Your summary of her statements runs as follows:

1. Gay people have "feelings that they don’t want".
2. They have these feelings "for whatever reason".
3. These feelings cause "struggling with guilt and pain".
4. "Reparative Therapy" helps.

You then attempt to substitute an innocuous and neutral pursuit of mathematical study with sexual activity. This is dishonest for you and everyone knows that unwanted pregnancies, abortions, paedophilia, sexually transmitted diseases- not to mention the misery caused through adultery, divorce and crimes of passion -are never the result of learning times tables or doing quadratic equations:-

1. Some clever maths students have feelings they don't want.
2. These students have these feelings "for whatever reason".
3. These feelings cause "struggling with guilt and pain".
4. Willing themselves to not like Maths & Science helps.

Corinna said that gay people are unhappy for whatever reason; but you immediately claim that this is because of homophobia, never allowing the fact that a gay person might have these feelings irrespective of societal pressures:-

1. Some gay people are unhappy being who they are.
2. They are unhappy because of frightening homophobia which has come at them from a number of different sources.
3. The homophobia makes them feel guilt and pain.
4. They need caring professional support until such time as they develop strategies to deal with all sources of homophobia and they can stand up and say, "I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses".

So if we apply your logic to psychopaths we have:

1. Psychopaths have feelings they don’t want (The good that they would do they don’t do and the evil that they would not do they do).

2. Psychopaths are not happy in their skins for any number of reasons, one of which may well be because they know that murder ends in personality disintegration and judgement

3. These feelings of guilt and fear cause torment

4. In order to take away these feelings of anxiety and torment they need assurance and acceptance from the rest of society that mass murder is just OK and part of parcel of their natures. Or as Popeye the Sailor Man said, “I yam what I yam.”

Phil it’s time to morph. All things are possible with God.

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Corrina, I am sure you try as best you can to be a good Christian. But stop and take a look at what you've written!

You wrote: "It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want."

The above does not make ANY rational sense.

Let me unpack it for you (as any teacher or professor in logic would, in any philosophy department anywhere in the world).

1. Gay people have "feelings that they don’t want".
2. They have these feelings "for whatever reason".
3. These feelings cause "struggling with guilt and pain".
4. "Reparative Therapy" helps.

This is what you stated, Corrina.

However, when your statement is dissected and it is put into the above sequential order, it becomes clear there is a lot of information being left out.

Your point "No. 2″ is VERY VERY IMPORTANT, Corrina: you cannot just swish by and get away with not going into "for whatever reason". That is intellectually unacceptable. We cannot afford to be intellectually lazy.

So what ARE the reasons which your statement has not acknowledged in your Point No.2?

Corrina, the reason why some gay people have "feelings that they don’t want", is because the attitude of unloving, unsupportive, parents and peers and certain other sections of society makes them very fearful indeed of carrying their identity with dignity. Homophobic bullies in many guises make some gay and lesbian people deeply frightened of accepting their sexual orientation. In particular, all the different voo-doo hocus-pocus made-up nonsense of the world's many different religions are greatly responsible for making gay and lesbian people fearful of accepting their sexual orientation. And let us remember that some young gay and lesbian people are so frightened of carrying their intrinsic sexual identity with pride that they attempt suicide or succeed in committing suicide. And we must also remember that even the most well-adjusted gay or lesbian person still has to be careful in today's world in certain places or at certain times, because of homophobia. You must have read about the regular knifings, stabbings, and beatings which gay and lesbian people are subjected to.

Consideration of your "Point No. 2″ obviously now explains the reality of your "Point No. 3″, namely that 'These feelings cause "struggling with guilt and pain".' As we have seen by carefully examining your "Point No. 2″ it is NOT the homosexual "feelings" which cause the "struggling with guilt and pain". No, it is the information missing in "Point No. 2″ which causes the guilt and pain, namely the homophobia, the bullying, the finger-pointing, and the stigma that is generally part-and-parcel of any of the world's many different religions.

So now, Corrina, that we have acknowledged the reasons why some gay people have "feelings that they don’t want", you should be able to see that the 4th part of your proposition, namely that '"Reparative Therapy" helps' is a non-sequitur. To any honest thinking person it is unacceptable. (A non-sequitur is an inference or a conclusion which just does not follow from the premisses, i.e. the previous parts of the over-all statement.)

To make this all clear, let me give you an analogy.

What you said is like saying:

1. Some clever maths students have feelings they don't want.
2. These students have these feelings "for whatever reason".
3. These feelings cause "struggling with guilt and pain".
4. Willing themselves to not like Maths & Science helps.

And then along come some people who run a business organization that has really got it in for Maths and those highly gifted students who are so good at Maths and they set up a Conference to help these "nerdy geeks" to will themselves NOT to be so gifted at the subject. Corinna heard about this conference and blithly said: "It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want." For her it's as simple as that. But as we have seen, she hasn't examined things closely at all.

But now that Corrina has looked at things closely with regard to the plight of gay and lesbian people, she realises that she and NARTH and many religious groups need to reformulate their attitude, as follows:

1. Some gay people are unhappy being who they are.
2. They are unhappy because of frightening homophobia which has come at them from a number of different sources.
3. The homophobia makes them feel guilt and pain.
4. They need caring professional support until such time as they develop strategies to deal with all sources of homophobia and they can stand up and say, "I am what I am, and what I am needs no excuses".

Corinna, there are many groups, including Christian groups, who do this valuable work of reaching out and finding those vulnerable young gay and lesbian people who need some assistance in learning to combat the awful, often unthinking, homophobia that continues unabated in our society today. Why don't you join one and see what they're like?

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“In defence of conference – it is to help people with unwanted homosexual feelings.
If you don’t have unwanted homosexual feelings, then why should it bother you? Just get on with life. This conference is not homophobia.It’s an attempt to help people who for whatever reason are struggling with guilt and pain because of feelings that they don’t want.
Some people are happy being gay, some are not. They have a different experience of homosexuality than you, it doesn’t make them wrong.”

Corrina . . .

You speak of unwanted homosexual feelings as if they were abstract things?

If you kill a homosexual inside a person . . . what is there to stop you from killing a real homosexual person? Well, . . If you can treat the inner homosexual with the contempt that is need to get rid of them in the first place, I feel there is very little to stop you emotionally form killing a real homosexual person.

If you were not frightened of the persons homosexuality you would never be thinking of it as unwanted in the first place . . . it is only unwanted because its is unacceptable in your mind . . . and this is called homophobia.

. . . and you do this in the name of Jesus . . . Jesus who preached love and tolerance.

How perverse is that . . . its curious that you cannot see this?

You are very DESTRUCTIVE and SICK aren’t you Corrina

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What a secret Nazi regime they operate. . .

To all you homo haters who are reading these blogs . . .

We are opening up your concentration camps to reveal to the world how sick and perverted you really are.

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JohnK I take it you've seen the conference materials on zefrog.blogspot.com ?

"For security reasons please do keep this information confidential. We ask that you bring with you to the conference (i) a printed copy of this letter and (ii) some form of identification (e.g. driving licence, bank card) which you will need to show at the first of two registration desks."

You're bang on. Something's got to be wrong about what these charlatans are peddling if they have a habit of such stringent screening out of dissenters. And I saw a post somewhere saying that all yesterday they had four big bodyguards on the door (as well as a bobby).

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Indeed, apart from the religious commandments, you seem like a nice person.

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They think they can still exterminate us in the secret behind, closed doors; but this time its not the gas chambers it’s the therapists consulting room.

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What difference does it make?

As for Corrina, you seem like you'd be a nice person if you hadn't been indoctrinated. Your words, while sounding pleasant, are insidious. You have no idea of the sorts of mental anguish that can come from being denied the support and acceptance of your loved ones. If I ever met someone who treated one of my loved ones to such sugar-coated bigotry, I would let them know exactly what I think of bullies.

By the way, why do religious people seem to think that a god's existence is enough reason to worship it? If the Christian god existed, I would let that bully know what I think of it, too. I'm interested in being a good person, not in saving myself, and as such I will not bow to the will of some sort of Hitler-in-the-sky.

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. . . it concerns me deeply that vulnerable poeple are being targeted

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. . . it contains me deeply that vulnerable poeple are being targeted

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When you read something that you know, for personal experience to be a lie, a fantasy, then you can guess that most of the rest of what they have to say is rubbish.

Yet this is the posin that they presumably want to point out at vulnerable people.

You do wonder.

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Well said . . . Bravo

Corrina's . . . use of the turn of phrase "unwanted homosexual feelings"!

So unoffensive, so civilised so nealty packaged . . . shall we unpack this euphemism

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"Paul Brownsey" could not see the flaw in his option A, viz. "I know you are in pain, but that's only because of the oppression you've suffered from people with the horrible outlook of those running this so-called gay cure conference. So go away and reconstitute yourself a confident happy gay person. You are not to be allowed even to explore the possibility of change."

Silly immature little "Paul Brownsey" could not see when he wrote the above option that it could have ended "So let us put you in touch with a myriad of excellent professional support services which will assist you and your family in seeing that your homosexuality is no problem at all. There will be much change ahead but there are a great many caring professionals out there who will help you through it."

Bugger off, "Paul Brownsey", you're brainless. Hear that? Brainless, mate.

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Corinna, all religious beliefs are voo-doo. Crap. Nonsense. You say you've been to a university. Well, that means you have the intelligence to work out that if there are 100s of religions upon the face of the earth and they all believe that they have the one and only "god", and all their "gods" are different . . . then this god business is primitive nonsense which modern peoples, and big girls like you, ought to have outgrown.

Corinna, there are no spirits, no ghosts, no fairies, no elves, no imps, no gods. Nada. Awful terrifying thought, perhaps, for people to bloody weak to walk through life without crutches, but TRUE.

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It’s curious that you imagine counselling to be multiple choice.

It’s curious that you can only stimulate debate but never engage in it your self.

I wonder why?

O dear . . . there is nothing human about you

I do not have debates with machines

Perhaps in a couple of decades when artifical intelligence it more advanced

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(1) For homosexuality to be defined as an illness there would have to be some recognisable distress suffered by pretty much all gay people. (if it’s not universal then homosexuality clearly isn’t the problem) . It is hard to see where this could come from. To extend your point, believing in God or voting Tory might come to be defined as a medical disorder, but this kind of speculation gets us absolutely nowhere.

(2) If encouraging people to explore changes in their sexuality (always assuming that is even possible) is fine and dandy, then what about race? It’s perfectly possible to imagine that genetics will make it possible for people to assume the physical traits of another race. Given social attitudes, it is likely that some may wish to change their racial appearance. Should someone from a racial minority pat someone on the back and point them to the nearest clinic.

(3) All of those pedalling “reprogramming” sexuality, are to my knowledge, deeply hostile toward all gay relationships, however happy. Why would any self respecting gay person willing counsel another gay person to put themselves in their clutches? Common sense also suggests that there is a high risk that people subjected to “treatment” which goes to the heart of ones capacity to attach to human beings, is very dangerous indeed. The sort of “doctor” who says OK if you want I’ll try to make you, gay, or straight or bisexual, the choice is yours, simply doesn’t exist. If they did, and if there was any science behind it, your argument might just be worth entertaining.

As it is, this is clearly part of a broader movement to eliminate homosexual love. As such no self respecting homosexual should give it house room.

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No one has been able to point to any disadvantages to homosexual relationships per se – apart from the fact that they cannot directly produce children, but the same would apply to anyone who chooses for any reason to be celibate, or to marry an infertile partner. Given that gay relationships are frequently just as long lasting, and loving as straight ones – despite the much more hostile conditions under which they have to operate, the whole idea that it is an illness is risible.

As for “morality” apart from the rather pointless and circular “because I / God says so” argument, they normally bring up bad behaviour which isn’t necessarily connected to gay sexuality at all. E.g. if you want to stay celibate till you meet Mr or Mrs “Right” that has nothing whatsoever to do with whether gay or straight relationships are better.

I think that this “Reprogramming” is a bit like plastic surgery. Is someone is unhappy because of their sexuality, isn’t that rather like wanting a more pleasing face, fewer wrinkles, a better head of hair, all of which help someone to fit in better – and I suspect far more people agonise over this than over their sexuality.

So perhaps the church should go out and offer Botox, hair transplants and nips and tucks so that people can be made happy by conforming to what society believes they should be.

What really angers me though, and what puts the lies to the pious platitudes, is that some religious believers show a total lack of respect for the love of which gay people show to one another, often over many years, and treat it as somehow inferior.

For most of us, love is the best that we have to give, and where that love is rejected as worthless the whole person is rejected.

That is why this whole gay reprogramming charade is not just anti gay, but anti human. If I were a Christian, I would be very worried indeed.

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