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Columnist Julie Burchill: Trans women are just ‘big white blokes who have cut their cocks off’

  • Mark Y

    If that was Burchill commenting, she is a seriously bitter bigoted poisonous hag.

  • Josh

    Apart from the transphobic nonsense, the most dangerous thing about this article is that it assumes that transgender rights come at the price of women’s rights. Like it’s a trade-off.

    We can, should, and must want it all. Recognition and respect regardless of gender, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, gender identity, the lot.

    If people campaigning against bigotry start picking fights with each other, we will be divided and lose to a far greater enemy. Bigotry may come in many forms, but it’s still the same evil.

  • TomSatsuma

    What a nasty piece of work.

    And while I understand anger at the patriarchy, I sometimes wonder how effective it is for some feminists to try so hard to make enemies of men (which is what Burchill is doing here – as well as erroneously including Paris in that category).

    Surely the movement aims (in part) to change the way men treat women, surely you want them on side.

    On the whole the gay movement manages to criticise the way society treats gay people without making it against straight people.

    Those few black civil rights groups that demonised white people have generally all been dismissed as radicals and fundamentalists.

    I honestly believe Burchill is as damaging to the feminist movement as any part of the patriarchy.

    I find it very hard to understand what would drive someone to hate a class of people so vociferously.

    • Eduard

      She does not hate all men. She used to be quite impressed by Slobodan Milosevic back in the day.

  • onna

    We all know she’s a bigot so let her keep talking, every word she writes just isolates her further from anyone who is rational. Responding with anger to people like this is simply a waste of time.

  • http://twrl.github.com/ Tom Robbins

    She’s not a radical feminist, she’s a misandrous bigot. A radical feminist challenges ideas of what femininity is, where it comes from, and how it should be received. This, to me, looks like a feminine analog of the whole “how dare you challenge my machismo!” lunacy that afflicts so many cisgender heterosexual men.

    • Indi Edwards Roughsedge

      the correct term for her is TERF.

    • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

      I hate the modern version of “feminism”. It’s become a radicalized group of fanatical lunacy, with women dictating to the world how other women should live, according to their almost religiously zealous ideals.

      I was recently involved in a FB discussion with a group of “feminists” who want to ban porn, sensor the internet and criminalize sexuality in media, blaming all the ills of society on adult entertainment. They were confronted with rational arguments, statistics and genuine debate, and they resorted to calling all men rapists and child abusers when they couldn’t produce any data or evidence to support their notions.

      This is not feminism, it’s a sick and twisted fanaticism with a minority group of women desperate to inflict their views and notions onto society, not unlike any other religious or moralistic group of crusaders.

      The genuine feminists of the past must be disgusted with how their movement has been hijacked by these lunatics.

  • Hope

    There have been 3 if not more articles about the Paris Lees article, all highly critical and saying it is anit feminist, on various feminist blogs and news sites. They just dont bother to comment on the article itself as women aren’t interested in helping the click rate which is the intention of the article being commissioned by patriarchal editors. This is not because feminists hate the trans community, but just dont accept their right to speak for feminists. And it is exactly for this reason that articles like this get commissioned. Feminists are too savvy about the patriarchy to fall for this cheap click bait. But JB is after all a media commentator and thrives on it. Feminists think the issue of discrimination and objectification of women by men is too important to be the subject of media fodder.

    • Liz Ashton

      Just remember that they aren’t even speaking for the vast majority of feminists, but only for a tiny group of Radfems. They get the media voice purely because they are so controversial, they act as click bait and raise revenue for the newspaper involved.

      • Steve Cheney

        I’d almost say it’s unfair to call her a radfemmer. She is part of a crowd that were in that movement at one time, and who now constantly congratulate and defend one another via their articles, usually when one of them has said something utterly awful about another minority.

        To me, she’s a self-interested working-class conservative who happens to be a woman. Radical feminism was a good racket, and it provided an intellectual justification for her self-interest. It makes total sense that, when confronted with another minority group desperate for equality, she cannot see why she would be expected to support them – after all, she’s not part of that group, so she would see them as competition, not as allies.

  • David Greensmith

    Julie Burchill is scum. She is the worst of shock, “look at me, look at me” trolls but the media organs allow her to get away with it because she provokes a reaction. Suzanne Moore, Bindel and she are a triumvirate of transphobic bigots who complain when they are oppressed as women, but have no problem at all with the oppression of other people. I’m always disappointed when people who belong to a disadvantaged minority express their own bigotry (racist gay people, homophobic black people and so on). They miss the key point that if any group is oppressed, it damages us all. No one group is more deserving the right to be free and equal than any other. Burchill may have apologised, but her apology is meaningless given her track record. “No human being who did not grow up a girl can call themselves a woman” – it seems that not every girl grows up to be a human being.

    • Stephanie Jayne Scott

      Suzanne Moore made a ill considered comment but that does not make her toransphobicDont label everyone who makes a mistake a transphobe. Some of the comments she received were vile..

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        But she could have just said, sorry I got it wrong. The reason, I think, that so many people get furious about such comments is that genuine transphobia exists. If someone were to deny my very existence, I can’t promise I might not stoop to abuse online.

      • oopster

        They keep making ill considered comments though. Abuse of anyone isn’t acceptable no matter the reason or provocation.

      • Steve Cheney

        Making mistakes is fine. Acknowledging that they were mistakes is fine. Apologising is fine. Admitting that trans people probably know more about the experience of trans people than she does would have been fine.

        What wasn’t fine was to use a few individuals who behaved inappropriately as a justification for what she did, never acknowledging that it was a mistake at all and never apologising.

        From what I know of Burchill, whom Moore was defending, it makes total sense to her that trans women are not real women; how she has chosen to define gender means that they fall outside that definition. Even that *could* be fine if she was willing to admit that that conception of gender is just one of many and that, despite the strength of her conviction, it’s not proven indisputable fact.

        But none of that really justifies her callous dismissal of people. I don’t really accept that it can be called a “mistake”. If you push someone over in the street, unprovoked, you could say “sorry, that was a mistake”; but I think it would be reasonable for people to say “no, that clearly *was* what you meant to do” and expect an actual apology.

      • Friesjones

        Suzanne Moore started out by making a small error in judgement, but as soon as she received the mildest of complaints she let her transphobic flag fly free with her extremely insulting “cut their dicks off and be more feminist than me” retort, which came well before the ubiquitous Internet Troll Army started sending her the usual anonymous threats that the internet misogynists send to cis and trans women alike. It’s not unusual for bigots to hide their bigotry under normal circumstances, but as soon as they feel at all stressed by the targets of their bigotry the ugly stuff comes boiling out like it was just waiting for an excuse.

        Suzanne Moore doesn’t deserve your defense of her character. A simple “Sorry about that ‘Brazilian Transsexual’ remark, it was wrong and I won’t do it again” would have sufficed on her part. But by making her angry and thoughtlessly-bigoted retorts, Moore generated the Streisand Effect on her transphobia, drawing more and Moore attention to it the harder she tried to deny it.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          Yes, how dare she not apologise when ordered to do so and how dare she get angry and defensive. How awful of her, she must be labelled a transphobe forever more and damned to the ninth circle of hell

          • Friesjones

            Yes, exactly HOW DARE SHE. How dare she double down on a bigoted statement when it’s pointed out? Oh, that’s right, I know how it is that she dares to do so: Privilege. She knows that she can foam at the mouth all that she wants without fear of social repercussions because she is privileged far above the people she’s denigrated. Even a mild “hey get your foot off my neck” from a trans woman attracts haters like you to meta-complain about the trans complaints, because trans women aren’t allowed to complain, only cis people can complain, like you’re doing right now with your sad attempt at sarcasm.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Thank you for proving my point.

          • Friesjones

            Your point being that you think transphobia is totally kewl? How original of you. How do you manage to stay so objective about someone else’s oxen being gored? Is it an innate talent or did you have to train?

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            You ask a question then answer it yourself, so there’s no point in me talking to you. Bye bye.

          • Friesjones

            Thank you for proving MY point, you pointless troll.

          • Glenn Olson

            Interesting that *she* has the right to get angry and defensive, but not those she insulted.

            That smells like privilege to me.

        • Friesjones

          In case anyone is still interested in the truth behind Suzanne Moore’s transphobia, here is a Storify of the very Twitter exchange that revealed it:
          http://storify.com/krasejc/what-a-few-people-said-to-suzanne-moore

          And then this is what Julie Burchill said in response:
          http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100198116/here-is-julie-burchills-censored-observer-article/

      • Glenn Olson

        I didn’t see the comments, so I’ll take your word that some of them were indeed vile.
        So was Karla Homolka. Seems out of context, but let me explain: one doesn’t judge the whole of womanhood by the example set by Karla without being a misogynist. By similar extension, one can’t judge transpersons as a whole by the examples set by a few vile commenters without straying into transphobia.

      • Dana Taylor

        She made a mistake in an article. A cis woman mentioned it as being transphobic and Suzanne went on transphobic rant on twitter.

    • Rumbelow

      Unfortunately for Julie Burchill she grew up an ar$e and now she’s no longer a “yoof” commentator is apparently suffering from the fat, boring, old actress syndrome and will say anything outrageous to get attention, totally vile, totally irrelevant, totally forgettable.

      So unlike this.

      http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_md6qev1kXh1qa70eyo1_500.jpg

      • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

        And more misogyny. How very illuminating

        • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

          Totally different to her making insulting and generalized statements and insults toward others though, right?

          You’re very quick to jump to her defense, while commenting on the misogyny of posters here, choosing to ignore the fact that she blatantly attacked and insulted an entire group of people.

          Why are you defending her obvious and vocal bigotry, while commenting on the much lesser offenses of people here? It makes me suspicious of your motives and intentions.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I haven’t actually defended anything JB has said – I don’t need to, she’s perfectly capable of defending herself. But if you think it’s reasonable to use misogyny to tackle “transphobia”, then I have absolutely nothing more to say to you.

          • Rumbelow

            What you may perceive and label to be misogyny is due to your own warped vision and comprehension Julie.
            I see pastiche and plagiarism re the sexual pose with the leopard, you say you see something you’ve decided to see because you are a troll attempting to flame.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            me too, I’ve asked over and over does he agree with Julie Burchill’s comments re: transgender people…

        • Rumbelow

          Take your curlers out they are twisting your small mind.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Ah, I see the teeds have arrived. Nothing to say, no thoughts, just…nothing. Bye bye

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            What the F are teeds, FF?

          • Friesjones

            Don’t tell me, let me guess: You’re a radical feminist separatist with a homophobic username and a pantomime drag character’s picture for an avatar who trolls every trans related thread topic with support for the transphobes and snotty jabs at the people you perceive to be trans. You keep your comments Protected so that people can’t see what a creep you really are.

            Pretty close, right?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Wrong!! But I do believe, if he cleared up the question of whether or not he believes Julie Burchill’s comments to be transphobic or not, you might not be so confused about his identity.

  • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

    Paris Lees’ article was an absolute bloody disgrace

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      no comment on JB’s continuing transphobia, FF?

      • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

        No

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          Why not FF, do you agree with her?

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Well, in this instance, I was commenting on something else.

          • saintlaw

            You really are a squeaky little worm aren’t you? Lacking even the courage of your bigotry.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            What bigotry? Please feel free to point to any bigoted comments I have made. Or alternatively, just go away, troll

          • Natasha

            Done. See my comment above where I show that supporting a transphobic bigot is the same as being a transphobic bigot.

    • Steve Cheney

      What specifically didn’t you like about it?

      • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

        The celebration of the street harassment of women was more than a little distasteful, which was compounded by the general vacuity of the piece.

        • Natasha

          Does this justify Burchill’s denial of Lees’ right to decide her own gender identity & existence, a denial Burchill’s been publicly pedalling against ALL trans women for years ?

    • Eva

      I agree

    • Karen St John

      Yes, Paris Lees’ article was indeed a disgrace. Catcalls are awful to endure, and the lowbrow men who hurl them are acting in a fashion that would embarass a Neanderthal man. Julie Burchill’s Neanderthal smear on ALL transsexual women is not a fit refutation, however. Lot’s of disgraceful, distateful words flying about. Neither woman is in the right.

    • Natasha

      FF, please elaborate ?

  • CHBrighton

    The two articles appear to be a spat between provocative writers who enjoy conjuring up extreme attitudes in their work. Likely, to do this is in their contract with whichever organ they’re pumping from in a given week. I’ve never enjoyed Ms Burchill’s work as it’s always seemed to me to be just self-indulgent ranting. I view Paris Lee’s work as being in similar vein. Reacting to them just makes them worse.

    • Steven Gregory

      We have the same kind of woman authors in the U.S., they’re simply throwing out anything slimy and hoping it sticks. They they launch into a new book and on a speaking tour. And when everything cools and the money slows, they start up again.

      • Ciaran

        I hate Burchill and she is a transphobe no doubt but do not dismiss the patriarchy it effects women and it also effects gay men especially more than lesbians it was responsible for the restriction of womens rights in the west until late 1960s and early 70s and it is responsible for the oppression gay men and LGBTQ rights. If their was no patriarchy there would be no homophobia and no misogyny within society.

        • yewtree

          The concept of kyriarchy works better.

      • Phoenix

        Is it really necessary to categorise them as ‘woman authors’? I can think of just as many men who are just as badly behaved in such a fashion. Gender might be relevant in some respects, but with regard to ‘sliminess’ I don’t think it’s relevant and it further perpetuates misogynistic stereotypes.

        • Steve Cheney

          I suppose it’s because, on some level, we expect women authors to recognise some kinship with other minorities, and not use them as punchbags.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Women aren’t a minority. And what about the trans activists who used Suzanne Moore as a punch bag?

          • Steve Cheney

            Oh, be off with your whataboutery. “Trans activists” getting angry (at something that obviously would make them angry) and behaving badly doesn’t justify anything. So there are assholes on both sides; doesn’t change a thing.

          • Phoenix

            does ‘disenfranchised classes’ work better for you?

          • Steven Gregory

            You’re trying to make misogyny out of nothing.

          • Phoenix

            @disqus_HCNicr8T8y:disqus I wasn’t suggesting that you were being misogynistic, simply that the way you worded the statement itself means that it could be construed as such. My second post was in response to Flaming Fairy and was a point on semantics, not ‘trying to make misogyny’ out of anything.

          • rochefoucauld

            I’m sorry but this is nonsense. The ‘abuse’ that Moore received was not from trans activists or allies. Moore herself went on a very nasty rant on Twitter and that is what sparked the outrage at her – it wasn’t so much about the “Brazilian transsexual” line. You can look it up for yourself if you like.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I’ve seen the abuse Moore received and reject your revisionist version of history.

          • rochefoucauld
          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Nicely edited

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And Julie Burchill is carrying on and carrying on paying back, FF. It’s time she stopped.

        • Steven Gregory

          Hints of misogyny in my statement are unfounded. In discussions of feminism, delineation of gender is absolutely important. Mere mention of gender doesn’t constitute gender bias. WOMEN AUTHORS are a valid professional category, don’t be afraid to discuss them.

    • maddierose

      . Thank you for saying that. I don’t like TERFS, nor do I have a very high opinion of Burchill, but I went and read Lees’ original article, and it was really upsetting and frankly, pretty sexist. She dismisses anti-harassment work that at this point I believe MILLIONS of women are participating in by arguing that these women have been infantilised and taught to be reflexively afraid of men, that it’s just class prejudice from snotty middle-class women, and most annoyingly, by pulling out a variation of “my black friend” and quoting a couple of other individual women who also have some positive experiences of catcalling.
      What is upsetting about Lees’ argument is not that she enjoys catcalling. Sometimes I do too. When someone tells you you are beautiful, it feels good. But she has structured her article so that women are being blamed for what’s problematic about street harassment: it’s not that men normatively abuse, harass, and assault women in public. No, feminists are humorless, joyless, classist women who are cut off from their ability to take pleasure in being sexually appealing.
      I’m a queer bi ciswoman- I have had a lot of experiences where feminists, especially lesbian feminists, were pretty awful to me. I would be surprised if Lees’ experiences were any more positive and would guess that actually, they have been much worse than my own. It’s hard to not reflexively be a jerk when someone has repeatedly been a jerk to you. But Lees’ article is disingenuous, unkind, and poorly structured, and it kind of feels like the flaws in her own work are there because she is dismissing the sexism of the patriarchy in order to jab at the sexism of feminists.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        I don’t agree with what Paris Lees said but that was absolutely no excuse for Julie Burchill’s transphobic comments.

  • Steven Gregory

    If she were happy and content with herself, she wouldn’t be such an acrid thing. She’s just stewing in pickling juices and everything about that picture says nobody wants to open the jar, take a whiff and and a bite: too bitter, too sour, too acidic, and slightly rancid.

  • Ally

    Who is this sad woman?

    • Adrian Morgan

      I don’t know – no name was given as the author of this “article”.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        No-one is denying it is accurate.

  • Stephen MOLE

    I’m not sure that I understand the furore here. That ‘no real credibility’ Burchill just shouts her ugly fat gob off to keep in the public eye. Doesn’t everyone know that already?

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    Julie Burchill’s transphobic comments are a disgrace to any decent minded human being.

  • Steve Cheney

    Burchill seems to exist to confirm every stupid belief anybody has about feminism. She is one of a small cadre of journalists who appear to have been in feminism purely out of self-interest, which is why they find the idea of supporting any other group in getting equality so abhorrent and confusing. So unsurprising to see her suckling at the teat of the Spectator. She is Boris Johnson with tits.

  • Colin

    I have no time or respect for the childish behavior of Julie Burchell. I don’t waste my time on anything she says.

    • Adrian Morgan

      Your considered assessment of her personality and her psychology would be helped if you can spell her name right…

      • Colin

        Just maybe that says it all…

        • Adrian Morgan

          Perhaps… but it seems you are reacting to a biased article (which has no official “author”) and just reacting. If you were truly familiar with Julie Burchill or her output to any depth to be able to criticise her “behaviour”, you would not have misspelled her name.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I can spell her name correctly: Julie Burchill. And I’ve read her writing since her NME days. So perhaps I may be permitted to criticise her derogatory and offensive language about specifically MTF transgender people?

          • Adrian Morgan

            Well award yourself a prize and bathe yourself in a puddle of your own self-satisfaction. You’re the people’s hero/heroine, sticking up for every knob end who is going along with the prevailing two minutes of hate.

  • Katie B

    I’m so tired of this jackboot.

  • TampaZeke

    My my my, it sounds like she’s a bit bitter that transgender women are prettier and more feminine than she is.

    • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

      That’s a very stupid misogynist comment

      • Piquette

        Don’t trans women simply adore a sexist, stupid man? He could validate them with his misogyny!

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          And I’m not a trans woman, as you know. I dislike both misogyny and transphobia. The trouble with transphobia is that is often more than an insult, it questions someone’s actual identity and existence.

          • Indi Edwards Roughsedge

            Transphobia is dangerous it gives people license to discriminate and act violently towards trans* woman mostly. Why trans woman and not trans men because MYSOGYNY that’s why. We live in a patriarchal world. TERFs are no different to the men they hate.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Some things that have been labelled “transphobic”question the gender binary and the way certain kinds of trans politics support it.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            The law protects the right for gender identity to be respected. Ms Burchill doesn’t respect this right. She is transphobic. Simple equation.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Whatever. Whether JBR is or is not a transphobe is the least interesting part of this entire story, IMO

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And, for me, it is a key party of the story FF. Because she has a national platform to impart her views. She is the one who holds the ‘power’ here and is using it against an already vulnerable group. So, excuse me if I can’t shrug that off by saying ‘whatever’.

          • Natasha

            And the most interesting part is… ?

          • Natasha

            @Flaming Fairy: “…certain kinds of trans politics support [gender binary]…” but NOT all trans politics or people, yet you actively and very vigorously support Burchill, Bindel & Moore’s denal of ALL trangender women’s right to exist, insisting for example they are “men” not “women” despite there being in law only two categories; despite the existence of intersex …
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
            … that dissolves those two categories into a rainbow of possibilities rendering self determination of ones own gender the only rational real determinant of a person’s gender; and sex gene ambiguity; depsite “John Money, a psychologist as well as a sexologist, [who] studied sexual identity and gender, and coined the term gender identity.
            He has said that the overall sense of gender was “privately
            experienced” and “publicly manifest” regardless of biological sex and genital anatomy”…
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
            … and despite “The high frequency of people with sex chromosome aberrations [which] is partly due to the fact that they are rarely lethal conditions”…
            http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm
            … which also dissolves the male or female categories into a rainbow of possibilities rendering self determination of ones own gender the only rational real determinant of a person’s gender.

            And despite denying all of this, or simply being ignorant of it, you STILL actively and very vigorously support Burchill, Bindel & Moore’s denal of ALL trangender women’s right to exist BUT then go on to deny that makes you a bigot too?

            Wow…. you have got balls Flaming Fairy.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        And you still can’t spot transphobia, FF. I’m a woman and I find her comments far more offensive than that.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          Do you? And you think a way to counter that is to make misogynist remarks?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I do and I’ll tell you why FF. Comments like that are offensive. Comments like Ms Burchill’s are not merely offensive but question the very right of someone to exist the way they do. So far, far more serious. I say that as a woman. You’re a man.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            So let me get this right. Transphobic comments bad, misogynist comments fine? And me being a man has what relevance here?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            No, read what I said. Misogynist comments are not fine, I’ve just said it was offensive. Are you trying to score points here or genuinely trying to have a conversation? The point is, FF, that I, as a woman,have experienced misogynistic comments, you, as a man, haven’t. I’d say that was pretty damn relevant.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I asked you if you thought misogynist comments were a way counter JB’s comments. You said you thought they were. Don’t have a go at me for you being unclear.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Read what I said. I said they were offensive. I was in no way unclear. I used the word offensive. Go check.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Me: “Do you? And you think a way to counter that is to make misogynist remarks?”

            You: “I do and I’ll tell you why FF”

            You can see where any misunderstanding may have crept in, and it certainly wasn’t my fault.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You have constantly tried to make it look like I’m siding with misogyny. The ‘yes’ was replying to why I find the transphobia MORE offensive here. Both are offensive BUT Julie Burchill’s comments are MORE offensive than the comment she received back because, AS WELL AS being offensive, they are casting aspersions about someone’s actual identity and being. It is something essential not superficial. Is that clear enough for you?

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Yes.

            There was misunderstanding. I don’t hate you for it!

          • TampaZeke

            Poe’s Law.

            Look it up!

      • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

        I think fighting fire with fire is a good tactic. What TampaZeke has just said is tongue-in-cheek, what this vile woman says is directly attacking and abusing a whole swathe of people.

        There is a big difference.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          So JB could then argue that she was fighting fire with fire.

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            For attacking other groups of people based on her own ignorance and bigotries? No, you’re obviously confused.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I think you’re the one who’s confused if you think fighting fire with fire is a reasonable response

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            I think it’s an expected response, and in this context, with that presentation, it’s hardly comparable to the bigoted things the woman said.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            So would it be OK if people were racist towards black people who said things they didn’t like?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            and for attacking another group of people who are already vulnerable, using her position of power as a journalist…..

      • TampaZeke

        Is trolling blogs for HOURS a day your job or your hobby? Do you get paid by the comment or by the hour? Who pays you, Daily Mail? You wouldn’t know misogyny if she sat on your face. My last comment was in no way misogynistic. “You’re a stupid, ugly bitch”; THAT’S misogynistic. Now, go away before a house falls on you.

    • Sister Mary Clarence

      I actually agree with you. That’s exactly how she appears to me.

      She seems affronted that transsexuals have not endured the struggle of growing up into womanhood … clearly overlooking the struggle growing up that most transsexuals could have endured.

      I think what damns here most though is her constant urge for publicity.

      She can’t grab headlines with anything sensible to say so she trots out this bile instead.

      Please God if I ever get this desperate for publicity, take me outside and shoot me, just shoot me.

  • Joanie Azusa Jolie

    Remarkable anger from Julie Burchill. What exactly are her fears here? This is all fear that instills hate.

  • Dave G

    Burchill’s “job” is to write provocative controversial drivel that
    deliberately sets out to upset people and get a reaction which brings
    hotly-desired self-publicity and ups newspaper sales. Same with Melanie
    Phillips, Amanda Platell, Peter Hitchens and numerous other ghastly
    ‘writers’ who populate the opinion columns of nasty newspapers and
    magazines. Who knows if they actually believe it personally? They would
    be out of a paycheck if they wrote sensible, liberal humane commentary
    which is fair and kind to all. Scapegoating is their stock in trade.
    Probably too late for them to get a proper job – too lazy to hack it.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      If she repeats it on her Facebook page, as she does, you know that she believes it.

    • James Justice

      Preposterous!

      I see you come from the ‘I don’t agree with them’ school, so I’ll say nasty/bad things about them.

      Have you actually read any Peter Hitchens? If you had then you’d know he was anti-global capitalism, anti-BNP, wants to re-nationalise the utilties and the railways, supported Cait Reilly (look her up) against the government and perhaps most importantly, was against the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and the West’s intervention in Libya and Syria.

      Is all of the above too right wing for you?

  • Sakyamuni

    I wonder how she feels about Female to Male Trans?

    Radical Fundamentalist Feminists often mock M2F Trans but rarely comment about F2M. It’s almost as if they ignore them in their misandry…

    I wonder if they call them “traitors”?

    • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

      Trans men seem not to have the as short a fuse as some trans women appear to have.

      • Steve Cheney

        Sorry, are you saying that Burchill et al didn’t attack F2M transfolk because they thought they wouldn’t get as much of a rise out of them?

      • Sakyamuni

        Go & Flame someone else darling, I’m not rising to your bait.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          I’m not your darling and I’m not baiting you, merely expressing an opinion. Sorry if that upset you.

          • Sakyamuni

            You didn’t upset me. Sorry I overreacted. It’s a bit difficult to appreciate someone’s motive by text. ;-)

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            No problem – thanks for the apology. Love & light (-:

      • Guest

        Your comments in this thread have been thoughtful and sincere, so I want to reply in the same manner. I’ve read articles about the effects of testosterone injections on trans men and those experiencing transition say it brings on aggressive feelings and sexual attitudes with much more urgency than they had anticipated.

      • Steven Gregory

        @gingerbeer63:disqus: Your comments in this thread have been thoughtful, so I want to reply in the same manner. I’ve read articles about the effects of testosterone injections on trans men and those experiencing transition say it brings on aggressive feelings and sexual attitudes with much more urgency than they had anticipated.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          That may be so, but the bullying of Moore and Bindel has been solely done by trans women.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And they have been the group attacked. Go figure, FF.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            “Attack” seems to mean “raise questions” or “make innocuous comparisons” for some of the more aggressive trans women. Their idea that the politics around gender identity should be a fixed dogma that we all sign up to rather than a contested and contestable area is what irks me.

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            Sorry FF, but lets not try to rewrite the facts to try to give a false impression.

            She has said some truly horrid things about a group of people. It’s not rational discussion or debate, it’s not “raising issues”, it’s an attack on people simply because they’re different, people whose lives have absolutely no bearing on her own, people who just want to have a good life and deal with the deck they’ve been given.

            Who the f*ck is she to jump in and start making statements about other people, as if her opinion is either wanted or needed, like she has some kind of “right” to dictate who those people are, what their lives are like, what their attitudes and opinions “should be”?

            A good way to get a firm grasp of whether it’s right or wrong would be to replace the people being attacked with Jewish people, or black people, then see how “acceptable” such opinions are.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I was talking about Bindel and Moore, both extensively bullied and vilified by trans women

          • Natasha

            FF, how would you recommend that “trans women” should react to years of being “extensively bullied and vilified” publicly and personally by Bindel, More & Bruchill ?

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            Extensively bullied and vilified by trans women? What, are you suggesting that they were just walking down the street minding their own business when a group of trans people started abusing them?

            What utter sh*te. The bullying and vitrifaction you are talking about is in direct response to their own arrogance and ignorance.

            Responding to a bully is not bullying. What you’re suggesting is akin to Republicans screaming discrimination because they are denied the right to discriminate against others.

            It’s clear who “started” this, what did they expect to happen when they start attacking other groups of people?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Absolutely!!!!!!!!!!!

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            “Attacking” – yeah, raising questions about the gender binary assumptions inherent in the diagnosis of gender dysphoria (Bindel) and making innocuous comparisons (Moore) is “attacking”.

            *rolls eyes*

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            Did you even read the things she wrote and then apologized for? I’m guessing not.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Who do you mean here? Julie Bindel or Suzanne Moore?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            “I wrote: “Those who ‘transition’ seem to become
            stereotypical in their appearance — f**k-me shoes and birds’ nest hair for the boys; beards, muscles and tattoos for the girls. Think about a world inhabited just by transsexuals. It would look like the set of Grease.”

            Gender dysphoria (GD) was invented in the 1950s by reactionary male psychiatrists in an era when men were men and women were doormats. It is a term used to describe someone who feels strongly that they should belong to the opposite sex and that they were born in the wrong body. GD
            has no proven genetic or physiological basis.”

            http://standpointmag.co.uk/the-operation-that-can-ruin-your-life-features-november-09-julie-bindel-transsexuals?page=1

          • April k

            “We the dominant majority are being oppressed by the minorities, our way of life is at stake!” Logic fail!

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            or gay people……

          • Natasha

            Or men, or women, or rad fems…

          • Adrian Morgan

            “Who the f*ck is she to jump in and start making statements about other people”….

            Er, one could also ask you the same question. She has just as much right to express her opinions as you do.

          • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

            Let me point out the difference…

            This is a debate about a talentless hack launching a hateful attack on a group of people, and using their position in media to propagate hatred, intolerance and bigotry. Everyone has a right to an opinion, it’s just that some of us use more intelligence and rationality.

            While one is using her opinions to attack an entire group of people, others expressing their opinions here are confronting that bigotry.

            One stands for bile and hatred, the other stands for the right for people to live their lives without being attacked by people who have no right to attack anyone.

            It’s pretty simple, it’s about choosing what is right and just and defending it. Anyone with even the most remote sense of what is right and wrong can see who is in the right here.

            She can express an opinion, but she can’t then bitch about it when people argue back. There are a lot of decent people in this country, and they outnumber this nasty creature ten-fold.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            It is the law FFS. Check it out FF. If she wants the law re: gender identity to be changed, she needs to stop wasting her time with these comments and do something about it. I’d oppose any proposals to change the law but at least an open debate would be honest and could be tackled properly.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Where has she said she wants the law changed?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            She implies it by not respecting people’s gender identity, FF. Can you not grasp that?

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Rubbish

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            The Gender Recognition Act

            The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (‘GRA’) provides transgendered people with legal recognition in their acquired gender. Legal recognition will be achieved when a gender recognition certificate is issued by a Gender
            Recognition Panel made up of at least one legally and one medically qualified member.

            The GRA does not require that the person has
            undergone gender reassignment treatment to qualify. Indeed, the GRA recognises the defining factor.

            The effect of obtaining a gender recognition certificate will be significant. For example, a male to female transsexual person will be legally recognised as a woman ‘for all purposes’ including the criminal law, entitlement to state benefits and occupational pension schemes. Importantly, she will also be entitled to be issued with a new birth certificate reflecting the changed gender and will be able to marry someone of the opposite sex or enter into a civil partnership with someone of the same sex.

            The GRA came into force in April 2005.

            So the law recognises their gender, Julie Burchill, as demonstrated by her language, does not. So ‘rubbish’ is a comment I will not accept FF.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            No, it really is rubbish. She does not imply or state or demand that the law be changed, contrary to what you said

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            She does not recognise their gender identity by her words. If she respects the law, she would. So, no, I am still not accepting your comment of ‘rubbish’.

          • Natasha

            The amendments to the 1975 SDA (1999 employment, & 2010 goods & Services) do not outlaw Burchill’s, Bindel’s or Moore’s transphobic attacks in their public writing or speeches. The ‘rags’ they write for wouldn’t allow it if it were.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        She doesn’t give a toss about FTM because they’re not threatening her narrow-minded view about what it means to be a woman, FF.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Same as those bigots who don’t care about us gay women but get all worked up about gay men. ‘Men’ are seen as the threat.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        I’ve done lots of reading recently and all the problems that people seem to have with transexuals seem to relate to MTF. Is it any wonder that they are angry and scared.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      See my answer to FF.

  • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

    Is anyone else finding Disqus buggy? Replies to me appear on my dashboard but then disappear when I try to reply back.

    • Steve Cheney

      Seems to be buggy for me too.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      No problems here, FF.

    • Natasha

      Buggy…

  • Mcandii

    Trans women should be proud of being trans and should stop pretend that they are anything other than that

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Correct me if I’m wrong but, for example, do not many MTF transexuals want to be accepted as trans women, not just trans?

      • Pandora Allen

        think you will find that the VAST majority of MtF transsexuals identify as women.. not trans (which implies some kind of “bloke in a frock fraudster” .. transgender nonsense).. but women.. both pre and post op. Mainly because we are and always have been. Isn’t it strange that we had none of this “deviant” abuse before being forcibly and against our consent “included” in the lgbtiq alphabet soup crap?.. sorry.. straight hetero woman, not lg-anything.. if the cap fits eh?

      • kane

        i meant to says ‘proud of being trans women’. but to paraphrase you, ‘correct me if I’m wrong but, for example, do not many MTF transexuals want to be accepted as women, not just trans women?

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          Absolutely!! I was mirroring your language by asking what I did. Yes, women – full stop!

    • Kara Connor

      Thanks for explaining what we should be. Got it.

    • Teresa Jean

      I’m not trans I’m, despite what that witch Julie Burchill says, a woman. There are white women or black women but they are normally generally classified as women. Why shouldn’t I be? Why does there need to be a special category of women called trans women?

    • TCZoey

      My medical background is mine to disclose if I feel the need to do so.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        As it should be.

  • Helge Vladimir Tiller

    Norway has only about 5 million inhabitants. But I do think they all, if they were asked, dislike this J. B. Should she “cut off” her head ?

  • Cal

    She’s just a silly cow. Don’t rise to it.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Too late, I’ve risen!

  • Erica Cook

    Granted women who didn’t grow up getting cat calls might find it afferming of their gender if they get it as an adult. That isn’t unique to MTF women. It is also the case when a young lady went through a time when she was ridiculed for being ugly, and then overcame that time. This woman cannot be called a feminist because she does not embrace all women. In fact she rejects some of the most vulnerable women out there. Perhaps a transgender woman made a tactless comment about female genital mutelation. That means that one woman is a jerk (insert any other word there you like). That one person no more represents the transgender community than this woman represents feminism. What she does represent is the next phase in sexism. “You aren’t good enough unless you are my kind of woman.”

    It is true that many transgender women have to learn things about being a woman as an adult that the rest of us learned as children. That no more makes them men than my not understanding the finer points of fashion make me a man. They missed a part of the learning time, and embrace any confirmation of them being women. That is more a sign of how completely they are rejected as women than anything.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    I had already posted the text below on the two Spectator sites that relate to Ms Burchill’s columns. As she’s still spouting her transphobic bile, that makes her a coward in my eyes.

    “A Challenge for Ms Burchill

    I believe:

    1. Gender dysphoria exists

    2. Treatment, including surgery, should be offered to alleviate the condition

    3. Gender identity should be respected

    Your transphobic slurs indicate that you don’t believe all/ some of
    the above. Current medical practice and legislation are on my side, not
    yours. So, if you want to change things, you need to do something about
    it. You’re got your shiny new column in The Spectator, start a campaign.
    Come out into the open and voice your concerns about 1. 2. and/or 3.
    above. If you’re not prepared to do that, you are in fact supporting the
    status quo. That gives you no right to sit on the sidelines tossing
    transphobic phrases like grenades. If you persist, it makes you a
    coward.

    So, put up or shut up.”

    • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

      I don’t think Julie Burchill has ever disputed any of the points you’ve made.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        I’ll think you’ll find, FF, that at the very least she has disputed 3. by her writing about MTF transexuals. If you wish to explain how that’s not the case, go ahead. I’ll happily post more to support my viewpoint.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Tell Ms Burchill on Facebook to come on her and defend herself. You’re not here to do her dirty work.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          I’m here of my own accord. I find this issue interesting and infuriating in equal measures.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Then don’t pretend to speak for her.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I’m not speaking for her or pretending to speak for her, I’m here in my capacity as my own person. Do you see?

          • Adrian Morgan

            I don’t think the person wants to see – so much easier to go with the flow, get out the torches and pitchforks and try to bring a writer down.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            See my answer to FF. I am not going with any flow here, I strongly disagree with what she’s been saying and am entitled to voice my concerns about her language.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Especially if it’s a female writer as it seems to be female writers who come in for the worst sort of aggression from these particular trans women

          • Natasha

            No Adrian, we are bringing an irrational transphobe to account…

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            No, I don’t see FF. When you as a Facebook friend of Julie Burchill say something like you did, it sounds to me like you’re speaking for her. If you’re not, then don’t pretend to explain to me what she means.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I’m not pretending to explain what she means, I’ve not claimed to speak for her. She’s perfectly capable of speaking for herself. You have dreamt this all up in your head, please stop with this.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You started this conversation by saying what you thought Ms Burchill meant. I responded. You started this line of conversation FF. Don’t imply that I dreamed it up, that is both insulting and patronising.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            “You started this conversation by saying what you thought Ms Burchill meant”

            Nope, didn’t do that

          • Natasha

            FF are you serious? You wrote : “I don’t think Julie Burchill has ever disputed any of the points you’ve made.” And now deny it above… Are you being deliberately contrary?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You were saying what you thought her views were or weren’t.

            “I don’t think Julie Burchill has ever disputed any of the points you’ve made.”

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            That’s not “speaking for her”

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Sounded like it to me FF. Have to put it down as ‘another misunderstanding’ then….

      • Natasha

        Get a grip FF… stating that Lees’ is a “gay boy” axiomatically denies that “1. Gender dysphoria exists”…

      • Natasha

        Get a grip FF… stating that Lees’ is a “gay boy” axiomatically denies that “1. Gender dysphoria exists”…

      • Rumbelow

        Give it up Julie, you were sprung ages ago.

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          He isn’t Julie!!

  • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

    OK, this is ridiculous. Disqus is not working, I can only reply to a tiny number of posts. Out of here.

    This is appallingly bad, Disqus – FIX IT!

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      OK, FF, as a supporter of Paris Lees, I’m prepared to say that I don’t think her article about men calling out to women in the street was very helpful. I think women experience a lot of unwanted harassment and this might, to some, seem to justify it. Are you, as a supporter of Julie Burchill, prepared to speak out against her transphobic comments? Up to you.

  • Sandra Chung

    So much hate and ignorance about what being transgendered is. Isn’t she supposed college educated? Her level of said ignorance is appalling. How about treating all human beings, whether hetero/homosexual, trans gendered as human beings instead of being such a rancorous git?

    • http://aebrain.blogspot.com Zoe_Brain

      No, she’s inordinately proud of NOT being college educated, unlike those privileged toffs and swots. Ignorance is strength!

    • Piquette

      What makes you think that Julie Burchill is ignorant? I’ve no doubt she keeps up with her reading on many subjects related to the status of women and gender issues, including what trans-activists are saying and doing. And, when a trans person writes about how fun, great and “empowering” sexist street harassment is, she rightly criticizes such stupidity as backward and anti-woman.

      A critique is not ignorance.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        I wonder how much talking she does with transgendered people, I’m not talking about activists. Her comments, I feel display her ignorance of their views.

        • Piquette

          Again, I’m sure she’s not ignorant of their views, whether those views appear in print or are conveyed in person. The fundamental point is, Burchill (and many other feminists) do not accept the notion that a man can legitimately appropriate the female sex for his own identity and then speak on behalf of women. Keeping company with even the most congenial male-to-female trans person cannot change that.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Exactly that, and I dislike the way women seeking to delineate boundaries for themselves has been labelled “transphobic”. I despise the way Julie Bindel has been vilified and bullied by certain trans activists. I take exception to being told I am “cis”, and I dislike how, on occasion, it’s used as a term of abuse. I think the politics behind some trans activism is seriously retrogressive and is actually shoring up patriarchy rather than seeking to dismantle it.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            See my answer to Piquette.

          • Natasha

            FF, Burchill, Bindel & Moore have gone further than “women seeking to delineate boundaries for themselves” they deny the right of trans women to exist. For example patronizingly labeling Lees’ a boy. Or that we are always the gender assigned at birth. Did you ever hear of a newborn coming out as transgender? No. It takes some time to acquire a sufficient degree of socialization to have a concept of our own and others gender, to then question it, and to then change it if the doctors got it wrong on your birth certificate. Burchill, Bindel & Moore deny this, which is called being “transphobic”.

          • Natasha

            @Flaming Fairy, Burchill, Bindel & Moore have gone further than “women seeking
            to delineate boundaries for themselves” they deny the right of transgender
            women to exist. For example labelling Lees’ a boy. Or that
            we are always the gender assigned at birth. Did you ever hear of a
            newborn coming out as transgender? No. It takes some time to acquire a
            sufficient degree of socialization to have a concept of our own and
            others gender, to then question it, and to then change it if the doctors
            got it wrong on the birth certificate. Burchill, Bindel & Moore
            deny this, which is called being “transphobic”.

            To (ab)use their power as public figures & journalists bent for years attacking the very right of transpeople to self determine their lives, name calling etc… may well be illegal under the The Protection from Harassment Act 1997

            “This Act was primarily created to provide protection against stalkers, but it has been used in other ways. Under this act the definition of harassment is behaviour which causes alarm or distress.

            The Act gave Employers vicarious liability for harassment by their employees.
            The Criminal offences of Harassment include:
            s.1 the offence of harassment. i.e. conducting a course of conduct—
            (a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
            s. 4 Putting people in fear of violence. A person whose course of conduct causes another to fear, on at least two occasions, that violence will be used.”
            http://www.pfc.org.uk/olderleglislation.html

            Claims against them under the Act, could include: -

            “a bunch of dicks in chick’s clothing” – Julie Burchill
            “their relationship with their phantom limb” – Julie Burchill
            “trannies” – Julie Burchill
            “shemales” – Julie Burchill
            “shims” – Julie Burchill
            “a bunch of bed-wetters in bad wigs” – Julie Burchill
            “their major beautification operations” – Julie Burchill
            “how very stupid men look, in fact, when they dress up as women” – Julie Burchill
            “I feel even less patience with transsexuals” – Julie Burchill
            “Male to female transsexuals are Michael Jackson to the transvestites Ali G”Julie Burchill –
            “they presume that its authenticity can be theirs through a few cosmetic adjustments” – Julie Burchill
            “Transsexualism is, basically, just another, more drastic twist on the male menopause” – Julie Burchill

            Notice the Act makes their employers liable too. If the claimant could show direct damage… possible but by no means easy…

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I think this should be pursued, Natasha.

          • Natasha

            Its a massive undertaking… do you think a newspaper is going to let a case like this go to court without a dirty fight? They will pull ALL the stops out, anything will be used to destroy anybody that dares to challenge their freedom to attack who ever they want, just to sell a copy or three extra: the implications go way beyond turds like Burchill & co…

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            True, Natasha.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            So she is not just ignorant of their views but disregarding the law. This allows their gender identity to be respected. Let her campaign to change it then not sit here accepting the status quo while being abusive.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            She is ignorant of their experience and what it means for their gender identity.

          • Natasha

            Piquette, Nope. The “fundamental point is” that a “male-to-female trans person” would NOT argue they are a “man [who] can legitimately appropriate the female sex”. Perhaps you have confused ‘drag queen’ with ‘transgender’ ? Transgender people overwhelmingly argue they are “trapped in the wrong body”. Trans folk say they been the same gender inside since birth. Thus transition is simply bringing that reality to light; adopting a gender role they feel is correct for them; a profound act of courage with shits like Burcill, Bindel and Moore egging on ignorant public heckling to deny their very existence, denial of employment, family rejection etc…

          • Natasha

            Piquette, Nope. The “fundamental point is” that a “male-to-female trans person” would NOT argue they are a “man [who] can legitimately appropriate the female sex”. Perhaps you have confused ‘drag queen’ with ‘transgender’ ? Transgender people overwhelmingly argue they are
            “trapped in the wrong body”. Trans folk say they been the same gender inside their heads since birth. Thus transition is simply a hugely profound act of courage of sharing our deepest reality with a horribly cruel world; of adopting a gender role a person feels is correct for them, which the likes Burcill, Bindel and Moore deny is possible, by egging on
            ignorant public attitudes, insults & discrimination, causing stress, alarm or distress. They deny transgender people’s very existence, causing denial of
            employment, family rejection etc…

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Precisely, Natasha, they are denying transgender people something essential and wonder why a small minority express anger with them. I’m inordinately angry with them and I’m not even transgender.

          • Natasha

            @Piquette, given the real world ambiguity of intersex people …
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
            … and “[t]he high frequency of people with sex chromosome aberrations [which] is partly
            due to the fact that they are rarely lethal conditions.”
            http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm
            … the only remaining rational measure of gender identity is self disclosure. This renders you, Bindel, Burchill, Moore and the rad fems BIGOTS for repeatedly denying the legitimacy of gender self identity. So your statement “… the notion that a man can legitimately appropriate the female sex for his own identity and then speak on behalf of women…” is, of course absurd BECAUSE transgender women are NOT men, they are women… FFS get a grip, please, this is basic stuff, really.

      • http://transcode.co TCZoey

        Doing it by legitimizing the identities of all trans women is pure bigotry however. I’m a trans woman and I don’t like walking past 2 guys and hearing them say “nothing special ah?” – “Good tits though”, I felt incredibly objectified and humiliated when that happened to me just last week.

        But that comes nowhere near to how bad I feel when people call me male or use terms as crude as Julie Burchill did. Anyone defending what she said is being ignorant at the very least.

        Her ‘critique’ is filled with blatant stereotypes and transmisogyny. My breasts are natural, fully grown by my body after it finally got the hormones I needed and I don’t wear lipstick unless I’m going somewhere special in general. The penis is also not ‘cut off’ like so many transphobes like to yell whenever they”re dismissing our identities, it’s not how the surgery works. The most common technique is penile inversion and it uses the skin from the penis so that most nerves are preserved.

    • TCZoey

      Just a small correction: the correct term is ‘transgender’, not ‘transgendered’.

  • Truth

    Looking at her …. some would say, ‘If the cap fits, love …’

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Not helpful really, however tempting such comments are they tend to give her supporters a chance to attack her detractors….

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    “Gender Identity Watch shared a link.
    2 hours ago
    Most trans women keep their male anatomy. That’s the point of “Transgenderism””

    I hope Julie Burchill is delighted, This article has been posted on the Gender Identity Watch Facebook page with the above heading. It’s fair to say that people on that page share her views about MTF transgender people still being men. As the link has been included, no doubt some of them have joined us here.

  • Friesjones

    So she’s angry about all those delicious cocks being “cut off” as she puts it? Not sure why she’s so into the topic that her name is becoming synonymous with transphobic public comment.

  • Adrian Morgan

    I know Julie personally, and I think this article is just trying to stir up hate against her. You will not change her views by attacking her. But so what if she does not accept male to female trans people as being “real” women? They are not “real” women. They don’t have XX chromosomes – they are surgical creations and would not exist as “real” women (i.e. having vaginas) without surgery. And much as I sympathise with people who feel they are “women trapped in men’s bodies” – most women grow up with the expectations that are heaped onto women, and go through biological transformations at puberty that are very different to males. But the trans activists who attacked Suzanne Moore and then Julie who defended her were displaying exactly the sort of male aggression that one normally finds in the worst of heterosexist men. These trans women had surgery to appear women but retained the male mindset and male sense of entitlement that made them feel they had a right to bully so-called “cisgendered” women who had the temerity to be feminists. And as I recall, there were very few transsexuals who did much to help the gay liberation movement in the early post-1967 days. Transsexuals then were more interested in upholding traditional male/female versions of the status quo. In the eighties and nineties I witnessed male to female transsexual bigotry against gay men. The “LGBT” movement has adopted their cause, but I do not see much common ground between people who accept their biology and choose to love their own gender sexually, and those who change their biological appearance and then expect to be treated as if theu were born women, and using macho bullying to make others accept them as “real women”. I oppose discrimination against transsexuals, but I also oppose the discriminations that some trans activists are now imposing upon those who do not accept that their chosen and surgically-created personae are exactly the “same” as those who grew up from infancy as women.

  • Adrian Morgan

    I know Julie personally, and I think this article is just trying to stir up hate against her. You will not change her views by attacking her. But so what if she does not accept male to female trans people as being “real” women? They are not “real” women. They don’t have XX chromosomes – they are surgical creations and would not exist as “real” women (i.e. having vaginas) without surgery. And much as I sympathise with people who feel they are “women trapped in men’s bodies” – most women grow up with the expectations that are heaped onto women, and go through biological transformations at puberty that are very different to males. But the trans activists who attacked Suzanne Moore and then Julie who defended her were displaying exactly the sort of male aggression that one normally finds in the worst of heterosexist men. These trans women had surgery to appear women but retained the male mindset and male sense of entitlement that made them feel they had a right to bully so-called “cisgendered” women who had the temerity to be feminists. And as I recall, there were very few transsexuals who did much to help the gay liberation movement in the early post-1967 days. Transsexuals then were more interested in upholding traditional male/female versions of the status quo. In the eighties and nineties I witnessed male to female transsexual bigotry against gay men. The “LGBT” movement has adopted their cause, but I do not see much common ground between people who accept their biology and choose to love their own gender sexually, and those who change their biological appearance and then expect to be treated as if theu were born women, and using macho bullying to make others accept them as “real women”. I oppose discrimination against transsexuals, but I also oppose the discriminations that some trans activists are now imposing upon those who do not accept that their chosen and surgically-created personae are exactly the “same” as those who grew up from infancy as women.

    • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

      It’s not as if these particular trans activists speak for all trans people, either. I had a very interesting discussion with a trans woman and she pointed out that there are gradations of gender dysphoria, that not every trans person agrees with the need for gender reassignment surgery or hormone treatment, that not all trans people accept the diagnosis of gender dysphoria in the first place and also that some of them share the beliefs of Julie Bindel (i.e. that GD is due to a patriarchal gender binary) which she articulated in an article written ten years ago and which has seen her become a regular target of abuse.

      It seems to me that some trans activists do not want a debate, they want to deploy the same kind of discussion-killing tactics of Islamists: accusations of “-phobia” that must never be challenged or questioned, and the issuing of fatwas against certain writers (usually female, interestingly enough).

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        If Julie Burchill actually wants a debate, she should start a debate. A debate does not consist of sitting on the sidelines merely throwing insults.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          Tell that to the trans activists who have bullied Suzanne Moore and Julie Bindel.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            That does not justify insults in return. It will never end that way. If a calm debate is needed (which I don’t actually need anyway) then insults is not the way to promote it. You, quite rightly, oppose people on here who use misogynistic comments about Julie Burchill because they’re angry then you defend Julie Burchill for being insulting when she’s angry. How will this ever end?

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Where have I defended JB. As I keep on saying, but you seem not to want to hear it, I don’t need to defend JB, she is perfectly capable of defending herself

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You defended her on the comments sections on The Spectator, FF, and you have not here spoken out against what appears another example of transphobia. Let Julie Burchill come on here to defend herself, you can tell her the door is open.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Yes, she’s a Facebook friend of mine and I was happy to defend her against people calling her misogynist names. However, she won’t be hanging out here as I’m sure she’s got better things to do with her time – like organising a major event to raise funds for the victims of domestic violence, for instance. You know, something that affects women in the real world, not just online.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            What happens when she says things in print and online affect what happens in the real world. So don’t patronise me. If she doesn’t want to come on here, that’s up to her but I believe I am doing something valuable in speaking out against her.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Well good for you! *pats head*

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            That *pats head* is obviously patronising FF. If you don’t think you’re doing something important being here then please feel free to go off and do something else. Good for you patronising the ‘little woman’. Cheers for that.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I’m not doing anything important here, I’m simply beguiling the hours until bedtime, twiddling my rhetorical thumbs and indulging myself in some brain-play to keep the old noggin active.

            I was being deliberately patronising, and for that I apologise, it was bad form.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I could call it ‘misogynistic’ of you. Seriously, after all you’ve been trying to do here supporting JB from misogynism. You carry on twiddling, FF, I’ll carry on engaging in what is a real discussion about what constitutes transphobia. If you want to carry on patting my head, sighing or whatever, let me know and I’ll give you a wide berth. I’m not putting up with that on here.

          • Guest

            By all means give me a wide berth, I’m getting bored now

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I can’t tell who you are to give you a wide berth ‘Guest’.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And, whoever you are, I’m staying because the subject of transphobia is not, and never will be, boring. It affects real people in the real world.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I’ve deleted the comment, on mature reflection; you were right to call me out on its hypocrisy and I apologise for it. Like most men do, I get caught up in having the last word.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Thank you, FF.

          • TCZoey

            Perpetuating stereotypes of trans women and dismissing our identities as a public figure affects the life of women in the real world, trans women, the group that your kind (trans exclusionary feminists) likes to trample on so they can pretend they’re the only victims in society.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I have a “kind” now do I?

            How lovely!

            Love your Manichean world view, by the way. So – er – simplistic.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Yes, you know……what TCZoey said……

          • Natasha

            @ Flaming Fairy Condescending now as well as protecting / supporting / echoing / (whatever you want to call it), transphobic bigots like Burchill…? I await your responses to my other comments about intersex and genetic ambiguity rendering gender self determination the only rational and respectful way to determine gender… [sarcasm alert] or perhaps its beneath your “real world” concerns to respond …?

            [ BTW raising money for charity is highly problematic. It embeds the idea that private creation of money at interest is the only way to run the "real world", when Full Reserve Banking Reform (even if done in just the UK alone) would enable a Citizens Dividend (say £10 or £20K / year - banks take circa ) which in turn would at a stroke end all poverty, the need for a welfare / pension system, unemployment and inflation would be (near) zero, it would enable Land Value Tax reform, enabling everyone to have an affordable life long secure home, and last but not least, because the entore face of society would be transformed, Burchill's "real world" domestic violence would be significantly reduced at source: DV thrives in the competitive environment that interst on the money supply creates. Clearly reduction in DV figures would take a long time to be seen after these reforms were implemented because DV is embedded in social contexts, that take decades to improve, nonetheless they are sides of the same coin intimately linked.

            This is my "real world" campaigning efforts, which last September yielded the Green's adopting Full Reserve Banking Reform. I think concentrating on reforming root causes is far more important than blindly nursing (yes blindly, since Burchill has NEVER written on these root causes) symptoms like fund raising for DV charities, which whilst entirely honourable in itself, also entirely misses the root causes... ]

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Flaming Fairy has suddenly become ‘Guest’! Very puzzling….

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        And of course there are different degrees of gender dysphoria and different treatments are available if they are believed to help. That doesn’t mean that, if someone identifies as female, they shouldn’t be recognised as such. many, many transgender people strongly disagree with what Julie Bindel said. If you want to go down that route, I’ll be posting things on here for hours. Medical practice and the law support my beliefs. IF there is to be any debate about changing either of these factors then it will not be started effectively by offensive and derogatory name-calling, FF.

        • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

          “That doesn’t mean that, if someone identifies as female, they shouldn’t be recognised as such”

          “Female” is a biological term, not a state of mind. “Woman” is a social construct. Not all women born female agree that trans women should be included in women-only events, for a variety of reasons and then end up being labelled “transphobes” and “TERFs”, which is just a way of shutting people up.

          Personally, I don’t see why some trans activists want to reject “trans woman” as an identity and want to claim they are exactly the same as women born female. They aren’t – their stories, their oppression , all will be very different.

          I suspect we will swiftly move on from this to a recognition of how what appears to be the prevailing current “trans political wisdom” actually reinforces the gender binary and ultimately oppresses trans, genderqueer, intersex and other non-gender-conforming people.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            well ‘trans woman’ beats ‘men’ hands down, tell that to Julie Burchill the next time she wants to call Paris Lees a boy….

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I’ve used “trans women” throughout here. I respect the choice of identity, I just don’t agree that they are exactly the same as women who were born female.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Not the same but equal, FF. Julie Burchill talks about Paris Lees being a young gay boy. It’s her I have the argument with – and I’m only sorry you can’t bear to be critical of her in this one instance.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I won’t be critical of any woman criticising Paris Lees for her ridiculous, horrible, offensive article

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Right FF, so you will not be critical of any transphobic comment by Julie Burchill then. Up to you. I’ve said I disagree with what Paris Lees wrote so I’m prepared to speak against her on this occasion. It is, as I said, if you choose not to be critical of transphobic comments. I have invited you to respond and you refuse.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            I won’t be critical of ANY woman criticising Paris Lees for her horrendous article. They have the experience I don’t – being sexually harassed since girlhood. If that criticism tips over into vitriol, well, that’s understandable but something I try and avoid. What JB does is up to her. I understand she’s apologised to Paris Lees so what business is it of anyone else’s?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            It’s our business because of this article that I’m commenting on!!

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            Yes, this article dredging up an argument that’s been done and dusted by the main protagonists long since.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            It’s a current article and we as readers are entitled to comment. There are wider repercussions that what was said between two people.

          • April k

            Haha! You are calling the oppressors oppressed! Trans is a path by which we become, woman is the identity I have. I am trans and I am a woman.

            Is it fair and just to follow opinions of some people? Or is it fair and just to determine is harm is being done using a logical system with observation, hypothesis, and testing? The terms for different kinds of hate as expressed in society are born of a fairly scientific approach.

            The fact that some people don’t like to be murdered is not proof that murder is bad.

            The fact that some TERFs don’t want to include trans women does not mean that trans women should not be included.

            You fail to prove your assertions.

            There is no woman anywhere who is the same as any other woman, because trans women have different lived experiences from cisgender women does not justify segregation in word or act.

    • http://transcode.co TCZoey

      I’m sorry but not calling me a real woman because of my chromosomes is a bad argument based on a high school level understanding of biology.

      I grew up as girl that was constantly pushed to be something I was not, by my father (who denied me to give me proper medical care that I needed being a transsexual woman) and by society in general, I tried to go along but I wished to die every day of my life since I was 11, until I finally started transitioning 2 years ago.

      The only time when the fact I was born with male parts matters is for medical reasons (like for hormone therapy, SRS (that’s the only surgery I’ll need since some form of MAIS has made male puberty not damage my body as bad as it does for most trans women) and when it comes to how I am to have children, which I do want).

      You think you cis women are oppressed? Try living as a trans woman in this society for a day, with men telling you you’re deceiving them even if you’re up front about your medical status, feminists like you seeing us as an intrusion because they don’t understand (and don’t care to learn) the medical side of it and health care providers discriminating against us on a regular basis. All the while being told by people your identity isn’t real and/or you’re mentally ill for trying to make your body acceptable to live in.

      The way you talk about trans women in general is very disrespectful and yes, not acknowledging us as women IS transphobia. It’s funny that most transphobic feminists go towards calling us men (implicitly or explicitly) because of the aggressiveness of trans activists. The most vile and aggressive people I’ve ever encountered are still people like Julie Burchill and Cathy Brennan who shit all over one of the most abused groups in society, does that mean I should compare you to men too?

    • Natasha

      @Adrian Morgan, reducing a person to their genes or genital morphology is ignorant. Some “real women” and some “real men” have neither XY nor XX nor what would be recongised as either a penis or a vagina. Ask any neonatal professional. This means the person themselves is the best guide to what gender they are. But Burchill’s, Bindel, Moore’s et al fail to show they have grasped this. To then build upon it by denying transgender peoples right to determine their own gender, by first appealing to these non existent mythical biological imperatives, and to then demand the transgender person goes along with this myth, is called “transphobia”.

      “…there were very few transsexuals who did much to help the gay liberation movement in the early post-1967 days…” Not true. Transgender activist(s) started the Stonewall riot. It started the modern gay rights movement. Stonewall has been stolen from transgender people by the organisation of the same name, which has ever since actively excluded transgender people.

      “… transsexuals then were more interested in upholding traditional male/female versions of the status quo…” Everyone was back then.

      “… I oppose discrimination against transsexuals…” Good.

      “… but I also oppose the discriminations that some trans activists are now imposing upon those who do not accept that their chosen [gender]…” Wrong. Transgender people overwhelming report, since they can first remember, that they have always identified with the gender they eventually transition to, with some less sure vacillating, that’s why the rainbow flag was adopted as symbol of this. To use ambiguous genes / genital morphology / upbringing against transgender people, to deny our right of self determination, is bigotry.

      Transgender women generally don’t claim they “…are exactly the “same” as those who grew up from infancy as women…” We are not stupid. We simply say that ambiguous biological indicators such as genes & genital morphology are trumped by the same internal knowledge that makes you so sure you are a man Adrian, or that Burchill, Moore & Bindel are women. We don’t demand a gene test of a look between their legs to confirm this. Yet they demand this – as you do here Adrian – of transgender people, and expect us to accept this without comment, anger or frustration?

      Thought experiment: if your head were removed and put on a life support machine, would you still be a man Adrian?

    • Piquette

      ‘And much as I sympathise with people who feel they are “women trapped in men’s bodies” – most women grow up with the expectations that are heaped onto women, and go through biological transformations at puberty that are very different to males. But the trans activists who attacked Suzanne Moore and then Julie who defended her were displaying exactly the sort of male aggression that one normally finds in the worst of heterosexist men.’

      Excellent comment, Adrian. Exactly. And in some ways, even worse than heterosexist men, because their macho, sexist attitudes appear to be coming from self-professed women.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Self identified women, recognised by the law women, disputed by Julie Burchill women. There, we have the problem.

      • Guest

        Nicely put!

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      I’m a gay woman and am happy to embrace the T in LGBT. It’s all about fighting for equality and the right to be respected for who we are. And I don’t think you have to see people as ‘the same’ to treat them as ‘equals’. Respect them and not abuse them. Accept them as who they are. That’s what I ask for my sexuality and that’s what I offer to transgender people.

      • Adrian Morgan

        I recognise other people’s equality as in terms of their innate human worth, rights, etc. But I will not engage in ridiculous logical gymnastics to assert that the final imago of womanhood as displayed by a transgendered male to female is biologically the same as someone who emerged into womanhood by a series of natural biological processes. To assert otherwise is to ignore the role of conditioning in the emotional development of a person – even if one ultimately rejects or rebels against such conditioning.

        Males who become women through surgery may have been desperately unhappy boys as they grew up, but they still had a particular set of expectations that were foisted onto them by virtue of them being biologically male.

        I am always alarmed by the aggression and anger that I see being expressed by activist/militants amongst the trans sorority. Boys grow up being conditioned to be aggressive, pushy, and – to a greater or lesser degree – with a feeling of entitlement, of being “special” because of one’s gender.

        And that history must have a bearing upon how the psychological mindset/makeup exists behind – and influences – the final imago that is presented to the world, be it that of a trans woman or a male, or a gay or straight person. As human beings, we can not run away from the backgrounds that make us what we are – even if we feel inside that we should be something other than what others have defined for us, whether or not we have embraced or rejected those expectations and experiences.

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          I will say one thing in reply: the law gives MTF transgender people the right to identify as female. That is what they deserve.

        • Natasha

          So what? None of what you say negates the rights of anyone to live in the gender role they chose, whatever the law requires for it to be legally reconised. If you or Bindel or Burchill or Moore have a problem with that, say what you like, but beware trans people are protected by the same laws as everybody is, like the PHA 1997, which if anybody cared to, could fairly easily be used to make claims against Bindel or Burchill or Moore etc…

          “The Protection from Harassment Act 1997
          This Act was primarily created to provide protection against stalkers, but it has been used in other ways. Under this act the definition of harassment is behaviour which causes alarm or distress.
          The Act gave Employers vicarious liability for harassment by their employees.
          The Criminal offences of Harassment include:
          s.1 the offence of harassment. i.e. conducting a course of conduct—
          (a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
          s. 4 Putting people in fear of violence. A person whose course of conduct causes another to fear, on at least two occasions, that violence will be used.”
          http://www.pfc.org.uk/olderleglislation.html

          To be honest, I’m surprised nobody has yet, even if it failed (which it probably would given that fact that judicial corruption is endemic) it would draw massive media attention :-)

          @ Adrian Morgan wrote “But I will not engage in ridiculous logical gymnastics to assert that
          the final imago of womanhood as displayed by a transgendered male to
          female is biologically the same as [a cis gender woman]…”

          This is a staw-man argument: transgender people do not make the claim we are “biologically the same” you entirely miss the point. Everyone is different, however, the law recognises only two categories: male or female. Transgender people simply assert the right, when appropriate to peacefully correct the category they were (incorrectly) assigned at birth.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Well said!

        • April k

          Nobody has ever said that a trans woman is exactly equal to a woman identified female. You do not understand the language or the concepts behind it.

          Are you actually saying that your ‘rearin’ is the only factor in your identity?

          If a girl is encouraged to be aggressive is she a man in your logic?

          Your argument = Boys become men because people raise them to have traditionally masculine traits.

          Aren’t most of the gay people raised to be straight? “When are you going to get a girlfriend Bobby?” Does that socialization make them straight?

    • Natasha

      @Adrian Morgan, reducing a person to their genes or genital
      morphology misses the point with a straw-man argument about what a “real woman” is. Some “real women” and some “real men” have neither XY nor XX nor what would be recognised as either a penis or a
      vagina. Ask any neonatal professional. This means the person themselves
      is the best guide to what gender they are. But Burchill’s, Bindel,
      Moore’s et al fail to show they have grasped this. To then build upon it
      by denying transgender peoples right to determine their own gender, by
      first appealing to these non existent mythical biological imperatives,
      and to then demand the transgender person goes along with this myth, is
      called “transphobia”.

      “…there were very few transsexuals who did much to help the gay
      liberation movement in the early post-1967 days…” Not true.
      Transgender activist(s) started the Stonewall riot. It started the
      modern gay rights movement. Stonewall has been stolen from transgender
      people by the organisation of the same name, which has ever since
      actively excluded transgender people.

      “… transsexuals then were more interested in upholding traditional
      male/female versions of the status quo…” Everyone was back then.

      “… I oppose discrimination against transsexuals…” Good.

      “… but I also oppose the discriminations that some trans activists
      are now imposing upon those who do not accept that their chosen
      [gender]…” Wrong. Transgender people overwhelming report, since they
      can first remember, that they have always identified with the gender
      they eventually transition to, with some less sure vacillating, that’s
      why the rainbow flag was adopted as symbol of this. To use ambiguous
      genes / genital morphology / upbringing against transgender people, to
      deny our right of self determination, is bigotry.

      Transgender women generally don’t claim they “…are exactly the
      “same” as those who grew up from infancy as women…” We are not stupid.
      We simply say that ambiguous biological indicators such as genes &
      genital morphology are trumped by the same internal knowledge that makes you so sure you are a man Adrian, or that Burchill, Moore & Bindel
      are women. In contrast to them, trans people don’t demand a gene test or a peep between their legs to confirm a penis or a vagina. Yet they demand this – as you do here Adrian – of transgender people, and expect us to accept this without comment, anger or frustration?

      Thought experiment: if your head were removed and put on a life support machine, would you still be a man Adrian?

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Exactly! I believe in self-determination and get so frustrated that others can’t see that this is an overriding factor.

        • April k

          Perhaps they too feel trapped in their roles in life! That made me very crabby until I changed my mind about it :D

    • Natasha

      No. Its NOT trying to “stir up hate against her”, she’s done a perfectly good job of doing that on her own to herself by pedalling a foolish irrational position not supported by data or logic, and not supported by anyone who feels any sense of simple decent human respect should be extended to a particular minority that already suffers just about the worst discrimination of any minority. Just check out the mental health and suicide and murder data. The article is trying to correct her irrational and terribly damaging power game at trans people’s expense, and I will NEVER stand for it. On the face of it, she comes across as someone who is riddle with internal fear, that somehow my existence negates hers: get life Burchill, and get off our backs, b*tch ….

    • April k

      Woman and man are social constructs relating to interactions, identity, and roles. Male and Female are medical terms used to describe physical sex, which is actually more complicated than XX and XY.

      You invalid your position when you fail to understand science, sociology, psychology, and the definitions of the relevant terminology.

      To explain what I mean: I was born and assigned male at birth. Having never made anybody pregnant, nor becoming pregnant myself, but having typical looking male genitalia, and having relatively normal male hormone levels at specific dates of testing, and having never needed a chromosome test, we can assume, reasonably that I had mostly male parts. But not prove without a doubt.

      I began female hormone treatment, when I realized that is what was missing. So now, even though I still remain partly male. I am also verifiably partly female.

      I lived my life as a man, because I did not know I had the strength and capability to do anything different. I now live as a woman, I identify as a woman, I am treated as a woman in my interactions (for better and worse), I basically have the role of a woman in my society.

      Please stop making errors with basic terms, it just doesn’t do any good.

  • Rebecca Baty

    I suppose I should comment. Regardless of the precise definition of a “Woman” a person who has arrived at the point of being socially defined as such faces all the discrimination, unwanted attention and prejudice that a so called cis woman faces. Does M. Birchill think that a trans woman in Saudi would be accepted as male? or want to be? Her statements are as bad as the old one “Lesbians are just ugly woman who cannot attract a male partner” and just as prejudicial. She sets back woman’s rights back to the 1890′s with her commentary.

  • http://www.bloketoys.co.uk/ BlokeToys.co.uk

    Another desperate nobody who hasn’t quite worked out that their life is pretty sh*t because everyone who has the misfortune of encountering them sees that they’re a vile Human.

    It’s no coincidence that she has worked at so many publications. Decent people and professional writers don’t usually jump from one post to another with such frequency. It suggests that these publications hire her for the shock factor and soon tire of her when they see how nasty a person she actually is. I guess they presume she’s able to be reigned-in or that it’s mostly an act, then soon discover that this really is genuine and she really is a talentless hack who relies on venom to get attention.

    It must be a depressing existence, being known for being a vile person rather than being recognized as a writer or journalist.

    I don’t know much about her, but I hope she didn’t actually study to do her “job”. If she did, her parents must have wasted a lot of cash to create this talentless and pretty despicable character.

  • Guest

    What she doesn’t understand is that we just wish to live a normal life like everyone else. We are not a threat to anyone and just wish to have respect for who we are. Her hurtful and hateful comments are typical of narrow-mindedness, bigotted and ignorant people. For goodness sake, GROW UP Burchill!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • Rachael Warlond

      This is me who wrote this. I tried to delete it, as I re-posted it with slightly different wording. Not sure what went wrong as I was logged in and it allowed me to delete it, but it has reappeared and now calls me “Guest”. Anyway ……

  • Rachael Warlond

    Don’t you just love “people” who judge people. Opinionated people like this are just narrow-minded, bigoted and ignorant of what we have to go through to simply be ourselves – something she obviously takes for granted.
    And yes, I’m transsexual and proud of who I am. We are not a threat to anyone and simply wish to live our lives with the same respect and rights as everyone else.
    Julie Burchill, all you are doing is degrading your own femininity with your feminist activist’s views and hatred – I really pity you.

    • Piquette

      “Julie Burchill, all you are doing is degrading your own femininity with your feminist activist’s views and hatred – I really pity you.”

      What a revealing comment: feminists aren’t sufficiently “feminine.” MTFs have to show women how it’s done.

      • Rachael Warlond

        Hi Piquette. Maybe you just hit the nail on the head so to speak. A transsexual female, a real transsexual female such as myself, will never take her femininity for granted. After all, I haven’t come all this way with transitioning to become “insufficiently feminine” as it’s what I have always dreamed of since I was about 6 or 7 years old. So your point is extremely valid – maybe I need to teach her how to be a real woman and embrace that which she takes for granted, yet denies via her activist’s pursuits.

        • Piquette

          Thank goodness, Rachael, you don’t call yourself a feminist! It’s a nice touch of honesty. Unlike Paris Lees, who appropriates the feminist designation, while celebrating and promoting the sexual harassment and intimidation of girls and women. Girls and women who want simply to walk on the street as free, dignified and secure human beings. But, this women-are-human thing is a difficult concept for many men (including men who identify as women AND as feminists) to understand. In fact, it’s a concept that seems to hurt their feelings and get them all kinds of upset.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You just couldn’t help saying ‘men who identify as women’, you couldn’t even say trans women. No wonder what is said causes people ‘all kinds of upsets’….

          • TCZoey

            I thought this was an LGBT site, don’t they have some kind of moderation? Their content approval system even ate 2 of my comments hours ago that still haven’t been approved.

            Outright dismissal of trans identities should not be allowed on LGBT sites imo. Yet there are several people in this thread who have no problem doing it over and over.

          • https://twitter.com/TittyOShea Flaming Fairy

            They don’t have human moderators, it seems, they have bots who filter out “naughty words” like b*t*h

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            shame Ms Burchill’s articles don’t have a transphobia filter.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I don’t know what to say, TCZoey, I find this whole dismissal of trans identities thing totally and utterly bewildering, frustrating, and way, way beyond annoying. I see your point about LGBT sites and perhaps that is something Pink News should respond to?

          • Natasha

            Let the transphobes have their ‘air time’ and thereby expose themselves for the irrational bigots they are…

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            But I can’t help challenging them!!!!!

          • Rachael Warlond

            That’s just the thing. I am certainly not a man who identifies as a woman. True transsexuals are literally women born in a man’s body. Yes, I know it’s a cliche, but the truth of the matter is that it has now been proven that a female being born with a male appearance, with or without male genitalia or ambiguous genitalia is in fact a birth defect. I guess the best way to explain it is that right from the start the fetus is female, however if it’s going to be a male baby, certain “switches” are turned on. In the case of a transsexual (M2F) baby, not all the “switches” turn on, leaving the developing baby as a mixture of both male and female – this especially applies to the development of the brain, but of course, can effect many other parts of the body. For me personally, I was born with basically a feminine brain with certain physical features of a female, ie, certain facial features, very fine bone structure, very long fingers and legs, smallish rib cage and many other subtle indications that I was more than what I had between my legs.
            I also knew by the age of 6 or 7 years old that there was definitely something different about me compared to other boys. I would even go to bed and wished that I would wake up as a girl. Of course, this never happened, but as I grew older, a feminine side certainly developed further and I became more and more emotionally torn. My mind said female and so long story short, I was eventually diagnosed with extreme gender dysphoria. The specialist therefore recommended that I transition to be female for my own well-being. Of course I knew all this, but to proceed I needed specialist permission to do so. Of course, my needs far outweighed anything and so I began transitioning 3 years ago and truly have never looked back. Naturally, it would have been nice to be born genetically female right from the start, but at least now I get to live out my life as the gender I always wished and felt I was.

          • Natasha

            Thanks for your honest calm explanation Rachael…

          • Rachael Warlond

            Thank you Natasha. All I am trying to achieve is to explain that even though JB is totally wrong with her view of transsexual females, that there is a much more human side to how we really feel about ourselves. I truly hope that everyone reads my previous comment above and at least tries to understand how we really feel feel about ourselves. I know that there are “transsexual feminists” out there, but unfortunately, in reality, all they are doing is destroying our community without even realizing it.

          • April k

            I appreciate the term transsexual without modifying it with “true”. Using that you can can push out people who identify as trans because you don’t like something about them. The term transsexual is already true, because it is what IT IS!!! A thing is a thing, and not any other thing… Other than that, thanks Rachel :)

          • Rachael Warlond

            The reason I used “true” transsexual is one who has been through the medical system and been diagnosed with gender dysphoria and because of that diagnosis is also taking hormones with the full intention of “blending” into society as a full-time woman/man. The word “trans” can mean transgender which is an umbrella term which covers transsexual people as well as many others. Which I why I used the term true transsexual, as these are the people which Julie Burchill is specifically throwing her hatred and bigotry at.

          • April k

            A human is just the same before and after a diagnosis. Please don’t divide us with out need. Since ‘Transsexual’ is a medical term indicating a diagnosis, that is all that is needed. I have seen many internet people try to call other trans people out as fake or less than because of perceived falseness. To include a diagnosis, and the taking of hormones, and the intention of ‘blending in’ you have left me out of your circle, Even though I have been diagnosed and am on HRT. Furthermore you are excluding folks who cannot afford medical care or have health related reasons preventing such medical treatment. Aren’t all those people ‘true’ Transsexuals too?

          • Rachael Warlond

            Given circumstances such as you describe, yes they are technically true transsexuals. The people who I was specifically excluding are those who are CD and wish to remain so, simply because they like still being a man and wish to stay that way.
            Still, one must bear in mind that most, if not all, transsexuals start off as CD anyway. I certainly did, but being CD was always only a stop gap for me as it certainly did not satisfy me totally from an emotionally point of view.
            So to answer your question, no, I’m not excluding you.

          • Natasha

            @Piquette, Intersex, and genetic ambiguity render gender only rationally determined by self declaration, so “men who identify as women” don’t exist, (except perhaps in somebody with multiple personality disorder which is exceedingly rare) no matter how many times you, Bindel, Burchill & Moore keep writing, saying and thinking they do!

          • Piquette

            Natasha, in several places in this discussion you are comparing transgender people, who have a feeling they were born in the wrong sex, to a very rare group of people who are born inter-sex or with unusual chromosomal combinations which are biological conditions. I don’t think it’s right for you to equate the two, and I suspect that this is offensive to inter-sex people who have often experienced harrowing abuse (or terrible errors in treatment) at the hands of their doctors, including mutilating surgeries.

            The rights of inter-sex people to self-determine their sexual identities and the meaning of their bodies and lives should not be appropriated by the varied identities found under the trans umbrella. Including what you call a “true transsexual.”

            Edit: sorry, I think it is Rachael who is using the phrase “true transsexual” and equating it with a biological condition like inter-sex conditions.

          • Rachael Warlond

            A true transsexual is simply a generalized description. The similarity between people who are born intersex and those who should have born female instead of male (or male instead of female), is only in so far that, in the case of intersex people, that gender dysphoria will exist within these people if the doctor chose the incorrect gender for the person at birth. This is where the similarities end.

          • Natasha

            @Piquette,

            1. You incorrectly implied the opposite of what the frequency data shows. In fact intersex c/w transsexual / trans gender are NOT a “very rare group of people”, since intersex is MORE common that transgender :-

            * Frequency of intersex: -
            “not XX and not XY one in 1,666 births”
            “Klinefelter (XXY) one in 1,000 births”
            “Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female one in 100 births”
            http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency

            * Frequency of transsexual: -
            “the prevalence of SRS in the U.S. is at least on the order of 1:2500″
            http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TS/TSprevalence.html

            Thus the data supports the idea, manifest in medical practice, that transgender is a subset of intersex.

            2. So you have it backwards Piquette; transgender / transsexual is a subset of intersex, thus I’m not “comparing” or “… appropriat[ing] … [t]he rights of inter-sex people to self-determine their sexual identities and the meaning of their bodies and lives”, I’m including trans under the intersex “umbrella”, NOT, as you put it ” appropriat[ing]… intersex [in] the varied identities found under the trans umbrella.”

            3. My contention is supported elsewhere too: “Intersex is not Trans. Now, this doesn’t mean they’re mutually exclusive. Intersex people can be trans. Trans people can be intersex. But intersex people are not inherently trans.”
            http://binarysubverter.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/546/

            4. And supported by my own personal experience: I have several friends who are intersex, who were born with “unusual chromosomal combinations” suffered terrible genitally mutilating surgeries as babies and assigned the wrong gender, which in adulthood they corrected under the GRA. By the way, the GRA (2004) and the SDA (1999 & 2010 amendments) were fought for and won by transgender people, e.g. Press For Change etc., which all intersex people now benefit from.

            5. The law only recognises two categories: female or male, and just about everyone on the planet is legally obliged to be assigned to one or the other, and a certificate produced at birth as evidence, not proof, so intrinsically it can be changed. If you Piquette, argue for the “rights of inter-sex people to self-determine their sexual identities and the meaning of their bodies and lives”, then why can’t a particular subset of intersex, so long as they meet the medical criteria, also have the same rights? Why alone out of ALL the intersex minorities do you target transgender / transsexual people?

            6. You also state that “… unusual chromosomal combinations … are biological conditions… “. Well, (excepting mosaics) genes are expressed in every cell in the body, including the brain. So a person with ” … unusual chromosomal combinations…” that it reports about its own self declared gender identity must also fall within your definition of those who you deem it is okay to correct their gender identity, once that brain is socialised into recognising what gender is, and is mature enough to meet medical criteria etc.

            7. To deny gender self determination to only transgender / transsexual people, a “right” you grant to the wider intersex community, together with denial of the empirical data is irrational ‘trans-phobic’ / ‘inter-phobic’ bigotry.

        • Piquette

          “maybe I need to teach her how to be a real woman”

          Snort. You can try to make that offer, but you may not like the response you get.

          If there’s one way in which transsexuality/transgenderism acts as a public education tool, it is this: it brings into high relief the pure artifice of this nebulous thing called ideal femininity (whatever that may be at any given time and place).

          But, it’s an elaborate artifice with real consequences. Femininity signals one’s social status as inferior, childlike, vulnerable, available for use and abuse. So, you go ahead and embrace and perfect your femininity, but understand that we who were born female and raised as a girls were not given the choice to opt in or out. Resistance is possible, but escape from sexism and misogyny is not, because the construction of femininity is built upon the female sex, upon the female body with its reproductive functions (whether those reproductive functions are functional or not).

          But, hey, what does any of this feminist analysis matter–what does the abuse of females matter–when a six-year-old boy’s got a dream?

          • TCZoey

            Your idea (and that of most transphobes) of trans women seems to be closer to the way drag queens look, have you ever met a transitioned trans woman? I wear jeans most days, barely wear makeup and I still work in tech (where I do face sexism regularly).

            It’s sad that followers of an ideology that claims to come up for women’s rights are often the largest opponents for the rights of some of the most oppressed women out there.

          • Piquette

            “My” idea of trans women comes DIRECTLY from well-known trans-activists like Paris Lees and Julia Serano, and from commenters like Rachael Maybe-I-need-to-teach-her-how-to-be-a real-woman Warlond, as well as from commenters with a decidedly more violent streak who threaten women (women who challenge genderism) with beatings, rape, and sexually degrading insults, and from MTF “lesbians” decrying the injustice of something called the “cotton ceiling.” Porn-inspired, bikini-clad selflies (very different from the tongue-in-cheek glamour of drag queens, who, by the way, are proudly male) may or may not be icing on the cake.

            Seems to me the trans community, particularly MTFs, have a big PR problem. If you don’t identify with these trans spokespeople or representatives, and disagree with their misogynistic views and behaviours, then by all means, please say so. But, if you think that MTFs are “some of the most oppressed women out there” then that’s an impasse.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You are defining what you choose to call a community by those who perhaps shout loudest. Those who shout loudest may well be the angriest. I choose to meet transgender people in the ‘real world’ and make my mind up about individuals.

          • Piquette

            I’m “choosing” to hear threats, verbal violence, misogyny, sexism, appropriation, manipulation and stupidity (e.g., street harassment is sexy!) from MTF trans activists/commenters?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I’m choosing to hear the voices of real people I meet. I don’t agree that street harassment is sexy and I’ve said on here that I don’t agree with Paris Lees’ article. There, I’m a Facebook friend of Paris Lees and I’m criticising her. Whatever next!

          • April k

            Hi Piquette, I am a queer trans woman, and although I really dislike a lot of your words, I think you are a valid and good human being. I do not question your identity or status. In fact I have a basic love for you. Please take note that this trans person will never threaten you, in fact, and even though we are probably very far away from each other, is there anything i can do (that does not harm myself or others) to help you? :)

          • Piquette

            Thank you, April k. At minimum, you could speak out against misogynistic threats of violence against feminists who criticize gender. You could do this even when you, yourself, are not critical of gender.

            Also, you could take notice of the many, many heterosexual men who take shelter under the trans umbrella to legitimize their fetishization and objectification of the female body and of cultural fantasies of femininity. These are sexual practices which hurt girls and women, both directly and indirectly.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            OK, Piquette, I do what’s required by your first paragraph. What evidence do you have for your statements in paragraph two?

          • Rachael Warlond

            Yes I know. It would be a fairly useless exercise and I only said it as a form of sarcasm. Burchill is who she is and no amount of persuasion would change her views. Mind you, I must point out that while I embrace my femininity, I am in fact a jeans and T-shirt type of woman (or comfortable top) most of the time. Let’s just say that I blend into the real world and live within it every day. The differences between being who I was and who I am now certainly does open some interesting doors in regard to the used and abused scenario, second class citizen from a female perspective. The fact is that while being “out and about” and dressed appropriately, sometimes even sexily, but never slutty, the would be suitors, while initially were complementary to me, it doesn’t take long for it all to become very tiresome. Of course, it they knew I was transsexual they would probably run a mile, but then that is their problem, as they approached me first; I didn’t approach them.
            So what have I learnt since transitioning:
            That I enjoy being me much better than before, bearing in mind that for me, at least, it was never about sex or lifestyle change, but something I needed to do for my overall well-being.
            It’s still a man’s world and I need to adapt as a female to living within the sometimes fragile constructs of that world.
            Chivalry is not completely dead just yet, although feminists, especially of the extreme variety, certainly seem to be trying very hard to totally destroy the concept.
            So, in basic terms, there you have it. I’m not complex at all, but I do have opinions, dreams and things that I will not tolerate just like anyone else.
            Do I believe in equality – yes I do, but not at the expense of a female being a female and a male being a male.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And my version of equality, supported by medical practice and the law as well as my own beliefs about self-determination, says thank you for that – woman to woman.

          • Piquette

            Interesting that you keep calling upon the authority of law and medicine as protectors of equality. As if there weren’t a long history of women and other disenfranchised groups bending the knee before these institutions and being destroyed by their power.

            Medical establishments and individual doctors do permanent harm to people with so-called gender identity disorders, particularly to children who do not have the capacity to consent to the poisonous puberty blockers and hormones administered to them. Why there isn’t a howl of outcry over this medical child abuse is beyond me. There will be, though, given time. Ordinary, common sense people are always the first to recognize the tyranny of “experts” and to bring them down. That is, until a new crop of experts rises up, and our faith in them is restored once again. In-between all this, many ravaged lives.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            The arguments you put forward have been lost as medical practice and related laws have relatively recently been introduced. My ordinary common sense means I listen to the experience of trans gender people and take my lead from them. ‘So-called’ identity disorders are not ‘so-called’ to me, they ARE. The issue of the age of consent for such treatment is something I would need to explore further to comment meaningfully.

          • Piquette

            My argument is not lost because current practice is relatively recent. It is strengthened. The harm it does–again, especially to children–has not yet peaked and the information has not yet diffused into the wider society. That is beginning to happen, with media such as TV talk shows, but the response so far has been largely uncritical. It will, though, when people get over their self-congratulatory liberal attitudes, and stop to ask themselves: “Can a toddler really show signs of gender non-conformity, and, if so, why on earth is this considered a disorder?” And: “Is it a good idea to give 11- and 12-year-olds puberty blockers? To remove a 16-year-old girl’s healthy breasts?”

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Your argument was lost. I mention relatively recently because what is actually known now that wasn’t known then re: adults? The question of an age of consent is, as I’ve said, something I would need to research more before commenting. The difference between is that I believe in gender dysphoria, I believe it relates to gender identity and I believe that treatment, including surgery can alleviate it. Furthermore, I believe that gender identities should be respected. I think you disagree with all of the above. I will not change your mind, you will not change mine. Impasse.

          • Piquette

            Rachael, you’re in love with gender roles.

            Chivalry isn’t what it appears to be. The reason it isn’t dead is because it soothes both women and men into a game of pretend: pretending that a violent social hierarchy doesn’t exist–pretending that, in fact, it’s women who are favoured and privileged. Chivalry is a booby prize.

          • Rachael Warlond

            In love with gender roles? Absolutely not, nor do I adhere to them. I’m simply happy that I am now the gender, or at least, the closest I can be to that gender, that I am. I feel emotionally and physically “whole”, whereas before I felt fragmented. It’s just a nice feeling to be actually living my dream which I’ve had since I was a little kid.
            On the subject of chivalry, I know it’s not the simple act of, say, a guy opening a door for me and the many other “acts” which a male performs for a female. Hidden behind it all, in some cases, at least, it the possibility of said man hoping, by performing the act, of “getting into their pants” of said woman.
            So I certainly wouldn’t call it a booby prize. A game, in some cases, it might be, but you have to remember that women and men have been playing games with each other for an eternity. It’s the human form of mating rights at it’s basic and most animalistic level.

          • danah gaz

            > Rachael, you’re in love with gender roles.

            Says someone who decided to call themselves “Piquette” – a deliberately feminized word, and someone who desperately clings to the binary in nearly every post.

            I guess it’s okay for you to reify gender – just nobody else.

          • Piquette

            Oh, danah, danah. Piquette is not the feminine form of “piquet” (though, really, so what if it were?). To the north of you is a great big country called Canada, where many French and Métis people live. Piquette is a not-uncommon surname there. It is also, most important to me, a character name from the works of a beloved Canadian novelist. Sheesh.

          • danah gaz

            Fair enough. I can get about as far as Vancouver before I start getting annoyed,

            I guess that’s why I spend more time in Mexico.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    The Gender Recognition Act
    The Gender Recognition Act 2004 (‘GRA’) provides transgendered people with
    legal recognition in their acquired gender. Legal recognition will be
    achieved when a gender recognition certificate is issued by a Gender
    Recognition Panel made up of at least one legally and one medically
    qualified member.

    The GRA does not require that the person has undergone gender reassignment treatment to qualify. Indeed, the GRA recognises that a person’s gender identity, and not surgery, is the defining factor.

    The effect of obtaining a gender recognition certificate will be significant. For example, a male to female transsexual person will be legally recognised as a woman ‘for all purposes’ including the criminal law, entitlement to state benefits and occupational pension schemes. Importantly, she will also be entitled to
    be issued with a new birth certificate reflecting the changed gender and
    will be able to marry someone of the opposite sex or enter into a civil
    partnership with someone of the same sex.

    The GRA came into force in April 2005.

    So, this is the law. It recognises people’s gender identity. Compare and contrast this with Ms Burchill’s comments about MTF transgender people. In this article, you have her comments directed at Paris Lees. Here’s some more comments:

    “a bunch of dicks in chick’s clothing” – Julie Burchill
    “their relationship with their phantom limb” – Julie Burchill
    “trannies” – Julie Burchill
    “shemales” – Julie Burchill
    “shims” – Julie Burchill
    “a bunch of bed-wetters in bad wigs” – Julie Burchill
    “their major beautification operations” – Julie Burchill
    “how very stupid men look, in fact, when they dress up as women” – Julie Burchill
    “I feel even less patience with transsexuals” – Julie Burchill
    “Male to female transsexuals are Michael Jackson to the transvestites Ali G”Julie Burchill –
    “they presume that its authenticity can be theirs through a few cosmetic adjustments” – Julie Burchill
    “Transsexualism is, basically, just another, more drastic twist on the male menopause” – Julie Burchill

    How can anyone say that Julie Burchill is recognising or, at the least, respecting the gender identity of MTF transgender people? Honestly, how?

    • Rachael Warlond

      The thing is that regardless of what rights and laws are changed or added, it still won’t stop idiots/bigots from criticizing us. I would suppose that me being transsexual, could take her to court and sue her, but at the end of the day, would it really make any difference. I mean, what is the penalty for discrimination, whether it be a single person or a group or race of people who are being discriminated against?
      In fact, by suing her, it could actually have a negative effect by placing even more focus on us or the entire LGBTIQ community. :(

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Rachael, I don’t know how to answer your question other than to say that I feel strongly that Julie Burchill’s words fly in the face of the recognition to which you are entitled under the law. Maybe someone on here knows more about how it might be applied here?

        • Rachael Warlond

          Thank you for your reply, but it makes me wonder why a lawful organisation wouldn’t “see” what she is saying and take her to task on it. I’m sure that if she was spreading racial discrimination, something would be done, but it also unfortunately appears that different types of discrimination are not necessarily treated equally in this case.

          • Natasha

            Rachael, the ‘law’ doesn’t work like that…

        • Natasha

          “The Protection from Harassment Act 1997
          This Act was primarily created to provide protection against stalkers, but it has been used in other ways. Under this act the definition of harassment is behaviour which causes alarm or distress.

          The Act gave Employers vicarious liability for harassment by their employees.

          The Criminal offences of Harassment include:
          s.1 the offence of harassment. i.e. conducting a course of conduct—
          (a) which amounts to harassment of another, and
          s. 4 Putting people in fear of violence. A person whose course of conduct causes another to fear, on at least two occasions, that violence will be used.”

          http://www.pfc.org.uk/olderleglislation.html

  • Tara Morris

    I think that people are starting to get fed up with her ranting, it just make her look childish & if anything it just expose what little tallent that she has got also how out dated she is. If all she can do is throw insults around than she is limited is she not?

  • Helen Wilson

    Its worth saying the Susanne Moore exchanges that caused her to get so upset was between her and a cis gender woman getting outraged on trans women’s behalf’s. Then the troll army’s became involved with the usual misogynist threats.

    Go look the exchanges up they are stored in various places on the web.

    Julie Burchill belongs on the pages of the Daily Mail with her reactionary cat calling… Paris Lees has a lot of great contribution to make in debate between trans and cis gender women, although her personal opinion on what make a great night out comes from her own young professional woman’s view a little removed from the experiences of may other women.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      If you look at what was said on Twitter, Suzanne Moore also said some hurtful things. I don’t think anyone came out of it ‘looking good’.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    Brazilian footballer Alex Da Costa has said he is not homophobic even though he
    believes homosexuality is wrong. – See more at:
    http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/brazil-soccer-player-alex-its-not-anti-gay-believe-being-gay-wrong120314#sthash.MVaiIUMH.9WD9qG5k.dpuf

    What does this remind anyone of?

    • Rachael Warlond

      That’s a bit like saying, “I’m not racist, but “whatever” race of people shouldn’t exist.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        or ‘I’m not transphobic but am going to call Paris Lees a little gay boy’…

        • Rachael Warlond

          Exactly!!!

  • Daniel

    The problem with people like Burchill is that they make controversial comments for money; knowing that it’ll generate a bit of a fuss, get them some coverage and some press inches and then vanish again. They are vacuous and the public sucks it up. Welcome to the world that NewsCorp created.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      But her offensive and derogatory comments about particularly MTF transgender people have not vanished at all, Daniel.

      • Daniel

        As offensive and outrageous as they are; they are designed to outrage and grab attention. The more attention given to cretins like this, the more they thrive. I can think of a particular game-show contestant who seems to live on the money generated by being offensive.

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          Don’t you think there’s a danger of someone in authority listening to her views? Don’t you think that current medical practice and legislation might be in danger?

          • Daniel

            I understand what you’re saying, but no; I genuinely don’t think that scientific fact and empirical data will be swayed by the utterings of this ridiculous “woman”. She and those like her are part of a dying generation that will soon give way to those with much more compassion and human-based values.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            All I can say, Daniel, is I really, really hope you are right. I believe there is a movement that wants to change everything that has been achieved for transgender people. And I believe Julie Burchill’s comments ally her with that movement. I hope compassion and human-based values win the day.

          • Piquette

            How compassionate, how human-based your values are, Daniel, to put “woman” in quotation marks, as if there were any doubt about her sex. But when feminists use quotation marks around “woman” because there ARE legitimate doubts and political implications when males call themselves women, we’re called “bigots” and subjected to inflated and offensive rhetoric which sometimes throws around the word “Nazis.”

          • Daniel

            Interesting interpretation of why I used quotation marks; but wrong nonetheless.
            And a little lesson poppet; Burchill’s actions have shown her to be a bigot. Your archaic and dogmatic assumptions about gender show a complete lack of understanding of the subject. Perhaps you need to revisit what feminism is about, and what really defines gender.

          • Piquette

            “Your archaic and dogmatic assumptions about gender show a complete lack of understanding of the subject. ”

            Upside-down and backwards. It’s the trans-activists who make archaic and dogmatic assumptions about gender. Either you are not paying close attention to what gender-critical feminists are saying, or you’re simply lying.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Gender critical feminism is not the defining form of feminism.

          • Daniel

            Precisely and in a nutshell :-)

          • Natasha

            I couldn’t give a crap what “gender-critical feminists are saying”. What about what transgender people are saying about ourselves, since it us who are on trial here?

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I think Daniel was doing it to make a point about how hurtful it is when people question other’s gender identity, Piquette. I think it was a rhetorical device here.

          • Natasha

            @Piquette Please stop pedalling illogical crap like “when males call themselves women” when gender is fundamentally and primarily self declared. You have provided not one single iota of evidence that stands even a second of scrutiny. Whingeing about gender and genital shape is irrelevant to the question of gender identity. Using your logic you won’t be offended if I say I’m so close to typing “you fcuking turd” but I won’t.

          • danah gaz

            > to put “woman” in quotation marks, as if there were any doubt about her sex.

            What a hypocrite you are.

  • DZ

    Julie Burchill says that “no human who did not grow up as a girl can call themselves a woman”. Sorry, but people are too different and have different experiences throughout life. So there is no “single and specific experience all girls have before they can become a woman”, at least I haven’t found one.

    Also, feminism will not gain anything by going against trans gender people. Many of us have experienced both how it is to be a woman and how it is to be a man, isn’t that something that could be of use to some parts of feminism?

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      And again I find myself pointing out that the Gender Recognition Act
      2004 (‘GRA’) provides transgendered people with legal recognition in their acquired gender. Whatever Julie Burchill says.

      • Natasha

        That misses the point Trans Fan and Proud, because the GRA provides no remedy against transphobia, so it doesn’t make it illegal. However, two amendments to the (1975) Sex Discrimination Act [ NOW REPEALED by The Equality Act 2010 ] provide a remedy for transgender people for discrimination in employment (1999) & goods &
        Services (2010). Clearly this does not cover Burchill’s, Bindel’s or Moore’s transphobic
        attacks in their public writing or speeches. The ‘rags’ they write for
        wouldn’t allow it if what they wrote and say were illegal.

        Free speech allows Burchill, Bindel and Moore to say and write what they want.

        But perhaps their behavior is illegal another Act? Like The Protection from Harassment Act 1997
        http://www.pfc.org.uk/olderleglislation.html

        Don’t hold your breath though. I filed over a dozen claims under the SDA between 2001 and 2006, and IMHO the Employment Tribunal Service, and the court system itself is criminally corrupt. Don’t rely on the courts to protect transgender people, unless they are dragged kicking and screaming, and forced to look at the evidence, by for example the statutory body set up under the SDA to help people fight cases, as I was, see X v Brighton and Hove City Council [2006/7]

        http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/advice-and-guidance/your-rights/transgender/transgender-case-decisions/

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          I know it misses the point in ‘real life’ but I don’t think it should!! If the law allows recognition of gender, why can’t people respect that, freedom of speech or no freedom of speech. I’ll check out the link now.

      • DZ

        Why are you pointing out the Gender Recognition Act as response to my comment?

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          Because I’m trying to refute what Julie Burchill is saying in the quote you posted! I’m not disagreeing with you – but her!

          • DZ

            Ah okey, just asking because I got unsure if it was about the Julie Burchill quote or something I said, partly because I’m not that familiar with the GRA.

  • GemmaSeymour

    Julie Burchill needs to take a good long look in a mirror. If I looked as masculine as she does, I’d probably be fairly well annoyed, too.

    • Adrian Morgan

      “… if it wasn’t complicit in the deaths of actual human beings.”

      Where?

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        You want figures about deaths of transgender people?

        • Adrian Morgan

          I was not addressing you – I was wanting the person who made the assertion that Julie Burchill (or her hypocrisy) was “complicit in the deaths of actual human beings” to qualify such a hyperbolic statement with proof that Julie was involved in these deaths.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Whether you were addressing me or not, Adrian, I’m entitled to address you if you comment on here. Yes, transphobia feeds into the attitudes of people who kill transgender people. Yes, transphobia can cause people to self-harm or commit suicide. There is a direct line between offensive and derogatory language about transgender people and those who kill because they see transgender people as ‘other’. The Nazis were able to kill transgender people because they saw them as ‘other’.

          • Adrian Morgan

            Well you have not provided evidence that Julie Burchill has been complicit in people’s deaths, just presented a meandering polemic that even claims that “The Nazis were able to kill transgender people because they saw them as ‘other’.”

            You aren’t talking about the “third sex” or Ouranians, as Magnus Hirschfield described them, are you? His books were burned by Hitler. And people regarded as sexual deviants were killed.

            But what do you mean by “transgender” in the context of Nazi Germany? Surgically altered transsexuals? I don’t think so. But I am open to evidence (not another bloody polemic please). Men who dressed as women? Clarification please.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I am telling you that transphobia feeds into violence and killing. Google for information about the Nazis and transgender people.

          • Adrian Morgan

            No – YOU do the Googling yourself. You made a cockamamie assertion, and you can’t back it up, but you tell ME to Google it, to verify your implausible claim? FFS.

            Do yourself a favour – instead of flaming a comments page with hyperbolic and “dramatic” rhetoric, just reel back the hype and focus on the points you are making.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            No, you do the Googling. I stand by what I said, if you want to disprove it then you try to support what you’re saying. The point I am making is clear, is not hyperbolic rhetoric: transphobia including misgendering feeds into violence and killing. Do yourself a favour and read up on that. You are not here to police what I write.

          • Adrian Morgan

            Truly pathetic. You make a daft assertion that you cannot back up, then say that other people should do your research for you. And then you childishly state “You are not here to police what I write.”

            I am not here to police what you write (a full time job?) but if you address me and make a bullsh*t statement which you can’t back up, I am going to challenge you.

            And you cannot do anything other than push the onus onto me to do your own bloody research. Save your fingers from all the typing and present some facts and data – otherwise it is all too obvious that your comment about Hitler killing transgendered people was just a load of huffing and puffing for effect, but based upon no substance.

            You tried to provide a link above and failed, and now you are childishly saying that you were right all along on historical fact, but you are not prepared to do the research.

            Face it. You are just a liar who makes a lot of noise. Pathetic.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            You fall back on insults and patronising me all you like. Your opinion of me is of no importance to me. I am now posting evidence that I am not a liar so you may want to take that back. I don’t promise not to make any noise though. And i will not stoop to patronising or insulting you.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Face it. I am not a liar. I am not pathetic. And I will not be patronised on here by a man who can’t be bothered to read around a subject before commenting.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            ““But Parker,” you ask. “Aren’t there bigger issues to worry about? What about the startlingly high rate of trans suicide attempts, or the number of homeless trans youth, or the number of trans women of color who find themselves the victims of physical violence? Why are you so hung up on a word? It’s just a word.” Well, my inner devil’s advocate, you’re absolutely right. Those are important issues, and addressing those should take precedence over whether I have a panic attack after being called the t slur. This isn’t about panic attacks, this is about the systemic dehumanization of trans people.

            When someone is no longer treated as though they have a shred of humanity in them, they become easier to attack. It’s the same reason people often use the phrase “born a man” to describe trans women. When someone has a baby, finding “It’s a boy!” and “It’s a girl!” cards is no problem. I ask you to try to find a card that reads, “It’s a man!” You can’t. It’s for this reason that trans people are treated as though they never had the innocence brought on by childhood: it’s easier to attack someone if you don’t view them as ever having been “pure.” When it comes to morally justifying emotional and even physical attack, a man will always be easier to attack than a boy; a woman will always be easier to attack than a girl; a t slur will always be easier to attack than a human being.

            When you use these words, and when you disregard the concerns that have been brought to you by both trans individuals themselves as well as organizations like GLAAD, you contribute to those larger problems: homelessness, violence, poverty, and more.”

            http://www.advocate.com/commentary/2014/02/20/op-ed-its-time-stop-t-word

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            “This past year 238 trans* people were murdered worldwide, according to Transgender Europe’s Transgender Murder Project.And these are just a fraction of the real number of deaths, because many go unreported, are not designated as hate crimes, or are not recognized as deaths of trans* people, because the media frequently reports birth-assigned names and sexes without honoring the true chosen names and gender identities of the victims. Some law enforcement officials may look upon many of these murders as deaths of disposable people, people whom society looks upon as freaks and outcasts, and the murders frequently go unsolved. This violence disproportionally takes the lives of trans women of color, who live at the intersection of oppression between racism and transphobia.”

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jamieann-meyers/we-matter-transgender-day-of-remembrance-2013_b_4289786.html

          • Natasha

            @Adrian Morgan. You now have two of us giving you links to a huge amount of data suggesting that transphobic hatred is endemic. The assertion we are making is that journalists & the media has the power to mould opinion. And that journalists Burchill, Moore & Bindel contribute to a climate of hatred against trans people. I was a teacher, but after parents “complained” in 2001 I have been unable to get any work at all : -

            http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=354245
            http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=354341
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TNUKdigest/message/5034
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771330.Head_was_right_to_send_teacher_home/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771333.Confusion/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771340.No_option/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771362.No_harm_done/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771348.Not_a_sexist/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771349.Disruptive/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/6771361.Self_serving/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/5141847.Unsuitable/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/25/5141858.Not_a_sexist/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/17/6771802.Sex_education/?ref=arc
            http://www.theargus.co.uk/archive/2001/10/17/6771804.Top_head/?ref=arc

            This letter was published in the Times Educational Supplement in 2001.

            http://www.tes.co.uk/article.aspx?storycode=354245

            It lied about me, and what happened when the school dismissed me. As a DIRECT result of that letter my personnel records kept under DPA rules have been marked “blacklisted” by four employment agencies, and marked “non-preferred” by two schools, and unable to secure work as a previously well liked and successful transgender teacher. The agency trade body REC, the Tribunal system, and the National Union of Teachers all refused to help me, change or remove, or force those who blacklisted me remove them from my records.

            Again, Burchill, Bindle & Moore didn’t directly cause this. They are however guilty of being complicit, of supporting, of providing a context in which it is ok to push me out of my career.

            Power corrupts our environment: -
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

            Do you still have the temerity to dispute this ?

          • Piquette

            Natasha, I’m surprised you’ve provided us with all these links detailing your situation with the teachers’ union and parents of school children. For the most part, all this information, rather than illustrating rampant transphobia, instead puts you in a rather unsympathetic light.

          • Natasha

            @ Piquette do you seriously think I am posting for your benefit, information or feedback? Or I give a sh*t about your personal opinions about me, e.g. “puts you in a rather unsympathetic light” by posting empty assertions like this, with no analysis, empathy or specifics? Yet again you avoid the issues raised, perhaps because I have exposed your ideas as vacuous that you have no worthwhile response(s) to?

            The ideas and rhetoric pushed by radical feminists and TERFs (an agenda
            you seem to argue for) is so far removed from humanity to render you all
            dangerously psychotic. As such you can’t help your selves as you are
            mentally ill. But that would be too easy, and gives you a back door to
            escape responsibility for your hateful, deathmongering bile.

            So far I have spent dozens of hours on this thread, carefully composing responses aiming to: establish that rad-fems and TERFS advance extremely dangerous irrational ideas; render their ideas a dirty little stub in the backwaters of history by exposing their rhetoric as dysfunctional pre-Copernican epicycles; and to extinguishing those ideas forever, ensuring they go the way of the dinosaurs and flat-earther’s to extinction.

            This is because rad-fems and TERFs would rather see transgender women dead than admit we have a right to to a peaceful existence and self determination along side the rest of humanity. TERFs do not just attack our ideas, they attack us as people, and wish we would evaporate, and be wiped from the face of the planet for ever. On the way to that disgusting utopia you would see me bullied out of work by those in power, cut off from family & friends, alone and with no place safe for me, whilst sneering at me and blaming me for being “blacklisted” and victim of judicial corruption.

            To shore up your pathetic agenda you assume the problem is outside of your selves, rather than the far more difficult work of looking inside your own psyche. Which transgender people have to do in great depth order to make sense of the ‘cards we have been dealt with’ from birth. And you are so deluded you regard yourself(s) a decent human being(s) capable of evolution, love, humility and understanding in your denial of our existence?

            Transgender people appear in just about every culture ever studied in anthropological history. In most places and times we had positions of respect BECAUSE straddling the gender divide was well understood as hugely beneficial for the rest of the community by, for example providing unique perspectives for our fellow humans to solve collective problems & personal difficulties. Families would regard themselves as being gifted with a ‘two spirit’ amongst them. The entire community would celebrate their good fortune.
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit

            But the current climate of intolerance towards transgender people – actively promoted by TERFS – is nearly unique in 5,000 years of global anthropological history.

            Perhaps the TERFs bile is because in IQ tests for example, transgender people score significantly higher on average, than homosexual people, who in turn measure higher than the general population?
            http://sillyolme.wordpress.com/2010/04/06/smarter-than-the-average-bear/

            Or perhaps the TERF’s are jealous of us because many transgender people have Asperger’s?
            http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/18/study-why-some-transgendered-people-have-higher-levels-of-autistic-traits/

            Autistic Spectrum Advantage, like Asperger’s is a key trait in the emergence and evolution of technology. Imagine how the first stone tools were made. By a bunch of neurotypicals?
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurotypical

            Or by a dedicated brain that can concentrate for hours, days years, decades, on a single selfless creative aim?

            “Bill Gates, Woody Allen, Bob Dylan, Keanu Reeves, Al Gore, and Garrison
            Keillor are some of the many notable public figures who experts believe
            show symptoms of Asperger’s syndrome. There is also some evidence to suggest that Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton exhibited the condition as well.”
            http://www.wisegeek.com/what-are-the-main-symptoms-of-aspergers-syndrome-in-adults.htm#didyouknowout

            Fcuk you TERFs.

          • Piquette

            Yes, Natasha, I did think you were posting those links for the benefit and feedback of everyone reading and/or participating in this discussion–and that would include me.

            The accusation that radical feminists would rather see trans people dead is 100% untrue.

          • Natasha

            @Piquette, TERFs deny I exist as woman, that means I am dead in their eyes. So it is 100% true. Now respond to other points I made.

          • Piquette

            That is correct, Natasha: I, and other women, deny that male-born people can become female. And, with your ostensibly trans-specific superior intellect and neurology, you know all the reasons why.

            If maintaining the position that the female sex exists, and that the feminine gender role is harmful to women, is, in your mind, tantamount to wishing death upon you … well, what can I say? Except that I won’t give in to this kind of emotional blackmail.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            It is correct that you and SOME other women, no doubt including Julie Burchill, deny that “male-born people can become female”. It is correct that I and many other women accept that gender dysphoria exists, that treatment helps and gender identity should be respected. To deny someone their identity is a form of eradication. That’s not emotional blackmail – it’s fact.

          • Natasha

            @Piquette, accusing me of “emotional blackmail” is frankly pathetic. As @Trans Fan And Proud puts it: “to deny someone their identity is a form of eradication. That’s not emotional blackmail – it’s fact.”

            To avoid this fact, @Piquette vacuously repeats that “… I, and other women, deny that male-born people can become female…”. Like a fading echo, @Piquette yet again utterly fails to address the issues raised by me and several others here. @Piquette’s denial, is based upon a denial of objective biological reality: that at the very least the existence of ambiguous sex genes and ambiguous secondary / physical morphology sexual characteristics, means that some people – intersex – even in @Piquette’s twisted universe of biological determinism, are permitted to change from the gender/sex assigned at birth to the other, on demand and only on the basis of self determination. To not permit this for some people – on the ad hoc basis that their ‘characteristics’ are not sufficiently ‘ambiguous’ for @Piquette’s and her TERF (Transgender Exclusionary Radical Feminist) buddies – is patently absurd and irrational, because it denies everyday medical reality: -

            “Intersex, in humans and other animals, is a variation in sex characteristics including chromosomes, gonads, or genitals that do not allow an individual to be distinctly identified as male or female. Such variation may involve genital ambiguity, and combinations of chromosomal genotype and sexual phenotype other than XY-male and XX-female. Intersex infants with ambiguous outer genitalia may be surgically ‘corrected’ to more easily fit into a socially accepted sex category. Others may opt, in adulthood, for surgical procedures in order to align their physical sex characteristics with their gender identity or the sex category to which they were assigned at birth. Others will not become aware that they are intersex—unless they receive genetic testing—because it does not manifest in their phenotype.”
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

            For TERFs to then style themselves as ‘vigilante gatekeepers’ abusing their power as journalists and pseudo researchers / authors like Janice Raymond (Transsexual Empire) bent on protecting their perverted vision of girl / womanhood, by denying medical reality, is the diametric opposite of the TERF stated aim of freeing us all from gender stereo types. This renders TERFs like @Piquette, Burchill, Bindel, Moore, Raymond and all the rest of them – and I chose these words very carefully – dangerous, psychotic, arrogant, bigoted, hypocrites.

            Remember that the burden of proof falls on those making an argument, in this case TERFs arguing that trans women are male / men. It’s not up to trans women to refute this. It’s up to TERFs to provide sufficient evidence to support their claim: a task they fail spectacularly at.

            Further @Piquette, I did not claim as you wrongly asserts that I possess “… ostensibly trans-specific superior intellect and neurology …”. I stated that I was a member of a group – trans women – that on average posses these traits. And that other societies at other times celebrated our existence, because those traits are huge advantages in, for example, the development of technology, and other human endeavours that require long periods of concentration based in reality. Traits that @Piquette and the TERFs seem not to posses, or they wouldn’t keep claiming that black is white, or that gravity pulls upwards, or that genes and morphology is a pivotal inescapable determinant of sex / gender.

            The claim I do make, and which most people who have though about it, or who have had all the evidence placed before them do make, is that gender – woman / man, boy / girl, male / female (whatever) – is self defined. Further that biological essentialism, the position @Piquette and the TERFs adopt, is irrational fantasy.

            But @Piquette goes further. Much further. First, @Piquette and the TERFs claim that biological essentialism must be extended to the social and political realm, in order to specifically erase trans women from existence. Second that it is legitimate for those in power – journalists / authors / politicians etc… to pursue this aim. Third, that this endeavour does not contribute to the deaths of trans women, as if this deaths occur in a cultural and social vacuum. Fourth, that when trans women defend our right to exist, we are somehow, corrupting the existence of women in general, and somehow strengthening patriarchy! Fifth, that trans women who argue that the TERFs position is irrational, are engaging in “emotional blackmail.” Sixth, they enjoy the ‘view up their own rectums’ by being reduced to saying that they “fundamentally disagree about that, and won’t find a resolution any time soon–if ever.” Seventh, that they “… do have the slightest hope that, over time, and with some distance from your cause, [trans women and our supporters] will finally take notice of the deep-seated misogyny that runs through trans-activism and individual MTFs. It is there. Consistently. There are exceptions, of course, but they prove the rule. It is there because it is consistent with trans politics.”

            As if “trans politics” was a single monument designed solely to undermine all women. Wow.

            Get a life outside of being a TERF @Piquette, and all your buddies, before you become even more irrelevant and extinct.

          • April k

            100% purity does not exist. You cannot speak for all radical feminists, any attempt to assert either proposition is invalid.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Come on then Mr Sarcastic I Know Julie Burchill Personally. You’ve been given evidence by different people from different sources. And you have absolutely no comeback.

            Face it. You are just a liar who makes a lot of noise. Pathetic.

          • Natasha

            @Adrian Morgan… I’ve done the Googling for you, see my various posts above this micro thread. Please now respond.

          • April k

            Adrian. Why don’t you justify your argument, instead of labeling the arguments of others without actually disputing them through evidence and logic? You are executing a smarter version of the “No its not” tactic.

            You have failed to address the many points and links which have been provided, instead labeling one or two points with logical fallacy.

            My evaluation of your communication suggests that you are not attempting to win or to learn. My best guess is that your goal is to waste the time of people who may not notice that is your goal.

            “reel back the hype and focus on the points you are making” – Rhetoric designed to invalidate the arguments of the opposition without addressing them.

            “”transgender” in the context of Nazi Germany? Surgically altered transsexuals?” – Muddying the water, the definitions of both terms are clear and unequal.

            “complicit in the deaths of actual human beings.” Because complicit may not have been the most accurate word to use does the argument become completely invalid? Sounds like the people you are opposing have corrected that and you have failed to address the growth of the discussion…like a rock making turbulence in the flow of water.

            …Do public figures influence people? Is a preponderance of fear, ignorance, and rhetoric conducive to hate crime? Well, hateful thoughts are often the motivation behind hateful action…

          • Natasha

            @April, well put and nicely restrained, @Adrian Morgan posts like a troll…

          • Trans Fan and Proud
          • Trans Fan and Proud

            sorry, wrong link, will find the right one and post it….

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Right, evidence:

            “Under Germany’s infamous Paragraph 175 law, being gay was a crime and tens of thousands of gay men, lesbian women and transsexuals were convicted and sent to their deaths in the concentration camps. Gay men
            wore “downward pointed” pink triangles, while lesbian women were forced to wear black triangles. Transsexuals, “identified” by their genitalia rather than their identity, wore the corresponding pink/black triangles.”

            http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/08/05/1003408/-Last-Known-Gay-Holocaust-Survivor-Dies

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            In addition to Jews, the targeted groups included Poles (of whom 2.5 million gentile Poles were killed) and some other Slavic peoples; Soviets (particularly prisoners of war); Romanies (also known as Gypsies) and others who did not belong to the Aryan Herrenvolk “Aryan master race”; the mentally ill, the deaf, the physically disabled and mentally retarded; homosexual and transsexual people; political opponents such as communists, social democrats and socialists; and religious dissidents, i.e. members of Jehovah’s Witnesses.[2][3] T

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            Evidence: Tucked away in a Tel Aviv park, a concrete, triangle-shaped plaque details the plight of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people under Adolf Hitler’s Third Reich. It resembles the pink triangles Nazis
            forced gays to wear in concentration camps during World War II and states in English, Hebrew and German: “In memory of those persecuted by the Nazi regime for their sexual orientation and gender identity.” http://bigstory.ap.org/article/israeli-memorial-gay-holocaust-victims-first

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            “Pink Triangle Park and Memorial

            “First permanent, free-standing memorial in America to the thousands of gay, lesbian, bisexual & transgendered people sent to Nazi death-camps in World War II. 15 triangular granite columns, one for every 1,000 gays, lesbians, bisexual and transgender people estimated to have been killed during the Holocaust, stand at the tip of a pink-rock-filled triangular shaped park.”

            http://andrejkoymasky.com/mem/holocaust/ho08.html

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            “As they attack us and our ability to live, and as they mislead people about who we are, it is all the more likely that we shall see anti-transgender attacks increase.”

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/gwendolyn-ann-smith/transgender-day-of-remembrance-rita-hester-and-beyond_b_4297938.html?utm_hp_ref=tw

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            So, to conclude, transphobia targets people as ‘other’, This makes them even more likely to be attacked or killed. It was people targeted as ‘other’ who were killed in the holocaust. Anyone who is transphobic is complicit (not a cause of but complicit in) in such acts. Now you may not agree with me – but that does not make me an idiot.

          • Natasha

            @adrian_morgan:disqus Complicit does NOT mean direct causation. Journalists have power, and those that
            pedal hatred are complicit in creating an environment of intolerance. The reverse is also true. Had Burchill Bindel & Moore peddled love and tolerance, I wouldn’t be here challenging you, and perhaps, just perhaps the bastard that murder my trans friend in Brighton recently would still be alive : –

            http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/man-held-for-murder-of-transsexual-prostitute-1805235.html

            http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-11810650

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            “So fellow cis people, the next time that you laugh, stare, point, make inappropriate jokes, sarcastic or abusive comments remember that 238 trans people were murdered this year alone. Also remember the people that have developed agoraphobia, too afraid to come out of their houses lest they be confronted by one of us that refuses to recognise their humanity. Remember people like Lucy Meadows that were driven to suicide because we did not allow her to live the life that she deserved, one free of harassment and doing a job that she enjoyed.

            I have been guilty of making stupid jokes in the past when I was too ignorant to understand the full weight behind my words of which I am deeply ashamed. Don’t sit and allow others to abuse trans people either. Challenge them. You don’t have to be personally responsible for anyone’s death, being complicit by remaining silent is bad enough. Be better. Do better. We can’t bring back the trans people that have lost their lives but we can stop the body count increasing.”

            http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10461808/Transgender-Day-of-Remembrance-why-you-yes-you-need-to-care.html

      • Natasha

        @Adrian, why can’t you see that Burchill, Bindel & Moore as a journalists, have positions of power, that influence people’s and societies perceptions? Are you truly that blinded?

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unlawfully_killed_transgender_people

        I worked on the Count Me In research project & report, the first of its kind globally…

        http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.brighton.ac.uk%2Fcupp%2Fimages%2Fstories%2Fprojects%2Fc-k-e%2FLGBTU%2FCMIT_MentalHealth_Report_Final_29.5.08.pdf&ei=DuIiU865J8fEkQWMh4H4Cw&usg=AFQjCNHvEfgOc5wZn5aTXyjloglIFfS9Lw&bvm=bv.62922401,d.dGI&cad=rja

        Kindly READ ALL of BOTH links. They show that trans people suffer the worst discrimination, menatl health, murder and sucide rates of any minority, bar none. Then come back here and apologise for your disgraceful denials, and twisting of what is being written to you. I repeat: complicit does NOT mean direct causation.

    • Piquette

      Gemma, it’s awfully funny that you should accuse Burchill of not standing up against the patriarchal culture. Not only because standing up against it is exactly what she does, but because you hurl utterly patriarchal and gendered insults at her in the process. According to you, she fails to look the way a woman should look, and then you say she must suffer from SELF-hatred. Heh.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        And Julie Burchill didn’t hurl gendered insults at Paris Lees? Or, is that OK by you as you too see Paris as a man and part of the patriarchal culture that you oppose?

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    By her own words, let us judge her.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    Yes he is, I think.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    I don’t think he wants to see…

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    I know they don’t outlaw it but my point is that they are not ‘in the spirit’ of legislation – or basic human rights come to that!

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    I want to see what advice is offered here.

    • Natasha

      So do I but it looks like he ignores comments that would expose him as a bigot if he were to reply… go on FF answer the question, given that Bindel, Burchill & Moore shot off first against transgender women …

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no etc to infinity and beyond….

  • kane

    when you thought that nothing could generate more comments then the articles about muslims, here comes pn’s new cash cow, the trans community

    • lgeubank

      These lefties always find SOME way to attack the motives of their ideological opponents. They have nothing pertinent to say about the issue itself, so they’re reduced to slinging their feces through the bars.

      • kane

        have you been drinking again?

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        If you actually bother to read the comments on here there is a lot being said that is pertinent to the issue. Any s**t isn’t coming from us.

  • lgeubank

    I think Burchill just nailed it. (By “it” I mean “the issue” — she expressed the truth of the matter.)

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Sorry, Iguebank, what do you mean by ‘the truth of the matter’?

    • danah_

      Right because trans women are really men, and Laverne Cox, Janet Mock, and Monica Roberts don’t actually exist, and/or are secretly white.

      Spare me your shallow Burchill fandom. It’s sad.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    By ‘Burchill just nailed it’ (see comment below), I hope that Igeubank is not referring to the cock that she thinks some big white bloke is about to chop off…

  • yewtree

    Absolutely disgusted by Julie Burchill’s latest outburst. How utterly vile.

    Gender is fluid and malleable, it’s a performance, there’s room for all under the label of women, including trans women.

    By the way, not all radical feminists are trans-excluding – some of them are inclusive.

    I am a genderqueer bisexual anarcho-feminist and definitely trans-inclusive and intersectional.

  • Natasha
  • http://www.gravatar.com/bonzeblayk/ Bonze Anne Rose Blayk

    “Delude yourselves all you like, but in the way you lot harass born women, your bully boy side always shines through.”

    Julie Burchill – she’s a trainwreck.

    Frankly, it makes me sad.

    Sincerely,
    - bonzie anne

    PS: TERFs characterize any criticism of their reactionary ultrasexist stance as “harassment of born women” – take a couple of examples of trans-loons, or trans kids succumbing to rhetorical overkill when responding to this kind of baiting, use them as a stereotype to justify lumping us all together into “you lot,” it’s GENIUS!

    … if you’re addicted to cliché, Julie Burchill has a fix for you.

    • Rachael Warlond

      The fact is, is that most transsexual women simply wish to blend into society and just live a “normal” life alongside cisgendered women. Most are not activists and the like. I am certainly not an activist at any level and in fact every one of my friends who I see on a regular basis are cisgendered men and women. It’s when I see people, any people or person, making hateful/hurtful statements that I will get involved and that involvement usually only goes so far as to explain who and why we are. Julie Burchill’s description of transsexual women saying that we are “big white blokes who have cut their cocks off” certainly got my attention as it represents total hatred, bigotry and ignorance of who we really are. And who are we? We are women who were born with a birth defect which gave us, either partially or totally, the outward appearance of a male. As has been stated many times, what a person has between their legs does not necessarily define gender. It’s what we have between our ears which is the real organ that defines gender. Nor is our journey of transitioning from M2F got anything to do with sex or gender roles.It is our outward perception of appearing as a male which is the total reason for us to transition, and in fact, it becomes a need, to change our gender. Realistically and personally, I’ve never been so happy since transitioning and now I live, work and play just like any cisgendered woman would – I’m finally who I should have born as, or at least as close as I can possibly be to how I should have been born in the first place.
      So a little respect and understanding please for who a real transsexual woman is.
      A pic which certainly isn’t anything near a “big white bloke who has had their cock cut off”.

  • James Campbell

    The article “The Operation That Can Ruin Your Life” was written over four years ago and science has added to the fund of knowledge we had already accumulated to show that whilst gender roles are largely learned behaviour, gender identity is hard wired in the only ‘sex’ organ worth referring to – the brain. I could attempt to deconstruct the article, but quite frankly I have many other things to do then rake over old ground. What I will say as a doctor who has worked extensively with children and young people who present with gender dysphoria, same sex attraction and intersex conditions that ALL these categories are based on scientific fact. (If you dispute this, go and research the subject for eight years and then practise for 16 years as I have).

    To those who choose to criticise the way transwomen dress perhaps they could first practise their technique by criticising non-trans women’s dress-sense (and see how far that gets them) and then compare with how and why ‘some’ (a minority) transwomen dress as they do. This is sometimes due to the fact that unlike their non-trans sisters, they have not grown up being accepted into the exclusive circle of young women’s discussions and “lets try that on” activities. Another major influence on dress code are the psychs and other gatekeepers (usually male) who impose their ideas of how women dress – high heels, lots of makeup, pretty dresses, revealing tops. When these women turn up for an appointment they quite rightly expect medical advice, NOT criticism of their dress sense – as happened to a fiend of mine, who, when she arrived wearing jeans, a pale blue sweater and her hair tied back in a pony tail she was told by an endocrinologist that if she wanted to be approved for hormone therapy she must “try hander” to look “feminine”.

    • Kara Connor

      Well put, James. Thank you.

  • Rachael Warlond

    The fact is, is that most transsexual women simply wish to blend into society and just live a “normal” life alongside cisgendered women. Most are not activists and the like. I am certainly not an activist at any level and in fact every one of my friends who I see on a regular basis are cisgendered men and women. It’s when I see people, any people or person, making hateful/hurtful statements that I will get involved and that involvement usually only goes so far as to explain who and why we are. Julie Burchill’s description of transsexual women saying that we are “big white blokes who have cut their cocks off” certainly got my attention as it represents total hatred, bigotry and ignorance of who we really are. And who are we? We are women who were born with a birth defect which gave us, either partially or totally, the outward appearance of a male. As has been stated many times, what a person has between their legs does not necessarily define gender. It’s what we have between our ears which is the real organ that defines gender. Nor is our journey of transitioning from M2F got anything to do with sex or gender roles.It is our outward perception of appearing as a male which is the total reason for us to transition, and in fact, it becomes a need, to change our gender. Realistically and personally, I’ve never been so happy since transitioning and now I live, work and play just like any cisgendered woman would – I’m finally who I should have born as, or at least as close as I can possibly be to how I should have been born in the first place.
    So a little respect and understanding please for who a real transsexual woman is.
    A pic which certainly isn’t anything near a “big white bloke who has had their cock cut off”.

    • Natasha

      Exactly. I wouldn’t bother with this crap from Burchill normally either, but I have a few idle days to fill up and so I thought I’d help out dismantling the TERF rhetoric…

    • Serkan M

      Very well said. All that matters is that your not hurting anyone and that your happy. Be yourself and live life. Stay strong.

  • Dana Taylor

    While it is mostly men who beat, rape and murder trans women it is transmisogyny that is the root of the problem. Transmisogyny being acceptable contributes to our deaths. But then there are direct deaths caused by radical feminists. Ask Janice Raymond how much blood she has on her hands for helping remove trans health care? The conservative estimate is about 50,000 trans deaths. http://aebrain.blogspot.com/2013/03/50000-deaths.html These numbers also include trans men so transphobia is also at play here. Transphobia and transmisogyny should NEVER be acceptable.

    • Kara Connor

      Absolutely, Dana. I’ve read the statistic that we “12 times more likely to be murdered” and believe it to be credible. I’d be interested if anyone has a primary source for that figure.

  • Katie Donovan

    Say what you want to about me, you pathetic loser. I’m height/weight
    proportionate. Why don’t you take some of that hot air and use it on the
    treadmill….It would do EVERYONE some good. You want a better-looking body? Good; PUT DOWN THE FORK and heave your bulk onto a StairMaster!

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Hi Katie, attacks on Julie Burchill’s appearance are offensive. Plus, they are counterproductive. Cue Julie Burchill’s supporters sticking up for her! Tell me why she’s wrong to say what she did here and I’ll applaud you.

      • Katie Donovan

        The moment she started slinging mud at me, she lost any and all right to be treated respectfully. Ergo, she is just a fat cow who is jealous of my sisters and I. The cow actually associated trannies with bed-wetting! Obvious fat troll. I don’t have to justify or explain anything to you. Defend her reprehensible behaviour all you want: you’re still siding with a transphobic troll who is so desperate for attention she would cover her nasty fat body in Hershey’s and mashmallows if she thought it might get a look. Who cares about constructive here? I live this life every day. Not a day goes by when I don’t hear, “faggot!” or some such shouted out a car window, or someone throws something at me, or cops don’t arrest me so they can point at my naked male body and laugh……I’ve been raped, beaten, robbed and run-over several times for the egregious crime of daring to exist. People have actually ripped my clothes off in public. Where were MY defenders? So when someone like this fat jealous cow vomits her hate into the public space, which contributes to the attitudes which drive the hate I encounter on a daily basis, both she AND you can suck my tranny cock.

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          Read my comments on here, Katie before you say I am defending her. READ MY COMMENTS. She is a vile, transphobic cis female. I am not defending her behaviour here. All I was saying is that, if you don’t concentrate on her behaviour, those who do support (i.e. NOT ME) will attack you for making personal comments. As I completely accept you as a woman, I’ll pass on your invitation if that’s OK?

          • Katie Donovan

            I did read your comment. You essentially accused me of perpetuating the problem by calling her fat. I am a human being. I am FILLED with rage at all the THOUSANDS of people who have assaulted me and the people who defend them. I am not a violent person, but that has not protected me from violence. I am under no obligation to be peaceful or read your other comments. I addressed the one comment you made to me. While I do appreciate your more diplomatic stance with regard to this issue, and see it as well-intentioned, I am fed-up with tollerance to transphobes. Screw ‘em! There are some situations where the time for reasoned debate is long passed. This is one of those times.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            I am not a transphobe and I am not tolerant of transphobics. You are under no obligation to read my other comments but DO NOT ACCUSE ME OF SUPPORTING TRANSPHOBES. And this is me, standing up for myself.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And here I am again, guess what exposing and opposing transphobia. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9141292/dont-you-dare-tell-me-to-check-my-privilege/

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            And again, exposing and opposing transphobia. If I can’t convince you of my motives, why have I been spending hours and hours doing this. http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9146771/i-welcome-your-hatred/

        • Piquette

          If I had the power, I’d be the first to throw your rapists, including those homophobic police officers, in prison.

          But this …

          “So when someone like this fat jealous cow vomits her hate into the public space, which contributes to the attitudes which drive the hate I encounter on a daily basis, both she AND you can suck my tranny cock.”

          … just proves what a woman-hating macho man you are.

          • Trans Fan and Proud

            “Transphobic police officers”. But this…..when people like Julie Burchill question the very validity of someone’s way of being in the press, I wonder why people are surprised that it generates anger. When transgender people already deal with the sort of s**t that Katie mentions, why are you surprised if they are furious at the derogatory and offensive language that Julie Burchill uses? That proves, in Katie’s case, that she is an angry and offended MTF trans woman returning the offence.

          • danah gaz

            > … just proves what a woman-hating macho man you are.

            Way to challenge those gender stereotypes!

          • Piquette

            Meh. I don’t make the stereotypes. Boys learn to talk about their cocks in a way that asserts dominance over females, or others they regard as lesser, by the time they’re in junior high or even before. When I see evidence of typical male socialization, of learning to sexualize of violence, I can name it.

            Far as I’m concerned, the only person who can get away with saying “suck my dick” AND challenge gender stereotypes at the same time, is Julianne Moore.

          • Piquette

            What’s up, PinkNews moderators? I can’t directly quote what Katie Donovan said, but’s it’s a-okay for Katie to actually say it and mean it?

          • danah gaz

            I can’t speak for the pink news moderators.

            What I can tell you is that there are ways to call her out for the things she said without undermining your gender-critical position that you claim to support.

            If reifying gender hurts women, then perpetuating gender stereotypes hurts women. And if perpetuating gender stereotypes hurts women than claiming what someone writes makes them “a macho man” or “girly girl” or whatever is tacitly buying into the system you claim to loathe. What makes it particularly egregious in your case, is that it’s the primarily rationale for your anti-trans bigotry – and yet you’re willing to cast away even that cheap veneer when it suits you.

          • Piquette

            That’s exactly the charge I was responding to. Here’s my deleted comment, this time with the offending words blotted out:

            Meh. I don’t make the stereotypes. Boys learn to talk about their c***s in a way that asserts dominance over females, or others they regard as lesser, by the time they’re in junior high or even before. When I see evidence of typical male socialization, of learning to sexualize violence, I can name it.

            Far as I’m concerned, the only person who can get away with saying “suck my d***” AND challenge gender stereotypes at the same time, is Julianne Moore.

          • danah gaz

            I share your distaste for what Katie Donovan said, but you just return fire and make a similar mistake, for the reasons I stated.

            If you don’t want to reify gender, why would you immediately frame your response in such a categorically gender affirming way?

            Isn’t it enough to say “your post is filled with sexually violent imagery and that’s disgusting?”

            The reason I responded to *you* about this, is because if challenging gender is indeed a core value of yours, why would you violate it so readily? Even for rhetoric, and why is it that I see so many trans exclusionary radfems do the same thing when speaking to trans people? It strikes me as two different standards. Gender-critical except when it comes to calling out trans women for “male behavior” (wtf is that anyway?)

            I’m also curious why you think Julianne Moore has exclusive license to say “suck my [coq]” and presumably the rest of the cis women I know who use it don’t? Even my friend with the tattoo of the same?

      • Piquette

        Yes. I would also add that the attacks on Burchill, and other feminists who share her politics, are also blatantly ageist (against older people, that is, although many gender-critical feminists are actually daughters and granddaughters of second-wavers). But, frankly, I’ve grown weary of defending her against misogynistic, lookist and ageist attacks. Because, for me, these attacks speak for themselves and reveal the attackers for what they really are.

        I’ve no doubt that when you defend trans women, Trans Fan, you sincerely believe that you are defending women per se. We fundamentally disagree about that, and won’t find a resolution any time soon–if ever.

        But, I do have the slightest hope that, over time, and with some distance from your cause, you will finally take notice of the deep-seated misogyny that runs through trans-activism and individual MTFs. It is there. Consistently. There are exceptions, of course, but they prove the rule. It is there because it is consistent with trans politics.

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          You’re right to say we disagree, Piquette. When I defend trans women, I defend women. When I defend cis women, I defend women. One difference is that I appreciate where the rage of some trans women comes from, the life that Katie describes is enough to make anyone rage. You talk about trans activism as if it has one voice. It doesn’t. Any more than feminism has one voice. Misogyny is no more part of trans politics than transmisogyny is part of feminist politics. So I am a non-misogynist trans ally and a non-transphobic feminist. I can, and will, live with that.

      • Kara Connor

        Agreed, TFAP. Let’s not fall into the trap of body-shaming. Burchill’s views are repugnant, and valid targets for verbal rebuttal, but her appearance is not.

        • danah_

          …..

        • Katie Donovan

          Yes, it is. Especially when her appearance is the most likely cause of her attitude.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    And now you have to fall back on sarcasm. Says it all really so I needn’t comment any further.

  • Serkan M

    What on earth has it got to do with this woman whether you call yourself a male, female, androgynous, a dog, whatever? I don’t get it?

    Let people be. Why the insults?????? Since when did it become acceptable to throw trans insults with malicious intent? She should know better.

    If I’m really honest, it just sounds like she’s a little jealous of trans people stealing her limelight (or men for that matter). I just don’t get it.

    • Kara Connor

      I think when your “journalism” career is moribund and your views largely irrelevant as is the case with Julie Burchill, it is a common tactic to attack a group who are already the subject of power imbalance, and say something mendacious and insulting to try to grab attention. She’s like the Westboro Baptist Church insofar as it is always questionable whether to respond to her because that gives the oxygen of publicity to her scientifically and medically incorrect views.

  • DarlieB

    Burchill hasn’t had her cock cut off yet. She wears it on her forehead!

  • danah gaz

    Julie

    First, fvck you for your continued erasure of people of color. It’s a pattern with you, and it proves just how badly you need to stop ignoring feminists of other ethnicity than yours, and start understanding intersectionality. Yesterday.

    Furthermore, you can call me whatever you like. I don’t care. I know it must pain you to acknowledge this, but barely anyone knows who you are, and of those that do, most people don’t like you. Every time you call me and women like me men, less people will take you seriously. How does it feel to be a washed up, fossilized bigot?

    Finally, how sad is it that I’m a far prettier”bloke” than you are a woman? You want to body police? Fine. Lets:

    PS: Someone needs to teach you to use lipstick. You look like a homeless old queen.

    • Piquette

      Your narcissism and immaturity is showing, danah. But one day you, too, will be applying lipstick to your middle-age lips.

      • danah gaz

        I’m staring down middle age already, and even if I looked like her I won’t be matching my colors like a 6 y/o girl. LOL

        Look, a TERF bigot is calling *me* narcissistic. How utterly adorable. =)

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    “Want to be a woman? You’re in

    Here’s an idea, not mine, and not a new one. If you want to be a woman, you’re
    in. If you feel or know you are a woman even if the majority of the world
    claims you’re not, you’re in. Born with the reproductive organs of a woman?
    You’re a woman. Trans women, who struggle for the right to be recognised and
    fight against some of the highest instances of violence, depression and
    suicide in the world? Are women no less “real” than me. As John le
    Carré so astutely put it in Smiley’s People: “Society is an
    association of minorities.”

    The concept of woman is not narrow and fragile, it is robust and will take all
    comers. Its borders do not need policing. It does not threaten me, lessen
    me, or lessen anyone’s womanhood, to acknowledge other women and to hear
    their lived experience. Let’s stop this “real women” rubbish
    before it lives to poison yet another generation of writers and journalists
    – because that way of thinking is very much last century.

    Burchill comes close to admitting as much when she says of herself and her
    mates that “many of us are now staring HRT and the menopause straight
    in the face”. Getting older is a blessing – but no excuse to leave your
    thinking in the 70s. You’re not a hip young gunslinger anymore. There are
    new sheriffs in town. That’s life.”

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/9800041/We-dont-need-Suzanne-Moore-and-Julie-Burchill-to-police-the-borders-of-womanhood.html

  • TruthHurts

    Every single word Julie Burchill wrote on this subject is the absolute truth, no matter how much you guys delude yourselves otherwise.

    • danah gaz

      Shorter troll: “It’s TROOF BECAUSE I SAY IT IS – EVEN THO JB DOESN’T EVEN THINK SO. TROOF – TROOF!!11!1one!!!”

    • Kara Connor

      Actually ignorance hurts, which implies you must be in agony.

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    Every single word Julie Burchill wrote on this subject is pure lies, no matter how much you guys and gals delude yourselves otherwise.

    • TruthHurts

      calm down man

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Cis woman actually, some of us can be inclusive without feeling threatened.

      • danah gaz

        Liz was born with an innie, you prat.

        • Trans Fan and Proud

          Still got it! ;)

  • danah gaz

    stop it.

    • uh oh

      Cutting their dicks off was probably more of a contributory factor

      • danah gaz

        says part of the problem

      • Kara Connor

        You don’t even know enough to hurl a decent insult. Do some research, then see if you can manage a factually accurate attempt. It’s really rather pathetic to be so ignorant that you can’t even insult your intended target properly.

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Yeah – what Kara and Danah said.

    • http://transadvocate.com/ Dana Taylor

      So powerful and so true. Hope you don’t mind but I shared this photo along with this link. http://www.thefword.org.uk/blog/2014/03/who_your_friend

      • Trans Fan and Proud

        Great post, Dana. Transphobia is a deal breaker for me where Julie Burchill is concerned.

      • danah gaz

        i don’t mind, but I also don’t know who to credit it to. It came to me through the ether.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Powerful post, Danah. Thought earlier when I saw it that it should go here!

  • p

    This comment page is just nasty the whole article is horrid, and the main protagonists involved in the article just repugnant. Burchill is odious & Paris Lees is just as reprehensible in what she has wrote and is just as culpable as Burchill is blameworthy. The whole spat is just hideous and obnoxious and some of the posters on here are just so immature and offensive on both sides of the argument.

    • Trans Fan and Proud

      Some of us have been striving not to be offensive, p.

      • Natasha

        And I hope some of us have succeeded too!

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    “Therefore, while it’s less likely trans* people will contribute
    significantly to the emotional wellbeing of cisgender people in general,
    it is inevitable that people who are not trans*, being such an
    overwhelming majority, will significantly contribute to the wellbeing of
    trans* people, in much the same way heterosexual people have a
    disproportionate impact on LGB people, and able bodied people impact
    disabled people.”

    http://feministchallengingtransphobia.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/empathy-a-revolutionary-act/

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    “It’s the 21st Century. Some people are born into a gender
    they don’t identify with. Get over it. Julie Burchill is a dinosaur, a
    fossil, and I hope she crawls back under whatever rock she came from.”

    http://thethirdestate.net/2013

  • Trans Fan and Proud

    Transphobia

    “As mentioned, Stonewall’s own booklet “Transgender” provides an itemized definition:

    the belief that trans women are not “real women” because they have been raised and socialised as men

    the belief that trans men are not “real men” because they do not have, or were not born with a penis

    the belief that transsexual people are actually gay people in denial
    the assumption that transgender people are “sick” or that they are psychologically unstable

    whena transgender person is excluded from services, activities, discussions
    or decisions because it is felt that that person doesn’t “fit in”

    the refusal to recognise or acknowledge the true gender of a trans person
    and the continual insistence to refer to them by their former name

    Julie Burchill’s writing = transphobia
    Read more at http://www.bilerico.com/2008/11/julie_bindel_and_the_trans_vs_feminism_t.php#GgWtBqm20dJidHUs.99

    • Natasha

      Prescient, especially given that even Stonewall UK still bills itself as “the lesbian, gay and bisexual charity” – no specific trans inclusion – despite years of trans lobbying for explicit trans inclusion by Stonewall UK; staff privately admitting to, for example GScene editor James Ledward, that Stonewall should explicitly include trans but are fearful of speaking out for fear of internal reprisals; and private conversations I have had with Michael Cashman Stonewall UK founder himself at a Labour Conference, and during a trans discrimination tribunal case he wrote in favour of the trans claimant, that Stonewall should explicitly include trans, and of course the fact that the original Stonewall was a place where gender queers hung too. Yet despite all this implicit trans exclusion by Stonewall, it still manages to find Burchill transphobic… how ironic !

    • Natasha

      Trans
      folk, whether you like it or not, have been a significant part of LGBT
      equality from the get-go. This transphobic cis-washing of queer history
      has to end. The self-directed communal shame is, at this point, just sad
      and it must to stop. – See more at:
      http://www.transadvocate.com/so-what-was-stonewall_n_8424.htm#sthash.F1JiP5FJ.dpufStonewall history “Martin Duberman published the first history of Stonewall in 1993. His history significantly featured trans folk…. Trans folk, whether you like it or not, have been a significant part of LGBT equality from the get-go. This transphobic cis-washing of queer history has to end. The self-directed communal shame is, at this point, just sad and it must to stop.”
      http://www.transadvocate.com/so-what-was-stonewall_n_8424.htm

      Trans
      folk, whether you like it or not, have been a significant part of LGBT
      equality from the get-go. This transphobic cis-washing of queer history
      has to end. The self-directed communal shame is, at this point, just sad
      and it must to stop. – See more at:
      http://www.transadvocate.com/so-what-was-stonewall_n_8424.htm#sthash.F1JiP5FJ.dpuf
      Trans
      folk, whether you like it or not, have been a significant part of LGBT
      equality from the get-go. This transphobic cis-washing of queer history
      has to end. The self-directed communal shame is, at this point, just sad
      and it must to stop. – See more at:
      http://www.transadvocate.com/so-what-was-stonewall_n_8424.htm#sthash.F1JiP5FJ.dpuf
      Trans
      folk, whether you like it or not, have been a significant part of LGBT
      equality from the get-go. This transphobic cis-washing of queer history
      has to end. The self-directed communal shame is, at this point, just sad
      and it must to stop. – See more at:
      http://www.transadvocate.com/so-what-was-stonewall_n_8424.htm#sthash.F1JiP5FJ.dpuf
      Trans
      folk, whether you like it or not, have been a significant part of LGBT
      equality from the get-go. This transphobic cis-washing of queer history
      has to end. The self-directed communal shame is, at this point, just sad
      and it must to stop. – See more at:
      http://www.transadvocate.com/so-what-was-stonewall_n_8424.htm#sthash.F1JiP5FJ.dpuf

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