Comments on: Former Tory leader attacks lesbian parents http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/ PinkNews.co.uk Gay News (UK and world) from Pink News - all the gay news for the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered community in the UK and beyond- thegaynews from Pink News Wed, 25 Nov 2009 03:06:35 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Ryan Haynes http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22982 Ryan Haynes Wed, 21 Nov 2007 22:32:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22982 I fully support what Rob says and the conversation I initiated from the start. We can't have 'out cake and eat it'.Children is a thing that 'happens'. It should not be made, and I mean in this no religious connotations. For children of 13 can become pregnant after only once having sex and a couple can work at it for years and never conceive.This in itself should be enough not to pressurise people into having children, but for us as a society to educate those who are not secure enough (financially and mentally) to have children, and by this I do mean teenagers in fragile relationships.Until a child is seen as our existance for the future, for passing on the lessons taught to us, and a being we can nuture for love - children will continue to be used as a commodity for expressing equality, normality or achieving financial support.Do we need examples in which to express this? Or should we just look on our streets everyday to see the results that treatment (like IVF) and benefits (from social security) has given us?! A reckless soicety after recognition and affirmation - not for development and community... I fully support what Rob says and the conversation I initiated from the start. We can't have 'out cake and eat it'.Children is a thing that 'happens'. It should not be made, and I mean in this no religious connotations. For children of 13 can become pregnant after only once having sex and a couple can work at it for years and never conceive.This in itself should be enough not to pressurise people into having children, but for us as a society to educate those who are not secure enough (financially and mentally) to have children, and by this I do mean teenagers in fragile relationships.Until a child is seen as our existance for the future, for passing on the lessons taught to us, and a being we can nuture for love – children will continue to be used as a commodity for expressing equality, normality or achieving financial support.Do we need examples in which to express this? Or should we just look on our streets everyday to see the results that treatment (like IVF) and benefits (from social security) has given us?! A reckless soicety after recognition and affirmation – not for development and community…

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]]> By: Rob Neal http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22983 Rob Neal Wed, 21 Nov 2007 21:49:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22983 Robert: I think you have also misinterpreted my comments. IVF has been an option for a lot of people for a long time, but nonetheless, there are alternatives. My best friend and his wife have been trying for children for many years, and failing. This can cause immense strain on a relationship, as the maternal drive can have huge effects on women. IVF is one (expensive) option, others include adoption or fostering.Unfortunately, in today's society, the concept of a married couple not having children is seen as at best, rather sad, at worst abnormal. Peer pressure demands families. How many gay men have summoned up the courage to come out to their parents, only for them to say "Oh, so we won't be having Grandchildren then?"Based on this, the homosexual society has jumped on the baby bandwagon in their attempt to be "normalised" and become equal, by using what was designed as a help for semi-infertile married couples conceive to being a way of "Daddy and Daddy" having a baby. I think it a gross abuse of so called "human rights" to demand that they can also have babies on tap. Gay men and lesbians lead an alternative lifestyle, admittedly not one of their choosing, but nevertheless, that's the way the die has been cast. Live with it. Either that, or go str8. You cant have your cake and eat it. Robert: I think you have also misinterpreted my comments. IVF has been an option for a lot of people for a long time, but nonetheless, there are alternatives. My best friend and his wife have been trying for children for many years, and failing. This can cause immense strain on a relationship, as the maternal drive can have huge effects on women. IVF is one (expensive) option, others include adoption or fostering.Unfortunately, in today's society, the concept of a married couple not having children is seen as at best, rather sad, at worst abnormal. Peer pressure demands families. How many gay men have summoned up the courage to come out to their parents, only for them to say "Oh, so we won't be having Grandchildren then?"Based on this, the homosexual society has jumped on the baby bandwagon in their attempt to be "normalised" and become equal, by using what was designed as a help for semi-infertile married couples conceive to being a way of "Daddy and Daddy" having a baby. I think it a gross abuse of so called "human rights" to demand that they can also have babies on tap. Gay men and lesbians lead an alternative lifestyle, admittedly not one of their choosing, but nevertheless, that's the way the die has been cast. Live with it. Either that, or go str8. You cant have your cake and eat it.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22984 Robert, ex-pat Brit Wed, 21 Nov 2007 20:19:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22984 Rob, I'm fully aware of how life begins in the womb thank you very much and I don't need a lecture from you on the reproductive system either. What you are missing is that when you rail against IVF, you did not address the situation with married women whose husbands are infertile. You imply that IVF should never be an option. So that means that any married woman in your eyes whose husband can't impregnate her, should not be allowed to receive sperm from a male donor. Any married woman in that situation should have the right to choose, either IVF because her husband can't get her pregnant, or a donor who can. As for two men having children, I never said they could. All I meant was that a gay male couple can have children via a surrogate mother using IVF. What part of my posting did you not understand? Rob, I'm fully aware of how life begins in the womb thank you very much and I don't need a lecture from you on the reproductive system either. What you are missing is that when you rail against IVF, you did not address the situation with married women whose husbands are infertile. You imply that IVF should never be an option. So that means that any married woman in your eyes whose husband can't impregnate her, should not be allowed to receive sperm from a male donor. Any married woman in that situation should have the right to choose, either IVF because her husband can't get her pregnant, or a donor who can. As for two men having children, I never said they could. All I meant was that a gay male couple can have children via a surrogate mother using IVF. What part of my posting did you not understand?

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]]> By: Rob Neal http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22985 Rob Neal Wed, 21 Nov 2007 15:56:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22985 Robert: I am wondering if anyone told you about the birds and the bees. Contrary to much opinion, babies are not delivered by a stork.It requires a fertile man, and a fertile woman.Whether the conception is done by IVF, turkey baster or the traditional method that apparently many heterosexuals adopt, there needs to be both sexes present at some point in the proceedings.Two men having a child is not physically possible. Or two women.That is what I meant by "unequal".I'm sure many gay people would like to eliminate the opposite sex entirely, but I am afraid until then, we still need both. Robert: I am wondering if anyone told you about the birds and the bees. Contrary to much opinion, babies are not delivered by a stork.It requires a fertile man, and a fertile woman.Whether the conception is done by IVF, turkey baster or the traditional method that apparently many heterosexuals adopt, there needs to be both sexes present at some point in the proceedings.Two men having a child is not physically possible. Or two women.That is what I meant by "unequal".I'm sure many gay people would like to eliminate the opposite sex entirely, but I am afraid until then, we still need both.

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]]> By: Ryan Haynes http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22986 Ryan Haynes Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:35:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22986 Rob you expressed exactly what I have been trying to communicate - obviously much more succinctly -thank you for joining this discussion.Rights - human rights - Our human rights are to eat, drink, sleep, love, be loved, excrete and communicate. [FULL STOP]No-one has a right to torture us, put us down, make us feel more worthy, make everything acceptable in a public space, nor make us the'same'.To be equal is to be heard, to be understood, to be involved - not to have like everyone else.If we are to submit ourselves to ideology then yes - lets go for IVF and be 'normal'. After all 'normal' is family and kids - as says the Bible - it maybe back to religion but - If I am to understand anything that has been said here, on equality and what been want as equal citizens is purely social engineering...conditioning us that to be equal is to be normal - 2.4! Rob you expressed exactly what I have been trying to communicate – obviously much more succinctly -thank you for joining this discussion.Rights – human rights – Our human rights are to eat, drink, sleep, love, be loved, excrete and communicate. [FULL STOP]No-one has a right to torture us, put us down, make us feel more worthy, make everything acceptable in a public space, nor make us the'same'.To be equal is to be heard, to be understood, to be involved – not to have like everyone else.If we are to submit ourselves to ideology then yes – lets go for IVF and be 'normal'. After all 'normal' is family and kids – as says the Bible – it maybe back to religion but – If I am to understand anything that has been said here, on equality and what been want as equal citizens is purely social engineering…conditioning us that to be equal is to be normal – 2.4!

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]]> By: Sister Mary Clarence http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22987 Sister Mary Clarence Wed, 21 Nov 2007 14:23:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22987 Robert, having read you posting twice I am at a loss to understand who you drew the conclusions you did from Rob's posting.There is a perfectly legitimate view being expressed on her that IVF is wrong and that childless couples (whether gay or straight) might be better off adopting a child with no parents.I don't think this has got anything to do with equality or inequality, or whether someone is bigoted or not. It is simply a point of view. Robert, having read you posting twice I am at a loss to understand who you drew the conclusions you did from Rob's posting.There is a perfectly legitimate view being expressed on her that IVF is wrong and that childless couples (whether gay or straight) might be better off adopting a child with no parents.I don't think this has got anything to do with equality or inequality, or whether someone is bigoted or not. It is simply a point of view.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22988 Robert, ex-pat Brit Wed, 21 Nov 2007 13:30:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22988 Rob, having said what you said that biologically gay men can't have children and that gay people should not be treated as equals to straights, then obviously you do NOT believe in equality. IVF enables gay men to have children via surrogate mothers, simple as that, the same as infertile fathers can have a male donor's sperm to impregnate his wife via IVF, simple as that. So you're also implying that if a married women has no other option than IVF to bare her own child rather than adopt, and it's her choice, then her husband isn't equal either, based on the fact that he can't produce fertile sperm sufficient enough to fertilize an ovum? Rob, having said what you said that biologically gay men can't have children and that gay people should not be treated as equals to straights, then obviously you do NOT believe in equality. IVF enables gay men to have children via surrogate mothers, simple as that, the same as infertile fathers can have a male donor's sperm to impregnate his wife via IVF, simple as that. So you're also implying that if a married women has no other option than IVF to bare her own child rather than adopt, and it's her choice, then her husband isn't equal either, based on the fact that he can't produce fertile sperm sufficient enough to fertilize an ovum?

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]]> By: Rob Neal http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22989 Rob Neal Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:33:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22989 I fully support a lot of what Ryan says. Although I am an atheist, with a rather anti-religious standpoint, I still think gay people expect to be treated totally as equals when the biology and physiology says otherwise. Next thing we will have queens mincing about screaming "I can have a womb if I want one!!" Gay people may be normal, but are not the "norm".Get over it and stop demanding what you consider to be a "right".There are plenty of kids that need parents, I see no reason why more have to be made just to suit the whims of selfish people. At the end of the day, nobody has a right to have children. The only rights are for the child itself, and that he or she can be brought up in a loving, caring, well-balanced and financially supportive environment.If that cannot be provided, then gay or straight, you shouldn't be allowed to bring a child into the world. I fully support a lot of what Ryan says. Although I am an atheist, with a rather anti-religious standpoint, I still think gay people expect to be treated totally as equals when the biology and physiology says otherwise. Next thing we will have queens mincing about screaming "I can have a womb if I want one!!" Gay people may be normal, but are not the "norm".Get over it and stop demanding what you consider to be a "right".There are plenty of kids that need parents, I see no reason why more have to be made just to suit the whims of selfish people. At the end of the day, nobody has a right to have children. The only rights are for the child itself, and that he or she can be brought up in a loving, caring, well-balanced and financially supportive environment.If that cannot be provided, then gay or straight, you shouldn't be allowed to bring a child into the world.

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]]> By: David http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22990 David Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:28:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22990 Whilst I don't agree with Ryan, I have sympathy towards his point of view. I think that whilst IVF and other fertilisation treatments are available to straight couples they should also be available to gay couples. I do however, wish that most couples would consider adoption as there are thousands of children in the UK who need a good home. Whilst I don't agree with Ryan, I have sympathy towards his point of view. I think that whilst IVF and other fertilisation treatments are available to straight couples they should also be available to gay couples. I do however, wish that most couples would consider adoption as there are thousands of children in the UK who need a good home.

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]]> By: William - Dublin http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22991 William - Dublin Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:00:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22991 Ryan, I do no think you're a bigot. I do however, think you are choosing what science to "believe" in and that others should be allowed access to. Science is not a religion. The proof is there, in clear, unambiguous black and white, for those who choose to understand it. The bible on the other had, is a smorgasbord of contradictions that you can pick and mix like cheap confectionery to suit your taste. Science can only be argued with by proof.Saying something wrong because its not "natural" is pretty damn stupid, when you consider in our world very little is truly "natural".No, you're not a bigot, Ryan, but you are in dire need of some education and a less judgemental, more empathic, approach to other people. And you'll be happier for it too. Ryan, I do no think you're a bigot. I do however, think you are choosing what science to "believe" in and that others should be allowed access to. Science is not a religion. The proof is there, in clear, unambiguous black and white, for those who choose to understand it. The bible on the other had, is a smorgasbord of contradictions that you can pick and mix like cheap confectionery to suit your taste. Science can only be argued with by proof.Saying something wrong because its not "natural" is pretty damn stupid, when you consider in our world very little is truly "natural".No, you're not a bigot, Ryan, but you are in dire need of some education and a less judgemental, more empathic, approach to other people. And you'll be happier for it too.

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]]> By: Ryan Haynes http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22992 Ryan Haynes Wed, 21 Nov 2007 07:51:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22992 It's disappointing for you all to think me a bigot. Far, Far from it.I guess either I am unable to communicate my thoughts, my opinions are not worthy because I do not share yours or that I have lived a very closed life... It's disappointing for you all to think me a bigot. Far, Far from it.I guess either I am unable to communicate my thoughts, my opinions are not worthy because I do not share yours or that I have lived a very closed life…

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22993 Robert, ex-pat Brit Tue, 20 Nov 2007 16:25:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22993 William, am enclosing a link to Wayne Besen's other website, "Truth Wins Out" which combats ex-gay ministries and other right wing religious bigots. He's doing some very impotant, marvellous work in defeating them. Check it out William, am enclosing a link to Wayne Besen's other website, "Truth Wins Out" which combats ex-gay ministries and other right wing religious bigots. He's doing some very impotant, marvellous work in defeating them. Check it out

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22994 Robert, ex-pat Brit Tue, 20 Nov 2007 15:22:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22994 Ryan, so what about a widowed parent? Are their children any less loved? What do you say to them? Do you condemn them for only having one parent? What about divorced couples and their children? What about the wife beaters, women who are forced to flee to a shelter with their children? I would rather a lesbian or any woman for that matter bring a child into the world via IVF knowing the child is wanted and will be loved unconditionally, live in a stable loving home and offered a future, unlike some of the straight breeders who breed for he sake of it and drag their children up to be tomorrow's gay bashers. Ryan, so what about a widowed parent? Are their children any less loved? What do you say to them? Do you condemn them for only having one parent? What about divorced couples and their children? What about the wife beaters, women who are forced to flee to a shelter with their children? I would rather a lesbian or any woman for that matter bring a child into the world via IVF knowing the child is wanted and will be loved unconditionally, live in a stable loving home and offered a future, unlike some of the straight breeders who breed for he sake of it and drag their children up to be tomorrow's gay bashers.

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]]> By: Ryan Haynes http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22995 Ryan Haynes Tue, 20 Nov 2007 14:36:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22995 I appreciate your comments, it's healthy to have this discussion I guess it's just a factor of "it's just not for me". I would never encourage anyone to go for IVF, and have occassionally advised my friends I am not the person to speak to about such subject.This is a personal belief - perhaps because I will never have a child of my own. Perhaps it is because I am part of the minority - I was born out of love and experienced the love that my parents have together for the whole of my life. And, too - have I seen my fathers parents raise him in love together and for him.I too see my pathetic teenage cousins as mothers on benefits. Who am I to judge - just view the world in through my eyes. I appreciate your comments, it's healthy to have this discussion I guess it's just a factor of "it's just not for me". I would never encourage anyone to go for IVF, and have occassionally advised my friends I am not the person to speak to about such subject.This is a personal belief – perhaps because I will never have a child of my own. Perhaps it is because I am part of the minority – I was born out of love and experienced the love that my parents have together for the whole of my life. And, too – have I seen my fathers parents raise him in love together and for him.I too see my pathetic teenage cousins as mothers on benefits. Who am I to judge – just view the world in through my eyes.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22996 Robert, ex-pat Brit Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:24:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22996 William, you're probably right about that. These right wing socalled christians do exactly the same with their belief systems. They deliberately cherry pick what few references there are to denigrate us and deny us our rights, but they'll go out of their way to dismiss anything that puts them in a bad light. Its nothing more than organised hypocrisy and bigotry, let alone ignorance.They'll probably all opposed to stem cell research, the future of medicine and science. They'd rather allow people to not seek cures for terminal illnesses because the methods used to fight them would probably involve invitro methods too. They need to get back to the caves from whence they came. William, you're probably right about that. These right wing socalled christians do exactly the same with their belief systems. They deliberately cherry pick what few references there are to denigrate us and deny us our rights, but they'll go out of their way to dismiss anything that puts them in a bad light. Its nothing more than organised hypocrisy and bigotry, let alone ignorance.They'll probably all opposed to stem cell research, the future of medicine and science. They'd rather allow people to not seek cures for terminal illnesses because the methods used to fight them would probably involve invitro methods too. They need to get back to the caves from whence they came.

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]]> By: Robert, ex-pat Brit http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22997 Robert, ex-pat Brit Tue, 20 Nov 2007 13:16:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22997 Ryan, the point is, lesbians can have children, naturally, its only the method of conception that is different, equally applicable to straight women whose husbands can't impregnate them for medical reasons or conditions. I'm sure the majority of women would rather give birth to their own children than adopt, and in many cases, go out of their way to make sure they can conceive in some form or other, but adoption is a perfectly acceptable option too. It comes down to choice, women have the right to choose since it is they who carry a child to term, not men. Why should you be concerned by which methods a woman conceives?If men could have babies, they might change there opininons, drastically. Ryan, the point is, lesbians can have children, naturally, its only the method of conception that is different, equally applicable to straight women whose husbands can't impregnate them for medical reasons or conditions. I'm sure the majority of women would rather give birth to their own children than adopt, and in many cases, go out of their way to make sure they can conceive in some form or other, but adoption is a perfectly acceptable option too. It comes down to choice, women have the right to choose since it is they who carry a child to term, not men. Why should you be concerned by which methods a woman conceives?If men could have babies, they might change there opininons, drastically.

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]]> By: William http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22998 William Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:41:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22998 Robert, I believe this is more then homophobia, its "selective science". Ryan is on of these people who feels its okay to enjoy the many benefits that science and technology provide him with, but is quick to judge what science another can or cannot use as a "moral judgement".They will also accept the science that makes their lives easier, like trust the time of their digital wrist watch, without needing or wanting to know how an oscillating quartz crystal works to tell them that time in the first place. They just accept it. But they'll happily pick and choose what science they will "accept" or believe should be refused to others, again with no real understanding of what they're talking about.It is simply a form of ignorance, not homophobia. Robert, I believe this is more then homophobia, its "selective science". Ryan is on of these people who feels its okay to enjoy the many benefits that science and technology provide him with, but is quick to judge what science another can or cannot use as a "moral judgement".They will also accept the science that makes their lives easier, like trust the time of their digital wrist watch, without needing or wanting to know how an oscillating quartz crystal works to tell them that time in the first place. They just accept it. But they'll happily pick and choose what science they will "accept" or believe should be refused to others, again with no real understanding of what they're talking about.It is simply a form of ignorance, not homophobia.

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]]> By: William http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-22999 William Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:31:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-22999 Can someone ban this so called "Kate Mos" and her stupid advertising? Can someone ban this so called "Kate Mos" and her stupid advertising?

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]]> By: William http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-23000 William Tue, 20 Nov 2007 12:29:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-23000 "Perhaps we will see one day people consider adoption before fertilisation!"Adoption is always an option for parents who cannot have their own child, but its not necessarily for everyone. People have the right to chose. Just because you cannot have children naturally, that doesn't mean its a closed case and adoption is the only option.If you contract cancer, and cannot cure it by yourself "naturally", would you be so quick to turn down a medical treatment, just because it wasn't "natural"? "Perhaps we will see one day people consider adoption before fertilisation!"Adoption is always an option for parents who cannot have their own child, but its not necessarily for everyone. People have the right to chose. Just because you cannot have children naturally, that doesn't mean its a closed case and adoption is the only option.If you contract cancer, and cannot cure it by yourself "naturally", would you be so quick to turn down a medical treatment, just because it wasn't "natural"?

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]]> By: Ryan Haynes http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html/comment-page-1/#comment-23001 Ryan Haynes Tue, 20 Nov 2007 08:35:00 +0000 http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-6094.html#comment-23001 I believe if you can't have kids naturally, you can't have kids. But it doesn't stop you raising them.Perhaps we will see one day people consider adoption before fertilisation! I believe if you can't have kids naturally, you can't have kids. But it doesn't stop you raising them.Perhaps we will see one day people consider adoption before fertilisation!

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