Pink News - Comments on Bisexual workers 'excluded by lesbian and gay colleagues'

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I'm gay, but I seem to have more close friends who are bisexual than gay or straight. They often mention to me this exclusion and sometimes closed-mindedness towards bisexuals they experience. I think there are some gay people who need to realise that bisexuals have already "made up their mind", and stop suggesting they are in transition so to speak.
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Comment by George — October 28, 2009 @ 20:29
I am ashamed to say that this really doesn’t surprise me.

The intensity of the biphobia I witness in our community, especially amongst gay men, is really quite nauseating. Combine that with general ignorance of what bisexuality is, a widespread belief that bisexuals are really just homosexuals who can’t accept what they are, or that bisexuals are incapable of being faithful, and there really are times when I hang my head in shame.
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 28, 2009 @ 20:41
It's incredible that people are so babyish.
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Comment by AdrianT — October 28, 2009 @ 20:51
What does this report highlight?

The drip, drip effect of facing prejudice from both sides. A lack of support, and a much smaller community that lacks the kind of structural support that the lesbian and gay communities have received. That lots of times, going from LG to LGB/T has meant slapping a "B" on a project name but still focusing on lesbian and gay people with the assumption bis will just leave a huge part of who they are at the door.

There's nothing new here to anyone who has been listening to bi activists for the last ten, fifteen, probably twenty-five years; but with a 'name' label on the research it will probably garner more attention.
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Comment by Jen — October 28, 2009 @ 21:47
I'm not surprised at all, its so sad that some gay people aren't grown up enough to accept bisexuals for what they are.
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Comment by Nathan — October 28, 2009 @ 21:59
I am not attempting to be disparaging here, but I have to ask the question, where were all the bi-sexuals when the GLT community were making efforts to kick down closet doors and lead the way in the fight for equal rights. I see a huge movement in bi-sexuals coming out these days; but, I surmise, and observe a paradox, that shouldn’t it have been bi-sexuals that should have lead the way out of the closets. Either way, I welcome you all, whatever your gender – well as long as it does not include animals, children, or your parents. I also commend the GLT community for the fight and progress you have done, and offer the same commendation to any other gender that help in that progress.
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Comment by Ray — October 28, 2009 @ 22:48
This is news? I thought most people knew this. For sure I have been saying this in my training sessions. Bi get a worse deal even than trans people. (And intersex get a worse deal yet)
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Comment by Polly — October 28, 2009 @ 23:37
No 5: Jen: "A lack of support, and a much smaller community that lacks the kind of structural support that the lesbian and gay communities have received."

The gay and lesbian community did not 'receive' structural support. They campaigned tirelessly over decades to improve their standing society. As a result of their hard work there is now structural support in place.

Bisexual people need to start organising and campaigning on their own behalf. In a much more organised, effective way than they are at present.

It's sad that bi people still face issues in being open. But equally it is unrealistic to expect straight or gay people to overcome their prejudice overnight without a serious effort by bi people to educate and to challenge biphobia.

The bi-folk need to start step from behind the 'comfort zone' of the LGBT campaign and start doing some hard work on their own behalf. If they do then they will be successful.
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 0:52
I m gay and i have truly believe there are a lot of bisexuals out there. the problem with them is that 99.99% of them are in the closet. they almost always choose a "normal life", never admit their sexual orientation to anyone of their family or friend and the only places where are proudly visible are gay chat room. So i m sorry if u are discriminated, but to my humble opinion, it is just ur fault. If today I can be a 20 something proud gay man is because many courageous gay before my time went in mass out the closet in the early ninties and fought to be visible and have their rights.

I know that you guys fell in love with both sex but as i said before i always find very very strange that at the end 99.99 decide to lead the "normal life" keeping gay sex as a secret fun. I mean shouldnt be 50/50 and some should end up in a gay relationship and some in a strait relationship. he seems to me the vast majority are ashamed of being gay and prefere to "conform" (so they must believe that being gay is wrong themselves). another type of homophobia??????
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Comment by marco — October 29, 2009 @ 1:12
I find it preposterous that some of you are claiming to know the sexualities of the nameless masses who campaigned for our rights decades ago. How the hell do you know they were all homosexual? Were you there handing out questionnaires or something?

Also, this "your fault, didn't campaign hard enough" sentiment is pretty disgusting. When someone who's trans, or an ethnic minority, or disabled, or whatever, is denigrated or picked on, I stick up for them. I may not be one of them, but I'm not going to sit back and just say "I've got mine, so screw you".

Polly:-
This is news? I thought most people knew this. For sure I have been saying this in my training sessions. Bi get a worse deal even than trans people. (And intersex get a worse deal yet)

Us LGB's certainly do have it bad, but I think I'd disagree on us having it worse than our T friends. I'm not trying to turn this into a "who has it worse" competition, but trans life is very complicated and misunderstood.
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Comment by Pumpkin Pie — October 29, 2009 @ 1:36
im not surprised the anmount of biphobia from gay people insane. possibly more than from straight people.

most bi related threads on this site attract biphobic comments too. we as a community need to go up fast.
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Comment by xaria — October 29, 2009 @ 1:59
I have never experienced this problem. I work with possibly half and half gay and straight people. I think I am the only bi person among them, but i have never experienced any of these problems. In fact, I think it actually helps me to relate to every viewpoint.
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 3:36
@ Nathan (#6): Where were the bis when we were coming out as GLT?!!! Excuse me but Brenda Howard was bisexual. She is considered to be the mother of pride.
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Comment by Kat — October 29, 2009 @ 6:32
@Simon Murphy-you are so totally wrong. 99% of us are not in the closet and there are plenty of us who are not in opposite sex relationships. And maybe more of us would come out if we didn't have to face ignorance and stupidity from people like you.
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Comment by Maria — October 29, 2009 @ 8:03
The accusation that bisexuals weren't there when gays and lesbians were kicking down the closet doors is outrageous. Almost every bisexual I know was right there kicking at the door along with the rest of us; but, to avoid the prejudices of the community they were allying themselves to, they were accepting the labels of gay and lesbian, even though they weren't.

The vast majority of the people I know who live under the label of 'gay' are actually bisexuals, and I no reason to believe that isn't the case in the wider LGBT community.

Maybe the bi community should stand up an organise itself – then we watch helplessly as most members of the LGBT community (including most of its organisers) go off to do their own thing.
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 9:40
If we cant all respect each other despite our differences – how dare we demand respect from others??
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Comment by Charlene — October 29, 2009 @ 10:04
I woke up in the middle of the night and worried that what I wrote here might be construed as self-satisfied or bragging, or ignoring the plight of others. Just let me say I'm not doing those things. But I really don't have a problem. I think some of my colleagues were a little surprised when they discovered I have a girlfriend when they know I have an ex husband. But none of them reacted badly. I don't honestly understand what the issues are here. What experiences do other folk have that differ from mine?
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 10:21
This is ludicrous nonsense.

Putting aside the debate on what constitutes Bisexuality (I'm in the they are all deceiving themselves camp), this article seems to suggest that there are hoards of bisexual itdentifying people out there who are on the receiving end of an unremtitting flow of biphobic exlusion from their straight and gay colleagues.

Who pays for this rubbish, and more importantly, which gullible fools take it seriously?
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Comment by vulpus_rex — October 29, 2009 @ 10:46
No 14: Maria: "@Simon Murphy-you are so totally wrong. 99% of us are not in the closet"

It wasn't me who made that claim – it was Marco.

No: 10: Pumpkin Pie "I find it preposterous that some of you are claiming to know the sexualities of the nameless masses who campaigned for our rights decades ago. How the hell do you know they were all homosexual?"

We don't know their sexualities. But we do know they were campaigning mainly for homosexual rights. Bisexual rights were not the main issue. No doubt there was bisexual involvement in the gay rights movement.

""your fault, didn't campaign hard enough" sentiment is pretty disgusting."

Why is it disgusting if it's true?

Take responsibility for your own situation.

Don't get me wrong. I'm against discrimination based on someone's race or sex or sexuality. But on the other hand I don't know the full details about life as a specific ethnic minority and if I have prejudices against someone for whatever reason then I need to be challenged in my prejudices.

If bi people face discrimination then that needs to be opposed. But the sense I get from Pumpkin Pie's post is that he thinks that he's going to have it handed to him on a plate.

ALL bi people need to come out. To their opposite sex partners; to their same sex partners; to their families; to their employers; to their friends; to their partner's friends and families. If they refuse to do that then their situation will not improve.

They need to stop hiding behind such wimpy statements as 'I don't like labels'. Get over it. If you're bi then you need to be fully out of the closet to everyone in order to change things. That remains the golden rule for being gay – you MUST be out of the closet if you want things to change.
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 11:10
Vulpus_Rex is quite right about this Stonewall piffel. So, what do we do, instead of hugging a tree, we hug a Bi-sexual person?
Stonewall do disband, you are simply pests!
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Comment by Brian Burton — October 29, 2009 @ 11:14
No 15: Harthacanute: "to avoid the prejudices of the community they were allying themselves to, they were accepting the labels of gay and lesbian, even though they weren't. "
Really?

OK – so obviously when all these noble bisexuals come out as bi then that will force people to reconsider their prejudices.

All the men who are married to women but who cruise gay chat-rooms need to tell their wives about their sexuality.

All the bi postal workers need to tell their wives' parents about their bisexuality.

"The vast majority of the people I know who live under the label of 'gay' are actually bisexuals"

Funny how if a gay person was to make a statement like "the vast majority of the people I know who live under the label 'bisexual' are actually gay" then there would instant shrieks of biphobia.

Why then are you making such homophobic accusations Harthacanute?
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 11:20
From my own personal experience (and it is ONLY my own experience so I'm not generalising) any bisexual person I've ever worked with has been in the closet to their straight colleagues and pretend to be straight around them. They are out to their gay colleagues but only on the quiet.

I feel excluded by this as I'm honest about being gay so this is not an option for me. (Actually I don't feel excluded by this – I just feel pity that the bisexuals I've worked with are living a lie).

I wonder is this a common experience for gay people working with bi colleagues.

Should Stonewall commission a study to see if gay and lesbian employees suffer from exclusion because often their bisexual colleagues refuse to be out of the closet?
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 11:53
Why then are you making such homophobic accusations Harthacanute?

And why are you talking out of your arse, Simon?
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 11:59
Ok. I am even more confused than ever.

Can somebody actually define what bi-sexual is. Surely its more than just married men slipping off to have affairs with somebody they met on the internet.

Because by the definitions being offered here I'm starting to be confused about my own sexuality.
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 12:11
Sorry in advance if this offends. My sister is bi, but I know that because she is my sister and we talk to each other. How do you know anyone is bisexual unless they tell you? Unless you follow their sex lives, it is only disclosure that indicates a persons bisexuality. For many LGBT people, disclosure is still a big step actually. In normal conversation this doesn't come up. If a man says to you "My boyfriend and I…" you assume that he is gay, likewise if he says "My girlfriend and I…" you assume he is straight. These are simple social facts. So it is not surprising that others, both gay and straight, can't put a bisexual person into one particular interpersonal category, which is generally how human beings communicate.

I'm bisexual, or have been (I now consider myself asexual) and I have never had a problem or even thought about bi-phobia. This may come as a surprise to those who know me, or thought they did; I simply leaned more towards women.

But as per the article's title, there is an awful lot of exclusion and prejudice within the LGBT population as a whole; towards out bisexual people, towards out trans people, towards people of faith, there is even an element of racism, these things I have seen and heard.

But we forget that LGBT people are simply people, we're not perfect and we do have our own ideals and beliefs, prejudices and histories. If we just stop for a moment and take a deep breath, look around us and accept this, I suspect things will be more akin to how we wish the non-LGBT world to view us…
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Comment by Jennifer Hynes — October 29, 2009 @ 12:13
bisexuals arebn't deceiving themselves – it's comments like that that are sickening from gays
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Comment by Chester — October 29, 2009 @ 12:13
Can somebody actually define what bi-sexual is.

Anyone who is capable of sexual attraction to both men and women.
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 12:16
How do you know anyone is bisexual unless they tell you?

Exactly – many gay men simply (and quite arrogantly) assume that any man is gay if he is open about being sexually attracted to other men, or in a relationship with another man.

I may very well be wrong, but it is my impression that women are generally somewhat are less prone to make the same assumptions about other women.
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 12:24
Jennifer, exactly. In my case, we have enough work related issues to talk about. Who we sleep with at night didn't come up for months, and in my case it was only because my girlfriend came to see what I do and I introduced her to people. And nobody was especially bothered about it. We're going to the Christmas party together and a couple of other work related events.

Then again, I wasn't in this job when I was with a man. The job, the town, the place i live and the girlfriend are all new in the past 2 years. so perhaps they think i'm just a lesbian? The issue here seems to be that bi-sexuals have problems in work.

Hathacanute – ok, then I can stop worrying. I am definitely bi. Reading stuff on these pages I was wondering. So it doesn't have to be both at once – i.e. married to one and having an affair with the other. Because I tend to have relationships serially not in bulk, but they have been with either sex.

So, I'm happy now to confirm I am bi, and I have no workplace issues. So, to repeat and earlier question, does anyone here HAVE any issues, and what are they exactly?
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 12:31
By the way, isn't gay a word that covers ALL people who engage in same sex relationships? So men with men, women with women and men or women who do both are surely all gay? The samec sex element of the bi relationship is a gay one. Would it be incredibly naive to ask why we can't use the one word for everyone?
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 12:33
By the way, isn't gay a word that covers ALL people who engage in same sex relationships? So men with men, women with women and men or women who do both are surely all gay? The samec sex element of the bi relationship is a gay one. Would it be incredibly naive to ask why we can't use the one word for everyone?

Isn't that how it was before some elements started to make some feel unwelcome by demanding we all define our sexual orientation to the minutest Nth degree … hence the lengthening LGBTXYZABC-and-a-little-on-the-side acronym, as opposed to one all encompassing and welcoming united front for all 'non-standard' sexual orientation?
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 12:43
"sexual orientation" should have read 'sexual identity'. Sorry
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 12:44
"Isn't that how it was before some elements started to make some feel unwelcome by demanding we all define our sexual orientation to the minutest Nth degree"

Yes it was and the growth industry in identifying ever more esoteric definitions of sexuality/gender is in my opinion a side show.

It is this ever increasing trivialisation (if you will forgive the oxymoron) that results in endless discussions about the under representation of Bisexuals on the Tea & Coffee making rota committee.
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Comment by vulpus_rex — October 29, 2009 @ 12:50
Just wondering if any bisexual people who have read this are aware of "BiCon"? Its usually held annually, for bi people, organised by bi people. If there are any bisexuals here looking for something by way of a bisexual community, then its worth googling.
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Comment by George — October 29, 2009 @ 12:54
im not bi but iv been to bicon. it was a great experience
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Comment by xaria — October 29, 2009 @ 12:55
No, I've never heard of bicon. But given what we've just been saying about labels, is it even a good idea?

"LGBTXYZABC-and-a-little-on-the-side acronym…." That is just what I have thought for a while. Bisexual is not even definitive. There are these buzzwords like heteroflexible and bi-curious that just confuse matters. Then there is Q for questioning and i think there's something else, as well that I've forgotten. if we all just defined ourselves as 'gay' this thread and the article it stemmed from wouldn't even have existed.

Think I might go and change my orientation on my MyPink profile and just be gay.

Not sure about the 'non-standard sexual identity'. I dislike words like 'standard' and 'normal' which imply that heterosexual is the 'standard' or the 'norm'. But i understand the point being made.

And wouldn't it be nice if, for one bright shining moment 'gay' could also mean 'blissfully happy' for a lot more of us. It seems like there are so many reasons for frustration and unhappiness.
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 14:05
No 23: Harthacanute: "And why are you talking out of your arse, Simon? "

Stop dodging my perfectly reasonable question.

I simply questioned your homophobic statement – "The vast majority of the people I know who live under the label of 'gay' are actually bisexuals".

Are you saying that people who identify as gay are LYING?

That is a homophobic comment.

It's not 1 that offends me particularly but considering how APPALLED bisexual people (on this website at least) get when people make statements like 'Bi people are really gay but refuse to accept it' then I wonder why you feel so comfortable engaging in the same behaviour.

Double standards at work here.
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 14:27
Simon, the majority of married bisexuals do NOT tell their spouses especially where children are involved, there are many who go through life married and never reveal it let alone act on it and there are some, many in fact, who cheat on the side. For many its a safe haven to live a "straight" life while suppressing the other because of societal attitudes and stigma aside from the financial problems that would arise in the event of a divorce. I don't find that a very healthy way to live either, physically or emotionally. Its up to the bi community to organise and do something about making the environment better for themselves to come out and get over this obstacle to full happiness. Its a serious dilemma having to come out to an opposite sex partner who wants to marry knowing that in the majority of cases, few straight partners would want to enter into a marriage where the other isn't totally straight and couldn't guarantee they would be loyal. Personally, I find it a lot easier being gay. I was out long before equality legislation was a blip on the radar, I took chances, risks,lost some friendships but gained far more, lost a job earlier on in my years, but I don't regret one minute of it, one of the best decisions I ever made in my life and happier for it in the face of adversity.
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Comment by Robert, ex pat Brit — October 29, 2009 @ 14:27
@ Rose: I agree with you that labels can be too restrictive and a pain, but they can be used constructively sometimes. I think in the case of BiCon, the term is used fairly loosely for anyone who self-identifies as bisexual, or elements of it.

Its a balancing act I think, we need labels sometimes to identify what it is we are talking about, but taken too specifically they just get in the way and tempt people to pigeon-hole others when we are all unique.
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Comment by George — October 29, 2009 @ 14:33
Is everyone in agreement that bi (and gay) people have a responsibility to be open about their sexuality in order to challenge prejudice at work and at home (including opposite sex partners of bi people?)

Are openly bi people here in agreement with the idea that
closeted bisexual people are harming your cause by their refusal to come out?

If they are not out (or even more unfairly only out to their gay colleagues but still closeted to their straight colleagues) then they have little reason to complain.

Like I said I am opposed to discrimination based on age; sex; race; sexual orientation.

What I find interesting about discussions of bisexuality on Pink News is that gay people always seem to raise the issue of lack of honesty by bi people about being fully out. The bi people then get all offended saying 'We're not like that. We all deserve equal treatment etc etc' But they never seem to acknowledge that the experience of gay people surrounding honesty about sexuality among bi people is not entirely a matter of prejudice on gay people's part. It comes from bitter experience. In my experience (and again it is MY experience, it is not a universal truth) bi people are happy to be honest about their sexuality at certain times but at other times choose to go back into the closet. I don't have that choice and I don't respect it as choice either.
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 14:41
Is it POSSIBLE to be out to gay colleages and closeted to straight in the SAME workplace? Do gay and straight people not talk to each other in the workplace? I didn't think things were THAT polarised.
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 15:16
I'd like to counter some of the above arguments with a positive comment:

I'm bisexual (with roughly equal number of male and female partners in my history, so I very much doubt I'm in denial) and have found all places I work to be very accepting of this. Occasionally people who don't know me that well make the assumption I'm gay because I have pictures of my 'hubby' on my desk, but I also have photos of my ex- girlfriends.

I'm in a monogamous, faithful relationship, and just because I 'bat for both teams' nobody thinks I'm going to make a pass at anything with a pulse. I get some stick from my lesbian and gay colleagues, but it is friendly banter because they are not afraid to make the jokes (where some straight people might worry about offending). I give as good as I get. Quite a few of the people I work closely with are very religious: They answer the call to prayer twice a day and observe Ramadan strictly, but they treat me no differently than anyone else.

Perhaps it is because I work in media and this industry tends to attract open-minded people that I have been lucky, as the only bi-phobic comments I have had have been out of the workplace when my partner (who IS gay) and I have been in 'gay' pubs or clubs.
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Comment by Dionysian — October 29, 2009 @ 15:23
Stop dodging my perfectly reasonable question.

I will answer reasonable questions – but I wont respond to the crap you are spouting from your prolapsed arse, Simon. There is no way on earth that what I said was homophobic, and any claim by you (and your buddies who will no doubt join your inane chorus) just shows that you have completely lost the plot.

If indeed you do think it is homophobic, then report it to the moderators and let them decide.
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 15:51
All this 'you can't put a label on me!' stuff is very hippyish and adolescent. There's nowt wrong with labels – we just need more and more of them to cover every spectrum, not fewer of them.

As Jennifer quite correctly pointed out, the only way we generally find out about someone's bisexuality is if they tell us. Of cours we assume a man's gay if he refers to his boyfriend, or that a woman's straight bis she refers to her husband – that doesn't equal prejudice.

And to be honest, while bisexuality's no issue for me at all as one of ze gays, I have come across borderline homophobic bisexuals who spout the 'I'm not GAY you know! No, I'm BI, me!' (Um, ok… sorry mate. Didn't think you'd see gayness as a particularly BAD thing y' know).

BTW – Dionysian, why do you have pics of ex-girlfriends on your desk? Don't mean to dig, but isn't that a bit… weird?
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Comment by ChristoRay — October 29, 2009 @ 16:28
ChristoRay:

I only have pics of the ones I'm still really good friends with (hence you won't see a pic of my ex- wife anywhere nearby).

One of them is a Trans woman I dated for several years until living at opposite ends of the country became too much – I think she understood bisexuality better than anyone I've ever talked to about it.
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Comment by Dionysian — October 29, 2009 @ 16:44
No 43: Hartnacanute: "I will answer reasonable questions – but I wont respond to the crap you are spouting from your prolapsed arse, Simon. There is no way on earth that what I said was homophobic"

You are such a hypocrite. And you are quite clearly homophobic.

In comment number 2 you make the statement: [b]"The intensity of the biphobia I witness in our community, especially amongst gay men, is really quite nauseating. "[/b]

Then you make the statement [b]"The vast majority of the people I know who live under the label of 'gay' are actually bisexuals"[/b]

I merely pointed out that on this discussion (as with any discussion of bisexuality on Pink News) that if a gay person DARED to make a claim suggesting that bi people are simply lying about the fact that they are really gay, they would be accused of biphobia.

Your double standards and hypocrisy is quite blatant.

Your subsequent descent into homophobic, gutter language about 'prolapsed arses' and the like is evidence (as if any were needed) that you are a repellent homophobe with nothing of value to add to this discussion.

Why don't you go bash a gay man or whatever it is that homophobes like to do?
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 17:27
Simon: go swivel on your inane accusations
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 18:07
.. and you are a biphobic bigot, Simon. I am quite comfortable with the opinions I hold as a gay man – but your opinions make me ashamed to be a member of the same community as you. Rather Jan Moir than a snivelling hypocrite like you.
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Comment by Harthacanute — October 29, 2009 @ 18:09
I took a nap for a couple of hours and reasoned argument went out of the window on these pages. Harth, give it a rest.
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Comment by Rose — October 29, 2009 @ 18:16
Harthacanute:

So people who identify as 'gay', in your view are lying about their true bisexual orientation? You made that statement in post number 2. Check it out.

But if someone thinks that the reverse is true ie that a bisexual person is merely lying about their true gay sexual orientation then they are a biphobe?

Are you really trying to argue that you don't see the hypocritical double standard here?

I did not call you a homophobe until you started using clearly homophobic slurs about 'prolapsed arses' etc.

You need to stand by your words.

Please explain where you see evidence of my alleged 'biphobia'. Please actually point out the specific instances of my 'biphobia'. I've repeatedly done you the undeserved courtesy of pointing out the specific posts which illustrate your personal hypocrisy, double standards and homophobia (without resorting to schoolyard tactics of name-calling).

I'm simply asking you to do the same.
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Comment by Simon Murphy — October 29, 2009 @ 18:28
Just about every thread on Pink News turns into personal abuse, one person starts using foul language and of course the other person responds in kind and so it goes. Aren't you capable of making a point without resorting to personal abuse?
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Comment by Jane — October 29, 2009 @ 19:58
It seems to me that problems arise when people start to treat societal equality as something that separate groups must argue for and campaign for separately. The whole POINT of equality is that it is extended to everyone, as an individual person, from the ground up. It is not extended to people only inasmuch as they belong to a certain social group, and only through their group membership.

There really shouldn't be any prejudice against bisexual people. This is not because they are bisexual but because there really shouldn't be any prejudice against anyone. Prejudice of all kinds emerges when people start thinking of others as group-members first and individuals second.

Although, to be honest, I am very surprised that there is prejudice against bisexuals from gay people at all. I simply cannot think of any coherent reason why such prejudice might emerge, unless it also accompanies prejudice against the heterosexual community. Is it something to do with jealousy about the pool of potential partners a bisexual person has when compared to a gay person? I can sort of see that, but it strikes me as a terribly abstract reason for such animus as is allegedly present.
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Comment by Vincent Poffley — October 30, 2009 @ 0:44
On the whole labels front, I regard myself as gay in the same way that Barack Obama regards himself black. He is both white and black, and I like both women and men. I'm bisexual, but I don't mind being called gay or straight in appropriate situations, because in some ways you could say that I am both of those things.

Also, there's no such thing as "bisexual rights". Bi people campaigned for those rights we were still being denied: the gay ones. I thought having same-sex attraction made bi people and gay people the same where it counts.

Simon Murphy:
(and again it is MY experience, it is not a universal truth)

And that's the reason I'm ignoring almost everything you've written. You make blatantly over-generalised assumptions, pretty much admit that's what you're doing, and then ask us to answer for them. Say what? My life is nothing like the odd picture you're trying to paint, so none of this stuff really applies to me. I have no answer for you.
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Comment by Pumpkin Pie — October 30, 2009 @ 3:02
Oh, just remembered some bits I actually did want to respond to.

Don't get me wrong. I'm against discrimination based on someone's race or sex or sexuality. But on the other hand I don't know the full details about life as a specific ethnic minority and if I have prejudices against someone for whatever reason then I need to be challenged in my prejudices.

Doesn't make you any less of a jackass. Why aren't YOU challenging YOUR prejudices? I fight for my rights, and I make sure to challenge my views on others. I was taught this as far back as nursery school. It is a fairly important part of being a decent person, you know.

To put it another way, if someone left their wallet on a restaurant table and you stole it, sure it's their fault for leaving it. But not as much as it is your fault for stealing it.

Is everyone in agreement that bi (and gay) people have a responsibility to be open about their sexuality in order to challenge prejudice at work and at home (including opposite sex partners of bi people?)

Only if they reasonably can. I fight my own battles and I won't accept that other people need to sacrifice themselves for me. I'm not selfish enough to want people in high risk situations to endanger themselves for my sake. Especially when it comes to young, dependent LGBT youths.

Are openly bi people here in agreement with the idea that
closeted bisexual people are harming your cause by their refusal to come out?

Nope. If it's not something that can be reasonably accepted of them, then it's only hypothetical. That's like saying our government is harming our economy by not discovering the secrets of alchemy. Those who can should, those who can't shouldn't.

Oh, and before you ask, my responses were about all LGBT people, not just the bisexual ones.
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Comment by Pumpkin Pie — October 30, 2009 @ 3:16
Its not just bisexuals lesbians attack have a look at the latest public offering by Julie Bindel against transsexuals like myself.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/the-operation-that-can-ruin-your-life-features-november-09-julie-bindel-transsexuals?page=0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0

This is like a 1950's view on homosexuality only aimed at transsexuals.
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Comment by Abi1975 — October 30, 2009 @ 5:02
Abi, isn't it more important that the readers' comments shoot down her arguments and demonstrate how out on a limb she is? It could be argued that bigots are, in a way, needed and needed to be heard in order for their prejudices to be openly aired and demolished. Should we not seek sensible debate rather than descending to the Bindel and Daily mail level of caricature and abuse, which is something she obviously relishes and makes her living out of. We all know that there are also some trans activists beyond reason. A genuine public debate between Bindel and an articulate representative of trans people, perhaps someone like Christine Burns would be very effective, I'd be pretty sure of the outcome.
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Comment by Jane — October 30, 2009 @ 7:49
"A genuine public debate between Bindel and an articulate representative of trans people, perhaps someone like Christine Burns would be very effective, I'd be pretty sure of the outcome."

We had that debate with a very jet lagged Dr Susan Striker this year and Bindel was undoubtedly made to look a fool by the trans historian, academic and film maker.

The Demo was about Stonewall not Bindel they where not even chanting her name it was "Stonewall LGB where's the T" They did not even notice Bindel entering the event and the police where organised by the protesters themselves to police the protest.

Julie Bindel has the media to launch her attacks on transsexuals we don't have that cis gendered privileged position of media representation. So we in turn use our blogs and forums to respond.

Unfortunately Bindel has brought Janice Raymond's transsexual empire book (what a work of fiction) and she is slowly plagiarising it in her articles.

No organised campaign exists against her, but if she stick her nose into a hornets nest how can she complain when she gets stung.

She seems to think we don't have the right to reply.
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Comment by Abi1975 — October 30, 2009 @ 12:40
If it's not something that can be reasonably *accepted* of them,

I meant to write *expected*

Its not just bisexuals lesbians attack have a look at the latest public offering by Julie Bindel against transsexuals like myself.

http://standpointmag.co.uk/the-operation-that-can-ruin-your-life-features-november-09-julie-bindel-transsexuals?page=0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0%2C0

This is like a 1950's view on homosexuality only aimed at transsexuals.

Is she still at it? I think the one thing that we all agree on is that Bindel is a walking pile of crap. She is to transsexuals what "conversion therapy" proponents are to LGBs.

I'd like to see this "2005 Guardian study". Why didn't she give us a proper source? Scared we might read it for ourselves and realise she was misrepresenting data? Oh, and don't get me started on the whole "NUS won't let me soapbox, trannies said mean things about me, I'm clearly more repressed and threatened than any of them" whinging. Fundamentalist christians play that same card all the time – the big gay media wants to silence and oppress them, while gays roam the streets in packs, looking for impressionable children to convert.
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Comment by Pumpkin Pie — November 1, 2009 @ 6:24
She sounds like Jan Moir!
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Comment by Rose — November 1, 2009 @ 16:27
After her last rant in the Guardian I emailed JB (she asked Trannies to do this) to discuss 'Transexualism' in the light of Post-Modernist Theory and Post-Feminist Thought.

She never replied.
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Comment by theotherone — November 2, 2009 @ 21:34
Just to clear up a couple of misconceptions – when I'm out in public with a same-gender partner, I'm clearly seen as being gay. When I've been out with an opposite-gender partner, people assume I'm straight. It's hard for me to present myself as a faithful, out and proud bisexual when people make those assumptions, and I welcome suggestions to be more visibly bisexual.

Let's assume that 10% of the population is gay, 10% is bi and 80% straight (rough estimates, assuming a distinct gender binary and no difference between identity and behaviour, and that everyone who fancies men fancies me, which clearly they should) then 90% of the women I meet might fancy me, and 20% of the men. That means that I should reasonably expect to have 4.5 times as many female partners as male, rather than the 50:50 ratio mentioned above.

And that's before you factor in things like bisexuals often feeling more comfortable in "straight space" than "gay space" due to biphobia from the gay community…
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Comment by Dave Page — November 13, 2009 @ 21:13

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