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Archbishop of Canterbury: Africans could be killed if the Church of England backs same-sex marriage

  • D.McCabe

    He just doesn’t get it does he?

    People all over the world are being beaten, imprisoned and murdered just for being gay. And that is without the churches backing of same sex marriage.

    I don’t ever see the churches stance on SSM changing at all in my lifetime. But what he and the church should be doing is say that being gay is acceptable (not that we need their acceptance).

    Only then could the church then try to educate those fools in countries who attack the LGBT community

    • Pádráig O’Gáirmléadháigh

      They are being beaten, imprisoned and murdered just for being gay, because the influence and homophobia of religion and their gawds……..

  • Rodrigo Ferrer

    He suggested that Africans would think the church was going to “make people become homosexuals”,- and attack Christians??? Does he actually believe that Africans are that stupid?

    • Evan

      Given the things that have happened in Africa in recent years do you honestly believe some of the more extreme one’s aren’t that stupid? Let’s not forget that Islamic extremists murdered aid workers in Nigeria trying to give out polio vaccination because they thought they were Christians trying to sterilise their children.

  • Johnny

    If he truly is a man of God and believes in the Gospels should he not be travelling the length and breadth of Africa promoting love and peace and condemning the atrocities that are being committed in the name of God and Jesus Christ. Obviously he values his mortal life more than his immortal soul…Oh ye of so little faith.

  • Maryland Kid

    Forgive me if I find it a little bit implausible that the same institution that praised the British Raj and referred to imperialism as “caring colonialism” as recently as 2007 cares particularly much about the welfare of people in Africa. Especially considering that animosity towards the LGBT community would probably not even exist in these areas were it not for the evangelism of the Anglican Church in what were effectively conquered territories.

  • Paula Thomas

    This is hypocritical in the extreme. It rather reminds me of a conversation I had with a white South African in the 1980′s. I explained the reasons why Apartheid was a bad thing. His response? “Ah but you’ve got to remember this is an explosive situation! We can’t end Apartheid, it would mean that Africans die.” Mmmmmmmmm.

    • Pádráig O’Gáirmléadháigh

      Surely you don’t expect anything better from an organisation based on the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on Mankind, gawd!!!

    • http://www.pariss.info Pariss

      “saying that African Anglicans could be attacked or killed as a result.”

      And what about the gays who will be attacked and killed as a result of CoE NOT embracing gays??

  • CHBrighton

    He and his church have backed themselves into a very ugly corner in which gay people have ben placed at risk for centuries and now if they attempt to correct the damage they’ve done then christians are put at risk (probably both gay people and christians together). The Archbishop needs to get on top of this horrendous situation quickly and not just hope it will go away which is what the church seems to have been doing.

  • Robert W. Pierce

    How very convenient. The African situation has now given the CoE an excuse NEVER to accept or support SSM or allow individual clergy free conscience to participate and support it. Bottom line, further rapid decline in church attendance in the UK. It’s allowed itself to be taken hostage. So be it. Now let’s start taking disestablishment far more seriously.

    • Viscount_Adam

      I certainly don’t hear him speaking out against the criminalisation of being gay in countries like Uganda.

      • Rehan

        He’s probably too scared that to do so would be ‘a sort of neo-colonial approach and one [he] really objects to’.

  • Guest

    S**t or get off the pot love!

  • Fordicus

    He’s wrong. Allowing same sex marriage would do so much good to Christians in overseas countries. True, there might be a few flash points, but there would be far far greater numbers in places like India etc where the change would engender greater social acceptance. On balance it would save more lives than it would endanger.

  • David Reid

    It is his coreligionists in the Anglican church who pushed and lobbied for the hideous laws in African countries, gay people have and will be killed. He like his predecessor will not attempt to reign in the ignorant and hateful statments of his bishops that incite hatred and violence. It is perverse that he is concerned about the potential of christians being killed over gay rights in the UK but not the least bit interested in gays and lesbians being killed by hatred and vilolence that christians do and cause .

  • Toni Massari

    So… what he’s saying is that Africans’ are more important than LGBT lives! The Church needs to stop its hipocrisy. I am SO thankful to be a Militant Atheist, when I read the mealy-mouthed excuses for underwriting the murder of LGBTQI people around the world! Would he be saying that about Jews being murdered by Christians?… “Oh, we must give them more time to get used to the idea of Jews not being legitimate targets”?

  • TampaZeke

    NEWSFLASH! They’re being attacked and killed NOW; with the blessing of Anglican priests and bishops!

  • Toni Massari

    PS And, BTW, it WAS British Colonialism that introduced laws on homosexuality so we ARE still promoting colonial imperialism by supporting LGBTQI persecutions!

  • Paul J

    The trouble with the Christian Churches is that they don’t believe most of what Christ taught, so they don’t urge rich people to give away all their wealth, condemn those who judge others or advocate turning the other cheek. However, they do believe the bit in Leviticus that condemns (male) homosexuality, whilst conveniently ignoring those rules that say menstruating women are unclean, men mustn’t shave their beards and the elaborate codes of conduct that explain what type of animal to sacrifice in the temple and when. Why anyone cares what the churches say or do is absolutely beyond me.

    • Truth

      Oh yes; organised religions – especially those with ENORMOUS power and wealth – are VERY selective in their use of that old book in their arrogant quest to control the rest of us. They are best ignored … and certainly, not supported financially …..

    • gregipoh

      Yep- menstruating women should be put into a hut outside the house and we must stone to death those playing football on a Sunday and those who wear a coat made with different coloured threads. Crimes worthy of incarceration in mass graves.

  • Halou

    So, instead of teaching their African followers what good morality is and using it’s influence to stop the homophobic violence, the Church of England is instead telling it’s African branches that their bad behaviour is fine and does not need to change.

    The Church of England seems intent on prioritizing it’s African tag-along bigots at the expense of any English congregations they have, and rather than try to save it’s disappearing congregations at home it is going to sell itself to the victims of poverty and state-enforced illiteracy overseas.

  • Pooksy

    Welby the capitalist. When you give away your personal wealth, I may actually start listening to you. Otherwise keep your money grabbing mouth shut, or we may start pursuing you for slave labour in the C12th when we built your bloody temples.

  • JackAlison

    When the Anglican church split over marriage equality some years ago the manly African side of homophobe archbishops formed GAFCON. This same group is at the forefront now and instrumental in fanning the flames of persecution, killing murder violence hatred and draconian laws in all african countries of gay ppl. OR THOSE EVEN PERCEIVED TO BE GAY!? , particularly playing their hand in Nigeria and Uganda.

    http://inchatatime.blogspot.hk/2008/06/guardian-on-gafcon.html

    It is supremely blind sighted to suggest how benign and defenceless african anglicanism is. Either Welby is on incredible medication or just down right untruthful.

  • Pádráig O’Gáirmléadháigh

    So Anglican UK citizens must endure homophobia from their church just because of the illiterate ignorant bigoted homophobia, which was brought to Africa by American Evangelicals, …. seems legit…. NOT!!

  • Bobbleobble

    Perhaps it’s time for the Anglican Church to leave these shores since their concern is clearly on Africa and not on people in England any longer.

    This isn’t moral leadership, not that I expect any from the CofE. This is pathetic cowardice.

  • Truth

    I don’t know what the archbigot is on about. The UK equal marriage law expressly EXCLUDES the church of England from conducting equal marriage. So why doesn’t he just stop his winging? They got their way. They got their exemption … but they’re STILL not happy.

  • George Broadhead

    What on earth is this man on about? He must surely be aware that the branch of his church in Uganda has lent its full support to the anti-gay legislation.

  • Tom Cotner

    According to his logic, the Christian church should never have been formed, because the Romans of the time might feed them to the lions. Hmmmmm!

  • http://www.speeddatingbytamara.com/ Helen Kalmar

    Dear Bishop

    Catering is not a word that I would use to describe any community. To be in a community involves people, people who share common interests. Let’s not cater but give these people their equal right. If God is love then love belongs to everyone and we all deserve that chance to get married or not. You need to support your community and also support same-sex marriage. Were you
    questioned when you chose to be straight or are you fighting a demon inside
    you.

    Your reluctance to support same-sex relationships because African Anglicans could be attacked or killed as a result is a mere excuse of your weakness. For someone with such authority and power you should be ashamed of yourself for not allowing a privilege to be shared in the gay community. Many same sex couples are very religious and you have made them rethink their values to the church and
    god. God (if one exists) loves everyone and although I am not religious my partner is catholic that does not stop us being together and it does not stop her from being herself if she feels the need to pray. I accept her wholeheartedly. Her parents are
    churchgoers and they wait for the day that we can get married here in Peru.

    As for saying you cannot make sudden changes. This subject is not new but look how far we have come and I hope one day you will change your mind and look back on what your thoughts were then and realise how selfish you were. I think the Church (which includes priests bishops etc.) must believe that gay people do not attend as they cannot be religious. It just shows how strong their faith is if they still believe in God with people like you running it.

    Get on the bandwagon and give us your support. Being the Church into the 21st
    century and perhaps more people will re-evaulate their faith

  • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

    So, he can stand beside the grave of hundreds of slaughtered people, killed in the name of religion, and he still didn’t abandon his cult?

    This alone says more about these imbeciles than anything else. I find it sickening that people can continue to follow a belief system when confronted with the truth of what these fanatical delusions do to people.

    Millions of people have been slaughtered in the name of one God or another, none of the organized religions are deserving of any respect. Those who blindly follow them in ignorance are bad enough, but those who have witnessed the utter extremism of their “faith” and STILL support it are considerably mentally ill.

    Believe what you want to believe in, but organized religion is a scourge on Humanity and the day it ends the better off we will all be as a species.

  • Danny

    Well if you’re worried about the dangers of other peoples misguided perception of Homosexuality, educate them. Fear breeds hatred. Give them the power of knowledge and do something good instead of criticizing and persecuting LGBT people.

  • RBrown

    LGBT Africans are ALREADY being killed thanks to the church and other ‘religious individuals’ across the continent.

  • Tom (Winnipeg)

    He says he’s up all night thinking and squirming. I really think he’s up all night trying to find a “valid” excuse to pull back on gay-marriage, because he lost the war on gay-marriage. Now, he thinks he’s found one. I say ignore him – the dangerous lurking in dark corners.

  • Colin

    Governments have to make difficult decisions and live by them!
    Doctors have to make hard decisions and live by them!
    The military has to make hard decisions and live by them!
    Business has to make hard decisions and live by them!
    People have to make hard decisions and live by them!

    Religion…..Bunch of irresponsible children.

    You have to do what is right. Cut the anglican church in Africa and name it as a sham. Then you may actually go up in people like me opinion.

    Life is messy. The church stands on the sidelines and criticises…..all of the above…..Well time to show your colours…and be responsible.

    I won’t hold my breath.

  • Steve_R

    “He suggested that people in African countries would think the church was going to “make people become homosexuals”, and attack Christians, if the Anglican Church changed its official stance on gay relationships.”

    So it’s okay for the church to “make people become bigots” by not changing it’s stance on gay relationships. The fact that people are being attacked and killed by people who are “Made to be Christians” is of little consequence to this mans beliefs or consequent lack of action.

  • Sparkyu1

    The deaths of LGBT Africans is, of course, not something that concerns this Christian. He maintains homophobia to placate bigotry? This is his “moral stance”? A moral stance which empowers those violent bigots with his authority!

    Since bigotry abroad apparently prevents the CofE from following the laws and principles of this country, it’s clear this church must no longer be the established church

  • Cal

    “Don’t change what you are doing because then we can’t accept your help.”?
    Beggars can’t be choosers!
    Despite the serious subject matter, he is hilariously vague. Surely it must be wrong to refuse to help Gay people in case Africans fog on another rampage. The situation there isn’t going to change anytime soon.
    Nothing wrong with the term “less enlightened”. A euphemism if ever I’ve heard one!

  • Craig Young

    With all due respect, Archbishop Welby, the Ugandan and Nigerian “Anglican” Churches are a disgrace to the Anglican Communion. They seem willing to turn a blind eye to economic inequality, ethnic cleansing, religious persecution, violence against women, polygamy and government corruption and other causes of suffering for nongay Ugandans and Nigerians. You are doing those people, as well as LGBT Africans, a real disservice by not challenging the fundamentalist-blighted hierarchies of African “Anglicanism.”

  • JohnStefanyszyn

    The Church of England does not support gay marriage but it does support the freedom and right of the homosexual lifestyle.

    …but gay marriage is an expression of a homosexual’s freedom & way of life.

    The Church of England is contradicting itself…or perhaps not.

    …Within their “religious” belief they do not support gay marriage.

    …But within their way of life they do support the “right” to gay marriage .

    For they also live by the same belief, the belief in freedom of self rights….since they also turn to this belief for their freedom of religion…which dictates that it is RIGHT (a right) to be free to worship ANY god.

    It is clear what is the first love of the “Church of England” and its leaders.

    It is the belief in FREEDOM….this is the god of fortresses that man and the religious worship.

    …for man to know / establish / justify “good and evil” in his own eyes

    …for man to say what is right, for man to do his will

    …for man to serve and magnify oneself (XES)

    But the Lord Jesus Christ said to worship Only the One Creator God and Him Alone, His Will Alone to serve in obedience.

    …and Christ said to repent, to follow Him, to live by the Will of the One and Only God.

    Soon, the Lord Jesus Christ will return to rule the earth in power according to and in obedience to the Will of Jehowah Elohim and NOT according to man’s first love for “his freedom”.

  • Thomas

    What a ridiculous attempt to justify the church’s blatant bigotry and prejudice! So by exactly the same line of argument the Church of England in the 1930s should have avoided any criticism of the Nazis and their persecution of the Jews, for fear of German christians being attacked by Nazi supporters in the streets?

    The persecution, repression, violence and murder of gay Africans in places like Uganda and Nigeria is EXACTLY the same as the attacks on Jews in Nazi Germany – the same ignorance, the same hideous brutality, the same monstrous hate. And the CofE stands idly by and says nothing – even worse, it actively fuels this hatred and persecution by its horrifyingly UnChristian stance of gay hatred and intolerance.

    Until recently I loved the CofE services and would contribute to church funds – after their hateful opposition to marriage equality I now shudder with distaste when I see a church on account of the dark institutional homophobia that lurks within and won’t contribute a penny to the institution.

  • gregipoh

    Without realising it, Welby has admitted what the various churches’ hierarchies desperately avoided admitting: moral bankruptcy, hypocrisy and desperate preservation of powers, membership and wealth, AT ANY COST.

  • JCF

    As a faithful Anglican (U.S. Episcopalian), I cannot OVERSTATE how heinous this victim-blaming by the ABC is. Welby, Retract&Repent, or RESIGN!

  • GulliverUK

    What is this crock of ?%£ Welby asked the Nigeria and Uganda Anglican churches to not be horrible to gay people – they told him to f-off. How on earth does he seriously expect the communion to maintain – is he quite mad? The African part of the Anglican communion needs to be jettisoned and Welby needs to either go join it, or stay here and work for unity of Anglicans here and in Europe / the US, which is still possible. You simply cannot have a rational theological argument, or any other type of conversation, with the current African clergy. I don’t know what they practice there, but it’s not Christianity – unless the missionaries only left them copies of the Old Testament !

    You know, every single time he opens his mouth he digs a deeper and deeper hole for himself. Gay peoples lives are in serious risk in Nigeria and Uganda, the bishops there told Welby to f-off. What’s he going to do about it. If he takes no action he condones their behavior, or shows he is utterly powerless. He needs to wake up – all of this is at his door. This legislation in Nigeria and Uganda is partly a reaction to the 1998 Lambeth Conference – it includes Anglican homophobia on the rampage in these countries.

    Besides, they voted against the legislation, they could have abstained, rather than voting against.

  • gregipoh

    Kept awake at night with nightmares about your conscience? Your organisation exposed as fraudulent? You’re not alone: READ the shocking admissions of a man tormented: “What I did for love” (of my missionary position) by the man in the weird hat and frock: Justin Welby reveals his sleepless and turbulent nights wrestling with moral values versus church membership in darkest Africa, where plagues of well-funded American missionaries roam the villages terrorising people with guilt, exclusion and worse.

  • gregipoh

    Headlines: “Welby hides anti-gay massacres of hundreds of Africans.”

    “The memories of standing by the gravesides still gives me nightmares”, he said.

    JUST A MINUTE! WAIT RIGHT THERE. This is sensation of the century: “Welby hides anti-gay massacres” issit?

    Surely we should be told: details details: place of massacre, and when, and why his church hid this “cleansing” of African gays. “It all happened because of something in America”. Well a lot of things DO, but let’s have real facts now it’s being exposed by Welby- give us:

    The scene, location, why, when, why hidden by him and the church? Was it in the places he mentioned (give us a clue): South Sudan, Pakistan, Nigeria- these are places with conflicts with often new Moslem converts, so did the massacre occur between Moslems and new Christian converts by American Evangelicals?

    We NEED the details please. Having lived in Malaysia happily for 12 years and never having a single problem with any Moslem even about my gayness, I’m always concerned about this stuff- shrouding it in secrecy and mystery propagates suspicions.

  • gregipoh

    Does anyone remember Enoch Powell’s “Rivers of Blood” anti-immigration speech? He went on to tell us about someone pushing a dog turd and signed letter through his letter box, but refusing to tell us whose signature was on the alleged letter. this seems similar. we need to know, now the Archbish has revealed the previously untold massacre of gays in Africa where and when this occurred and why the church concealed this from the world.

  • gregipoh

    Erm, the thing is, like Enoch Powell and his “Rivers of Blood” speech, the Archbish darkly tells stories prophesying doom, but won’t enlarge on the massacre when he stood by the mass grave of over 300. Welby refuses to name the place and date of the anti-gay massacre, and tells us murkily “it all happened because of something in America”. Enoch told us of dog turds and signed threatening letters through his letter box but refused to give details.

    Well, the evangelicals sent anti-gay missionaries from America. Is THAT what he hints about? We aren’t told.

    Standing by the graveside of 300 gay sympathisers is pretty horrendous stuff, but, like Enoch Powell’s mysterious declarations, we are to learn NO MORE.

    We have read of the My Lai massacre in Vietnam and of an alleged British massacre of supposed Communist sympathisers during the Malayan “Emergency” at Batang Kali; we know of the “Bloody Sunday” events, of the Kenyan Mau Mau allegations against Brit soldiers and of the massacres of Rohynga Moslems in Burma’s Myitkyina, Sittwe and other cities in the last 10 months, and of Bangladesh’s pushing them back to their certain deaths in Burma and of massacres of Moslems by Serb nationalists before the UN intervention, but the church is choosing to hide the details of this anti-gay massacre. WHY?

  • gregipoh

    Email:

    contact@lambethpalace.org.uk

    Tricia Shannon
    Public Affairs, Lambeth Palace London SE1 7

  • gregipoh

    First we were responsible for the earthquakes (God hates Fags, USA), then for all that flooding (UKIP); now we’ve caused the deaths of 300 Africans in a mystery and un-named slaughter. Recently? Erm, we don’t know. All we know is we have a lot to answer for. Really really BAD. No wonder we should repent. Sinners big time- all of us fags.

  • Silly Old Bastard

    Disappointing response from the readership here. Looks like they want
    nothing to get in the way of their western desires. It reads:

    “If a few blacks get killed, then tough, but we’ll take it. And we’ll keep
    on taking it, and we won’t change our minds”

  • doug

    Even mad Keith O’Brien in his wildest ravings never suggested such a thing.

  • Truth

    Millions of people have alredy died throughout the world because of religion and its divisness. So to try to link acceptance of gay marriage with the possibilty of more bloodshed is disgusting and totally disingenuous. All this lot really care about is their OWN existence.

  • Midnighter

    “There is a huge danger in trotting out simple solutions to really complex issues.”

    I’ll remember to quote the Arch Bigot next time some religious loon ignores science and tells me “God did it”.

  • kwasi

    The African positon is not uncomplicated; gay behaviour is simply not our culture from the perspective of Africa traditional practice, Islam and Christlikeness. Africans has the right to determine their destiny. Enough of Western interference. Take your gayism and leave Africa of this. God is on our side on this one.

    • Midnighter

      It is to be expected that someone who is a proponent of Western religion and the taboos imposed by invading non-African cultures can’t see the hypocrisy in citing “tradition” while ignoring the traditions pertaining to your pre-colonial history. Simply research King Mwanga II to see a case in point.

      Why is it you ignore your own history and the established multi-disciplinary scientific consensus that homsexuality is established at birth and widely seen in nature?

      How do you know “God is on [y]our side”? Did He speak to you personally? How do you explain the fact that many religious leaders would claim the opposite?

      You are right in saying Africa’s
      position is not uncomplicated: it is clearly a twisted mess created by
      ignorance and superstition.

    • Rehan

      Which ‘God’ is that? The one introduced through Western interference?

      Your attitude certainly doesn’t display much Christlikeness.

  • Cal

    The African Anglicans are just as likely to go on a killing spree and any of their fellow county men.

  • qv

    “Sudden changes”? what’s sudden about it?

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