"You ask for verification of some of my references. I checked the most professional ones — sad to no luck: Medical Journal of Homosexulaity –does not permit individuals to access information — you have to be a MJH member."

I asked this because no such publication exists in the first place. Of course, he hasn't got the brains to do any basic fact checking for himself, but that's beside the point. It just shows how hollow his message is. It's important to tell people like this what we think of them. We get to ridicule him, he gets to feel persecuted like his supposed saviour – a win-win situation. And I'm curious to see how these kooks think anyway. ('the burden of proof lies with everyone but themselves') The bizarre dialogue above shows they are incapable of reasoning and cannot think.

If he comes back, keep asking why he seeks out a KKK white- supremicist hate-leaflet as 'evidence'. Still no answer…

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Folks, don't bother with this troll… he comes in here on occasion looking to bait individuals under the auspices of "dialogue and understanding", but he wants no such thing. If you don't agree with his view on creationisms and ex-gays, then he will brand you a paedophile and cream the bible quotes at you with all the fever of a raving lunatic. He climes to be dying of lung cancer, as if that's an excuse for this stupidity…. he obviously has the slowest acting lung cancer on earth, because he's still here spouting his foolishness and Fisher Price brand of "stats" on homosexuality.

Don't allow his the benefit of civilised conversation, ignore him… he's just a sad old fool who thinks because he went "ex-gay" (I laugh at the very suggestion of that) we all have to do the same.

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When any attempt is made to engage with a true believer, the problem is they all believe in a unique god of their very own; a personal saviour. So we're arguing against wish-thinking, nonsense, ignorance, fear – and most of all – servility.
All questions of knowledge and morality are handed over to a Big Brother in the sky who will convict you of thought crime, and who watches over you every moment of your life. Anyone who wishes this to be true is masochistic to the core. It's never enough to simply believe this, everyone else must too. They come offering 'love' – but look at the poisonous hatred and evil threats of eternal hell spouted out if you reject it. (If the only thing that stops you from raping, killing, torturing, stealing is god's will, then you are inherently immoral).

This all answers why people who think they are acting with divine permission are the most vicious and violent opponents, whether it's orthodox thugs at Jerusalem pride, death cults in Waco Texas or bombers in Baghdad.

There are thousands of people like this in evangelical and pentecostal churches across Britain by the way, and I hope if those like hank are reading this, they consider the possibility that they too can break free from it.

Hank sought goodness and instead it's given him selfishness, hate, ignorance, intolerance, abolition of personal responsibility and deceit. Actually I think it's reinforced the qualities he despised about himself and made him seek religion in the first place.

If anyone wants to come on here and argue like this, then let them first advance a satisfactory case for their god being superior to anyone else's. And don't make claims you can't defend.

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After several hundred words on "homosexual crimes" already, your disclaimer when pressed speaks volumes for your reliability.

Thanks.

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You make accusations and fail to defend or explan any of the 'data' you dump up here. It shows you just trawl the Net for something that fits your prejudices without knowing where it came from, how the research was done (citing Playboy magazine, Paul Cameron, neo-nazi / KKK hate-speech pamphlets, 30 year old data), and being unable to say how you know the facts are accurately reported, or why the facts are significant. So, your message is: 'believe me or depart into the eternal fire,' the same evil ultimatum as bin Laden's suicide bombers.

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LET US EXAMINE THE PRINCIPLE OF NOT GIVING THE HOLY TO DOGS OR CASTING PEARLS BEFORE SWINE.

Of course, the words of Jesus are symbolical. We know that people were not literally casting pearls before swine.

1. The meaning is easy to understand: "Do not persist in offering what is sacred to those who have no appreciation for it." a. Also, Jesus shows that such efforts may only bring harm to ourselves. Matt. 7:6b b. Many people, not only do not appreciate spiritual things, but belittle and rail against them. c. And, not only that, some will persecute those who try to bring the sacred things to them.

2. Thus, the "dogs" and "swine" here stand for these unappreciative and evil people of the world. a. "Dogs" are always spoken of in an unfavorable sense in the Bible. (1) Phil. 3:2 – The dogs here probably refer to the Judaizers, the false teachers who were insisting on circumcision in order to be saved. (2) Rev. 22:15 – In this verse and along with Deut. 23:18, it appears that "dogs" refer to homosexuals.

3. That which is "holy" and the "pearls," of course, refer to God's holy word. Also, it can refer to our spiritual sacrifices which are offered to God. a. A dog could care less whether his food came from the altar or the garbage can. b. The swine have no appreciation for the beauty and value of pearls, and would simply trample them under his feet

Goodbye all.

Hank

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…you mean post spam on other sites, too? You're in no position to teach about anything, since when challenged, you refuse to defend or explan any of the data you dump up here – where it came from, how the research was done (citing Playboy magazine, for goodness' sake), how you know the facts to be true. These are basic challenges that anyone submitting a thesis would relish, at peer review stage. If you can give credible answers, then your argument stands to reason, and you would make history. But you will not be questioned.

But here is the problem: you base all your beliefs on faith, which teaches you not to question, ask for evidence or check facts. Normal people base their beliefs on doubt. In your world, everyone has to disprove your lazy assertions – it doesn't work like that.
If your degree was in any other field than bible studies, you would have learnt that. It's your job to prove your theory, and you have all your work ahead of you.

You have no qualifications in psychology, yet claim to be better informed than all the professional people in the western world. You say, you leave the time-consuming research and studies to
be done by qualified individuals. Yet qualified individuals say there is nothing wrong with homosexuality. It does not cause people to commit crimes. Case closed.

I don't need to read data – of all the gay people I come across, no one fits this crazy impression you paint. The evidence from everyday life is overwhelmingly against you.

Of course, this is London, where people are relatively tolerant and can come out very easily, where people have protections against bigotry, where anyone sacking a gay person for being gay would be sued big time. And instead of being forced out of their communities to live in ghettos, like gay people had to in the 1970s, we just blend in. (There is still prejudice of course, and mostly in religious communities.)

And all those prejudices disappear, just like when streetlights appeared, people realised witches didn't exist. Where you are, that's clearly not the case, and you can play on people's fears and ignorance, about gay people being sex predators and other nonsense. Over here, you will just be laughed at, as predicted in Matt 10:22.

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So this study shows that men who suffered from sexual abuse in their childhood are more likely to report same-sex partnerships as adults (although I would note that does not necessarily mean they identify as gay). And your point is caller? Exactly how does this study show that gay and lesbian people are a danger to children?

I would also add that you are right(ish) in saying there is no proven definitive cause of homosexuality – there are a lot of theories, of which a gay gene is only one. Conversely, there is no proven evidence of the cause of heterosexuality – so it's a bit of a moot point.

You also seem to be confused as to what define something as a pathology – just because something is innate, does not mean is cannot be a disease. Just look at genetic disorders like cystic fibrosis.

Perhaps the APA's decision to declassify homosexuality as a mental disorder was based on evidence that discrimination and stigmatisation of homosexuality causes ill health – "minority stress" is a huge area of health psychology, I suggest you read into it. But then, you don't appear to read any up-to-date literature unless it agrees with your opinion.

And AdrianT, I wouldn't bother trying to explain global warming to Hank either – he probably wouldn't get it. . .

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As for the question 'Where is Omar Khayyam now'? Well, he's dead. That's all there is to say. We are going to die, too. That makes us so inimaginably lucky. To be here, now in this tiny window of life, instead of all the other genetic combinations that could have been in our place. We were dead for billions of years, we will be dead for billions more. That in itself, is enough to inspire to live life to the fullest – as happily as possible, while we can.

But you cannot know what happened to Jesus, let aone be on close terms with his mind. To claim there is anything more than this life is nothing more than wishful thinking. It is beyond the capabilities of the human mind to know this.

You do not accept that St Thomas Aquinas levitated around Notre Dame in Paris, as Catholics believe. Neither, I assume, do you accept tales of Mohammed's visions from Archangel Gabriel. We agree here. But what reason do you have to make an exception for your preferred miracles, and not these? Catholic and Islamic followers are just as certain as you that theirs is the only truth.

(As for the book of Revelation, the book which inspired David Koresh, and which gleefully looks forward to world destruction – I am glad this poison is not true!)

You seem to have had remorse for hurting many women. You sought meaning in life – admirable. It is possible to do these things without invoking the supernatural. There will always be love, solidarity, humour, art, science, irony, friendship, good food, fine whisky and beer – all the things that make life so great, without any need for any deity, irrespective of whether one is gay or not. I would not dream of saying this universe, with its collapsed stars, failed galaxies, and almost entirely uninhabitable solar system, was made especially for us. 99% of all species living on this insignificant planet are now extinct. We are not the centre of this; hardly even in the outer suburbs of the cosmos.

Just because you have intelligence, why 'must there be more than this'? If a highly complex entity such as god existed forever, why can't a relatively simple molecule of DNA exist forever also?

Frankly Hank, there are seriously important things to worry about. Homosexuality is not one of them. Scientists predict a 4 degree temperature rise over the next 100 years. Apart from the destruction of the rainforests in Brazil and Africa, it is set to bring about near total desertification of the USA.

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YOU SAY, "If parents who were pregnant" [sic]? Are you tacitly advocating lesbian parentage now, Hank?"

Hey get with it….now a wife and/or husband now say, "we're
pregnant." It's a nice way of showing committment — just
like you show to your lover/partner. Don't be jealous because
heterosexuals show compassion/happiness when expecting a child.
Something you'll never have a chance to do.

YOU SAY," "…the findings in scientific literature — there is none and never will be" – Hank, is your God complex overtaking you perhaps?

NO…it's simply that sin doesn't change — what was sin according
to God will always be sin, and homosexuality is on that list.
Your homosexual mindset doesn't permit you to think otherwise.

BTW, I notice that despite being asked twice already, you still don't come up for an authoritative academic source for your statement "Homosexuals prey on children". Why is that?

I'll answer this question soon with facts/figues from wuthoritative
sources — I have other things to do besides teaching you about
homosexual crimes.

It's night here — time to give your site some quiet time.

Sleep well.

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You have so many errors in your statement, it'll take long to
correct you, but have patience.
By the way, where is Omar Khayyam now that he's dead? My
Jesus arose from the grave after 3 days and walked with
His disciples for over 40 days talking to them and to the
public — doing miracles before returning to heaven. What
did Omar do?

YOU SAY, " Being a Christian fundamentalist, your psyche demands that you reject anything that goes against "what you were programmed to believe as a young child, before you learnt to reason for yourself"

Entirely wrong, In my early childhood I didn't follow any
religous belief. When I went to College, I considered myself
an atheist and for over 40 years never went to church, never
read the Bible and committed every sin a lustful man could — I
hurt many women emotionally and didn't really think much about it.
But when I started thinking about my worldview –what was I
about, what meaning did existence have for me, what was my future
when I died — it was entirely selfish — lived my life for pleasure alone.
I soon felt that as a human with intelligence there must be something other than all this when it's over.
I started reading the Bible, read writings by scholars who had
studied ancient writings (they could read, write and interpret
7,8 ancient languages) and they wrote deep understanding of what
archeological findings discovered in Israel, Turkey, Egypt,
Iraq, etc. and they showed the validation of the Holy Bible's
writings — without error in anything the Bible said. (I'll
get to the confirmation of science through the Bible later).

AFter studying the Bible, reading authoritative works by some
of the greatest researchers in archeology, verifing everything in
the Bible –never a contradition –never!, I spent much time
contemplating what God offered to mere mortals who had an open
mind to studying His word — He revealed Truth as only God knows it — far deeper than philosophers or other so-called gods who
have proved to be inferior after their deaths.
No my friend, I know who I am and where I'm going when I die –
without fear. I don't live by human nature's power.

I read the Bible and fully accept that homosexuality will be very
dominant in the world — just like Revelation says will happen.
But my knowledge goes far beyond that — into the future, and
I'm not afraid of what our world will be like in years to come.
We can see its seeds in today's behavior in all avenues of behavior.
No…homosexuality is just sin justlike adultery, greed, corruption, idoltry. gluttony, hate, injustice, and many more
sins.

By the way I found this professional site, showing that
homosexuality is complex with many factors involved.
You can see this is a non-religious site. You can
Google them to see for yourself.

1. Helen W. Wilson, PhD, Assistant Professor of Psychology at Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science, and Cathy Spatz Widom, PhD, Professor of Criminal Justice and Psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice at The City University of New York (CUNY), wrote the following information in their Jan. 7, 2009 article published by Archives of Sexual Behavior, "Does Physical Abuse, Sexual Abuse, or Neglect in Childhood Increase the Likelihood of Same-sex Sexual Relationships and Cohabitation? A Prospective 30-year Follow-up":
"Existing cross-sectional research suggests associations between physical and sexual abuse in childhood and same-sex sexual orientation in adulthood. [Our] study prospectively examined whether abuse and/or neglect in child-hood were associated with increased likelihood of same-sex partnerships in adulthood. The sample included physically abused… sexually abused… and neglected children (ages 0-11) with documented cases during 1967-1971 who were matched with non-maltreated children and followed into adulthood. At approximately age 40, participants (483 women and 461 men) were asked about romantic cohabitation and sexual partners, in the context of in-person interviews covering a range of topics…

[The results revealed that] men with documented histories of childhood sexual abuse were significantly more likely than controls to report ever having had same-sex sexual partners… These prospective findings provide tentative evidence of a link between childhood sexual abuse and same-sex partnerships among men."

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BTW, I notice that despite being asked twice already, you still don't come up for an authoritative academic source for your statement "Homosexuals prey on children". Why is that?

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I don't particularly care now why I am gay. Before I met my partner 34 years ago there were times when being straight would have been easier, but since then NO.

I don't believe in your (or any) god, nor ascribe to your notions of sin or morality, sowhy should I allow my life to be circumscribed by these rules.

he LAW serves 2 purposes:
protect society (and LGBT people don't damage society through their sexuality)

protect individuals (but only if the are incompetent to make informed decisions)

Your Bible, ethos etc have no place in ordering society: keep it to your church and personal life

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That you 'spent six years in college' does not excuse you from the obligation to defend the citations. You didn't do any research into the article, and didn't even know one of the sources was neo nazi KKK literature.

I know nothing about astrology, or alchemy, yet I know they are nonsense. Similarly, I don't need to know the Bible – written in the infancy of civilisation, before we knew any science, medicine, astronomy, to discard it.

Of course, it all comes down to your belief that gay people will go to hell. It is amazing how Christians claim to be so humble, yet act with such incredible arrogance. Not only do you claim there is a supreme intelligence at work in the universe, you also claim to be on intimate terms with its mind. You even claim to know whom I should sleep with. How do you know this information? What are your sources? How do you know such a place exists?

Do you have a reason for your beliefs, or is it that you were simply brought up to believe them?

Indeed, — so why bother, your mind is made up and nothing I say, do ,write, refer etc. will make you change your mind. Being a Christian fundamentalist, your psyche demands that you reject anything that goes against "what you were programmed to believe as a young child, before you learnt to reason for yourself" — you're not able to doubt any of your beliefs even if the evidence was indisputable — who are we kidding? You are locked into thinking that solidifies "who you are." Your superstition is so entrenched, you cannot think "outside the box" of your
Christianity regardless of your oppossition says.

You're atheist about thousands of gods, just like me. When you think logically, there is no more evidence for the judeo-Christian god than there is for Poseidon, Mithras, Vishna, Allah, and so on – all you have to do is go that one small step further. The Road to Damascus is a 2-way street. You can free yourself from superstition any time you like. Remember Hank – change is possible, and I'm happy to help you break free from this bronze age nonsense.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To quote the great 11th century Persian philosopher, Omar Khayyam:

And do you think that unto such as you,
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew,
God gave the secret, and denied it me?—
Well, well, what matters it! believe that too!!!

How appropriate those words are.

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YOU SAY,"You do not want people to be "born homosexual", so you want to eradicate any possible contributing factors to stop this from happening.
If you'd paid attention to my comments, you're saying that you're
"born homosexual", not me because I don't think people are
born homosexual because there's no homosexual gene involved.
Look at all the other factors that I've listed before — people
"become" homosexual because of all those other factors I've
listed numerous times. DISPROVE ME — show me studies that
definitely show that a homosexual gene creates homosexuals without
any doubt –name me one authoritative study that's been confirmed
by a second legitimate medical sources that replected the findings
in scientific literature — there is none and never will be — there are too many influencing factors that most medical people
believe.

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YOU SAY, "It must be remembered also, that there are many gay and lesbian people who come from the most religious and conservative backgrounds"

You're just like other heathens, you know nothing about the
Holy Bible and Jesus Christ. You're merely spouting words from
others.

What does coming from a religous background have to do with intimately knowing and following the words of Jesus Christ.
From what many preachers are saying the church is weak, almost never reading the Holy Bible, not being "born again" as Jesus said one must be to understand the Holy Bible.

"Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom
of heaven but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
"Many will say to me on "that day", Lord, Lord did we not
prophesy in Your name and in Your name cast our demons, and in Your
name perform many miracles?
"And I will declare to them, "I never knew you: Depart from me,
you who practice lawlessness." SO DON'T GO BY WHAT PEOPLE TELL
YOU — IT'S WHAT THE DO WITH THEIR LIFE THAT COUNTS FOR JESUS!

Being a church member means nothing. Judas was a follower of
Jesus and turned out to be the worse person in his lifetime. He
was never a believer in Jesus, yet he walked with Him for 3 years.

Your reasoning is worthless — unless you understand Jesus Christ
in His deepest meaning, so-called Christians are still being
deceived and will enter into Hell, not Heaven. Too many people
are totally ignorant of what a "true Christian" is.

YOU SAY "You admit, to not being qualified in psychology, and you have little understanding about scientific method. How are you in a position to discriminate between credible evidence, and junk? On what basis do you constantly reject anything that all the medical professions have to say about homosexuality? That can only be based on your opinion".

I spent 6 years in college, 2 in post-graduate, so I think I'm able
to differ between valid and junk information — give me some
credit from graduting and getting 2 degrees, regardless of what
you think of my position on homosexuality.

YOU SAY, "And why do you limit your research to 'pro-con' websites? You can also pick up the phone and call, or email the APA and others incidentally, if you're not happy with their answer."

I'm certain if I did that you wouldn't believe anything I said
unless I made a recording of the talk with them — so why
bother, your mind is made up and nothing I say, do ,write, refer
etc. will make you change your mind. Being a homosexual, your
psyche demands that you reject anything that goes against
"who you are," — you're not able to reject yourself even if the
evidence was indisputable — who are we kidding? You are
locked into thinking that solidifies "who you are." In your
human nature you cannot think "outside the box" of your
homosexuality regardless of your oppossition says.

I have a quesstion that I would love to get on a national survey:

If parents who were pregnant, had an ABSOLUTE CHOICE to have a homosexual or a heterosexual child — I'd love to know what
percentage would say they'd like a homosexual son/daughter or a heterosexual son/child. I know this would never happen because of "politically correct" censorship, but the question is intriguing don't you think?

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============================================
That has got to be the most utter garbage I have ever heard in my entire life! It's much worse than all the drivel coming from Jehovah Witnesses and the Pope put together.

Aah, now we know what your true intentions are, Hank. You do not want people to be "born homosexual", so you want to eradicate any possible contributing factors to stop this from happening. Hmm, where have I heard this before….? That's right, I believe a certain Herr Hitler and his Nazi cronies tried to do the same thing by attempting to create a pure 'Aryan' race.

This is my final say on this thread, because it is clear that this is going nowhere as you keep using the same old arguments over again and again. Your continued use of "copy and paste" spamming is frankly, becoming a bore. It is also obvious that you will cling onto your bigoted views to the very bitter end, without any regard or consideration for other people's feelings.

Please crawl back under the rock you came from.

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