intentionally missing Flapjack's point. The point is that Waterstone's has done nothing wrong. They continue to stock your book and have been most civilised by not publicly discussing your actions — you taunted Stephen Green (a rightwing, homophobe by all accounts) and provoked him into a fight, then wanted Waterstone's to host the tournament. Mate, that's like the matador wanting to use a chinashop as a bullring.

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38192 flapjack Tue, 18 Nov 2008 13:05:55 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38192 Patrick - Thanks for the swift reply. I too welcome this debate. OK perhaps you weren't playing the victim card and you see yourself as "Agent Provocateur". That's fine. I don't mind you rattling Stephen Green's cage in principle, it's a cage that deserves a good rattle. The credibility gap comes when you go on Welsh TV claiming that he's infringing your freedom of speech when you must have expected him to do just that when you sent him the letter (or was it an e-mail) in conjunction with a book launch. You can see how I wouldn't need to be the most cynical person in the world to link 'Booklaunch' and 'giant calculated publicity stunt' together in my head, and regretably I'm not the only one that made the connection. If you'd attacked Green in any other context, it would stand by itself as an attack on a vile fundamentalist bigot. But to try to make bigger claims about free speech in the full knowledge that you must've known what he'd do when you posted the letter, just by the most cursory glance at his CV, well it just doesn't sit well. If you're trying to make a valid point about someone elses questionable morals it doesn't help if you're secretly provoking them on the side, not unless you make it clear that's what you're attempting to all concerned from the outset (including Waterstones, the BBC, Green himself). It's like watching Steve Irwin sit on a crocodile and then stand back in false alarm when it lunges for him. Rather more elegant is the Louis Theroux approach of simply acting as a dispassionate observer and giving the subject enough rope to hang themselves with. Louis Theroux is never caught making rude remarks about Westborough Baptist Church, his well reasoned points were put across quite diplomatically, but he had a far better strike rate in shining the spotlight on their bigotry, because he didn't resort to overt manipulation of the subject. He didn't put the placards in their hands and say "By the way, did you know there's a funeral happening over there today, stupid?", he merely highlighted that's what they do, and showed the funeral they had attempted to picket. While you didn't precisely tell Green to do what he did, there was an element of manipulation there with which Green was only too happy to oblige. Patrick – Thanks for the swift reply. I too welcome this debate. OK perhaps you weren't playing the victim card and you see yourself as "Agent Provocateur". That's fine. I don't mind you rattling Stephen Green's cage in principle, it's a cage that deserves a good rattle.
The credibility gap comes when you go on Welsh TV claiming that he's infringing your freedom of speech when you must have expected him to do just that when you sent him the letter (or was it an e-mail) in conjunction with a book launch. You can see how I wouldn't need to be the most cynical person in the world to link 'Booklaunch' and 'giant calculated publicity stunt' together in my head, and regretably I'm not the only one that made the connection. If you'd attacked Green in any other context, it would stand by itself as an attack on a vile fundamentalist bigot. But to try to make bigger claims about free speech in the full knowledge that you must've known what he'd do when you posted the letter, just by the most cursory glance at his CV, well it just doesn't sit well. If you're trying to make a valid point about someone elses questionable morals it doesn't help if you're secretly provoking them on the side, not unless you make it clear that's what you're attempting to all concerned from the outset (including Waterstones, the BBC, Green himself).
It's like watching Steve Irwin sit on a crocodile and then stand back in false alarm when it lunges for him.
Rather more elegant is the Louis Theroux approach of simply acting as a dispassionate observer and giving the subject enough rope to hang themselves with. Louis Theroux is never caught making rude remarks about Westborough Baptist Church, his well reasoned points were put across quite diplomatically, but he had a far better strike rate in shining the spotlight on their bigotry, because he didn't resort to overt manipulation of the subject.
He didn't put the placards in their hands and say "By the way, did you know there's a funeral happening over there today, stupid?", he merely highlighted that's what they do, and showed the funeral they had attempted to picket. While you didn't precisely tell Green to do what he did, there was an element of manipulation there with which Green was only too happy to oblige.

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38191 patrick jones Tue, 18 Nov 2008 12:20:01 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38191 so does that mean from now on anyone can claim provocation from any medium and then go about doing whatever they wish- surely that is abhorrent to most of us- i did not claim to be a victim i said - this is wrong and can happen to anyone no matter how one party hears of the art in question- if the piss christ artist invites stephen green along to an exhibition then is he culpable for provocation? unless we stand up to these bigots and bullies then they will continue- and words are my weapon and i choose to do whatever i want with them as you can but no matter how he heard about it- it was his actions his bullying and threatening tactics led to the launch- no other group complained- he is till doing it to al lthe venues i am reading at- i have had emails from people saying i am anti christian- no i am anti religion and there are many poems that reflect this and take on islam, the jewish religion and others- why not have a debate? where is the role of the agent provocateur in today;s society- i am surprised so many so called radicals are missing the point- the book is out, the launch never happened Cv still attack close down readings- who is next- and again i am not a gay man but stand up for anyone who is threatened by such a bigoted bully-i was bullied for 10 years in school and will not tolerate such acts and am doing my own little bit to speak that is all in my own tongue poetry and however that is heard my choice and so why not do that yourself- why not let people know about an event? surely they have the right to know- but surely they should not have the power to do what they did- stephen green is beign exposed for what he is why not join that debate- it is a book of poems that covers many different issues and my own struggle- again i emailed many different organisation unsympathetic to my work- havent you ever heard of the surrealists dada ginsberg punk's ethos and spirit- spread the word of joy love freedom soul questions peace- why not - if other people choose to destroy then we should be asking THEM why not the author- i welcome this debate patrick jones THEY they; twist your face until it offends you a disfigured appraisal that fills their holes the thoughts of suicide that keep you alive lead to a much mauled mirror maze of insecured paths that lead nowhere but they, under the gawp gaze of cloned masculinity stay stay stay as indelible scars make invisible fists, that still fight the thin air they, left, left so does that mean from now on anyone can claim provocation from any medium and then go about doing whatever they wish- surely that is abhorrent to most of us- i did not claim to be a victim i said – this is wrong and can happen to anyone no matter how one party hears of the art in question- if the piss christ artist invites stephen green along to an exhibition then is he culpable for provocation? unless we stand up to these bigots and bullies then they will continue- and words are my weapon and i choose to do whatever i want with them as you can but no matter how he heard about it- it was his actions his bullying and threatening tactics led to the launch- no other group complained- he is till doing it to al lthe venues i am reading at- i have had emails from people saying i am anti christian- no i am anti religion and there are many poems that reflect this and take on islam, the jewish religion and others- why not have a debate? where is the role of the agent provocateur in today;s society- i am surprised so many so called radicals are missing the point- the book is out, the launch never happened Cv still attack close down readings- who is next- and again i am not a gay man but stand up for anyone who is threatened by such a bigoted bully-i was bullied for 10 years in school and will not tolerate such acts and am doing my own little bit to speak that is all in my own tongue poetry and however that is heard my choice and so why not do that yourself- why not let people know about an event? surely they have the right to know- but surely they should not have the power to do what they did- stephen green is beign exposed for what he is why not join that debate- it is a book of poems that covers many different issues and my own struggle- again i emailed many different organisation unsympathetic to my work- havent you ever heard of the surrealists dada ginsberg punk's ethos and spirit- spread the word of joy love freedom soul questions peace- why not – if other people choose to destroy then we should be asking THEM why not the author-

i welcome this debate

patrick jones

THEY

they;

twist your face
until it offends you

a disfigured appraisal
that fills their holes

the thoughts of suicide
that keep you alive
lead to
a much mauled mirror maze
of insecured paths
that lead nowhere
but they,

under the gawp gaze of cloned masculinity
stay stay stay
as
indelible scars
make
invisible fists,

that still

fight the thin air

they,

left,

left

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38190 flapjack Tue, 18 Nov 2008 11:48:14 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38190 Patrick - good to get your perspective on events. However, RichardDawkins.net is not known for being sympathetic to the fundamentalist cause, in fact quite the reverse. Normally they like to check the reports from as many sources as possible before jumping to conclusions and after a sometimes heated debate, the concensus on the 5th page of the debate was that you'd deliberately rattled Green's cage with a thinly veiled insult to his intelligence in full expectation of a boycott. The relevant web address is: http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,3331,Christian-group-halts-book-launch,BBC,page5#comments I draw your attention to this post, maintaining that you posted this on MySpace: hi- i am waging a word war with an evil organsiation called- christian voice led by the ever so saintly and ever so bigotted stephen green they truly are a frightening group of people- hating all who do not share their belief in the invisible man in the sky- anyway in my new book i have quite a few anti religious works that aim to cause dialogi=ue and debate from certain religious quarters andi want to flush these christian voice people out of their pews- so have a read of the article below and check out their site www. christianvoice. org. uk and i was wodnering if we coudl play a little trick- would anyone be willing to email them warning of my impending book and poetry reading in cardiff and how it contains anti religious poems and i criticise stephen green and that they shoudl do soemthing about it- if we al lwrite and attack them theyll close down and hide but if we are a little subtle we can get them out and expose them for what they are- email is info@christianvoice.org.uk thanks fellow free thinkers patrick.. x Now if that was the case, it's a tad disingenuous to maintain your status as an innocent bystander caught up in another Stephen Green hate campaign. For sure the guy's a jerk and no-one here has anything good to say about him, but as I said before assuming these reports weren't made up, you can't provoke him to come to your booklaunch with deliberate intent and then play the victim card when he does his inevitable boycott. Hate to say it mate, but if you were behind this you just gave Stephen Green a whole bunch of new ammunition (he'll tell everyone that you orchestrated this, and you won't have a leg to stand on)plus the moral highground (and we all know how much he likes that). It would have been far better just to wait for him to boycott your work of his own accord without a 'red rag to a bull'-ish letter or e-mail and then if he decided to do so you'd have a legitimate free speech issue. Bigots like Green don't need prompting to look like bigoted assholes, they can do that all by themselves and when they do you can picket them AND maintain the moral highground. I wish you well with your poems, but try to be a bit more careful what you do about the press release, as it harms our credibility too. Patrick – good to get your perspective on events. However, RichardDawkins.net is not known for being sympathetic to the fundamentalist cause, in fact quite the reverse. Normally they like to check the reports from as many sources as possible before jumping to conclusions and after a sometimes heated debate, the concensus on the 5th page of the debate was that you'd deliberately rattled Green's cage with a thinly veiled insult to his intelligence in full expectation of a boycott.
The relevant web address is:

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,3331,Christian-group-halts-book-launch,BBC,page5#comments

I draw your attention to this post, maintaining that you posted this on MySpace:

hi- i am waging a word war with an evil organsiation called- christian voice led by the ever so saintly and ever so bigotted stephen green
they truly are a frightening group of people- hating all who do not share their belief in the invisible man in the sky-

anyway in my new book i have quite a few anti religious works that aim to cause dialogi=ue and debate from certain religious quarters andi want to flush these christian voice people out of their pews- so have a read of the article below and check out their site
www. christianvoice. org. uk

and i was wodnering if we coudl play a little trick- would anyone be willing to email them warning of my impending book and poetry reading in cardiff and how it contains anti religious poems and i criticise stephen green and that they shoudl do soemthing about it-

if we al lwrite and attack them theyll close down and hide but if we are a little subtle we can get them out and expose them for what they are-

email is

@christianvoice.org.uk">info@christianvoice.org.uk

thanks fellow free thinkers

patrick..
x

Now if that was the case, it's a tad disingenuous to maintain your status as an innocent bystander caught up in another Stephen Green hate campaign. For sure the guy's a jerk and no-one here has anything good to say about him, but as I said before assuming these reports weren't made up, you can't provoke him to come to your booklaunch with deliberate intent and then play the victim card when he does his inevitable boycott.
Hate to say it mate, but if you were behind this you just gave Stephen Green a whole bunch of new ammunition (he'll tell everyone that you orchestrated this, and you won't have a leg to stand on)plus the moral highground (and we all know how much he likes that).
It would have been far better just to wait for him to boycott your work of his own accord without a 'red rag to a bull'-ish letter or e-mail and then if he decided to do so you'd have a legitimate free speech issue. Bigots like Green don't need prompting to look like bigoted assholes, they can do that all by themselves and when they do you can picket them AND maintain the moral highground.
I wish you well with your poems, but try to be a bit more careful what you do about the press release, as it harms our credibility too.

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38173 patrick jones Tue, 18 Nov 2008 00:41:48 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38173 i didn't orchestrate a boycott- is letting him know about a reading now deemed provocation? i feel the real issue is being forgotten- i didn't claim to be a victim just that green made waterstones cancel my reading- 5 hours before it was due to host it?- how can you orchestrate something with an email- that was sent to other places on the 2nd nov-- i am a writer i aim to challenge- the poems are what provoked him as is being gay as is inviting an atheist poet to read his poems- we need to show him up for what he is- who is doing it? - again, keep up the debate- maybe read the poems then decide- my soul is in that book!! MAN KIND (for waris dirie) eyelids down drenched in righteuousness spitting venom upon innocent skin sworn to secrecy steeped in indignity parading as, cultural identity, stapled sexuality an egotist’s litany controlling lives with rusted knives stitched virginity with thorns of masculinity the mouth clings to memory as blood in dirt an indelible history drowned in theocracy even diamonds slip to insignificance as the price of purity rises as does the perpetual misery be it religion or cultural that shape the fear of the clitoral all are evil and genocidal eyelids open drenched in morality spit reason upon decrepid ritual i didn't orchestrate a boycott- is letting him know about a reading now deemed provocation? i feel the real issue is being forgotten- i didn't claim to be a victim just that green made waterstones cancel my reading- 5 hours before it was due to host it?- how can you orchestrate something with an email- that was sent to other places on the 2nd nov– i am a writer i aim to challenge- the poems are what provoked him as is being gay as is inviting an atheist poet to read his poems- we need to show him up for what he is- who is doing it? -
again, keep up the debate- maybe read the poems then decide- my soul is in that book!!

MAN KIND
(for waris dirie)

eyelids down
drenched in righteuousness
spitting venom upon innocent skin

sworn
to secrecy
steeped in indignity
parading as,
cultural identity,

stapled sexuality
an egotist’s litany
controlling lives
with rusted knives

stitched virginity
with thorns of masculinity

the mouth clings to memory
as blood in dirt
an indelible history
drowned in theocracy

even diamonds slip to insignificance
as the price of purity
rises as does
the perpetual misery

be it religion or cultural
that shape the fear of the clitoral
all are evil and genocidal

eyelids open
drenched in morality
spit reason
upon decrepid ritual

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]]> By: patrick jones http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38171 patrick jones Mon, 17 Nov 2008 23:42:46 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38171 i just feel i need to clarify my position here asi feel the real issue is being lost- waterstones sent a press release blaming myself- i sent an email to cv and muslim parliament, the army, on 2nd nov three poems and short note - it is something i do- no big agenda and i certainyl did not think cv would threaten waterstones ( they were the only group that did) and then waterstones submit- never- it is jsut the way i work- i once sent a poem to combat 18's forum that challenged their view of asylum seekers- i do a lot of writing projects with various communitites and individuals and certain poems grow out of that work-- bit naive maybe- i know- anyway then it al lwent out of control- i do not feel my emails caused the reaction- i get emails al lthe time jehovah's call on my door fuck you only have to be gay or piss the wrong way and green is provoked- the book contains poems about my struggle to leave a violent female partner it challenges the uk's war on terror it attacks militant muslim organisations, a poem about israeli actions against qana- another- mankind that tlaks of how we should deal with the cultural and islamic practice of female genital mutilation- i hav put so much effort into the book- ok maybe it wasnt the best way forward - i m sorry but please do not green walk away from this the injured party- i did nto expect this i want the book reading to go ahead- green and cv have threatened al lthe places i have read and will read my poems at but they will not submit- does anyone want to know about that- is there a press release detailing that- i started this in defence of homosexuality and green's attitude angered me so please show some support as i want to debate with green show him up for what he is- thank you for listening- be safe patrick jones x i just feel i need to clarify my position here asi feel the real issue is being lost- waterstones sent a press release blaming myself- i sent an email to cv and muslim parliament, the army, on 2nd nov three poems and short note – it is something i do- no big agenda and i certainyl did not think cv would threaten waterstones ( they were the only group that did) and then waterstones submit- never- it is jsut the way i work- i once sent a poem to combat 18's forum that challenged their view of asylum seekers- i do a lot of writing projects with various communitites and individuals and certain poems grow out of that work– bit naive maybe- i know- anyway then it al lwent out of control- i do not feel my emails caused the reaction- i get emails al lthe time jehovah's call on my door fuck you only have to be gay or piss the wrong way and green is provoked- the book contains poems about my struggle to leave a violent female partner it challenges the uk's war on terror it attacks militant muslim organisations, a poem about israeli actions against qana- another- mankind that tlaks of how we should deal with the cultural and islamic practice of female genital mutilation- i hav put so much effort into the book- ok maybe it wasnt the best way forward – i m sorry but please do not green walk away from this the injured party- i did nto expect this i want the book reading to go ahead- green and cv have threatened al lthe places i have read and will read my poems at but they will not submit- does anyone want to know about that- is there a press release detailing that- i started this in defence of homosexuality and green's attitude angered me so please show some support as i want to debate with green show him up for what he is-

thank you for listening- be safe

patrick jones
x

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38127 flapjack Sun, 16 Nov 2008 11:56:11 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38127 I agree with Abi that Stephen Green is worth boycotting, but given the background to Patrick Jones's case, I wouldn't attempt to make political mileage out of this as it's likely to undermine our credibility and backfire badly. Wait until Green finds another homophobic cause, it's only a matter of time. That's what annoys me about Patrick Jones, there's so much about Stephen Green you could legitimately complain about, why orchestrate a boycott under false pretenses that you're the victim? The only possible reason is publicity for a book no-one would have noticed otherwise... As for boycotting the Bible, though I'm an atheist, pragmatically that would only help Stephen Green's attempts to label us all as loony militants. I prefer to simply point out how patchy and inconsistant it is, and take a highlighter pen to the book of Leviticus. Some things don't need to be mocked, merely repeated. I agree with Abi that Stephen Green is worth boycotting, but given the background to Patrick Jones's case, I wouldn't attempt to make political mileage out of this as it's likely to undermine our credibility and backfire badly. Wait until Green finds another homophobic cause, it's only a matter of time.
That's what annoys me about Patrick Jones, there's so much about Stephen Green you could legitimately complain about, why orchestrate a boycott under false pretenses that you're the victim? The only possible reason is publicity for a book no-one would have noticed otherwise…
As for boycotting the Bible, though I'm an atheist, pragmatically that would only help Stephen Green's attempts to label us all as loony militants. I prefer to simply point out how patchy and inconsistant it is, and take a highlighter pen to the book of Leviticus. Some things don't need to be mocked, merely repeated.

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]]> By: Abi Chrisopher http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38119 Abi Chrisopher Sun, 16 Nov 2008 04:35:28 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38119 We should be taking the fight to Stephen Green and protesting his work place and home. Green feels these are legitimate targets for attacks on others. So why not use his own tactics on him. Maybe we should be also protesting the sale of the object of oppression sold in all Waterstones stores mainly the Bible. We should be taking the fight to Stephen Green and protesting his work place and home. Green feels these are legitimate targets for attacks on others. So why not use his own tactics on him.

Maybe we should be also protesting the sale of the object of oppression sold in all Waterstones stores mainly the Bible.

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]]> By: Rosie Gardener http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38103 Rosie Gardener Sat, 15 Nov 2008 17:11:28 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38103 Has anyone heard of the Angels from America, as we should do the same with Stephen Green and stop him from speaking, he seems not to like freedome of speach then lets play his angels against him, any one know how to make Angel outfits so that we can seround him and stop him from speaking, It worked for the Matthew Sheppard case come on UK lets get working against this threat to freedom of speach lets stop him. Has anyone heard of the Angels from America, as we should do the same with Stephen Green and stop him from speaking, he seems not to like freedome of speach then lets play his angels against him, any one know how to make Angel outfits so that we can seround him and stop him from speaking, It worked for the Matthew Sheppard case come on UK lets get working against this threat to freedom of speach lets stop him.

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38099 flapjack Sat, 15 Nov 2008 13:01:06 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38099 Actually, having checked the message board on Richard Dawkins' website, my position on this has shifted slightly. It appears that prior to the publication and book reading, the author directly contacted Stephen Green with a letter including provocative 'edited highlights' of his book combined with a thinly veiled jibe at Green's intelligence and notification of the forthcoming launch, which given Green's track record could only have been intended to provoke a deliberate shitstorm. While I still have no respect for Stephen Green whatsoever, on this occasion Patrick Jones appears to be engaged in a cynical attempt to raise the profile of his book by stirring up needless controversy and giving Stephen Green another excuse to shoot his mouth off in public, which frankly doesn't benefit anyone. Under the circumstances, I think Waterstones were within their rights to cancel the reading, as the protest was knowingly engineered by the author as a cynical publicity stunt. Hate to say it, but Jones provoked Green on this occasion and lost the moral highground because of that. Actually, having checked the message board on Richard Dawkins' website, my position on this has shifted slightly.
It appears that prior to the publication and book reading, the author directly contacted Stephen Green with a letter including provocative 'edited highlights' of his book combined with a thinly veiled jibe at Green's intelligence and notification of the forthcoming launch, which given Green's track record could only have been intended to provoke a deliberate shitstorm.
While I still have no respect for Stephen Green whatsoever, on this occasion Patrick Jones appears to be engaged in a cynical attempt to raise the profile of his book by stirring up needless controversy and giving Stephen Green another excuse to shoot his mouth off in public, which frankly doesn't benefit anyone. Under the circumstances, I think Waterstones were within their rights to cancel the reading, as the protest was knowingly engineered by the author as a cynical publicity stunt.
Hate to say it, but Jones provoked Green on this occasion and lost the moral highground because of that.

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]]> By: flapjack http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38089 flapjack Sat, 15 Nov 2008 01:36:45 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38089 I still say take this fight directly to Stephen Green and see how he likes a taste of his own medicine. This vile bigot appears to be made of teflon, barring that one well guided birddropping, which he misconstrued as a message from god not to give interviews (strange how he forgot said lesson). It's time we all upped the ante. I still say take this fight directly to Stephen Green and see how he likes a taste of his own medicine. This vile bigot appears to be made of teflon, barring that one well guided birddropping, which he misconstrued as a message from god not to give interviews (strange how he forgot said lesson). It's time we all upped the ante.

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]]> By: Treacle http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-9573.html/comment-page-1/#comment-38080 Treacle Fri, 14 Nov 2008 20:45:31 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/?p=9573#comment-38080 I don't blame Waterstone's at all and think everyone is exagerating their part in this. Do not forget that they are stocking the book and were about to hold the event. We don't know the full store here, but by pulling out at the last minute they at least stopped Stephen Green a soap box opportunity while they continue to stock Patrick Jones' book. It's maybe a shame that the event didn't take place, but at least Jones and his work were protected from another publicity hikack by Christian Voice. In the circumstances, I think the bookshop made the right move. The book is still on sale, they support Gay and Lesbian writing and their actions stopped someone from having a direct negative impact on anothers publicity. I think Mr Johnson faced a difficult situation and has made the best of a situation that none of us would want to face. I don't blame Waterstone's at all and think everyone is exagerating their part in this. Do not forget that they are stocking the book and were about to hold the event. We don't know the full store here, but by pulling out at the last minute they at least stopped Stephen Green a soap box opportunity while they continue to stock Patrick Jones' book.
It's maybe a shame that the event didn't take place, but at least Jones and his work were protected from another publicity hikack by Christian Voice. In the circumstances, I think the bookshop made the right move. The book is still on sale, they support Gay and Lesbian writing and their actions stopped someone from having a direct negative impact on anothers publicity. I think Mr Johnson faced a difficult situation and has made the best of a situation that none of us would want to face.

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