Your point about sex education – the UK does not provide adequate informaiton about condoms. It is actually behind other European countries. There is excellent access to condoms and sex information in the Netherlands (where I lived for 10 years by the way), Scandianvia.

And the corollary – wherever people are deprived of sex education, access to contraceptives, there is more disease. (cf: 'Condom ban helping AIDS spread in Latin America – report by the United Nations, 23 Oct 2007, for example)

The evidence in peer reviewed journals, suggests that when children are given no informaiton, or only told about 'abstinence'
they are ill equipped – both educationally and practically – to cope, making them more prone to problems I referred to above than others.

"That is my belief. Whether thats an opinion or not is immaterial. That is just my belief."
- You are welcome to your opinion. But it doesn't count for anything. By your own admission, without a coherent reason to support it, you are out of the argument. So long as you don't dictate to other gay couples whether they have kids or not, it's fine by me of course. The fact that many of your friends agree with you does not count. After all – everyone in Galileo's time believed the sun went round the earth. Consensus is no consolation for lack of evidence.

The point about the Big Bang Theory – that a parent would not want their child to know the universe started 13.7 billion years ago (as opposed to about 6,000 years ago), is completely plausible. [In the US, the Texas education board has just last month, insisted Science textbooks remove reference to the age of the Universe.] Over 40 faith schools in the UK are actually teaching kids that the Genesis legend is literal truth.

Parents do not know best about ediucation – that is why kids go to school in the first place.

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

Parents do not have the right to decide what their kids should be taught. Can you imagine, strictly religious parents beign allowed to pull their child out of the physics class because Big Bang Theory offends their deeply held beliefs? Children need access to the best knowledge available – often to break down prejudices held by parents, who do not know any better to start with.

If something is a threat to society, or civilisation – absolutely, we destroy it. The Taleban for example, after 9/11. I don't love my enemies. It's them or us. Tolerance has to be reciprocated, and earned.

Reactionary senile clerics should not be allowed to fill children's minds with lies, shame, fear and guilt. It has notihng to do with democracy, or being a 'lefty'; Children are vulnerable and impressionable and they need protection from other people's bad ideas.

As for whether kids should learn about safe sex – well, great to see you're continuing the Catholic Church's stupid teachings, and encouraging unwanted pregnancies and spreading of sexually transmitted diseases. Adolescents will experiment. It's best they know the score.

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

Clearly, you would rather two gay people did not have children (why you have the arrogance to meddle in other people's affairs is frankly beyond me). If you had your way, a great many children would not have been brought into the world. They would not be alive today. The opposite of life is death. Do you have problems with basic English?

"Although, actually, I have no problems with a single gay man or single lesbian bringing up a kid on their own – just not as a couple. …But I just dont think being brought up by two people of the same sex is right, if theyre a couple anyway."

- As Pumpkin pointed out quite succinctly, problem kids are from unstable families. There is NO EVIDENCE to show that same-sex couples are less likely to provide a loving, stable environment for a child than a straight couple.

Do you actually have a REASON to believe gay couples shouldn't bring up kids, rather than infantile statements beginning with 'I just don't think…' – you could have finished the sentence there quite frankly.

As for faith schools – no, why should children be indoctrinated with their parents' faith, courtesy of the state? Why should they be denied access to proper education about sexuality, terrorised with threat of hell, because they are from a specific ethnic background? While kids are captive at school they are vulnerable to picking up the bad ideas of those who have authority over them.

Statistics show most people do not want religious schools – they want good schools. Faith schools manage to cream off the best kids and leave state to deal with the underperformers.

Faith schools do nothing for cohesion and lead to segregation. We don't need them and mark my words, I would have every last one of them bulldozed.

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

Drop us a line when the 21st Century reaches you up there in the North.

In the meantime save yourself some stress and keep the bigoted comments to yourself.

For everyone else – Adam is a Tory – who is seriously going to vote for that kind of blinkered world view ?

Remember: A Tory vote in the Euro Elections is a vote for the Far Right (just ask Dave why he's aligning the Tory party in Europe with extreme right wing parties who hate gay people – even gay elephants, it seems).

One World. One Chance. Vote Green.

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

Eh? How does one legislate such a thing? What exactly was this legislation they were voting on, then?

Psychologists have confirmed kids grow up better in stable families.

Indeed they have. They also found that having mixed sex or same sex parents made no difference. Another thing they found is that children who have grown up in institutions, without a family, tend to do much worse in life than those who had a family upbringing. It seems utterly cruel and selfish for people to want deny these children the opportunity of having a stable home, just because of backwards cultural principles which directly contradict logic, morality and psychological study.

(Report comment to the moderator)

I'm not a fan of Mandelson, Blair, Brown or any of those. Harriet Harman is probably the most attractive face of Labour along with David Miliband.

Look, I thankyou for the debate but I am only going to repeat myself as are you.

I have different values and feel that (at it's heart) Labour represent mine more. I believe in equality for all, (and being a lesbian that it especially a strong point), I believe in winter fuel allowances for the elderly, funding for the NHS and education.

The only thing I shall say about the Conservatives is that their stance regarding the EU and the Lisbon Treaty is absoloutely spot on. Unfortuntaely that one policy is not enough to out-weigh the previous Labour ones.

(Report comment to the moderator)

At what point did I mention the word "obsessed"?

They closed the mines because they were uneconomic and being screwed by Arthur Scargill. The unions had this country in a stanglehold, and may I remind you of three day weeks, power-cuts, bin bags strewn through the streets etc etc. It was the Tories that cleaned up the mess that Labour had left behind.

They "thumped" Liverpool Council because of the corruption and devious goings on of Derek Hatton and his lefty cronies.

Tony Blair blatantly *LIED* about WMD's "launching in 45 minutes". That is why he got all-party support. That soon vapourised when we all discovered it was a pile of bullshit. So much so, one guy topped himself.

This country was already dipping into major financial trouble long before it ballooned into a global issue. I seem to remember a certain G. Brown as chancellor selling off all our gold stocks when it's price was at it's lowest for a pile of worthless Japanese bonds.

Please check your facts instead of hurling around Mandelsonian spin.

(Report comment to the moderator)

By John Roberts Education Correspondent and Tom Smithard Political Correspondent
Exclusive
SCORES of religious state schools could be set up in Yorkshire by parents, local communities or religious groups under a Tory government with "formidable checks" in place to stop the spread of extremism.

The Conservatives want to make it easier for parents, charities and trusts to set up their own new schools to meet the needs of local communities.

Shadow Schools' Secretary Michael Gove told the Yorkshire Post his party would welcome the creation of new religious schools and accepted that the policy could lead to an increase in Islamic state schools being funded in areas of West Yorkshire.

However he dismissed fears that such a move could lead to further segregation or extremism in the region.

In a wide-ranging interview Mr Gove also appeared to back down from the Conservatives' official position on grammar education, that while no new grammar schools would be set up there would be a "grammar stream in every subject in every school".

He refused to say that remained Tory policy but instead said: "Children will generally be streamed by ability across schools.

"The reality is that parents who want to can send their children to an independent Islamic school, can send them to madrassahs for religious teaching after school and many pupils will be attending schools where de-facto segregation already exists.

"We want to meet the rights of parents to give their children a faith-based education in accordance with their Islamic beliefs while at the same time ensuring that these schools are properly run and promoting the values of a modern Britain.

………………….

See the rest of the article in ther yorkshire post. So there you have it, the Tories are just as bloody stupid as Labour on education.

(Report comment to the moderator)

I'm not 'obsessed' with the Belgrano. Mentioning it once is not an 'obsession'. It was yet another example of what the Tories did last time they were in power. Along with closing the mines, thumping Liverpool because of it's left-wing council, the NHS in a severe state of rot due to lack of funds, 1 in 10 unemployed, nurses marching on London, poll tax. Sinking a ship that was turning away is the tip of the ice berg to what Thatcher did. And everyone knows that more asylum seekers et al were allowed in under Michael Howard's stewrdship.

As for mentioning Iraq, as you all know, the Tories were very much behind Tony Blair, with many, many Labour MPs against – not to mention their supporters.

Will I ever forgive or trust the Tories? I would like to say yes, but my heart says no. When you're from an area of the country that was completely shit on by them last time (aided and abetted by the London Press might I add) it's hard to forget. Only under Labour did my city recover.

As for the economy, as I said before, this is a world-wide recession; not a Labour made one.

If you believe in Darwin then why say 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and
Steve'?

And RobN, who the fuck are you to tell me to shut my trap? Winnet.

(Report comment to the moderator)

The evidence is not with you. Children of gay couples actually do grow up in happy stable environments, just like children of straight couples.

In any case, bullying is being stamped out, among other things by telling school kids that some people have different types of families. There is nothing 'selfish' about bringing a young child into the world at all. A pathetically ignorant statement, and in fact wicked, to say that a child of a gay couple is effectively, is better off dead.

I don't think Ken Clarke can claim all the credit, since we hapened to be reaping the benefits of the global, internet economy and the opening up of east europe and other emerging markets. Gordon Brown of course also squandered huge sums of telecomms and privatisation windfall monies. AS for education, indeed it is a shambles – 50 science faculties closed since 1997; but you have seen nothing yet. India has 400,000 science / engineering undergraduates, and innovation centres are moving out there. The Chinese copy everything from DVDs to printing presses, perfect down to the last cog. And over here, everybody wants to do good for nothing desk jobs like being consultants, lawyers (cf J Dyson speech, Dimbleby lecture, Dec 2004), rather than getting hands dirty in a lab. That has to change if we are to be taken seriously.

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

Oh, and Lezzie: The Belgrano went down with all hands, but that pales into insignificance at Tony Blair instigating an illegal war in Iraq, and the interminable arse-licking of Dubya anywhere the USA wanted to go. I suggest you shut your trap sharpish before you get a major whopping for your hypocrisy. Trust me, anything questionable the Tories have done, you can sure as hell find a Labour example ten times worse.

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

(Report comment to the moderator)

"Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" – That is the single most, boring, and predictable thing anyone can say when using the Bible as an excuse to take away the rights of homosexuals regarding adoption.

If you believe the Bible, and indeed Adam and Eve, then you must be aware that they must have had children, which in turn must have had incestuous relationships with eachother or indeed their mum and dad i.e Adam and Eve; for the human race to continue. Therefore you must think incest is OK. Either that or you've never heard of Charles Darwin, or things called 'di-no-saurs' which prove the Bible is fairy stories.

Anyways, back to politics. 1979 is completely different to now.

You must have a selective memory of what the NHS used to be like years ago, remember patients dying in corridors do you? Sorted out through borrowing or not, it needed this after years of Tory neglect. Why have Labour had to spend so much??? Because of years of Tory cuts.

As for your sister, I had to pay tuition fees too because my parents earned over the limit. That is one of the worst policies from Labour……but it hardly ranks up there with the Belgrano, Miner's and Nurse's strikes. This country was left in a shambles. And it has taken 10 years of Labour control to try and fix it.

You can only say 'oh they're in the past' because Labour won 3 terms which obviously means it's in the past; but we all know the Tories are still the same nasty-bastard-look-after-the-rich party.

And it's only after this world-wide recession, are you all now beginning to pipe up. Prior to this recession our economy sustained the largest period of growth under, yep, Labour!

Spouting things like 'Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve', can I ask, are you even gay????

If not then why the hell are you here?

(Report comment to the moderator)