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Nigel Farage will not support equal marriage unless Britain withdraws from ECHR

  • Jones

    How does that work? You either support equal marriage or you don’t. That’s like saying ‘I don’t support black people marrying each other unless they wear blue hats.’

    • Rumbelow

      I think it is supposed to be a form of blackmail.

      • Jones

        Evidently. Welcome to Nigel Farage’s politics.

        • Terry

          So far as I can tell there’s a perfectly reasonable request for protection for “faith communities” from performing ceremonies they don’t agree with. Farage is correct in his assertion that these protections are not guaranteed by the ECHR and related European justice mechanisms.

          • David Jordan

            If that could happen, why hasn’t it happened yet?

          • Bobbleobble

            Farage knows that there is no chance that the ECHR will force any church to perform same sex marriages. He cannot be stupid enough to believe otherwise. But it suits his agenda to feed the fear of little englanders and so he carries on this nonsensical fairy tale.

            Faith communities are protected by article 9 of the ECHR. There has been no instance of the ECHR forcing a church to do anything it doesn’t want to do. Hell the ECHR doesn’t even recognise a right to SSM yet.

          • Robert W. Pierce

            Exactly right. Further, the ECHR has said several times that it will not meddle in the equal marriage debate in any member state and stated quite categorically that it is up to each state to decide. None of the EU countries where we can marry has taken a case against a church forcing it to marry a gay couple and never will. More Farage gibberish, sound bites, no substance or facts to back up anything he says and the dumb arses supporting him hang on every word he spews.

            My only complaint about last night’s debate was that Clegg wasn’t forceful enough and really never went for the jugular to bury UKIP once and for all.

          • Jesus_Mohammed

            Yes, Clegg, I think, tried to hold upper ground by not stooping to the UKIP loon’s level. However, when you’re dealing with someone who “fights dirty”, you HAVE TO fight just as “dirty” yourself, but if you’re not supporting idiocy you’ll still not descend to the other’s level.

          • saintlaw

            Shut up.

          • Yesh U R

            The law is there to protect the rational thinkers from the irrational “faith communities” and their determination to impose their book of spells on the rational members of a society. “Faith communities” don’t need protection they need education, and they also need to fund their own activities without tax benefits added on.In time they need to fade away, like the worship of Odin, Jupiter and all the other childish nonsense of such like.

          • Mark

            Well said Yesh!

          • Truth

            Brilliantly summed-up. YOU should take part in the next Leader’s Debate .. ;)

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            Your argument collapses when we see that in no other country in such a situation has a religious group been forced to carry out such ceremonies.

          • Jesus_Mohammed

            But, Terry, why are YOU so fearful of losing those “protections” for religious loons? You don’t believe in “the gobbledegook”, do you? Holy Ghost and Immaculate Conception?

          • Neil UK

            There is perfectly adequate protection built into the UK legislation. Farage feeds these lies and people who seem intelligent swallow it. The effect of years of anti-European brainwashing on the gullible.

  • MarkB

    Without the ECHR we would not have made the gains we have made over the last 30 years or so.

    As someone who was kicked out of the Royal Navy, in the early 80’s I would not have received any form of redress without the ECHR, nor would we now have openly gay servicemen and women in our armed forces.

    I know what party I WILL NOT support at the next election! UKIP!, I will not waste my vote on that bunch of bigoted loons.

    The Tories don’t want us in the ECHR and want to scrap the human rights act. These are the only things that often protect citizens from bad governance or laws against minority’s. They see it as interfering with parliamentary supremacy and their inherent right to rule us, as they see fit.

    • Terry

      Hardly. The European “justice” system allows British citizens to be taken to countries they’ve never been to stand trial for crimes that don’t exist in this country. There is *no* protection for ordinary citizens from bad *foreign* governance while the ECHR is in place.

      • David Jordan

        Kind of sounds like what the UK’s extradition treaties allows it to do to the citizens of other states, I don’t see anything in UKIP’s policies about getting rid of those.
        By the way, you do know the ECHR has nothing to do with European arrest warrents, those are issued by police forces and have been used by British forces many times and can be challenged in both national and European courts?
        In fact, doesn’t UKIP complain about how hard it is to extradite anyone to or from the UK due to European human rights laws?

      • Bobbleobble

        So does our extradition treaty with the US but I don’t believe UKIP want out of that do they? The ECHR on the other hand makes sure that no one in Europe will be sent somewhere where they will receive an unfair trial or face the possibility of torture or execution.

        Your last sentence is meaningless.

      • MarkB

        This is the sort of rubbish often spouted by UKIP and their ilk. You are completely wrong! The ECHR has nothing to do with European arrest warrants.

        So here are some FACTS rather than the rubbish we hear from UKIP and the right of the Tory party.

        The ECHR
        Drafted in 1950 by the then newly formed Council of Europe, the convention entered into force on 3 September 1953. Long before the EU came into being. European arrest warrants come under a Europe wide Framework decision (see below).

        European Arrest Warrants.
        The European Arrest Warrant was established by an EU framework decision in 2002. Framework decisions were legal instruments of the third pillar of the European Community akin to directives and only take effect when implemented by EU member states by transposing them into their domestic law.

        So as is being currently discussed by members of our parliament. It is a member states decision whether or not to be a member of that separate system or not. There is a move to alter our treaty obligations, by act of parliament.

        May I point out that prior to the establishment it was still possible and in fact common for criminals to be extradited between member states with some notable exceptions (Spain)

      • Jesus_Mohammed

        Please supply a list of examples of the situation which you are asserting has occurred.

      • Neil UK

        Complete nonsense. Why do UKIP supporters have such a fear of the truth (or fear of checking their facts), preferring instead to blindly swallow all the lies of Farage and the Daily Heil?

    • Paul

      So sorry about what happened to you in the RN and I know that happened to a great many good people. They were needlessly wasted by an organisation paranoid about homosexuality.
      I hope you managed to recover if perhaps never put it behind you.

      • MarkB

        It has had a huge effect on my life. and continues to do so till this day. After I left the Navy I found it impossible to find a job as my service documents said SNLR (Services No longer Required)

        I once discovered a male (ex forces) Employment adviser at the local Job centre had written on my notes . ‘This claimant is either queer or a drug user’ Needless to say I was less than happy about this and did create quite fuss at the job centre.

        This was however the early 80’s and things have changed enormously since then.

        When they announced the lifting of the ban on LGBT people serving in 2000 I have to admit I burst into tears.

        Thanks for your kind comment Paul.

    • RJBrown

      Sorry to hear you were kicked out of the RN back in the early 80s. That said, we have made huge moves forward and on 7 June 2014 there will be an event for LGBT armed forces. Please go to http://www.rainbow-citizen.com and the ‘events’ page for 7 June 2014 for more information.

      • MarkB

        I really wish I could attend but sadly finances do not permit it. :(

    • █ █ █ €ώąɲ█ █ █

      The problem is the ECHR has lost its way of late. In some member countries like Latvia or Romania they haven’t ruled on the homophobic laws that exist in those places still, but yet they have the time to rule on stuff that nobody wants like giving prisoners votes !

      As a gay guy who is considering enlisting as a reservist it is good these laws exist but the ECHR should go back to the way it was back then. But it has lost its way. I don’t think it looks after people like us anymore

      • MarkB

        Hi Ewan. You seem to be under the mistaken view that the ECHR arbitrary make rulings. A case has to be submitted to them and then only after all domestic remedy’s have been exhausted. I am sure that in the fullness of time they will make rulings about Romania and Latvia, but not until a case is before them.

        I can tell you from experience that this can take years. My case took 10 years.

        As for the ruling about prisoner voting. They have NOT said that ALL prisoners should be given the vote but that to stop ALL prisoners voting is arbitrary. Therefore (and there is a level of support for this) Prisoners serving short sentences should get a vote. Why loose your right to vote for a simple driving offence that can lead to jail when you can not afford the fine? That is just one example.

        Also for some offenders voting could be part of the rehabilitation and reintegration processes.

        You have to understand that when you have a framework for human rights, then those rights apply to everyone, equally and without favour. You can not say I want my human rights observed and then argue that a specific group of people can not have those same rights. That sounds rather like the facile arguments of the religious right in opposing LGBT rights.

  • Richard Ball

    Amazingly enough the Court hasn’t been flooded by cases from Spain or France against the Catholic Church or any other religious building so why does Farage believe it will be. Furthermore the Court wouldn’t want to start imposing rulings on religious institutions as it would be a violation of Freedom of Religion. All Farage is good at is scare mongering when he should stop that and properly look at the court rulings and actually tell the public the truth of what is happening.

    • 2hats

      if Farage told the public the truth his party would collapse instantly. their entire existence relies on people buying into Daily Mail myths about the EU.

      • Terry

        Hardly true. And if it was, so what? Do you think the other three parties don’t rely on myths?

        • saintlaw

          Only thick gobshites or total loons support UKIP.

          You seem to alternate from one to the other.

        • Jesus_Mohammed

          Terry, if you are gay or bisexual and you vote UKIP you will be voting for a very dangerous party, one that has not clearly demonstrated its commitment to your dignity and equal rights as a homosexual or bisexual citizen. Beware. You need to think very very carefully about this.

    • Terry

      Probably because the Spanish and French ignore ECHR and ECJ rulings.

      • MarkB

        Oh dear Terry keep taking the medication. It is another Myth perpetrated by UKIP, The right of the Tory party and our wonderful right wing media.

      • Neil UK

        Of course they don’t! What would be the point of joining a body you intend to ignore. The FACT (sorry, dirty word to UKIP) is that the ECHR was established after the Second World War to prevent the repetition of the atrocities and human rights abuses suffered by so many French citizens as well as other Europeans. Spain, sadly, continued as a fascist state until the death of Franco, so Spaniards appreciate the need for the ECHR MORE than other nations, Portugal excepted (also one of the Fascist states).

  • Richard Ball

    There are numerous countries which have same sex marriage what are also members of the ECHR (Belgium, Denmark, France, Iceland, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain and Great Britain) and through all this the none of the States have been brought to the Court for not having faith communities marry them and there is very little possibility that if there was a case that it would be heard, because of the freedom of religion which is a key part of the convention. Furthermore the Court would not risk to alienate numerous faith groups by imposing on them a judgment declaring that they must marry same sex couples. It is ridiculous to suggest that the Court would attempt to do so when they have already previously ruled that gay marriage is not a human right.

    • Truth

      You should write to Farrage – see if you get a response. Then publish both.

  • Colin

    UKIP are nutters. Don’t give them any headspace.

    • Jesus_Mohammed

      Yes, indeed. However, WE have to take action because UKIP are acquiring a great deal of support amongst the Mr & Mrs Joe’s out there, who are extremely backward people, who’d strip “the queers” of equal rights without a second thought.

    • Neil UK

      Our Tea Party.

  • Paul

    Mr Barrage keeps trying to link the ECHR and the EU but they are different entities completely.
    The UK was one of the founding members and original signatories to the ECHR.

    • MarkB

      We where one of the main nations to draught the convention in the wake of WW2. What would it say about our commitment to human rights and how much harm would it do to our country’s reputation if we pulled out?

      • Truth

        That’s why Farrage has used this as a bluff tactic. He needs to been perceived as anti-gay to secure the ‘religious bigot’ vote. But he knows UK withdrawal from the ECHR is impossible. Job done!

    • Robert W. Pierce

      Farage also forgets that the UK was the key member which helped draft many of the ECHR laws. Lord Lester of Herne Hill played a significant role in it. A brilliant man who championed the marriage bill in the upper chamber. He wiped the floor with Lord Dear and other loons with their slippery slope nonsense and corrected them on many errors in their ill-informed interpretation of ECHR law relating to marriage and other equality issues.

    • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

      Of course, he relies on the fact that the majority of his support is from bigoted, racist, ignorant knuckle-draggers who can’t read anything beyond a Daily Mail headline.

      I looked at the BBC HYS comments on this yesterday, and it was embarrassing to read through. I said before that UKIP is basically a xenophobic party that doesn’t understand anything beyond the hyperbolic scare mongering of the tabloid press, and those just confirmed that for me.

      Try explaining to these people how we are better off right now than we would be outside of the EU, attempt to explain the numerous economic benefits, attempt to show examples of how leaving would result in the loss of millions of jobs and a drain on talent here, and they will all come back with “yeah, but look at all the foreigners!!!!!”

      These people are lunatics, and it’s deeply unsettling that UKIP even has the level of support it does.

      • Neil UK

        At the risk of invoking Godwin’s Law, it has to be said that the parallels between Farage and a small “comical” Austrian corporal are scary. Failed politician using hatred and distrust of “immigrants”, homosexuals and socialists to garner support and votes. Farage will lie, twist and deceive, as Hitler did, setting the Reichstag ablaze to excuse a “crackdown” on Jews. What would UKIP do? Truly terrifying.

  • Paul

    UKIP seem to want to protect the established church and all the established systems. There is nothing in their outlook that is progressive in terms of nationhood or liberty.

    • Roku

      And yet they call themselves libertarians lol.

    • Jesus_Mohammed

      UKIP is the BNP in an “acceptable” guise. Full stop. Farrage has got a cupboardful of BNP policies waiting in the wings. But he’s not constantly blotting his copybook in the way that the BNP so frequently did. Not in the eyes of his 1000s of followers, at least.

  • cel

    Bull***. He doesn’t support same sex marriage because he’s an idiot

    • Jesus_Mohammed

      An idiot and a secrete homophobe.

      • ESCG

        I was going to say it’s not secret, but then I realised you said “secrete”. So, I agree, his homophobia is secreted all over.

  • Paula Thomas

    I knew this guy was weird but…

  • Robert W. Pierce

    Farage never said he would support equal marriage if the UK withdrew from the ECHR. He said he would take a look at it. UKIP will NEVER support it otherwise all of their disaffected little England Tory right wing loons will depart in droves.

    • Truth

      Isn’t this all a little academic anyway? Once gay marriage has begun, you can’t undo it …. so why is he on about ‘supporting’ it?

  • Darren McCabe-Hay

    Can’t we just kick Farrage out of the country? The man and his party are bigoted beyond belief.

    Whether we like it or not, this country cannot afford to withdraw from the EU and not just because of the ECHR

  • Truth

    Clever get-out move. To attract the ‘religious bigot’ vote, he needs to be seen as anti-gay. He knows Britain will never withdraw from the ECHR. Voila!

  • Liam
  • Liam

    He either hasn’t fully read and understood the bill, or he has and is just pandering to anti gay elements of his party. It is OPT IN. Section 2 has been called a ‘quadruple lock’ for good reason.

  • VP

    Oh, if only it were true! I long for the day that bigoted religious groups are forced to conform to equality legislation, like everyone else is.

    A shopkeeper cannot refuse their services to gay people. An employer cannot refuse his services to gay people. A school or university cannot refuse its services to gay people. Everyone else is legally forbidden from discriminating in their provision of goods and services, and jolly right too.

    But when you claim to be a religious institution – i.e. your excuse is a demonstrably ridiculous one involving a belief in magic and goblins and monsters that don’t exist – somehow society lets you get away with being a discriminatory bigot. But only if your belief is from a fairly narrow range of long-held nonsense, funnily enough. If a wedding photographer refuses to offer his services to a gay couple because he’s terrified of vampires, we don’t let him, but if a vicar refuses because he’s terrified of gods we somehow do. It’s all ridiculous, and none of it should be an excuse for discrimination.

    It must end. Religious groups that offer marriage services must be forced to marry everyone or no-one at all. They are not special and there will not be true equality until they are.

  • AndyAS

    I would have thought that should Nigel Farage and his cronies ever achieve any measure of power in the UK we will need the ECHR more than ever.

  • Mihangel apYrs

    Farrage needs to get his act together:

    ECHR is one of the UK’s finest products. The Council of Europe (where we were v influential) in 1950 established it as a reaction to the Nazi death camps. It has f*** all to do with the EU, and nothing to do with loss of sovereignty

  • Robert W. Pierce

    I think Farage should seriously consider moving to Russia! So much in common with Russian values hasn’t he?

  • David L. Gold

    Nigel Farage’s opinion about same-gender civil marriage is as worthy of attention and as influential as would be his opinion about whether Victoria should have been crowned Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland.

  • Daniel

    Interesting how a number of people believe it’s acceptable to hand away human/civil rights. Stupidity, it seems, knows no bounds.

  • GulliverUK

    Yet another waste of online space – a story devoted to someone who doesn’t rank, figure, matter or count. Why on earth would anyone want his support? He is irrelevant, his party has zero MPs, zero influence, he won’t even be asked to support a government – he has no MPs, and thus it is impossible for him to add his ZERO MPs and make up a government. This posturing is seriously stupid. I don’t care what he thinks, I don’t care what any of his candidates think, I don’t care if I never hear the word UKIP every again … in fact, I’d prefer not wasting time on this bigot.

    I’m gay, I don’t need Nigel Farage’s approval — in fact, I most definitely don’t want it. Equal marriage is law, nothing this worthless piece of human flotsam says will change that. His party sank long ago.

  • Madgeographer

    Yeah… Let’s get rid of all human rights, that’s UKIP. UKIP are just fascists wearing sheep’s skin and a tie. Intelligence is comparable to vegetable. Farage should be ashamed for what he does to LGBT people.

  • CHBrighton

    Long live the ECHR!

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