Actually, the folk of places like Sheffield, with their fast flowing streams, hills, forges, could not have failed to discover steel. The raw materials were there on a plate. We were spolit with idustrial might, mainly because of conceit, with an Empire, literally a captive market, on which the sun never set. Everything came together at the right time in the right place. Infact our success was dependent on the empire.

Good craftsmen, eccentric gifted amateurs. We might have developed every single stage in making steel, but we never capitalised on it. Like everything we invent. We left that to the Germans, who by the early 1900s had 60,000 university students, while we had 9,000. Out attitude to innovation and science has been the same all along – and our spolit Empire status sowed the seeds of our destruction.

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Oh, how wonderfully intelligent of you to say! Well done! Well done, indeed. What a clever come back that was. Quite the angry little bigot, aren't we? No surprise there, most bigots are. So, do tell, eat any good books lately?

So, yes I am British. I was born in Bristol. I am entitled not to accept your narrow little right wing views, and even if I was from outer Mongolia, I am STILL entitled to express my views that your are a dim witted buffoon for your filthy racism. And racism is the last vestige of the uneducated, beautifully demonstrated by your inspiring and poetic comments.

So, to borrow from your crude and delightfully learned approach, how about YOU "fucking off", you piece of bigoted scum.

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I love how short sighted and narrowly focussed all the rabid tory-haters are on here. Stop hanging on to unrealistic student type snobbery and get a clue!!

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Les: A united Europe is an expensive, straightjacketed Europe.
And safe from what exactly? Muslims? Eastern Europeans? They are already here. Americans? Like they never set foot out of their country.

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4 words: Living. In. The. Past.

A united Europe is a safe Europe.

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Beautiful, RobN. Simply inspired. Reminiscent of Hitler, 1939, isn't it? Now, what racial minority do you pick to be your scapegoat, then, eh? Ye know, to blame for all the countries ills. You pick one, and I'll get the gas chambers going, okay?

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Trident may be expensive, and I disagree with it, but it's still a shitload less than we are pouring into the money pit called EU; And we would have something to show for our money.

TomPaine: "We didn't need to innovate because we protected our markets with massive trade barriers."

No innovation? Are you pulling my chain? We had the greatest country of innovators, inventors, investors and forward thinkers on the planet!! Even long after the British Empire, we still managed to fight off the mighty Hun, not once, but twice.

I agree we are now all but a service industry, but we still have the wherewithal to go it alone and regain our position. We are still the 4th richest country in the world, so lets start spending some of that money where it counts, not on fat fuckers lunches in Brussels.

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Nowadays we have no manufacturing base, because no one can do science, (or spell, or add up, judging by the sinking standards of schools, in such dire straits and with A-Level results devaluing like the Zimbabwean dollar, universities have their own exams) and if they do, they are off to the USA.

Integrated economies need easy movement of money and people too.

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"This little island once ruled half the world"

True but those days are irrevocably over. Today Britain is a reasonably large economy off the west course of Europe that needs partners to retain any sort of international influence.

I always wonder why right-wingers never discuss the consequences of Britain leaving the EU. They spout all their (usually xenophobic)nonsense like 'Oh those dirty foreigners won't come here to steal our jobs if we leave the EU' but they never say 'Oh but we are very happy to welcome back the millions of expats in Spain and France and Greece because OBVIOUSLY if we leave then it will effect us.'Or 'Oh we're really happy that British people are going to require visas and residency permits to live on the continent' The right-wingers never say 'Oh I wonder how leaving the EU will effect our trade with the EU'. They never say 'How will Britain cope not being a member of the world's largest trading bloc'

As for the £40 million a day? Well how many billions is Britain going to spend on Trident? (allegedly ESSENTIAL for Britain's security – apart from the fact that the US will continue to control its deployment – Britain just pays for it)

As for the Tories – well them climbing into bed with homophobic, misogynistic extremists from Poland is evidence of the Tories own moral bankruptcy.

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We have hospitals running charity whip-rounds to raise cash for Kidney dialysis machines and the like. They should not have to do that. It should come from public funds. However, we are skint because we pay out £40m a day.

Yes, read that again: FORTY MILLION POUNDS A DAY!
I suggest people consider voting UKIP next time round.
That's why everyone wants a piece of that EU pie.

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1)It is a problem for David Cameron that this man has apparently said what he did.

It does not mean that the whole of his strategy in Europe should be suspended immediately on the back of one man's homophobia. Change would never take place at all if people suspended all communication in such an stupidly abrupt manner.

BTW – why is where David Cameron went to school relevant here?

2) you suggest some tension between the meaning of point 29 & 33. OK well let's just imagine that all of the gay people who intend to vote Tory suddenly became aware of what has been said and have to rethink their position.

I still contend that most probably won't be that bothered and even if they were, would put it to one side and see it as a small matter in a much wider range of issues and vote Tory anyway.

I don't think they are morons for taking this stance and I don't think that they will thank you for telling them they are either.

In fact I rather think they will look at your millitant posturing and say "no thanks".

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For the 3rd time I will repeat the quote from the Polish president (leader of Law & Justice Party – the Tories new best mates).

"THE PROMOTION OF HOMOSEXUALITY WILL LEAD TO THE EVENTUAL DESTRUCTION OF THE HUMAN RACE"

Is that compatible with Eton-boy Cameron's pledge to support gay equality?

And I must point out to you that you made the claim in comment 29 "the larger proportion of the gay population and the larger proportion of the general election are going to vote Tory".

However in comment 33 you change this to "very few people will really consider the thoughts of the prime minister of Poland"

So do you accept that gay people will obviously react negatively to the Tory association with bigotted lunatics?

By the way I use the words 'bigotted'; 'extremist' and 'lunatic' to describe the Law & Justice Party because that is what they are obviously if they believe that homosexuality will lead to the destruction of mankind.

If the Tory Party wish to associate with deranged catholics (a new description I've not used yet) then obviously the description should may well apply to them as well. Don't blame me because the Tories have revealed their nasty, vicious side once again.

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In the meantime I also want to hear how the Tories are going to vote in Parliament with this group if the Poles want to vote against some measure concerning civil rights to minority groups that they hate. Are the Tories going to resign from the group? Or are they going to tolerate it?

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I think you will find that when people think about which way they will vote in a UK general election, very few people will really consider the thoughts of the prime minister of Poland.

Furthermore I think they are unlikely to be interested in parties represented by people like you who resort to calling them morons for considering voting Tory.

Have you ever thought that your strategy of trying to attach words like moron, lunatic & bigot to every sentence in which you also use the word Tory makes you sound slightly deranged and hysterical?

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You may support the Tories but please remember that the Tories CHOOSE to link themselves to a Polish party comprised of homophobic extremists.

I think you will find that as the Tories link to homophobic extremists becomes more well-known that your claims that gay people will vote Tory will not be true any more. If the Tories don't mind vicious homophobia in their political bedfellows then only an absolutely moronic gay person would vote for them.

What has Alan Duncan and all the other gay Tories said? Or are they all too rich and remote to care about ordinary people;s reaction to this?

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At any rate, I have written to my MP, 2 x MEPs and Conservative central office asking them to explain themselves. I have some sympathy that when a party (like the Conservatives) has such an extreme view on Europe, it must be pretty tough to find some substantial grouping with which to ally themselves, without making unpalatable compromises as to who your friends are. (They might have taken it as an indicator that their polices on the EU were also extreme, but 30 years of experience suggests… anyway…)
For me, the key practical question is about what happens when there is some vote on sexual equality in which this Polish party wants to vote against. Will the Conservatives resign from the grouping, fight the case, vote their own way, or vote to appease the Polish party or abstain? I doubt I'll get a sensible answer to the questions I've sent to the MPs/MEPs/etc, but I live in hope.

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