Perhaps Pink News would care to take a look at the IP addresses of the posters (note that I'm at my partner's house in london now not where I made my earlier posts from).

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@xyl and transwoman – TransLondon did not organise the breakfast last year – that was FTM London and they used their own money until Pride offered to reimburse them. It was not in any way a breakfast for a select few. There were 80 breakfasts provided for anyone in the trans community on a first come first served basis and the availability was posted in a newsletter to every trans group possible and on as many noticeboards as possible. I remember seeing a very representative selection of trans people there.

Regarding collecting money – that simply did not happen. TransLondon has never shaken any buckets at any events including Pride. It is an entirely voluntary organisation without any funding. No TL members claimed travel bursaries last year either – we live in London so why would we?

People are believing the spin.

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on re-reading TransLondon's press release it seems to me that they are drawing our attention to misrepresentation within the Pride march and the organisational structure for it this year. TransLondon may not speak for the entire Trans community but they are still a valid voice and, given the history we are celebrating, one that ought to be listened to.

they are pointing out the fault lines and blindnesses within our wider community. the fact that their tone is becoming more insistent suggests to me that our major organisations (such as London Pride and Stonewall) who exercise a lot of power in how our community is represented are missing the point.

it would be wonderful if our major organisation would hold grass-roots level consultations in an open way with groups who have concerns over marginalisation. this would show true community leadership. the process may not always be easy but it would build a richer wider community where we really do find unity in celebrating and encouraging diversity.

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re-reading TransLondon's press release it seems that they are drawing attention to misrepresentation with the Pride March and also within the organisational structures of it this year. and even though TransLondon may not speak for the whole Trans community(and i'm sure they don't) they are still a valid voice within our community and one that, given the tradition we are celebrating, we ought to listen to.

we are being alerted to the fault lines and blindnesses within our wider community. and the fact that their tone is becoming more strident points out for me that our major organisations (such as London Pride and Stonewall) who have greater power over who gets represented, are missing the point.

it would be wonderful if we saw our major organisations holding grass-roots consultations with groups who feel marginalised. this would show greater community leadership. although the process may not always be an easy one it would build a much richer community where we really do find unity through celebrating diversity.

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on re-reading TransLondon's press release it seems that they are drawing attention to misrepresentation within the Pride march and how the organisation has operated this year. whilst TransLondon may not speak for the whole Trans community (and i'm sure they don't) they are still a valid voice and given the tradition we are celebrating, one that we ought to listen to. their press release shows the fault lines and blindnesses that exist within our wider community and we would do well to heed them. the stridency of their tone for me shows that our organisations who have a lot of power to control representations (such as pride, stonewall etc.) are missing the point.

it would be truly wonderful if our larger organisations would hold grass-roots consultations with groups expressing concerns over marginalisation. although the process might not always be easy it could open our community to a great richness where we really do find unity in our celebrating of diversity.

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on re-reading the TransLondon press release it seems to me that what they are doing is drawing attention to misrepresentation and the lack of diverse expression within Pride. even if TransLondon do not represent the whole of the Trans community (and i am sure they don't) their voice is still a valid one and, given the tradition we are celebrating, one that we ought to be embracing as showing up fault lines and blindnesses within our greater community. the fact that their tone has become strident just shows that our organisations with more power to control representation are still missing the point. it would be wonderful if our major organisations such as stonewall, pride etc carried out grass roots consultations with groups expressing concerns with marginalisation. although the process might not always be easy it has the potential to broaden our community and help us find a place where we find unity in celebrating diversity.

and on the toilet issue – a few years ago i came across a report from the institute for lesbian and gay studies addressing the issue of Trans people using Shelters or other Sheltered Accommodation. as i remember, the report concluded that the best way to proceed was for the self-identification of the person to be honoured. so the work on this issue has been done. i can understand the anger of TransLondon that at an event like Pride the Stewards were not aware of the issues surrounding gendered public facilities such as toilets.

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my experiences as a gay man have confirmed for me that trans experiences are fundamentally intertwined with gay experiences. after all a lot of homophobia is fundamentally based on gender expectations – you're a man you're not supposed to behave that way. men don't do this. women don't do that. the deep questioning of our gender identities by the trans community is doing a lot to free people from restrictive roles. it is a pity this could not be represented and celebrated at Pride. our community would be much richer as a result.

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PS You are confusing assualt with battery here. If someone believes they will come to harm (ie they are threatened in a convincing way) that is assualt; battery is the act of actualy violence. Often confused.

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I thus have a very good history of involvement with the – predominately London – LGBT scene and events, and of Paul Birrell personally.

Firstly, I know Paul Birrell is not – in any way – someone who regards even the most minority of interests as in any way inconsequential. Paul has, at his most fundamental level, ingrained in his DNA almost, a commitment to equality and fairness. It is very unlikely that he would, or deliberately, act against any specific or group, minority, interest group at Pride London.

While Paul may, of necessity, be a 'blunt instrument' as opposed to a surgical scalpel, in terms of having to deal with a wide range and level of special interest groups, this is a feature of any higher-level organisational responsibility. No one person at any level can have a totally detailed view: individual representatives – including at Pride London – must take personal responsibility for their own respective areas.

What does not seem to be understood here is that Pride London – assuming it is the same as its pre-cursors – is NOT generally an organisation of paid positions! Post-holders do this as a voluntary position, in their own spare time, of their own generosity – as do those of the contributory groups to Prides under any guise!

Nor is Pride, under any guise, an organisation with vast riches to behold and to scatter as it pleases. It is not. Yes, public funds may be available, private funds may be too. But these funds are inevitably limited, and choices must be made. Difficult choices!

As I know from my own experiences liaising with the various groups who provide floats at Pride, the effort put in, and understanding of each groups' own interests, is crucial, but are other areas of the community better than Pride overall?

In my years at London Lesbian and Gay Switchboard between 1999 and 2002, I can tell you that this is not the case. Why is it that that organisation itself is still not called 'London Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgendered Switchboard'?

Honestly? Because every time such a proposition was made, near-riot ensued. The popular joke / rumour was that if such a proposition ever even made it to a vote of the membership, at least half the female, lesbian, members would resign en-masse, in expectations of the male bisexuals practically raping them in the building. As far as any potential trans-members were concerned, again, any male-to-female trans members were regarded as not 'real' women or lesbian members while female to male trans members were viewed as traiters. This was always to ignore any more 'subtle' issues such as those of biological or physical sex – pre- or post-op – members.

So, I would say that I find it difficult to accept that the true or whole fault here lies with Pride London – let alone personally against Paul Birrell who is, after all, but one cog in a big mechanism – than it lies with the whole edifice of the various LGBT communities.

In closing – engage in dialogue. I am sure, knowing the key participants such as Paul Birrell, that this is fully possible, and that true, wider resolutions are totally achievable.

If anyone in the trans community has the slightest issue with Pride London let alone any other organisation – ask yourselves, look at, other organisations such as London Lesbian and Gay Switchboard, ask yourselves if this is a unique slight, or a wider, community-based, one – THEN not only decide, but make your plans for action on those bases, not one aimed solely at one, largely undeserving, target.

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Showing respect, offering love and always tolerant, Sr. Dire xxx

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Will that be the private, invitation-only breakfast that the majority of us were excluded from despite it being paid for by London Pride?

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I would have to re-read it all, but for the moment, why were the funds of the Trans@Pride committee abolished? Who proposed that? Did Trans have any say in the matter?

These questions cannot remain unanswered. Transparency is part and parcel of the democratic process. I smell something fishy.

As for the float, I always felt that the last float was every bit as important as the first. Doesn't the last float leave a lasting impression? Does for me.

Finally, this whole thread would have been simplified had you spoken up sooner, but I am not saying that to blame you. From a stranger's point of view (I live in Canada, in my mid-60's, in a successful s-s relationship), I have been so confused reading this thread…couln't see the forest for the trees, know what I mean?

The members of TransLondon will not participate as a group. Individual Trans are free to do what they want without fear of reprisals, correct?

Finally, what do you think of the suggestions made in this thread regarding the use of unisex toilets as a compromise?

I feel there's a strong undercurrent here that I can't put my finger on. There's a piece of the puzzle missing, or am I going daft?

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Your insinuation that the withdrawal of the allegation of assault was on some sort of technicality won't wash. The Borough Commander of Westminster has accepted that careful consideration of the CCTV evidence, has been not only failed to substantiate the allegation but DISPROVED it.

You then state:

"If you actually read the story properly …
The business about negative media stereotypes in an ‘also ran’ and the primary reason, according to the report, is fact that a trans women was denied access to female toilets last year."

If you want to gauge TransLondon's priorities it would make more sense to read the statement they actually put out, rather than the Pink News summary of it. To be helpful, I have appended it below. Clearly your interpretation above is not accurate one:

"In a busy meeting on May 19th, members of TransLondon, London's largest support group for all trans-identified and genderqueer people, voted overwhelmingly for a boycott of the Pride London 2009 march and rally. As a result, for the first time since the group was formed, TransLondon will have no presence in the parade, nor at the rally.

This is part of an ongoing estrangement from Pride. Last year, a successful Pride march was marred at the rally in Trafalgar Square when a number of trans women were denied access to the women's toilets by Pride security stewards. One woman was subsequently sexually assaulted after being told to use the male toilets. Roz Kaveney, one of the women targeted in the 2008 "ToiletGate" incident, explained how she felt Pride London had only ever provided a grudging apology under threat of legal action, and that she felt they had never taken the discrimination against trans women in the 2008 rally seriously.

During the meeting on May 19th 2009, members heard how the democratic and transparent structure used in 2008 to co-ordinate participation of trans groups and the funds made available for transgender attendees, through the elected Trans@Pride committee, has been abolished by Pride London for 2009. Instead, Pride London have imposed their own unelected "representative" for the trans strand. Furthermore, requests for information about funding, how decisions were made and who participated in the decision-making process, have been rebuffed.

Last year, the elected Trans@Pride Committee consulted repeatedly with over a dozen groups and hundreds of individuals over before arranging travel bursaries for trans people to attend from around the country, hosting a breakfast for marchers on the day, commissioning artwork from a local queer artist as a rallying point for trans marchers, producing banners and bunting, arranging trans performers for all of the Pride stages including the main stage in Trafalgar Square and publicising the arrangements widely. In stark contrast, the meeting heard of how Pride London's appointed trans "representative" for 2009 has simply imposed Pride’s vision for trans participation in the march and rally.

The 2009 pride participation is, so we are told, to consist of a float at the very back of the parade which would pander to the most tired and inaccurate media stereotypes of trans people. Trans women would, in Pride's vision, be dressed in sequins, high heels and fairy wings and, apparently as an afterthought, a few trans men would be invited to pose in football strips. The Pride representative explained that the trans float would complement a float at the front of the march with members of the cast of the West End musical, "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert". In her vision, onlookers would be delighted to see "Priscilla at the front and Priscilla at the back". As a coup de grace, a visible cordon of security stewards would surround the trans float, ostensibly "for our own protection".

Rather than address the true diversity of the trans community, members of TransLondon felt that participating in such an event would serve only to bolster the kind of negative media stereotypes which portray trans people as "the cast of Grease", and that these undemocratic plans constitute an insult to London's diverse trans community. Sarah Brown, a member of TransLondon, an elected member of Trans@Pride 2008 and co-founder of the London Transfeminist Group said, "If I am to march at Pride, it would be as the lesbian woman I am, not dressed up as a corporate parody".

To determine TransLondon's official position on participation in Pride London 2009, three options were put to the vote:

Option one, to participate in the march under the terms we felt were being dictated by the Pride London board, received no votes.

Option two, to participate in the march independently of the "official" trans strand, as a form of direct action to show our dissatisfaction, received 31% of the votes cast.

Option three, to boycott the parade and rally received 65% of the votes cast.

There were some abstentions from members who wanted to see what their friends in other groups were doing before making a decision.

The democratic decision of the membership of TransLondon is therefore that the organisation will have no official presence or banner at Pride London, 2009."

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Aw, don't be like that.

You are one of the 100 watt light bulbs in this debate. Please, continue to kick it around. Go ahead and argue, debate, you have some good points, you're smart.

I know Sister Mary Clarence simply because she regularly posts on other issues on PinkNews threads. That doesn't take anything away from you.

Please take a minute to elaborate what you mean by 'divert, derail and disinform'. For example, speak to me as if I don't know anything about the issue. I want to learn something from this debate that no-one else can teach me.

Please don't be like that, don't leave the debate. Every one will come out of this experience a better person, you'll see. So what if everyone will have to compromise a bit?

This is not a contest, it's an open debate. There won't be a winner or a loser; there will be a consensus, and you are getting closer and closer to it.

Be honest, speak your mind, help everyone keep the well-being of the group at the forefront. You can do that.

Take it out on me, if you want, yell, scream, punch me in the head if you're angry. I don't blame you.

Is there anything in Sister Mary Clarence's last post that you can agree with? What about this corporate image thing? What is that, anyway?

It's more of a challenge to build than to destroy, and this experience will only give you all more of what you will forever need in your lives: more guts! More, more, more!

Please carry on. Ple-e-ase.

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TransLondon are making a big thing about this because of the toiletgate thing. But elements of pride are also blowing this up because of the trans Stonewall awards Julie Bindel demo.

What's not happening is people sitting down and discussing a way forward and how we all can work together. A lot of good work by people who are unifiers has been destroyed by all this petulance. I wish some people would see this has a direct effect on trans people when they are looking to access shared services.

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