As for broadmindedness – well, his views are put to the same scrutiny as everyone else's and they don't stand to reason. And tolerance has to be reciprocated. Skinner can't even tolerate criticism….

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. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

My question to David Skinner

Why is that Fundamentalist Christians are not into inclusion, diversity of opinion, broadmindedness, equality and tolerance of others.

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Of course scientists happily claim ignorance. You are the one who clims to have all the answers, what happened at the beginning of time and who was responsible. Funny how christians claim to be so humble, while making the most arrogant claims at the same time.

We are not exercising blind faith when we step into an aeroplane, or a lift, actually. We don't need to understand the laws of thermodynamics ourselves, but we can look them up, cross check with peer reviewed articles. We can even challenge them if a better explanation of the facts comes along.

We can use laws and theories to make precise predictions, whether it's quantum science, radioactive dating of rocks, finding fossils in rock layers. And so on.

Science works: aeroplanes and space shuttles fly; magic carpets and broomsticks don't. Your screeds are nothing but inane white noise; you make a whole lot of promises, without providing any way of testing your claims or any evidence whatsoever of any happy customers.

As for being convinced gay people cannot be happy – be honest, you're determined to ensure gay people will not be happy. People are usually happy when interfering religious crackpots like you aren't getting up everyone's noses.

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Let's take a look at what Biblical Christianity requires its credulous followers to believe:

YHVH/Elohim/God "the Father" is God
Jesus Christ "the Son" is God
The Holy Spirit is God

God had to sacrifice Himself to Himself in order to save believers from the Wrath of… Himself!

God was INCAPABLE of simple forgivenness in return for genuine repentance.

And if we don't believe this blasphemous nonsense we'll be tortured mercilessly forever!

Pull the other one, Christian, it's got bells on!

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You actually have to have some sort of evidence to make such a claim. If there was convincing enough evidence, I would also believe in a god. See, I'm not biased by any belief other than the desire to know the truth. Truth is not partisan, if a member of any sort of religion says "trust me" or "you'd have to be a Christian to understand", that's not impartial, falsifiable evidence, which is the only evidence that's actually worth anything – that's propaganda.

"As far as other religions are concerned,you have to ask yourself where are those nations that are governed by them? For instance if Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam are so great why is that we are not all flocking to live those countries instead of them flocking to live in the west? Do countries like North Korea, Afghanistan, Nepal and Burma suffer from illegal immigrants? Though it is true Britain is no longer a Christian country we live in its after – glow and are living off its inheritance, before we enter an age of barbarism. The West is a rotting carcase with people from distant lands flocking to feed off it."

Wait, so our prosperity is based on Christianity and not conveniently timed scientific and engineering advances which gave us a headstart on other nations, thus allowing us to plunder, conquer and exploit them, gaining huge wealth and influence in the process? Huh. You learn something new every day. Cut the crap and tell me why Christianity is so much better than other religions. And try to do it without using specious circular arguments.

"What do I think about people who cross dress just for fun? I presume you are talking about Fred Emery, Barry Humphries and Les Dawson? Hilarious."

I'm not as into pop culture as you seem to be, so I'm not entirely sure who those people are. I was talking about your everyday non-celebrity cross-dressers. Casual ones, too, not those who do it as part of some sort of act.

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What are you certain of?

We find out if something is true if it survives severe testing and from what I have experienced in my own life and seen in that of others the Bible accords with history and reality. No other book has been able to make so many precise and accurate predictions; there are three hundred alone, made centuries before, concerning the coming of Jesus Christ.
As far as other religions are concerned,you have to ask yourself where are those nations that are governed by them? For instance if Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam are so great why is that we are not all flocking to live those countries instead of them flocking to live in the west? Do countries like North Korea, Afghanistan, Nepal and Burma suffer from illegal immigrants? Though it is true Britain is no longer a Christian country we live in its after – glow and are living off its inheritance, before we enter an age of barbarism. The West is a rotting carcase with people from distant lands flocking to feed off it.

What do I think about people who cross dress just for fun? I presume you are talking about Fred Emery, Barry Humphries and Les Dawson? Hilarious.

Must go now.

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Oh, also…

"Joking apart, our low self – esteem often comes from the way our parents treated us. For homosexual men it can be that they never received affirmation from their fathers and so in a way they are constantly searching for the father they never had. What starts off as an emotional search in child hood becomes fixed when puberty and sexual attraction kick in. Homosexual friends and colleagues I have known invariably had distant and cold relationships with their fathers, whilst their overbearing mothers treated them as their little “man.”"

Yeah, you actually have to have some sort of evidence to back up claims like this. Psychology is a science, not a rhetoric device. Where's your sources?

PS: The rest of your rambling is also hilarious (but eventually boring – you overdid it this time) bullshit, but I just felt like homing in on the pseudo-science, because I likes my psychology and nobody'd mentioned it yet.

PPS: Just for fun, what's your opinion on people who cross-dress for fun (as in, not for fetishy or sexual purposes, 'cos I know you hate those)?

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What is your agenda on here ?

*To save gay souls for Jesus?

*To persuade gays that they should not expect to have the same
rights and dignties as heterosexuals?

*To persuade gays that they need to stop being homosexual and get
therapy to become heterosexual?

You know that this is a website dedicated to gay rights . . . so I am a little confused why you are here . . . some clarification.

We are clear what this website is about . . . your presence here is not so clear

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When you recommend that God could just have forgiven us, you know perfectly well that no one thinks like this. There is no one who would forgive a court for forgiving a Stalin, Hitler, Saddam Hussein, a mass murderer or Moira Hindley and Ian Brady. Everyone demands justice, especially their victims. But moreover, when we commit crimes against one another it is against God Himself that we transgress for we are his ultimate and most prized creation.

But the world is in such a worsening state that only a judge whose standards of moral integrity are humanly impossible will be able to save us and herein lies our problem; unless the judge is corrupt and evil like us, he will inevitably come to hate all that we do and think, but if he is not a pure and absolutely just authority then we are also lost. As C.S. Lewis said, “He, the source of all our justice and goodness, would not only be the only comfort, he would also be the supreme terror; the person we must need and the person we most want to hide from. He would be our only possible ally, and we would make ourselves his enemy.”
But worst of all is that even if we wanted to change our ways, we have neither the power or will to change. Even if someone foots the bill for us once, what is to stop us from repeat offending?

Have looked at the state of Britain, let alone the world today? Human nature is not improving and as technology exponentially develops so man becomes more capable of self destruction. People everywhere are anxious about the future – especially that of our children. Call it Satan or whatever, but evil is an ever present and growing reality.

Where is help to come from?

Why should the fact that Jesus Christ came two thousands years ago to conquer the power of sin, lift me , as you put it, over the impossibly high bar, take away the consequences of sin (which is death), defeat Satan and promise to come again some day to bring in his perfect rule fill me with depression.? This is truly something to celebrate.

As for thinking naughty thoughts 1 John 1:8- 10 says, “If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

And what about “The LORD is compassionate and gracious; slow to anger, abounding in love. He will not always accuse, nor will he harbour his anger forever; he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities. For as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his love for those who fear him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us. As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust. As for man, his days are like grass, he flourishes like a flower of the field; the wind blows over it and it is gone, and its place remembers it no more. But from everlasting to everlasting the LORD's love is with those who fear him and his righteousness with their children's children- with those who keep his covenant and remember to obey his precepts.” (From psalm 103)

FlapJack you have been had: deceived. Go back and read the Bible again. With the vast amount of internet Bible studies available you have no excuse for not getting your questions answered. But maybe like Pilate you are not interested in the Truth?

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Mr Flapjack, You obviously didn’t flagelate yourself enough, although I understand that at the Folsom Street Fair and other venues, far from inducing the bad feel factor the use of the cat- o -nine tails actually heightens sexual pleasure. So which is it: feel bad or feel good?

Joking apart, our low self – esteem often comes from the way our parents treated us. For homosexual men it can be that they never received affirmation from their fathers and so in a way they are constantly searching for the father they never had. What starts off as an emotional search in child hood becomes fixed when puberty and sexual attraction kick in. Homosexual friends and colleagues I have known invariably had distant and cold relationships with their fathers, whilst their overbearing mothers treated them as their little “man.”

Jo Nicolosi from NARTH could tell you far more about this than me.

As for not being able to love others when we hate ourselves, I absolutely agree. But I am not talking about self-esteem or loving ourselves but the love and esteem that Father God has for us. I feel valued because God values me . He valued me so much that he did not leave in the fallen state but cleaned me up and put me back on my feet. Jesus Christ did for me what I could not do for myself which was to foot the bill for my rebellion against God, clean me up on the inside and put His nature within me. No amount of Do – It – Yourself improvement schemes or bogus feel good exercises can alter the fact that human nature is morally and intellectually bankrupt – just like the present government – and needs saving.

In my opinion your self improvement and self esteem programmes are doomed to failure, beside which God loves us infinitely more than we ever could. Our love for ourselves by comparison with the love God has for us is still self- loathing.

Comment by Flapjack — May 17, 2009 @ 10:07
David Skinner what is your agenda on here ?
*To save gay souls for Jesus?
*To persuade gays that they should not expect to have the same
rights and dignties as heterosexuals?
*To persuade gays that they need to stop being homosexual and get
therapy to become heterosexual?
You know that this is a website dedicated to gay rights . . . so I am a little confused why you are here . . . some clarification.
We are clear what this website is about . . . your presence here is not so clear

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*To save gay souls for Jesus?

*To persuade gays that they should not expect to have the same
rights and dignties as heterosexuals?

*To persuade gays that they need to stop being homosexual and get
therapy to become heterosexual?

You know that this is a website dedicated to gay rights . . . so I am a little confused why you are here . . . some clarification.

We are clear what this website is about . . . your presence here is not so clear

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As for human rights, that is some phoney humanist invention cooked up by men. We are either slaves to ourselves, our own fallen nature and ultimately Satan, or we accept the fact that Jesus Christ has bought us at a great price by dying on the cross and that now ownership has passed to him. To think that we are independent and autonomous is a delusion; none of us is God. Our only freedom is to choose to follow Jesus Christ – only if and when the offer is made . Until that happens we have no option but to do Satan’s bidding.

Thereafter to follow Jesus Christ in our own strength is a human impossibility we have to be filled with the Holy Spirit who then enables us to do His works and not our own. This transformation following the transaction from one master to another, takes a life time with steps taken forward and steps taken backwards, but all the time Christ has us by the collar, even when we fall down. The result is that over time we find that we are hungry only for things that will do us good and not harm. Our desires change for the good things God wants to give us and not for the poison offered by Satan- for doing good and not evil.

Jesus Christ came to the outcasts and those felt “crap about themselves,” who felt hungry and dissatisfied with their lives, such like the Samaritan woman at the well and the crooked tax collector, Zacchae’us, spoken of in John’s Gospel chapter 4 and Luke Chapter 19, respectively. Christ certainly never came to the proud and self- righteous.

I am convinced that below the surface of gay pride there exists neither gaiety or pride- only bondage, loneliness and despair.

C.S. Lewis, talking about the Christian message, said:-
“…. It does not begin in comfort; it begins in dismay…and it is no use at all trying to go on to that comfort without first going through that dismay. In religion, as in war and everything else, comfort is the one thing you cannot get by looking for it. If you look for truth, you may find comfort in the end. If you look for comfort you will not get either comfort or truth- only soft soap and wishful thinking to begin with and, in the end, despair.”

If you know the Truth, the Truth will make you free.

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“Madam would you like your little children to grow up as gay?” “Oh yes I want” is hardly the answer we would expect. She might answer instead, “! will continue to love them no matter how they grow up.” But that was not the question.

Ben Summerskill knew that the public would not willingly embrace homosexuality and so he has resorted to using coercion through publicly humiliating people at the annual Stonewall Awards ceremonies. Public figures who try to uphold family values are dubbed “bigot of the year” and are expected to attend these glittering gatherings in order to receive this “award.”
He has used his influence on the government, ever since Tony Blair ticked the shopping list that Ian McKellen presented to him in 1997, so as to bring in oppressive measures that end up with people, like the Bishop of Hereford and Scottish firemen being fined, dismiss them from their jobs, or having their businesses closed down. A friend of mine, Tom Forest, who runs a bed and breakfast in Scotland told me that the had to have police protection from homosexuals who had threatened to visit unspeakable violence on his wife and burn his guest house, because he refused a double bed to a gay couple.

Ben Summerskill has systematically used bully tactics to impose homosexuality in schools, not just through indoctrination but getting those teachers who disagree with him, removed from their jobs.

However, apart from using propaganda designed to spread the lie that homosexuals are being bullied and murdered disproportionately to the rest of the population and guiding the Gay Police Association and the Minority Support police to abuse their powers of arrest, he has now worked himself to the position where can demand from Gordon Brown measures that will gag anyone from expressing doubts about the homosexual life- style. Shortly, if this law is passed this year, I may well be facing a prison sentence of seven years for voicing just a fraction of the views that I have aired here- certainly longer than Boy George has for his crimes of sado- masochism.

What Ben Summerskill seems to overlook is that if he succeeds in getting a clause through parliament this summer that would deem my comments an incitement to homophobic hatred, the Muslims will, as night follows day, demand to have the incitement to religious speech crime which they were denied at the beginning of 2006. In an email that I sent him he seemed to be very sanguine about the fact that he is opening the door to Shariah in this country. “They can only kill me once.” was his reply.
Finally, or nearly so, when you say that I should not be concentrating on the sexual side of homosexuality, please tell me how else I am to recognise it from any other type of sexual orientation? We are not talking here about stamp collecting or knitting. We are talking about Gaydar and the Fulsom Street fair. A disproportionate number of homosexuals, like Lord Chris Smith, are distinguished from others by carrying the effects of sexually transmitted diseases; and if the gays insist on having their blood accepted into the National Blood Bank, I say OK; but in same way that you want gay only bars, gay rugby clubs, gay days at London Zoo, I would demand that you have gay only blood banks – don’t mix it with my blood.

What militant gays don’t seem to have understood is that by relentlessly driving the homosexual agenda forward through the influence of people like Peter Mandelson, Angela Eagle, Chris Byant,Ben Bradshaw, Angela Mason, Spencer Livermor and Gandalf aka Ian McKellan, the public are becoming more and polarised, many of whom are heading towards the doors of the BNP. Violence is in the air all right and the gays have contributed towards this break down in social order and cohesion. If you push people far enough you will reap a whirlwind.

The very people who could save you, the Christians, you persecute and slander, whilst you provoke and encourage the BNP , the Muslims and other extremists who have no regard for law, least of talking to you as I am doing now.

Something you don’t seem to understand is that I and every human being have aspects of their character that they would prefer people not to know about. My battle is not against you personally but the evil I find in myself and the powers of this world. Maybe none of this makes any sense to you?

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Mr Harry Hammond a 65 year old street preacher, in 2001, in Bournemouth, felt deeply offended and threatened by the way Gays were taking over the centre of Bournemouth. In response he displayed placards that read ‘Stop Immorality’, ‘Stop Homosexuality’ and ‘Stop Lesbianism.’ About 30 gays, who obviously felt offended by this, attacked him, knocking him to the ground and pelting him with soil and water. Even though he was the one who was physically assaulted, the Crown Prosecution Service had him fined £300 with £350 court costs, plus the receipt of a criminal record for inviting this attack
upon himself. He died a few months later. His attackers walked away scott- even.

Even Peter Tatchell, bless, and give him his due he has courage, was appalled by this miscarriage of justice.

One only has to look at Ben Summerskill to see the spectre of sodhimmitude. But more of this later.

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What exaclty do you mean by the following (from thread 21)
* Sodhimmitude
* Fascist homosexuality?

I am waiting for you answer

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