As to 'feeling more confident' – I think it's partly that but people don't wait until changes occur to modify their behaviors and/ or world views. I think it really is that they want to be a different person from they have been.

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1. a conscious taking upon oneself the behaviors and attitudes ascribed to the 'other' Gender.

2. a psychosomatic version of the same."

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

I have been thinking about this and wanted to build on your idea addressed in point one.

I was thinking, under the influence of estrogens or testosterone and the resulting changes towards a more masculine or feminine appearance; perhaps this does have the effect of allowing a person to feel more confident to adopt gender specific behaviours (no matter how stereotypical), rather than the gender specific behaviours emerging as a particular hormonal response

I think the issues that you raise earlier about the neglect of specific scientific findings is fascinating, also what is more interesting is the need to cover over things . . . i.e. to protect or preserve which version of reality exactly, as if one version should have dominance over all the rest

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as to sharper and more focused: I found this myself taking 'female' hormones and I think it's more to do with 'having a weight off your mind' rather than the majic of Hormones

Aggression? Perhaps: Testosterone has been linked in studies to aggression and risk taking in women but crucially the studies where based upon playing computer games and the increased aggression was saw upon playing the game again. This could be explained with the idea that they where used to the game and took more risks and where more aggressive as they where more confident with their abilities.

It could also be put down to two other factors:

1. a conscious taking upon oneself the behaviors and attitudes ascribed to the 'other' Gender.

2. a psychosomatic version of the same.

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As regards Gender, sexuality, Gender Roles ect. I'd suggest that we approach them in the way we would (or rather should) approach any dateset: begin with a blank sheet and allow the data to suggest it's own truths.

Two great examples of not doing this which are pertinent to our discussions are that a 19th century researcher into 'sex hormones' in Chickens set about selecting Cocks (snigger) who looked very virile and, to his horror, discovered that they had what he considered 'female' hormones in them.

A Victorian researcher found Homosexuality to be prevalent in Rams but buried his findings not because of issues of sexuality but because Homosexuality was not 'masculine.'

Never look at data with any preconceived idea or you'll corrupt the findings.

As to the idea that somehow because this person is not an Adult they must be protected from themeless/ evil predators looking to corrupt them: not only is this a replication of Homophobic arguments but it's also symptomatic of how we view children. Children know their own mind, they can think rationally and make decisions. We seek to keep them as children because we have a Victorian idea of an extended childhood which came about, at least partly, because of the Victorian how shall I put it…obsession with Children and Children's sexuality (it is also evident that this myth of Childhood is another part of the growth of the Nuclear Family as a tool to keep both Workers and Women in check during the industrial revolution.) Before the late 19th century 'Children' could marry, have sex, join the forces. We developed a myth of Childhood just as we developed a myth of The Family and we developed them at roughly the same time.

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The idea that we do not see things clearly, as if looking for a dirty glass.

I think this is apt and pertinent to our lack of understnading with regards gender, sexuality, masculine and feminine idenities as exposed and challanged by trans people.

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Responding to the issue raised by RobN concerning "Gender Stereotypes"

In my view stereotypes only become stereotypes because they contain an element of truth, and remain in place because they act as a mental short cuts or heuristic devices to comprehending the world.

All I want to do is raise some of the problems, contradictions and curious anomalies with regards gender which I do not think are in any way resolved . . .

1.Evidence from Trans-transitioning – Some female to male transsexuals have described the effect on first taking testosterone, i.e. that it sharpened their mind made them more focused and aggressive.

2.Evidence from Anthropology –In the Hopi Indian tribe, it is men who stay at home looking after the children and chatting to each other and occupying a nurturing role, in contrast it is the women who go out hunting.

3.Evidence from Western Consumerism – We may hate gender stereotypes as LGBT people but flick through the toy section of the Argos catalogue to find boys toys still concerned with war, killing etc; and girl’s toys connected with nurturing and caring.
Just as well the Hopi Indians do not have a local branch opening soon

When you Transcend gender – Trans people I feel threaten peoples mental short cuts (Simple heuristic devices such as stereotypes) and so increase our anxieties because understanding the world becomes more difficult.

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I sometimes wonder if it's possible to ever completely understand another's feelings but you can get close. Thinking this way I'm often reminded (I appoligise for using a religious analogy but I find them vaguely humorous) St. Paul who, properly translated, tells us that the greatest virtues are 'faith, hope and empathy.' Empathy is a good thing, the best we can give anyone.

As to robN: just ignore him, he's looking for a fight and to derail the argument.

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fac·tious
adj.
1. Of, relating to, produced by, or characterized by internal dissension.
2. Given to or promoting internal dissension.

Buying a dictionary will help you look less stupid next time.

As for the bus comment, maybe get a shag, and you wouldn't be so full of cranky old fart anger?

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And folks, in another thread, our factious friend here, RobN, admitted he's celebrate by choice….doesn't this explain a lot? The catholic use of words like "immoral", seeing the see the "parallels" with paedophilia?

Rob, are you an ex catholic priest or something?

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I understand some of you have not heard of . . .

"Trans-Trigonometry"

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Now view those self-same reasons and apply them to people pandering to a 9yo boy that thinks he's a girl. I am on no account comparing transexuality to paedophilia, but one can see the parallels, and the reasons why I and many others are deeply concerned that children are being steered in this manner. It is disturbing at best, and downright immoral at worst.

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I really do hope this kid goes on to live a normal and happy life and I hope there are many others like her. Saying that, I hope they find/have a very effective method of finding out which ones are real transexuals, I dunno whether there would be a kid who if once transitioned would change their mind but the idea of it happening is quite sad not only for the poor kid who didn't know what they were doing but for all young transexuals, if one kid changed his mind it could so easily cause them to put an age limit on it.

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Hardly a tangent.

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Seriously, this thread has more tangents than the Soho one-way system! The topic at hand is a 12 year old girl who just so happens to be 46XY. Say what you will about the indecision of kids, maybe she will grow out of it, but for now she identifies as female and it is right that we respect that. She can't have hormone-replacement until she's 16 or any kind of surgery until she's 18, end of. There's no way around that. What people don't get is that being in transition does not necessarily mean that a person will take hormones and have surgery next week on Thursday – it's a protracted process that can often take the better part of a decade even with a mature adult.

A thing that does cause contention on this subject is the issue of GNRh analogues (better known as "hormone blockers"). Let's be clear: a hormone blocker is NOT a hormone. It causes no permanent changes and no lasting effects. All it does is delay puberty for a few years to let the kid reflect. Puberty, after all, is very emotionally traumatic for a trans kid. If at 16 she's changed her mind and decides she's a boy then a quick jab of testosterone will kick-start his endocrine system and he'll be like any other teenage boy in a couple more years. No harm done. There really is no need for people to get all het up about it.

A little knowledge dispels a lot of ignorance.

Artemis

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