Er, you never were welcome…. gay site? Hello. GAY. Its not a site for religious idiots with 1792 era opinions on evolution, you twit.

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I WAS IN A PUBLIC LOO THE OTHER DAY AND WRITTEN ON THE WALL WAS: MY MOTHER MAD ME A HOMOSEXUAL. WRITTEN UNDERNEATH THAT, WAS: IF I BUY THE WOOL, WILL SHE MAKE ME ONE!?

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Haha, crossdressing's gonna be so fun! I don't have to choose between men and women, so why should I have to choose between male and female clothing? A transgal pal of mine thinks I'd look pretty cute in a dress (as do I!). I can't believe I've waited so long to give it a try!

PS: We are indeed bored of you now, Hank. We've answered everything before, we're now going in circles. We're going to talk about other stuff or just abandon the thread now.

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Oh, believe it. I am more than happy with my make-up. Its who I am, and if I could be born again with a choice, I'd be gay again. Simple as that. Believe what you want. Are you happy being a stipid bigot? Me thinks you should try change.

Tony, well said. Hank thinks these silly NARTH references makes a point. If this is all he has, a bunch of hate filled fringe "professionals" from Narth, then he's lost. His foolishness goes on and on.

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YOU???

Now I've seen it all. The gimp who cannot understand the basics of evolution, is arguing with a qualified doctor! Ha! Are we supposed to take you seriously?????

Now I've seen it all. What an arsehole you are Hank. A stupid one at that.

Poor Hank, one of natures losers.

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Full stop.

We keep telling you this, your ears and mind are closed. Until you accept the obvious, you are lost. Can you "choose" to be gay?

Also, I have checked some of your references. All these people I have checked are all christians with some issues with homosexuality. You're references are biased, and therefore not under consideration.

Either get some real facts, or fuckoff. You insult my intelligence. Do. Lyons is right, there is something really wrong with you.

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"And how do you handle those who choose the homosexual lifestyle
because it's "cool," as seen by so many Hollywood people. They want to join in "being gay," to further their stardom, get in
with the homosexual directors, producers, promoters, etc.

Can you really call them gay, or faux-gays? And don't think that
individuals can't choose to be gay in many cases, for one
of many reasons.

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Below are some of the references connected with some of my comments. No, I did not check into and read every reference.

If you have more recent references I'd like to see them. Please
list them and I'll do whatever I can to read them.

The way the APA "voting" was done to remove homosexuality from
being viewed as a mental illness seems to have not been properly
done with having the majority of psychiatrists having had a
chance to vote, which could have had a totally different result.

My basic point for commenting on this site is as follows. I've
read enough viewpoints from psychiatrists, counselors, people
dealing with homosexuals and their problems/unhappiness, etc. and
would like to not live as homosexuals, but there seems to be no
hope for them to change their psyche, behavior, thinking, desires,
etc. to get the proper help to make this change.

And from all I get on this site, is "once gay, always, gay," or
"you're born that way, get used to it," — there's no hope given
to those who truly want to change.

To make such a drastic change is monumental, I see that, but from
some psychiatrists and psychoanalists it seems to be able to be done with the proper assistance, much time and serious desire to
make this change. I cannot believe that all homosexuals are truly
100% happy with their makeup, and then what do you do with those
that are deeply desirious to change? Do you say, "sorry, nothing
can be done!"

I'm not necessarily talking about popular ex-gay groups that profess to have helped and perhaps are not qualified to help make
these changes There are probably qualified specialists who can
facilitate these changes with no harmful effects.

Do you state/believe that homosexuality is because of a "gene" that's inborn, when no studies have shown this "fact."
Do you discount the possibility of cases where child abuse/sexual abuse, parental dysfuntionality, peer pressure, enviornmental
affects, some chemical alterations in pregnany, plus more
possible factors can cause sexual identity confusion and have
a person believe they are homosexuals or bisexuals?

Homosexuality is a Mental Illness
1.
6 Richard John Neuhaus, "Table for One," Dec 13, 1993. A review of homosexual Bruces Bawer's "A Place at the Table The Gay Individual in American Society." Contains many brilliant arguments.
75 Homosexual writer, in [s100].
69 "The Problem of Homosexuality." N.Y. Academy of Medicine. Bulletin. 40 576-580, 1964.
25 For a description of this entire medical debacle, Dennemeyer refers us to Ronald Bayer, "Homosexuality and American Psychiatry The Politics of Diagnosis" (New York Basic Books, 1981).
G. William Gairdner, "The War Against the Family a parent speaks out" (Toronto Stoddart, 1992). An excellent overview of the liberal agenda and aims by a Stanford professor of philosophy.
R. Judith Reisman, Ph.D. and Edward Eichel, "Kinsey, Sex and Fraud The Indoctrination of a People" (Lafayette, Louisiana Lochinvar-Huntington House, 1990). ISBN 0-910311-20-X. (Can also be obtained for 19.95 (US) from A-albionic Research, P.O. Box 20273, Ferndale, Michegan, 48220.)" [Dedicated] to the several hundred children who suffered inhumanely in the illegal sex experiments that constitute the basis for a significant portion of Dr. Alfred Kinsey's book "Sexual Behavior in the Human Male." Many of these children will still be alive today. It is also dedicated to those children who are being subjected to the kind of Kinseyan sex education curricula described in this book." YOU MUST READ THIS.
s. Charles W. Socarides, M.D., "Beyond Sexual Freedom" (New York Quadrangle, 1975). An overview of modern societal degeneration, including chapters on feminism, group-sex, communal living, pornography, homosexuality, and sex-mutilation surgery.
74 Bloss, P. "On Adolescence". N.Y. Free Press, 1961.
13 Dr. Joseph Nicolosi, "The California Psychologist," February, 1989.
69 "The Problem of Homosexuality." N.Y. Academy of Medicine. Bulletin. 40 576-580, 1964.
26 Soddy, K. (1954) "Homosexuality." Lancet, 267, 541.
68 ed. Mark Cook, Kevin Howells, "Adult Sexual Interest in Children," Academic Press, Toronto, 1981.
27 Lagache, D. (1950) "Homosexuality and Jealousy." International Journal of Psycho-analysis, 31, 24-31.
28 Lewinsky, H. (1952) "Features from a case of homosexuality." Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 21, 344-354.
29 Regardie, F.I. (1949) "Analysis of a homosexual." Psychiatric Quarterly, 23, 548-566.
30 Schwarz, H. (1952) "A case of character disorder." Bulletin of the Menninger Clinic, 16, 20-30.
W. D.J. West, "Homosexuality" (Chicago Aldine, 1968). An excellent summary of pre-1973 research although, even at that time, experts regularly gave in to homosexual pressure on the child-molestation issue.
31 London, L.S. and Caprio, F. S. (1950) "Sexual Deviations." Washington, Linacre Press.
32 Hamilton, D. M. (1939) "Some aspects of homosexuality in relation to total personality development." Psychiatric Quarterly, 13, 229-244.
33 Freeman, T. (1955) "Clinical and theoretical observations on male homosexuality." International Journal of Psycho-analysis, 36, 335-347.
34 Allen, C. (1958) "Homosexuality Its Nature, Causation and Treatment." London, Staples Press.
35 Lorand, S. (1951) "Clinical Studies in Psycho-analysis." New York, International Universities Press.
36 Apfelberg, B., et al. (1944) "A psychiatric study of 250 sex offenders." American Journal of Psychiatry, 100, 762-769.
37 Whitener, R. W. and Nikelly, A. G. (1964). "Sexual deviations in college students." American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 34, 486-492.
47 Cappon, D. (1965) "Towards an Understanding of Homosexuality." Englewood Cliffs, N.J., Prentice-Hall.
48 Bergler, E. (1951) "Neurotic Counterfeit-Sex." New York, Grune & Stratton.
76 Williams, Tennessee. "Confessional. Produced in N.Y. under the title "Small Craft Warnings", N.Y. New Directions, 1970.

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Kenneth Lyons #98: Wow, a special guest! Thanks a bunch for your input. I've studied a bit of psychology at college and uni (and also occasionally in my spare time), so Hank's lies were never going to convince me, but it's great to have someone like you here to reassure anyone not clued in on this stuff.

Thankfully, very few people will see Hank's ranting other than those currently arguing with him, seeing as how this thread has been off the front page for a long, long time now. And we can thank people like Will for baiting Hank into wasting his energy here.

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This is rubbish. When a friend of mine saw this, he asked that I interject from a professional standpoint. I am not gay, but I am a psychiatrist and a doctor by proferssion. I also hold a postgrad in Epidemiology.

Where are you getting this nonsense? Please, state your studies. And keep them recent and internationally recognised, not by fringe groups by socially prejudicial institutions like the Narth group mentioned previously by someone. They are not using scientific methods, and are considered biased in their agenda, and hence not recognised.

There is no evidence of your statement. All studies done, at least recognised studies using scientific controlled methodologies and sample size, are indicative of environment with prejudicial factors causing the increase in suicides among homosexual men, such as verbal/physical abuse, intolerance, social isolation and inability to build stable relationships. This is the professional consensus, not your insinuation that gay men have higher prevalence of mental health issues, BECAUSE they're gay. This is clearly your personal belief.

Hank, I do not know what you are trying to achieve here by your attempts to demean such a tragic situation like suicide with this nonsense. I can only assume you have a personal issue with homosexuals, perhaps negative encounters in your past that are affecting your own mental health. Either way, if find your use of fringe physiology to be offensive to my profession, and gay people in general. While I would never offer a professional opinion based on your statements, I suggest you speak to someone who can help professionally, a counsellor perhaps, it could help you find the reason for your anger, for your own sake.

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It's pathetic you're so mentally weak.

Answer the issues and questions put to you. Failure to do so, makes you more the idiot than I already think you are.

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I ask, where/how do you argue, counter with this earlier quote?

The Dutch have been considerably more accepting of same-sex relationships than other Western countries — in fact, same-sex couples now have the legal right to marry in the Netherlands. So a high rate of psychiatric disease associated with homosexual behavior in the Netherlands means that the psychiatric disease cannot so easily be attributed to social rejection and homophobia.

I'm not seeing where the Netherlands is much of a religious
thinking/acting country. Am I mistaken, and where can I see that
their religous bias/prejudice is influencing their politics or
social structure that influences the homosexual community
negatively?

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I agree it was a tragedy and Money obviously didn’t know what to do and he did everything wrong. But my point is not about a physical problem, my argument is about a psychological
problem – if a gay or lesbian is truly unhappy with their psyche's makeup, or with their images that are confusing them about their sexual inclinations or behavior.

So tell me, what if that person is totally unhappy with thinking or acting as a homosexual…are they just to “tough it out” and “be yourself?” That’s most bleak and discouraging to someone who truly wants to change. You’re saying, “it can’t be done,” …”you are who you are.”

Whether you accept it or not, there are cases where one did change into a heterosexual life. I do believe that it’s a huge undertaking, mentally and emotionally challenging, and can take many years — even up to 10 or more before a person is very happy with their change and any homosexual urges or emotions are not a problem, but a fleeting image, and their heterosexual mindset now is their normal way of thinking, feeling and acting out.

Human sexuality is a complex driving force for us and we don’t have all the answers – I don’t and you don’t. I don’t say that every homosexual should change, but when a person
sees where they are and where the majority of people are, and this person wants to change, we should offer all possible solutions to accommodate them.

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I dare you to show me where I ever said homosexuals have less right to live, or are “lesser” people. My argument with your agenda is that it’s not truthful plus is hateful towards the Christian marriage sacrament. You people would love to destroy our age-old marriage process because your definition of family is any combination of people “being married” – were it 2, 3, 4 or more individuals (any combination of male and female) because to you all that’s necessary is “love” or “lust” whichever is the driving force to be together.

I’m certain that most homosexuals consider bisexuality is OK….now, why isn’t bestiality OK too – it’s not hurting anyone and maybe the animal enjoys it too. And how about pederasty, why not lower the age limit to 13, or 14 so that children can marry without parental consent or have sexual relations with adults and not have it consider rape?

Also you answered, “ I guess that ends the argument — The Giant Brain has spoken!"Yes. It does. It better than your argument, which is a load of religious pseudo science

Well the” Great Brain” has arguments coming from numerous qualified APA members – I don’t know your man is a APA member, but he seems to be out of touch with most of the other members.
I’ll take the group consensus over one “great brain.”

Are all the psychiatrists who disagreed with the APA vote homophobic, inadequately trained, or sexually immature as they stated their position below?

"[I]n a deliberately planned campaign of intimidation and disruption, the U.S. National Gay and Lesbian Task Force (NGLTF), declaring that 'psychiatry is the enemy incarnate,'[25] actually managed to force a 1973 convention of the American Psychiatric Association (APA) to declare homosexuality, theretofore defined as deviant, 'a normal condition.'"[G374] It should be noted that only half of the APA members voted, and of these, only 58 percent agreed with the change.[G375] It should also be noted, that the study by the NIMH task-force which recommended the change did not include psychoanalytic clinicians.[R143]

"Even four years later, a survey of 2500 psychiatrists found that 69 percent believed homosexuality was 'a pathological adaptation.' About 18 percent disagreed; 13 percent were uncertain."[G375] The decision was the result of political pressure, not expert consensus.

"And homosexuals tended to feel the same way about themselves. About 25 percent believed their behaviour was an emotional disorder, and 37 percent answered they they were 'emotionally disturbed.' Young male homosexuals (14-21) commit suicide at two to three times the rate of heterosexuals (Paediatrics, June 1991). For all ages, their rate is six times that of heterosexuals."[G375]

"…many members of our profession still privately express the opinion that homosexual development is not normal. The 1973 ruling did not resolve the issue –it simply silenced 80 years of psychoanalytic observation."[13]

And how do you handle those who choose the homosexual lifestyle
because it's "cool," as seen by so many Hollywood people. They want to join in "being gay," to further their stardom, get in
with the homosexual directors, producers, promoters, etc. Can
you really call them gay, or faux-gays? and don't think that
individuals can't choose to be gay in many cases, for one
of many reasons.

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