Comments on: God Hates Fags fanatics may picket Ledger funeral http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/ PinkNews.co.uk Gay News (UK and world) from Pink News - all the gay news for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community in the UK and beyond- thegaynews from Pink News Wed, 25 Nov 2009 18:53:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: OMAR KUDDUS http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26839 OMAR KUDDUS Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:35:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26839 Robert, the government here and in Ireland has lost their defence and argument long ago, and you are absolutely correct in your analyse of what needs to be done to achieve equality, and what I have been yelling on deaf ears for some time.One of the reasons is that to achieve equality, marriage and civil partnership has to be on offer to everyone irrespective of their sexual orientation.South Africa realised this from the start, as it in itself is a form of Apartide (meaning apartness in Afrikaans) and thus discriminatory.Though, I respect the individuals rights to their religion, in this day and age, with multi faiths and those without, it can no longer play a part in politics and the laws of the land, as if it does, it shall and does, commit and produce discrimination.The excuses of children, morality and religion have long since expired and all it shall take to change this situation, is for someone to stand forth and be counted and show the error of the system as it is and demand that equality is restored, as is ones right under principle and the laws governing this country.For believe me, if this has not been changed, by the time I am allowed to marry, I shall be in front of the queue, yelling for my rights, and achieving this goal. Robert, the government here and in Ireland has lost their defence and argument long ago, and you are absolutely correct in your analyse of what needs to be done to achieve equality, and what I have been yelling on deaf ears for some time.One of the reasons is that to achieve equality, marriage and civil partnership has to be on offer to everyone irrespective of their sexual orientation.South Africa realised this from the start, as it in itself is a form of Apartide (meaning apartness in Afrikaans) and thus discriminatory.Though, I respect the individuals rights to their religion, in this day and age, with multi faiths and those without, it can no longer play a part in politics and the laws of the land, as if it does, it shall and does, commit and produce discrimination.The excuses of children, morality and religion have long since expired and all it shall take to change this situation, is for someone to stand forth and be counted and show the error of the system as it is and demand that equality is restored, as is ones right under principle and the laws governing this country.For believe me, if this has not been changed, by the time I am allowed to marry, I shall be in front of the queue, yelling for my rights, and achieving this goal.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26840 Robert, ex-pat Brit Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:42:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26840 Omar, in the interests of full equality, the UK government should and must offer civil partnerships to everyone, especially for straight couples who would rather not marry and for same sex straight siblings or relatives who cohabit together. Similarly, everyone should and must have the right to marry as they do in South Africa. That would be true equality. People should have the right to choose and let us not forget that marriage is also an civil issue and its sole purpose is NOT for the procreation of children either, its about love and commitment first, children are secondary and a choice. If right wing christian bigots and others insist that children are the reason for marriage, then why aren't they going after straight married couples who can't have children or choose not to, or people beyond child-bearing age, or better yet, why aren't they calling for them to be prohibited from marrying? As I said in a previous, there is NO foundation any longer to say who can and who cannot marry. The bigots can't have it both ways. They've lost the moral argument and so has government. Omar, in the interests of full equality, the UK government should and must offer civil partnerships to everyone, especially for straight couples who would rather not marry and for same sex straight siblings or relatives who cohabit together. Similarly, everyone should and must have the right to marry as they do in South Africa. That would be true equality. People should have the right to choose and let us not forget that marriage is also an civil issue and its sole purpose is NOT for the procreation of children either, its about love and commitment first, children are secondary and a choice. If right wing christian bigots and others insist that children are the reason for marriage, then why aren't they going after straight married couples who can't have children or choose not to, or people beyond child-bearing age, or better yet, why aren't they calling for them to be prohibited from marrying? As I said in a previous, there is NO foundation any longer to say who can and who cannot marry. The bigots can't have it both ways. They've lost the moral argument and so has government.

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]]> By: OMAR KUDDUS http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26841 OMAR KUDDUS Sun, 27 Jan 2008 15:01:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26841 Robert, you are absolutely correct to say that the argument against marriage equality is without foundation and principally based on Religion and Beliefs, and thus why it Can and Shall be challenged in law, by some individual, soon (believe me if I was able to marry my partner (which shall hopefully happen soon) I would have brought this case up long ago), as the law allows one to challenge this clear discrimination under various article and presidents.I feel, that one way forward, would be to offer everyone one the choice of either marriage or civil partnership, and thus if both heterosexual and homosexual couples had the choice, then there would be no discrimination, especially as not all of both sides of the fence want to “marry” but would rather chose a civil union. William I hope that Ireland follows this rout, and with so may EU countries now allowing “ marriage” it is inevitable that this shall happen, as some one can demand it, again under EU law, as it formulates discrimination, and goes against principal.In regards to Irelands refusal, and the children issues raised, The United States-based Institute for Marriage and Public Policy commented on the Irish court decision, saying:'Of particular interest may be the court's discussion about the evidence purporting to show no difference between children raised by same-sex couples and those raised by married couples. The judge accepted testimony about the methodological shortcomings of available evidence and said: "It also seems to me having regard to the criticism of the methodology used in the majority of the studies conducted to date that until such time as there are more longitudinal studies involving much larger samples that it will be difficult to reach firm conclusions on this topic."' 'The court concluded that the Irish Constitution's explicit reference to a constitutional right of opposite-sex couples to marry justified the legal distinction between same- and opposite-sex couples in the marriage law. The court further noted, however, that the marriage law was further justified by concerns with the 'welfare of children' since in the absence of good research, 'the State is entitled to adopt a cautious approach to changing the capacity to marry.'". Robert, you are absolutely correct to say that the argument against marriage equality is without foundation and principally based on Religion and Beliefs, and thus why it Can and Shall be challenged in law, by some individual, soon (believe me if I was able to marry my partner (which shall hopefully happen soon) I would have brought this case up long ago), as the law allows one to challenge this clear discrimination under various article and presidents.I feel, that one way forward, would be to offer everyone one the choice of either marriage or civil partnership, and thus if both heterosexual and homosexual couples had the choice, then there would be no discrimination, especially as not all of both sides of the fence want to “marry” but would rather chose a civil union. William I hope that Ireland follows this rout, and with so may EU countries now allowing “ marriage” it is inevitable that this shall happen, as some one can demand it, again under EU law, as it formulates discrimination, and goes against principal.In regards to Irelands refusal, and the children issues raised, The United States-based Institute for Marriage and Public Policy commented on the Irish court decision, saying:'Of particular interest may be the court's discussion about the evidence purporting to show no difference between children raised by same-sex couples and those raised by married couples. The judge accepted testimony about the methodological shortcomings of available evidence and said: "It also seems to me having regard to the criticism of the methodology used in the majority of the studies conducted to date that until such time as there are more longitudinal studies involving much larger samples that it will be difficult to reach firm conclusions on this topic."' 'The court concluded that the Irish Constitution's explicit reference to a constitutional right of opposite-sex couples to marry justified the legal distinction between same- and opposite-sex couples in the marriage law. The court further noted, however, that the marriage law was further justified by concerns with the 'welfare of children' since in the absence of good research, 'the State is entitled to adopt a cautious approach to changing the capacity to marry.'".

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]]> By: William - Dublin http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26842 William - Dublin Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:34:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26842 "Even if Ireland legislates for civil partnerships, it should also offer it to heterosexual couples who choose not to marry"I fully agree with that statement, Robert. I personally want civil partnership in preference to marriage for me and my partner, but I would like to see the choice. In the same vein, that choice should be extended to heterosexual couples, as I personally know many straight friends who also do not want to be married, but would prefer the partnership option on principal. Its all about choice at the end of the day, the freedom to live ones lives according to his or hers own beliefs.I am a supporter of the Green party, and while they are making some advances with environmental issue in the Republic, they, sadly, have been disturbingly quite in the issue of gay marriage/partnerships... they seem more eager to pacify the Fianna Fail majority to maintain their place in government rather than standing up for their principles. Its very disappointing for someone who voted for them based on their equality manifesto. Still, as you say, patience is the name of the game... a war is won in small battles after all. "Even if Ireland legislates for civil partnerships, it should also offer it to heterosexual couples who choose not to marry"I fully agree with that statement, Robert. I personally want civil partnership in preference to marriage for me and my partner, but I would like to see the choice. In the same vein, that choice should be extended to heterosexual couples, as I personally know many straight friends who also do not want to be married, but would prefer the partnership option on principal. Its all about choice at the end of the day, the freedom to live ones lives according to his or hers own beliefs.I am a supporter of the Green party, and while they are making some advances with environmental issue in the Republic, they, sadly, have been disturbingly quite in the issue of gay marriage/partnerships… they seem more eager to pacify the Fianna Fail majority to maintain their place in government rather than standing up for their principles. Its very disappointing for someone who voted for them based on their equality manifesto. Still, as you say, patience is the name of the game… a war is won in small battles after all.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26843 Robert, ex-pat Brit Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:29:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26843 William, am a Green too. In fact, its the only world party that endorses full marriage equality. I think as more countries offer marriage, Sweden is one that is about to do that and I daresay others in that part of Europe will follow suit, then I think consensus will eventually lead to full marriage recognition for same-sex couples. I think that is inevitable, no turning the clock back. Four out of the five already offering marriage abandoned civil unions for marriage and now Sweden looks like it will be the sixth country to do do. Even if Ireland legislates for civil partnerships, it should also offer it to heterosexual couples who choose not to marry, or siblings who live together and who don't have any protections from the draconian inheritance laws in the UK, such as the case of those two old ladies in the UK who face losing their home together should one of them predecease the other losing 40% of the sale of their house to inheritance taxes, something they could never afford to lose. Its such an unfair law to say the least and cruel. Opening civil partnerships to everyone should be the norm. Its very unfair to treat elderly people in this manner. I sincerely hope Ireland goes a bit further than we did. William, am a Green too. In fact, its the only world party that endorses full marriage equality. I think as more countries offer marriage, Sweden is one that is about to do that and I daresay others in that part of Europe will follow suit, then I think consensus will eventually lead to full marriage recognition for same-sex couples. I think that is inevitable, no turning the clock back. Four out of the five already offering marriage abandoned civil unions for marriage and now Sweden looks like it will be the sixth country to do do. Even if Ireland legislates for civil partnerships, it should also offer it to heterosexual couples who choose not to marry, or siblings who live together and who don't have any protections from the draconian inheritance laws in the UK, such as the case of those two old ladies in the UK who face losing their home together should one of them predecease the other losing 40% of the sale of their house to inheritance taxes, something they could never afford to lose. Its such an unfair law to say the least and cruel. Opening civil partnerships to everyone should be the norm. Its very unfair to treat elderly people in this manner. I sincerely hope Ireland goes a bit further than we did.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26844 Robert, ex-pat Brit Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:17:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26844 Omar, thank you. Actually, there have been conclusive studies done in the area of same-sex parenting and the results were overwhelmingly favourable, in fact some studies actually verified that many children of these couples often do a lot better than those in heterosexual parent families. It has been corroborated by many leading psychiatrists and psychologists involved with paediatrics.Having said that, I would like to ask and this is hypothetical of course, how would the same court have responded in regard to say a gay man and gay woman who had children together? The fact they are opposite sex I would presume would make them ideal parents regardless of their gay orientation. How would the same judge have weighed in on that I wonder?The argument against marriage equality as you and I know is totally without foundation. Its religion rearing its ugly head again though in veiled guises within the legal system. Omar, thank you. Actually, there have been conclusive studies done in the area of same-sex parenting and the results were overwhelmingly favourable, in fact some studies actually verified that many children of these couples often do a lot better than those in heterosexual parent families. It has been corroborated by many leading psychiatrists and psychologists involved with paediatrics.Having said that, I would like to ask and this is hypothetical of course, how would the same court have responded in regard to say a gay man and gay woman who had children together? The fact they are opposite sex I would presume would make them ideal parents regardless of their gay orientation. How would the same judge have weighed in on that I wonder?The argument against marriage equality as you and I know is totally without foundation. Its religion rearing its ugly head again though in veiled guises within the legal system.

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]]> By: William - Dublin http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26845 William - Dublin Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:46:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26845 Unfortunately, no, Robert, I wish it was the case. Our government has been ruled by Fianna Fail, and they are socially conservative at best, not to mention slightly leaning towards the catholic side of "morals" (that said they have stood up to them before, namely in the canon law fiasco a few years ago, the Fianna Fail led governmment basically told the RC that canon law has as much effect as the rules of a golf club! About time too!)It would seem that most of the population are in favour of marriage, but the constitution might be challenged (and that is still not certain), if full marriage were given to gay couples. Having said that, the outcome of the KAL Case by the Supreme Court and recent rulings by the ECHR may change that. Our constitution can only be changed by majority vote by the people, and Fianna Fail are afraid any constitutional challenge would fail, and so would a referendum to change the definition of marriage. Not very brave of them, I know, but they're not knows for radical thinking... hence why Ireland has nothing even close to the UK on gay partnership rights.I personally, don't think that is the case, I think the Irish would welcome gay marrage. Ireland is not the poor ignorant country under the hold of the RC as it was back in the 50's or even 80's.What's really needed is a braver and stronger collation government:- Labour, Fianna Gael and the Greens. Although the Greens are in government currently, they have shown no backbone for pushing the Fianna Fail party to gay marriage (Last time the Greens get my vote that's for sure!)Still, patience will give us that right and choice eventually. Its just a matter of time, and some consistent pressure. Unfortunately, no, Robert, I wish it was the case. Our government has been ruled by Fianna Fail, and they are socially conservative at best, not to mention slightly leaning towards the catholic side of "morals" (that said they have stood up to them before, namely in the canon law fiasco a few years ago, the Fianna Fail led governmment basically told the RC that canon law has as much effect as the rules of a golf club! About time too!)It would seem that most of the population are in favour of marriage, but the constitution might be challenged (and that is still not certain), if full marriage were given to gay couples. Having said that, the outcome of the KAL Case by the Supreme Court and recent rulings by the ECHR may change that. Our constitution can only be changed by majority vote by the people, and Fianna Fail are afraid any constitutional challenge would fail, and so would a referendum to change the definition of marriage. Not very brave of them, I know, but they're not knows for radical thinking… hence why Ireland has nothing even close to the UK on gay partnership rights.I personally, don't think that is the case, I think the Irish would welcome gay marrage. Ireland is not the poor ignorant country under the hold of the RC as it was back in the 50's or even 80's.What's really needed is a braver and stronger collation government:- Labour, Fianna Gael and the Greens. Although the Greens are in government currently, they have shown no backbone for pushing the Fianna Fail party to gay marriage (Last time the Greens get my vote that's for sure!)Still, patience will give us that right and choice eventually. Its just a matter of time, and some consistent pressure.

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]]> By: OMAR KUDDUS http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-2/#comment-26846 OMAR KUDDUS Sat, 26 Jan 2008 18:36:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26846 Robert, I could not agree with you more, if what William is saying is correct.My understanding being the same as yours and that the obstacle in granting marriage in Ireland being what the constitution states, that is between a man and a woman.For you are no doubt aware, that, a lesbian couple, legally married in Canada launched a landmark lawsuit seeking to win the same legal rights and financial benefits as married heterosexuals in Ireland.Their action followed a similar case in Britain, where another lesbian couple, unsuccessfully sued, to have their marriage recognized under British law. The Irish government argued that it can not accept the women's argument partly because of Ireland's conservative 1937 constitution, which commits the state "to guard with special care the institution of marriage, on which the family is founded, and to protect it against attack." Homosexuality, having been illegal in Ireland until 1993. On December 15, 2006, The Ireland High Court rejected the couple's demand to have their Canadian "marriage" recognized in Ireland, in a landmark ruling .Justice Elizabeth Dunne decided against the claim, despite their argument, that the State and the Revenue Commissioners had violated their constitutional rights by refusing to assess them for taxes as a married couple. Justice Dunne wrote in her lengthy ruling, "Marriage was understood under the 1937 Constitution to be confined to persons of the opposite sex," "Having regard to the clear understanding of the meaning of marriage as set out in the numerous authorities opened to the Court from this jurisdiction and elsewhere, I do not see how marriage can be redefined by the Court to encompass same sex marriage."Justice Dunne rejected the couple's argument that international acceptance of homosexual 'marriage' was reason enough for re-evaluation of Irish law."The Plaintiffs referred frequently in the course of this case to the 'changing consensus' but I have to say the [sic] there is little evidence of that," "The consensus around the world does not support a widespread move towards same sex marriage. There has been some limited support for the concept of same sex marriage as in Canada, Massachusetts and South Africa together with…three European countries…but, in truth, it is difficult to see that as a consensus, changing or otherwise."In her 138-page ruling, Justice Dunne expressed concern about the effect of same-sex marriage on children, saying the lack of conclusive research into the results of homosexual parenting made it necessary to reserve judgment on the issue."[T]here is simply not enough evidence from the research done to date that could allow firm conclusions to be drawn as to the consequences of same sex marriage particularly in the area of the welfare of children."Justice Dunne said the decision to grant legal recognition to same-sex couples apart from marriage should be up to the legislature, not the courts Robert, I could not agree with you more, if what William is saying is correct.My understanding being the same as yours and that the obstacle in granting marriage in Ireland being what the constitution states, that is between a man and a woman.For you are no doubt aware, that, a lesbian couple, legally married in Canada launched a landmark lawsuit seeking to win the same legal rights and financial benefits as married heterosexuals in Ireland.Their action followed a similar case in Britain, where another lesbian couple, unsuccessfully sued, to have their marriage recognized under British law. The Irish government argued that it can not accept the women's argument partly because of Ireland's conservative 1937 constitution, which commits the state "to guard with special care the institution of marriage, on which the family is founded, and to protect it against attack." Homosexuality, having been illegal in Ireland until 1993. On December 15, 2006, The Ireland High Court rejected the couple's demand to have their Canadian "marriage" recognized in Ireland, in a landmark ruling .Justice Elizabeth Dunne decided against the claim, despite their argument, that the State and the Revenue Commissioners had violated their constitutional rights by refusing to assess them for taxes as a married couple. Justice Dunne wrote in her lengthy ruling, "Marriage was understood under the 1937 Constitution to be confined to persons of the opposite sex," "Having regard to the clear understanding of the meaning of marriage as set out in the numerous authorities opened to the Court from this jurisdiction and elsewhere, I do not see how marriage can be redefined by the Court to encompass same sex marriage."Justice Dunne rejected the couple's argument that international acceptance of homosexual 'marriage' was reason enough for re-evaluation of Irish law."The Plaintiffs referred frequently in the course of this case to the 'changing consensus' but I have to say the [sic] there is little evidence of that," "The consensus around the world does not support a widespread move towards same sex marriage. There has been some limited support for the concept of same sex marriage as in Canada, Massachusetts and South Africa together with…three European countries…but, in truth, it is difficult to see that as a consensus, changing or otherwise."In her 138-page ruling, Justice Dunne expressed concern about the effect of same-sex marriage on children, saying the lack of conclusive research into the results of homosexual parenting made it necessary to reserve judgment on the issue."[T]here is simply not enough evidence from the research done to date that could allow firm conclusions to be drawn as to the consequences of same sex marriage particularly in the area of the welfare of children."Justice Dunne said the decision to grant legal recognition to same-sex couples apart from marriage should be up to the legislature, not the courts

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26847 Robert, ex-pat Brit Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:55:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26847 William, that 73% voted in an online poll in support of same-sex marriage equality in Ireland, if that is the correct percentile, then why would Ahern pursue civil partnerships? From what I know, the Irish constitution states that institution of marriage must be preserverd (between a man and a woman), or am I wrong? Given that recent poll, is his coalition now going to change in favour of full marriage equality? That would be marvellous if he did. William, that 73% voted in an online poll in support of same-sex marriage equality in Ireland, if that is the correct percentile, then why would Ahern pursue civil partnerships? From what I know, the Irish constitution states that institution of marriage must be preserverd (between a man and a woman), or am I wrong? Given that recent poll, is his coalition now going to change in favour of full marriage equality? That would be marvellous if he did.

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]]> By: William - Dublin http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26848 William - Dublin Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:48:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26848 "critical of catholic bigotry against samesex marriage in Ireland."Here we go again. Another pack of lies and twisted truths from someone who thinks all the English are "imperial pigs". Jaysus, this is getting tiresome.Bill, when you get off your arse and bother to visit Ireland, then I'll let you speak like you know what you're talking about. In actual fact, the RC opposition to gay marriage in Ireland is almost irrelevant. As seen in a recent on line poll at the Irish Times, 73% voted in favour of the state supporting gay marriage.In Ireland its democracy that speaks, no longer the Catholic Church.As for my supposed attacks on Shawn, more of your lies Bill? I think so. "critical of catholic bigotry against samesex marriage in Ireland."Here we go again. Another pack of lies and twisted truths from someone who thinks all the English are "imperial pigs". Jaysus, this is getting tiresome.Bill, when you get off your arse and bother to visit Ireland, then I'll let you speak like you know what you're talking about. In actual fact, the RC opposition to gay marriage in Ireland is almost irrelevant. As seen in a recent on line poll at the Irish Times, 73% voted in favour of the state supporting gay marriage.In Ireland its democracy that speaks, no longer the Catholic Church.As for my supposed attacks on Shawn, more of your lies Bill? I think so.

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]]> By: Terry http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26849 Terry Sat, 26 Jan 2008 16:31:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26849 Great post there Bill, mate. Just when everyone agrees that they all have a common goal, you go and do the opposite by going at them again with a hammer. Well done, mate, you must be a shining example of single minded prejudice. Great post there Bill, mate. Just when everyone agrees that they all have a common goal, you go and do the opposite by going at them again with a hammer. Well done, mate, you must be a shining example of single minded prejudice.

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]]> By: Omar Kuddus http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26850 Omar Kuddus Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:19:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26850 Ps. can anyone please tell me if they are having problems with logging into Yahoo, UK too? Ps. can anyone please tell me if they are having problems with logging into Yahoo, UK too?

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]]> By: Omar Kuddus http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26851 Omar Kuddus Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:17:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26851 We are all meant to be mature adults here, trying to view our personnel points of views on the topic at hand.But recently have noted that we seem to be going off on a tangent and far from the subject in hand, (in this case the vile despicable hatemonger, which we are meant to appose), and we seem to be doing his job for him.I realise that everyone does not like everyone (I myself have made it clear whom I will not respond to) but by getting at each other and “bitching” and “getting ones claws out” it does not help and just reverts back to the same old arguments. So why don’t we all take it as read who does not like each other and what we think of them and their opinions.The fight is meant to be for equality and acceptance, but apparently it seems that we cannot even accept our own, as they have different opinions or beliefs. In that we forget what units us, and that in the end, we do carry something in common, our sexuality.Being gay does not mean we are all the same, stereotyped, as the heterosexual community would like to view us as. Ours is a diverse culture, with lots of subcultures that in themselves, provide and give rise to different opinions and needs.Lets not forget that the real enemy is out there and not here (hopefully under false pretences), and despite everyone’s opinions or beliefs, we all want the same thing, broadly speaking , in the end.Acceptance and Equality, without the threat of, Homophobia or Discrimination from the rest of society.I hope that no one takes offend to this, but look at all the recent posts and it has become like a broken record.I doubt that all will kiss and make up, but please can we keep focused on the subject on hand.I believe you are genuinely decent folk who all want the same thing, in the end, so with a bit of unity and cooperation, with a bit of give and take, maybe, just achieve this.I already apologise, for I feel it is not appropriate to tell anyone how to behave or act, but then it is a matter of free speech and opinion and that folks, is what a “comment” is.And what everyone here has a fundamental right to, either granted by congress, constitution , parliament or EU law. We are all meant to be mature adults here, trying to view our personnel points of views on the topic at hand.But recently have noted that we seem to be going off on a tangent and far from the subject in hand, (in this case the vile despicable hatemonger, which we are meant to appose), and we seem to be doing his job for him.I realise that everyone does not like everyone (I myself have made it clear whom I will not respond to) but by getting at each other and “bitching” and “getting ones claws out” it does not help and just reverts back to the same old arguments. So why don’t we all take it as read who does not like each other and what we think of them and their opinions.The fight is meant to be for equality and acceptance, but apparently it seems that we cannot even accept our own, as they have different opinions or beliefs. In that we forget what units us, and that in the end, we do carry something in common, our sexuality.Being gay does not mean we are all the same, stereotyped, as the heterosexual community would like to view us as. Ours is a diverse culture, with lots of subcultures that in themselves, provide and give rise to different opinions and needs.Lets not forget that the real enemy is out there and not here (hopefully under false pretences), and despite everyone’s opinions or beliefs, we all want the same thing, broadly speaking , in the end.Acceptance and Equality, without the threat of, Homophobia or Discrimination from the rest of society.I hope that no one takes offend to this, but look at all the recent posts and it has become like a broken record.I doubt that all will kiss and make up, but please can we keep focused on the subject on hand.I believe you are genuinely decent folk who all want the same thing, in the end, so with a bit of unity and cooperation, with a bit of give and take, maybe, just achieve this.I already apologise, for I feel it is not appropriate to tell anyone how to behave or act, but then it is a matter of free speech and opinion and that folks, is what a “comment” is.And what everyone here has a fundamental right to, either granted by congress, constitution , parliament or EU law.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26852 Robert, ex-pat Brit Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:05:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26852 World of Twist, hello! You said..."It's just that with all the horrible things they are throwing at us it's not surprising that some of us just need a little outlet to vent some. that's all." You're absolutely right, its a natural reaction and its healthy. To say or do nothing is to give consent to what is being said about us, usually lies, myths and just plain hatred, most of it emanating from religious beliefs. If we allow it to go unchecked, then we're heading down a very slippery slope. None of us should take our rights for granted or become indifferent or complacent in regard to those here and abroad who do not enjoy any rights. As for straights granting us more rights, these didn't come voluntarily out of the goodness of their hearts, lets be mindful of that. They were fought for in earnest by some brave and courageous Gay men and women who demanded dialogue with their representatives in government and pressure from the EU commission to comply with certain human rights laws. There is much more to do until we have won our full and total equality. World of Twist, hello! You said…"It's just that with all the horrible things they are throwing at us it's not surprising that some of us just need a little outlet to vent some. that's all." You're absolutely right, its a natural reaction and its healthy. To say or do nothing is to give consent to what is being said about us, usually lies, myths and just plain hatred, most of it emanating from religious beliefs. If we allow it to go unchecked, then we're heading down a very slippery slope. None of us should take our rights for granted or become indifferent or complacent in regard to those here and abroad who do not enjoy any rights. As for straights granting us more rights, these didn't come voluntarily out of the goodness of their hearts, lets be mindful of that. They were fought for in earnest by some brave and courageous Gay men and women who demanded dialogue with their representatives in government and pressure from the EU commission to comply with certain human rights laws. There is much more to do until we have won our full and total equality.

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]]> By: World of Twist http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26853 World of Twist Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:57:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26853 William.Great post, I agree with you, it's thanks to straight people that Homophobia is on the wane and you are right that without their help, the civil partnerships would never had got through.I couldn't see anything racist in Bill's recent post and am not aware of anything racist he has posted prior.But then I'm kinda new around here. I certainly don't condone racist commentary in any shape or form.I have nothing against individuals who have a spiritual dimension to them (sounds like a cliche but my very best friend is devoutly religious), but I am very wary of organisations. But you are right again about them shooting themselves in the foot. They seem to be inspiring the same loathing in straight people as they do in gay.I agree also with Robert (Hell I'm agreeing with everybody tonight) let's concentrate on what unites us.It's just that with all the horrible things they are throwing at us it's not surprising that some of us just need a little outlet to vent some. that's all. William.Great post, I agree with you, it's thanks to straight people that Homophobia is on the wane and you are right that without their help, the civil partnerships would never had got through.I couldn't see anything racist in Bill's recent post and am not aware of anything racist he has posted prior.But then I'm kinda new around here. I certainly don't condone racist commentary in any shape or form.I have nothing against individuals who have a spiritual dimension to them (sounds like a cliche but my very best friend is devoutly religious), but I am very wary of organisations. But you are right again about them shooting themselves in the foot. They seem to be inspiring the same loathing in straight people as they do in gay.I agree also with Robert (Hell I'm agreeing with everybody tonight) let's concentrate on what unites us.It's just that with all the horrible things they are throwing at us it's not surprising that some of us just need a little outlet to vent some. that's all.

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]]> By: Bill Perdue http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26854 Bill Perdue Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:23:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26854 When Robert ex-pat says “… I do not fully concur with Bill's political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything” he’s restating the groundwork for all democratic discussions. Most of us come from any number of political backgrounds but can unite on a common ground of support full equality, including marriage equality and the enactment and strict enforcement of protective laws. And of course we can all, with the exception of apologists for superstition and homophobia, manage to express a healthy contempt for most christian groups because they’re gay haters and that hatred leads to discrimination, harassment and violence. The personal attacks have been vicious but so inept that they’re easily dismissed. Twisted Sister says Omar is an incompetent liar who’s sabotaging efforts to prevent the deportation of asylum seekers to killer states like Iran. Omar refuted those lies. Twisted Sister and ‘William’ say that I’m a racist and bully because I condemn the vermin who run the DUP and oppose self loathing apologists. They say that I’m successfully mounting a terrorist-blackmail campaign against EqualityCalifornia, a particularly inept lie on their part because EQCA has no such record of it or ‘Tomas’. They proved themselves liars when they rather stupidly forgot to use American colloquial spelling when scripting ‘Tomas’. Twisted Sister says that Robertexpat is a merchant of ‘death or marriage’ what ever that means. Twisted Sister and other ‘supporters’ also claim that Malcolm Lidbury has an ‘unhealthy’ interest in a young 15 year old man, and we know what that slander means, and that his opposition to police abuse is a front for his ‘bitterness’ and to make money. Shawn of Canada got the same bitter treatment from ‘William’ for being critical of catholic bigotry against samesex marriage in Ireland. Marcomilano got the treatment because he will not give an inch on the question of samesex marriage. And there have been plenty of others. The solution is to do what has to be done to limit the discussion to politics. Honest activists and analysts have plenty of very important questions to discuss and even argue about and we shouldn’t have to be bothered by these idiocies. They poison the atmosphere and worse, divert us, as they are intended to, from allowing us to inform one another about our all important struggle for equality. When Robert ex-pat says “… I do not fully concur with Bill's political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything” he’s restating the groundwork for all democratic discussions. Most of us come from any number of political backgrounds but can unite on a common ground of support full equality, including marriage equality and the enactment and strict enforcement of protective laws. And of course we can all, with the exception of apologists for superstition and homophobia, manage to express a healthy contempt for most christian groups because they’re gay haters and that hatred leads to discrimination, harassment and violence. The personal attacks have been vicious but so inept that they’re easily dismissed. Twisted Sister says Omar is an incompetent liar who’s sabotaging efforts to prevent the deportation of asylum seekers to killer states like Iran. Omar refuted those lies. Twisted Sister and ‘William’ say that I’m a racist and bully because I condemn the vermin who run the DUP and oppose self loathing apologists. They say that I’m successfully mounting a terrorist-blackmail campaign against EqualityCalifornia, a particularly inept lie on their part because EQCA has no such record of it or ‘Tomas’. They proved themselves liars when they rather stupidly forgot to use American colloquial spelling when scripting ‘Tomas’. Twisted Sister says that Robertexpat is a merchant of ‘death or marriage’ what ever that means. Twisted Sister and other ‘supporters’ also claim that Malcolm Lidbury has an ‘unhealthy’ interest in a young 15 year old man, and we know what that slander means, and that his opposition to police abuse is a front for his ‘bitterness’ and to make money. Shawn of Canada got the same bitter treatment from ‘William’ for being critical of catholic bigotry against samesex marriage in Ireland. Marcomilano got the treatment because he will not give an inch on the question of samesex marriage. And there have been plenty of others. The solution is to do what has to be done to limit the discussion to politics. Honest activists and analysts have plenty of very important questions to discuss and even argue about and we shouldn’t have to be bothered by these idiocies. They poison the atmosphere and worse, divert us, as they are intended to, from allowing us to inform one another about our all important struggle for equality.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26855 Robert, ex-pat Brit Fri, 25 Jan 2008 17:59:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26855 William, thank you. I appreciate your clarity on this and I didn't really take it personally, you are a far better person than that. Let us all concentrate on what unites us, and lets all agree to disagree on things we don't see eye to eye on. I agree, bullying tactics, no matter one's political beliefs are not the way forward. I know we are winning and the right wingers are losing, everywhere on this planet, not fast enough for most of us, but indeed they are losing the cultural war and they know it. Long may it flourish. William, thank you. I appreciate your clarity on this and I didn't really take it personally, you are a far better person than that. Let us all concentrate on what unites us, and lets all agree to disagree on things we don't see eye to eye on. I agree, bullying tactics, no matter one's political beliefs are not the way forward. I know we are winning and the right wingers are losing, everywhere on this planet, not fast enough for most of us, but indeed they are losing the cultural war and they know it. Long may it flourish.

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]]> By: William - Dublin http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26856 William - Dublin Fri, 25 Jan 2008 14:00:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26856 "William, with respect, I do not fully concur with Bill's political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything"Robert, I understand that, and I have nothing against anyone's political point of view. And, I do have one thing in common with Bill, I agree with Bill's single mindedness with respect to our equality. But I cannot condone a racist. Nor can I condone a bully. My post was not meant to be personal against you, you and I do agree on a lot, albeit from perhaps difference personal perspectives. And I respect that. I was simply pointing out that we must be careful who our allies are... lets not side with those who do more damage to our cause, no matter what their intentions may be. The road to hell being paved with them and all. And it seems I'm not the only person on this site who feels like this, many have been victim to Bill's bulling and racism, and that's just not acceptable. If we cant even respect each others nationality and opinions, we have no right to demand true equality or to hope to rise above these religious nuts.Hope this, and my last post clears up any misunderstanding here. And Omar is right, this discussion should be about that bottom feeder Phelps. "William, with respect, I do not fully concur with Bill's political views, there is much I disagree with, but not everything"Robert, I understand that, and I have nothing against anyone's political point of view. And, I do have one thing in common with Bill, I agree with Bill's single mindedness with respect to our equality. But I cannot condone a racist. Nor can I condone a bully. My post was not meant to be personal against you, you and I do agree on a lot, albeit from perhaps difference personal perspectives. And I respect that. I was simply pointing out that we must be careful who our allies are… lets not side with those who do more damage to our cause, no matter what their intentions may be. The road to hell being paved with them and all. And it seems I'm not the only person on this site who feels like this, many have been victim to Bill's bulling and racism, and that's just not acceptable. If we cant even respect each others nationality and opinions, we have no right to demand true equality or to hope to rise above these religious nuts.Hope this, and my last post clears up any misunderstanding here. And Omar is right, this discussion should be about that bottom feeder Phelps.

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]]> By: William - Dublin http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26857 William - Dublin Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:48:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26857 Apyrs, I am not arguing a point with you that I agree with. I agree that religious institutions are, and have been, one of the principal obstacles to our equality.You said you can't understand the anger towards Bill. Perhaps you haven't read his disgusting attacks on England? Or his stupid, and deeply offensive "insights" to Ireland? Please, I'm not saying he's a racist. HE'S saying that. That "anti-English" crap nearly tore my own country apart, and is still doing it in certain parts. And I am Irish, proudly so, but I am not, and will not support, an "anti-English" nonsense. Bill has never even been to England or Ireland, yet he condemns its people and culture? Ignorance and petty unfounded hate against a country and its people, simply based on a warped version of history, is simply disgusting to an educated man like myself. And in my experience, there is little difference between racism against a country and bigotry towards us gay people. I want equality... but I don't want it by becoming a bigot myself. My argument never was about defending the churches. I believe, however, that we need to change peoples point of view, not scream hate at every person that uses a cross to condemn us. They are doing their own damage, let them become a minority! If 90% of the world is straight, then we need their support. We can't do this alone, we don't have the numbers. Was it just gay people who gave the British people partnership rights? No, it was mainly straight people in government who have the foresight not to listen to the churches, and I for one would like to build on that understanding. Thats how, I believe, we will ultimately win. We stand tall, and proud, and fight ignorance with reason, fight religion with fact, and we will win at the end of the day. Already the Christians are loosing the battle, as Americans call it, the battle of "hearts and minds". Lets them keep digging their grave, and all the while we gain allies because their rants get more feverish.But I will not, and never will, suppose a racist like Bill Perdue, to further my own gains. I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding, Apyrs (and Robert and World of Twist) Apyrs, I am not arguing a point with you that I agree with. I agree that religious institutions are, and have been, one of the principal obstacles to our equality.You said you can't understand the anger towards Bill. Perhaps you haven't read his disgusting attacks on England? Or his stupid, and deeply offensive "insights" to Ireland? Please, I'm not saying he's a racist. HE'S saying that. That "anti-English" crap nearly tore my own country apart, and is still doing it in certain parts. And I am Irish, proudly so, but I am not, and will not support, an "anti-English" nonsense. Bill has never even been to England or Ireland, yet he condemns its people and culture? Ignorance and petty unfounded hate against a country and its people, simply based on a warped version of history, is simply disgusting to an educated man like myself. And in my experience, there is little difference between racism against a country and bigotry towards us gay people. I want equality… but I don't want it by becoming a bigot myself. My argument never was about defending the churches. I believe, however, that we need to change peoples point of view, not scream hate at every person that uses a cross to condemn us. They are doing their own damage, let them become a minority! If 90% of the world is straight, then we need their support. We can't do this alone, we don't have the numbers. Was it just gay people who gave the British people partnership rights? No, it was mainly straight people in government who have the foresight not to listen to the churches, and I for one would like to build on that understanding. Thats how, I believe, we will ultimately win. We stand tall, and proud, and fight ignorance with reason, fight religion with fact, and we will win at the end of the day. Already the Christians are loosing the battle, as Americans call it, the battle of "hearts and minds". Lets them keep digging their grave, and all the while we gain allies because their rants get more feverish.But I will not, and never will, suppose a racist like Bill Perdue, to further my own gains. I hope I have cleared up any misunderstanding, Apyrs (and Robert and World of Twist)

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html/comment-page-1/#comment-26858 Robert, ex-pat Brit Fri, 25 Jan 2008 13:43:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6650.html#comment-26858 apYrs, I too and some of my friends marched in the 70s and was arrested and dragged off to the Vine Street station and charged with disorderly conduct. The homophobic slurs and comments flying around during that episode at the station were unparalleled. So I know what discrimination and antigay epithets can do to one's psyche and well being. I have never forgotten it and I will always be vigilant and never take my rights for granted, let alone become complacent. They can be taken away at any given time. apYrs, I too and some of my friends marched in the 70s and was arrested and dragged off to the Vine Street station and charged with disorderly conduct. The homophobic slurs and comments flying around during that episode at the station were unparalleled. So I know what discrimination and antigay epithets can do to one's psyche and well being. I have never forgotten it and I will always be vigilant and never take my rights for granted, let alone become complacent. They can be taken away at any given time.

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