Some people (above) have said that the Poll was poorly conducted because it was conducted by a group (The Coexist Foundation) that has no skill in conducting valid surveys.

Consequently I decided that I would write to Coexist and question them as to the methods used.

I have received the following reply from their Coordinator. She advises that Coexist had no part in the conducting of the actual survey. The survey was carried out by Gallup, experts in their field.

The letter reads:

"I should clarify that the Coexist Foundation has had no involvement in the design or the analysis of the polling data.  This is exclusively Gallup’s work – what we have done, in our partnership with them, is to help disseminate the findings so that the public can have a better sense of what Muslims believe – rather than what politicians, pundits and other self-appointed spokespeople would have them believe!  In Gallup’s words, the aim of this process is to “democratise the debate” and allow a voice for ordinary people…

If you are interested in finding out more about Gallup’s work, might I point you to ?  

All good wishes, and thank you again for taking the trouble to write.

Bridget Flavell
Coordinator,  The Coexist Foundation
17-19 Bedford Street
London WC2E 9HP"

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starjack.com /qmr.html

Many gay people also use the web forum of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain [ex-muslim. org. uk] .

Obviously put www in front of the above links and remove the spaces.

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During highschool I had rather germans mocking me for being gay , then the turkish students.They didnt say anything in front of me nor did they threaten me or something.All I can assume is that the worst thing the muslim students have done was talking behind my back.But it didnt stop them from hangin around with me or talking to me,but they have never asked me if I'm gay.

I am more of less open ,but I also know about turkish or even muslim gays, who are more open bout themselves then me.Of course there are the horror stories bout homophobic parents aswell.
But when you are part of three minority groups, the sexual orientation, the ethnic group and the religion.Then you learn to forget to see the world in certain groups or cliche's.
I know total atheists but who are homophobic as fuck.And I also know some total religious muslims who helped me out alot even tho they know im gay.

All I wanna say is that especially we gays should stop differing the world in black and white. There is a huge grey zone in everything.Many ppl dont even know that the religious wedding ceremony is written for "partners".There is no word of a husband and a wife.Many ppl dont even know that there is no certain prohibition of being gay according to the Quran.There is only one passage of comdemning the ppl of Sodom and Gomorrha who wanted to do something "which hasnt been done before". And I highly doubt that homosexuality wasnt there before in Sodom and the world.
So many reasons why even some Muslim clerics have and still are performing the wedding ceremony for same sex muslim couples…..

But its also the fact that the muslim ppl had alot of troubles and wars going on the past 100 years….and the recent war on terror marks most of us as mere suspects of being terrorists then hard working citizens.and all these years of narrow mindness brought up more negative then positive effects on gay ppl….

I just hope that we can reach the point where both sides can be more open minded and respectfull to each other…..

Inshallah

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That is a difficult and unfortunate situation for sure but you are wrong to say you have no choice in the matter.

Do you have a job?
Are you financially independent from your family?
Do you have your own place to live away from your family?

You need to arrange a job and apartment for yourself; get connected to some other Pakistani gay muslims and inform your family that you are not going to participate in a charade of a life.

It will be difficult and lonely but ultimately will make you happier than by living a fake half life with a wife (who also doesn;t deserve a half marriage).

Difficult as it may be you need to stand up to your family on this. Unless you do then things will never change

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Take care and look after yourself – x A

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Only a scholar or a fellow-academic could possibly know about the Islamic enlightenment of the 12th century, and I cannot thank you enough for bringing that up on this thread.

Among other things, it gives me an occasion to thank Islam for people like Kindi (c. 870), Avicenna (980-1036), Averroes (1126-1198) and Maimonides (1135-1204) who preserved and improved the works of Aristotle (while the RCC was burning every scrap of Greek philosophy 'it' could put its hands on, except the 'beloved' Plato of course), and passing it on to Europe whose uuniversities proceeded to produce ingeneous men like Roger Bacon (1214-1294), Duns Scotus (1270-1308) and my personal favorite William of Occam (1290-1349) in spite of the RCC's attempt to shut them up with threats of excommunication and spending eternity in the flames and strench of an imaginary never-never land which is rooted in the Tuscan paleolithic mythology, not the Bable as so many RCC self-serving idiots try to make us believe.

In many ways, it would be important to let Muslim immigrants know how much we value the important contribution they have made to western civilisation, and the same applies to Jewish scholars who are simply too numerous to name.

Hats off to you, buddy.

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I was wrong, 100% wrong, when I said to you the other day: "Don't be like that." Do you get it?

You have taught me something that nobody else could have taught me: I can be 100% wrong and believe I am 100% right.

You have proven how swifly it can be done too, which is what the UK needs to do with extrememist muslim immigrants, and you've got your work cut out for you if ever you decide on tackling that issue.

Not only is the gay community in the UK contaminated with losers like Eddy and Keith who enjoy tormenting the LGBT's under pretext of teaching them how to grow up and become like them who are so, so 'world wise' and basically anarchists, the British society has become contaminated with a few muslim extremists who would want LGBT persons dead.

However, I agree wholehearttedly with Sister Mary Clarence who has proven time and again, and so has charlene in her own sweet way, that the real threat to the LGBT community is people like Eddy and Keith who, like you say, are shit-stirring s.o.b.'s. You were just too decent and polite to correct me the first time around, and I thank you for that.

Follow your instinct, Rob. Go for it.

What confused me about you is that you seem to drop out of sight whenever either one of those bastards give you a going over. You no doubt have a good reason for that, and it's none of my f*cking business.

As for being an Acadian, all I feel like telling anybody about that right now is that I am a direct descendant of the first French settlers to establish themselves in Eastern Canada (The New World) in 1642, and that we, that is a family committee of which I was a member for years, have traced our French ancestry as far back as the nobility of 1247, and in a place called Lyon in France.

I got so fed up of this committee who thought of being Acadian as being more important than being a human being, that I told every last one of them to FUCK OFF, and that's why I am now alienated from my relatives and you know what…I don't give a shit. I'm doing just fine, if not better.

I am alive because my father, a chronic alcoholic who began drinking rot gut gin at 12 years old, raped my mother, and enough said about dear old Dad. Sometimes I wish I had shot him instead of his f*cking goat. And to think that he went around telling everybody that I was his favorite son when in reality he never gave me me a moment's notice.

Having a cultural heritage doesn't necessarily make someone lucky. The proof of that is that the younger generations of Acadians, once they have completed their education or mastered a trade (which is where the real money is, by the way), get as far away from their families as they can, Vancouver and Edmunton being the favorite spots to start a new life at the moment, which is where my niece and her Bosnian husband now live.

Let me just say a word about 'being born under pyrex'. You are the first test tube baby I have ever met. Allow me to tell you that you are a human being before being anything else, and that applies to being a member of a gay community.

There is no real gay community, just gay people who enjoy talking to each other once in a while and then life goes on as usual. Also, the LGBT population is now targetted by the Pink Market, business enterprises who rake in millions of dollars a years catering to LGBT persons.

And in the free market society in which we live, there's nothing wrong with making a profit anyway you can.

There's absolutely nothing illegal or immoral about being a test tube baby. Who knows, with the growing rate of disfunctional families, you are probably better off than most people.

I can't explain it; it's certainly not because I want to get into your pants (I am in a loving 19-year-old same-sex relationship, and we are both monogamus), but there is something about the way you write that I really like, and I wouldn't change a thing about you, not a thing.

Cyberspace hug, man. And please don't feel obliged to answer this post. xoxoxo!

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If so, it does seem to skirt around the obvious and draw some rather tenuous assertions.

Could you maybe just run through the most obvious ones to start with and maybe then we can move on to some of the others I've got lined up.

I am getting a bit frustrated I have to say having to repeatedly ask for the same thing. I am, dare I say it, losing confidence that you are capable of actually doing any sort of rudimentary analysis of either data set, irrespective of your huffing and puffing. I would even go further and suggest that your huffing and puffing might be intended to disguise the fact that when it comes down to it, you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about.

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What is also interesting is the Islamic enlightnement in the 12 century, centuries before the European enlightment. . . and how the early Islamic enlightment lead to major developents in the arts and sciences and philosophy.

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To make such a claim knowing that one cannot substantiate it often reveals a lack of integrity. A lack of congruity and intellectual honesty. But one does not expect such qualities from a Tory – and one can particularly not expect integrity from the strange twisted self-hating creature that is a Gay Tory.

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The results of the Gallup Poll hit the media on the 7th of May. That's FOUR days ago. Note well that it was very very widely reported, not only here in the UK but also abroad, particularly in the light of its finding with regard to the attitude of UK-based Muslims to homosexuality. However, there appears to have been no widespread or single outspoken contradiction of it by UK-based Muslims in that period. There certainly has not, to the best of my knowledge, even been a furious and indignant rejection of its findings by any group of UK-based Muslims.

Might it be simply because in fact all the published results of the Gallup-Coexist Poll, including its starkest finding – actually reflect the convictions of most UK-based Muslims – who are, of course, involved in heterosexual lifestyles?

In other words, the Gallup Poll published on 7 May reflects reality pretty accurately. Like it or lump it.

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It has occurred to me to see what users of the Imaan (gay Muslim) website might have said about the matter in the last four days on their own Forum – particularly as Imaan members are generally young thinking Muslims, many of them students.

But, unfortunately, even THERE, amongst UK-based gay Muslims, I have found no disputing of the Poll. No refuting of its findings whatsoever. And I have searched every thread within the entire Forum. The subject of the finding of the Gallup poll goes completely unspoken. Clearly it is a fact of life for all UK-based Muslims. They have nothing to discuss regarding the matter.

What I HAVE found, however, are the following statements among users' postings. Unfortunately, they prove the sad plight of gay Muslims in this country due to the wider Muslim attitude to homosexuality – as revealed by the Gallup Poll. (All of the following posts are from different posters at the site.)

"Looking to have a relationship with a gay Muslim will lessen your chances to find anyone in the first place – how many Gay Muslims are out there and of those that are out there, how many are going to be open about it for you to know they are gay which will lead to a relationship?"

"For me it's not a matter of preferring non-Muslims over Muslims. I just don't know enough gay Muslims to get friendly with."

"If you are going to go out with muslims only that's a bit dumb and ironic don't you think? Since homsexuality isn't allowed in the first place! So just go out with any race, I have done it with jewish guys…they are awesome!"

"when i was with a white woman, and I split up with her, she decided to make life difficult for me by trying to tell my family I was gay cos she knew what that would do…..if she understood our culture/religion, even your worst enemy wouldnt do that."

"we keep getting told that sexuality has everything to do with part of being a good Muslim. Hence why we as gay people are always put down by the straight Muslims. Why is sexuality so important? Is it because we are not using our sexual organs in ways of creating the next generation? We keep getting told that being gay is a choice. However we all pray if that was true. I for one for a long time prayed to be straight so i could save my family from the humiliation of having a gay son. Dont get me wrong I am now happy to be who I am – gay."

"I am a 29yrso cross dresser, my younger brother is 5yrs younger than me and he has found out alot of things that i wouldnt like him to know from an X friend and is basicly giving me threats of telling my mum and other memebers of the family what i get upto…and he said if i dont change in 2 months he will tell the whole family. He also wants me to end it with my fiance which i have been with for 4yrs coz she is white. He has also been giving me death threats too."

"I dont know if this will help but ive had some close calls and ive been questioned by some friends and even some family……they want to hear that its not tru. they want u to say its false. They dont want it to be tru. My advice is to deny it….what ever ur brother says, what ever he show ur family…. deny it…. they will believe you becasue they dont want to believe its tru, because its easier to believe its a lie… than facing the truth. deny it! i wish u all the best!"

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All of the above posts reveal the awful plight of gay and lesbian Muslims in the UK today. Note, however, that the Imaan website shows that some GAY and LESBIAN Muslims are getting on with practising their homosexual orientation REGARDLESS of the disapproval of the GENERAL Muslim community.

And this is where I think a number of people in this thread have been in error. The Gallup Poll reflects what a fair sampling of UK MUSLIMS in general think about homosexuality. It does not reflect the view of that very small number of Muslims who identify as gay or lesbian. Why not? Because THEY weren't specifically targeted. As the Gallup report clearly states, the people questioned were UK Muslims. Perhaps one or two secretly gay or lesbian Muslims were caught in the cohort of those questioned . . . but as we can see from the true expressions from the Imaan Forum above, the general feeling of UK gay or lesbian Muslims is that if you choose to practise your homosexual inclinations you keep it quiet.

This said, this is my last post on this thread. I hope those who have not so far accepted that UK Muslims in general do not approve of homosexuality really do learn something from the above.

My final word is this: beware woolly thinking and all woolly thinkers.

Eddy.

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And they made the same kind of racist comments then that Lukie and others do now.

This huge influx of foreign cultures had very beneficial effects on Rome. It stirred up and enriched the gene pool then and it's doing it now in England and the US. But far and away the most beneficial effect of that earlier wave of immigration was that it caused any number of unwanted cerebral and cardiac events among Roman traditionalists and bigots.

"To knock a thing down, especially if it is cocked at an arrogant angle, is a deep delight of the soul." Santayana

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Oh. As for you being Acadian (?), that's lucky, coz I was born under Pyrex. (I was a test-tube baby)

Rob

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"The problem I think we have is that we don't want a homogenous society, with homogeneous social and moral attitudes (we've always been pretty tolerant of differences and diversity here in the UK compared to most other countries), BUT can we tolerate a section of our society causing pain (or worse) to its own gays and lesbians? Isn't it wrong to do so? We've taken a stance against misogynistic murder ("honour killings") in Islamic families, as well as against female mutilation in another section of immigrants, so why not also against the denial of gay rights to young people in Islamic families?"

Deidre I interested in the issue you raise with regards to the denial of gay rights in Islamic families, and it seems like more research is needed to highlight the particular problems LGBT Muslims face.

It is worth checking out a UK study by Anita Pilgrim into the opression faced by LGBT Muslims

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Look, I do not like people giving me advise from the peanut gallery and I do not want you to do differently, so you can listen to me or not, OK.

But and however, do you not know how to ignore certain despicable persons?

Let me tell you what I do, and then you can work on a version of it for yourself if you want to. Why? Because I want to read your posts, that's why.

In fact, I believe you have something to teach this old fart that nobody else can teach me.

The first thing I do when I see a post, whether it is addressed to me or not, is to find out who sent it in.

If it is sent in by Keith or Eddy (or Geoff, who is one of Eddy's other personalities), I just skip over it, and I certainly do not reply to it.

People will ignore you too, just as people ignore me and others on these posts. C'est la vie.

Chances are Eddy and Keith will post with new names, if they haven't already done so because I believe they are both multi-personality pshychotics who are not sick enough to be institutionalized, but not well enough to mix with ordinary people.

Either that or there is too much camel shit mixed into their hashish.

My lawyer told me to feel secure in speaking my mind on this matter.

My point is, you will not be missing anything by ignoring them, or anybody else for that matter, including me.

I am 65 in June, and, being Acadian, I have suffered most of my life from being overly sensitive. So there!

STEVE(2) (191):

Right on, my man!

SISTER MARY CLARENCE (192, 205):

Boys-o-boys, can you swing a bat or what!!

Home run…again !!!!!!

As for what's-his-name, you've got him down with your foot firmly pressing on his throat. Take an example from him and give him a taste of his own medicin: allow yourself to be a 'tad' ruthless!

S (196):

Thanks for for your precious input. More please. Don't be afraid of us. We are harmless, except that I for one am inclined to babble on and on and on…. and no-one ever tells me to shut up!

Riverside Rob (200):

Except for your last few lines of ranting, I love your ideas.

Have you thought of repeating everything you've written here to 'www dot PlanetOut dot com' in the USA and don't stop repeating until they acknowledge you and give you an answer. It is a global network, and a very busy website.

PUSS IN BOOTS (201):

Interesting, very interesting!

ANTHONY (202)

Interesting, very interesting!

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Let's start with the poll I provided for you. I'm waiting for your comments on the hugely different results.

It is a good poll to start the discussion on I'm sure you'll agree and using your knowledge and experience of all things Muslim, it would be really helpful if you could share with everyone why there is such a difference in the views expressed in the two polls.

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