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Pope Francis: ‘Matrimony is between a man and a woman’

  • @Mike-uk2011

    ‘Matrimony is between a man and a woman.’ Says the elderly virgin who’s never dated anyone of either gender. Yeah I’ll take orders on my relationship status from him.

    • doug

      An elderly old queen may be a better description. If Keith O’Brien is any example, Francis has probably had more sex than hot dinners.

      • Rumbelow

        Exactly, what it says on the package does not always describe the contents accurately at all and as you point out, Keith O’Brien is the perfect illustration of a privately, predatory, sleaze-bag clergyman who was hypocritically posturing as a public moraliser.

      • @Mike-uk2011

        That might well be true, but I chose to word it by the official position and teachings of the RC church, rather than an assumption that Francis is an hypocrite -although that wouldn’t surprise me either.
        Plus I think the point sounds even more incredulous coming from an “elderly virgin”, than a “queen”.

        • doug

          Hypocrisy is the name of the game with that shower.

      • Jesus_Mohammed

        Speaking of Keith O’Brien, are you aware of the recent indication in the Guardian that Keith O’Brien may have gone to have his confession heard by one (or more) of the priests whom he had previously abused?

        In other words, there is a possibility that the slime-ball slithered into a confessional in which sat one of the priests he had sexually abused, and that the slime-ball then confessed his sin to the actual person he had abused, who was then, of course, forced to grant him “holy” “absolution”, i.e. FORCED to forgive him! (Priests must dispense “absolution” in the confessional.)

        The matter has been passed to the Vatican and IF it is investigated and IF O’Brien is found guilty of the above then under Canon Law he would have to be EXCOMMUNICATED.

        However, I expect pope Francis and his lackeys will not wish for such an action to occur as it would only add to the stink that currently hangs around that cesspool of delusion which is the “holy” Catholic church.

        This matter is dynamite but tricky because of “the seal of the confessional”. No priest may ever disclose what has been confessed him in the confessional. To do so is to commit a serious offence. (It’s one of the ways the church protects itself. Sins are kept secret.) Hence the Vatican has not been TOLD that O’Brien abused the confessional, but rather the Vatican has been exhorted to investigate WHETHER O’Brien MAY have abused the confessional.

        To force a victim to forgive you in this way equates to an act of psychological cruelty. And of course Catholic clergy are expert at psychological cruelty.

        • doug

          Apparently, allegations are now also being made that he bought one of his priestly tea-baggers a jet-ski costing £9,000 from church funds, i.e. charity funds.

        • sJames6621

          this reminds me of an even more horrible story – a priest got a nun pregnant by rape, she had a botched abortion and then he did the funeral service. this was in africa where the muslms probably cheered

          Amazing what goes on.

  • http://twitter.com/mattfreshfield Matt

    I’m sick of these people trying to stand in the way of equality. How dare he stand in judgement over our innate sexuality. It’s none of his business. Get this vicious superstition out of politics.

  • GulliverUK

    Yes, well, that’s not true is it.

    1. the state or condition of being married
    2. the ceremony or sacrament of marriage

    Marriage is a social construct, the oldest surviving marriage law is the Code of Hammurabi, dating back to 1772 BC (long before Jewish Torah, or the invention of Christianity). Religious language doesn’t even feature in it.

    Civil law is the only law which matters – religious law is irrelevant, what rules they have is up to them, within reason – it has no legal basis for society. Marriage include divorce – which the Catholic church doesn’t recognise, whilst the Church of England is wishy washy on it. Some churches marry gay couples, some churches or individual priests married divorced people. When religious groups carry out ‘marriages’, the part which matters, the legal part, is them acting as an extension of the state – to save their followers the bother of going to a registry office. But not all religions have those powers. Muslims, as far as I know, must go to a registry office before their ceremony. Some Muslims aren’t even legally married because they didn’t actually go to a registry office. This leaves the women in legal peril, but some Muslim men do this because they have more than one wife (not legally).

    I think the Pope is talking about “sacrament”, and their peculiarly rigid dogmatic type of “sacrament”, as opposed to, say, the CoE version. Whichever way, to most of us, it’s meaningless. They have all sorts of rules on who they will and won’t marry, so a Rabbi won’t marry a Muslim couple, and an Imam won’t marry a Christian and Muslim, etc. It’s just incredibly … tribal thinking. Notice too that in many geographical places followers are almost all White, or Black, showing the racist element to religious tribalism.

    It’s great that more and more religions are waking up to the fact that as religion winds down and is replaced by Secular Humanism (the true salvation), or spirituality or atheism, that they are at last tackling their own entrenched homophobia, coming to a new realisation of their past crimes, and changing. But frankly what’s the point? I mean, what really is the point? They’re winding down now that the information age has providing people everywhere with almost unlimited information and opinion, and where restrictive laws have been replaced with tolerance or even acceptance. The breakdown of religion is their own fault, the world changed, and they took too long is notice. The Pope is a man of a certain age and he will find it too difficult to catch up fast enough, and there are too many people in the Vatican who are pulling him in a very socially conservative direction. Can he break free? Will he actually listen to all the followers telling him they don’t agree with church teachings. Isn’t it the ultimate snub – they do to church but don’t believe in half of what the church tells them. Sorry, needed to get that off my chest.

    • Richard Jones

      Good to get it off your chest. I agree with your points about marriage as a social construct. All our life is a social construct, but some view it through a theological lens, some don’t.

      The point I want to make is that Christians should believe (I say should because not all do) that Jesus, the unwitting founder of our religion (he was a Jew and wanted to wake the Jews up to what their religion should mean for them), wanted to break down exactly the tribal barriers you talk about: discrimination against his society’s outsiders, the people who were marginalised on the edge of Jewish society because the religious elite deemed them beyond the pale.

      If I may pursue the point, Jesus was pretty intolerant of people whom he saw as getting in the way of God’s plans for his creation. But he never said a word about sexuality.

      I am a priest in the Church of England and I believe that God’s love is bigger than any of us can imagine. What that means for those who don’t believe in God is that you shouldn’t write him off, even if the church (in whatever denomination) doesn’t always keep to the standard that Jesus set.

      With love to whoever reads this
      Richard

  • D.McCabe

    How nice of him to say that he may accept Civil Partnerships.

    I do not need him or his ilk to accept me.

    Marriage is about love for those who are entering into it, regardless of their sexuality. It is not about procreation.

    Religion is doing way more harm than good in this world and the sooner organised religion is abolished the better the whole world will be.

    • Latesleeperz

      It is nice of him to say that indeed.
      It may not matter to people like yourself, but it matters to highly religious population out there who will pretty much support whatever the Pope stands for.
      And if it gets the message across…if we can somehow manage to create equality in this world where there’s no discrimination, no matter how little baby steps we’re taking, then people like myself will appreciate it very, very much.

      • Truth

        ” ….but it matters to highly religious population out there”. Is this the same ‘highly religious population’ which ignores all the church’s other rulings on contraception, divorce, etc? Seems to me The Vatican either sets the agenda for catholic followers .. or it doesn’t. Surely, you can’t be a fair-weather believer …?

  • GulliverUK

    Sorry, the other thing is, what is a family? Is it the strict dogmatic version Catholic Bishops Conference espouse? The man and women with biological related children? What should the age difference be, between the man and women? Joseph has a very old man when he was “given”, as a gift, Mary, whom he apparently married whilst she was still a child. When Jesus was born (let’s assume he did actually exist) he was living in a family that was mixed. Joseph’s children were from his previous marriage (his wife died) so Mary wasn’t James’s mother (James was Joseph’s son, Jesus’s half brother). And according to the ‘story’ Joseph wasn’t Jesus’s dad – actually he played both roles, Jesus was also his own dad, God !! Cool :)

  • That There Other David

    What he fails to understand is that Marriage and Holy Matrimony do not necessarily need to be the same thing. Let the churches use the term Holy Matrimony for their “look at us, we’re so special” definition if they want. Marriage, meanwhile, will be opened to all consenting adult partnerships, as it needs to be to ensure legal equality for all citizens.

    • Rumbelow

      Yes, “We are Holy Matrimonialised” rolls as easily off the tongue as, “We are Civil Partnered” always did, let them have a taste of the medicine they want to dish out to others if they intend to keep an exclusive preserve just for themselves.

  • Robert W. Pierce

    The Catholic Church has no authority to judge, let alone say who can and cannot marry in a civil ceremony given its appalling track record of sexual abuse for almost two millennia. People think that’s a recent phenomenon, it isn’t. The gall of this Pope presiding over an organisation responsible for sexual repression of its clergy, hundreds of thousands if not millions of people abused, lives shattered, destroyed even, while he upholds the abnormal aberration that is celibacy. The Roman Catholic Church is morally bankrupt in my view.

    • Jesus_Mohammed

      You may like to see my posting higher up regarding latest “revelation” concerning Keith O’Brien.

  • Rumbelow

    The Catholic church should just train up a big noisy macaw parrot to keep squawking out that same slogan of exclusion again and again, they don’t need a man acting as a pope to deliver that line.
    Squawk! Matrimony is between a man and a woman! Squawk! Squawk!
    Squawk! Squawk! Matrimony is between a man and a woman! Squawk!

  • Roku

    Except for the many countries across the world where its between two unrelated adults of either gender.

  • Wim in Holland

    Pope Francis has nothing to do with civil partnerships

  • PaulHalsall

    As a gay Roman Catholic, I think this is a great advance in papal thinking.

    • That There Other David

      Yeah, he’s certainly dragging the church kicking and screaming forward into the 18th century.

      • PaulHalsall

        We introduced civil unions only recently in the UK.

        Many of the comments here are irrational and fairly bigotted.

        • Truth

          Sorry, Paul … but how can you support an organisation which has, for centuries, persistently persecuted gay people? Why do you feel the need to seek the ‘approval’ of these self-appointed moral guardians? I can only imagine it’s because you were born into a catholic family – as I was. The obvious difference between us is that I saw through it all and subsequently found the strength to reject it.

          • PaulHalsall

            Not at all. I converted to Catholicism as an adult at the Edinburgh University Catholic Chaplaincy. The clergy there helped me recognise my homosexuality and urged me to come out.

            The Catholic Church in Scotland, or at least parts of it, hosted the first Gay discos in Edinburgh, and early editions of gay Scotland were printed up on a local parish’s estat machine.

          • Silly Old Bastard

            I’m an RC too. Well done.

          • Jesus_Mohammed

            You are, are you. Then I understand why you post under the name “Silly Old Bastard”.

          • Silly Old Bastard

            Your intensity is red hot. Hope it’s not harming you…

          • Jesus_Mohammed

            More obfuscation from you, Paul. Return to the subject: the ridiculous tenets of the catholic cult.

            How on earth can you accept the baloney? Are you a total hypocrite? Is that how you manage to stand there in front of the sanctuary, slosh down the communion wine and the host, and “believe” that the whole crateful of fictional nonsense?

          • PaulHalsall

            You are not an honest discussant, so I see no need to engage with you.

            You questions are really along the line of “How often do you beat your wife?”

            You make assertions, behind a veil of anonymity, that I simply disagree with. You are quite free to hold them, but you have nothing positive to say.

            As far as I am concerned the world shimmers with the Glory of God. And materialism, the only alternative to belief in spiritual reality, denies basic human experiences, such as love, appreciation of beauty, art, and music for example, and is intellectually a fairly weak position.

            It is possible to have a serious discussion with intellectual atheists about all this, but you are a vulgar little (anonymous) bomb thrower.

          • Silly Old Bastard

            Paul, these are Ernst Rhoem’s men. Understandable you don’t wish to engage.

          • saintlaw

            Girl, you are madder than a wig made of wasps.

          • saintlaw

            As if ‘materialism’ – by which, I assume, you mean natural selection – can not offer detailed and consistent explanations for the ‘basic human experiences’ you prate about.

            I believe in God, so it’s always depressing to read such puerile ‘reasoning’ as yours.

            Must try harder.

          • PaulHalsall

            I said nothing about evolution (which I accept), but I certainly don’t think that evolution accounts for all aspects of our lives. There is a spiritual side.

          • Harry

            It is not so much , Paul, the belief in God that gets on the nerves of many people here (though quite naturally religion has a low representation in the gay community considering the harm it has done to us), but the particular cult you have chosen. Authoritarian, ruthlessly bigotted against gay people etc. You have chosen as a gay person to join with a church that is fundamentally institutionally homophobic and has been at the forefront of campaigns against gay rights in most countries of the world. We are entitled to call you out on it for pure hypocrisy.

            And we are also entitled to call you out on your intellectual hypocrisy unless you follow the Church’s rules and are celibate.

            As to using public handles I for my part am perfectly happy to engage you in public. Post your twitter handle if you have one.

          • PaulHalsall

            There is no hypocrisy on my part. Catholicism has a “hierarchy of teachings”, and teaching on moral matters (such as slavery and the death penalty) often develop over time.

            And I have spent most of my lifetime as a Gay Activist, in Scotland, then London, and then New York – including protesting church policies.

            And, as the pope said recently, in somewhat different form, Who the fuck are you to judge me?

            I don’t use twitter much, but my ac is @pbhalsall

          • Serkan M

            Never engage with a religious individual…No matter what you say think or believe they will always have a book based on no evidence and a man you cannot see. You cannot win.

        • That There Other David

          Paul, the Catholic Church is a patriarchal and abusive organisation that has fought against women’s rights, LGBT rights, and both scientific evidence and progress. In Franco’s Spain and many other dictatorships it supported the oppression of millions, and it has accumulated vast wealth across the world whilst simultaneously indoctrinating others in a manner that keeps them in poverty.

          It is therefore PERFECTLY rational to view the Church with not only suspicion but outright contempt. The Church serves only itself, and it most certainly is NOT bigoted to criticise it for its many past and ongoing crimes.

          • PaulHalsall

            It’s odd, isn’t it, that I, a gay Roman Catholic (HIV+ as well btw) am prepared to post in my own name, while all of you hide behind fake names..

            I don’t say, btw, that the institutional Church is above criticism, but then neither are many of our LGBT organisations and charities.

          • Jesus_Mohammed

            Stick to the subject under discussion, Paul. Don’t grasp at straws.

            Now, as for your seeking to liken the catholic cult to LGBT organizations, really, how can you! LGBT organizations are generally composed of rational human beings who do not entertain mental delusions, i.e. professions in belief in your sky fairy or any other supernatural nonsense and gobbledegook!

        • Jesus_Mohammed

          Yes, Paul, how can you possibly belong to an organization that has over the centuries violently and viciously stamped out rival religions? Which has slaughtered, maimed, and killed people? But putting that record aside, how you can you belong to any group of people who profess belief in a great big pixie in the sky, a “holy” ghost (LOL), “hosts” of angels, dozens of devils, some imaginary hole called “Hell”, and so forth! Who pumped all such S**T into your head? Was it nuns?

          • PaulHalsall

            “Sky fairies” eh?

            Once again, unoriginal and bigotted.

    • Rumbelow

      Thankful for mercy drops from heaven, huh? I would hardly describe this as a great advance but rather as That There Other David describes it, reluctantly dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st Century.

  • Pet

    Reminder: this is the same guy who called to the “war of god” in Argentina when the law for marriage equality was about to be voted on.

  • Mark

    ‘Matrimony is between a man and a woman’. Sure. Except where it isn’t.

  • Truth

    Yes – it may well be in the eyes of YOUR organisation (although not where your representatives are concerned whom, as we know, do not marry anyone). But for non-believers and those of who live in the 21st century, a loving, State-sanctioned partnership (call it ‘marriage’ if you like) is absolutely no business of religious outfits. Religion hijacked ‘marriage’. It’s time for the people to claim it back and tell religious bodies, like yours, to butt out!

  • Jase

    Finally he shows his true colours. Nothing in the Vatican has changed. Stop drinking the punch people!

  • Mike Dalgarno

    I may not agree with what he is saying persay…but at least it’s a step forward.

    We can only hope that forward steps continue until full equality is actually given.

    • Jesus_Mohammed

      Really? We “can only hope” that this controller of millions of people’s minds can progress? Is that our only option?

      Sorry, I have better things to do than to care or bother or “hope” anything for that deluded fool in Rome and all his lackeys worldwide.

    • That There Other David

      Personally I’d rather hope that the influence of the Catholic Church and other medieval hangover cults continues to decline until nobody even notices when the “Pope” opens his mouth, not even people in the same room.

  • bob

    Shut up you old fart. Religion is not the organizing principle of our society anymore.

  • Helge V.Tiller

    HE HAS NOT CHANGED AT ALL !

  • Helge V.Tiller

    The day a pope or a priest say, loud and clear, that having sex with a person of the same gender is OK. That is the day they have changed. Not a second before. They look down on us . Like they have done for generations- for HUNDREDS of years!
    Tired of religion ? YES – YES -YES !

  • Jesus_Mohammed

    When a person has “hinted that he could eventually accept the principle of civil partnerships” he’s basically admitting to the world that he’s sociologically deficient. He may as well have said, “I suffer from intense bigotry and prejudices. It’s going to take me a long time to give homosexual people dignity and respect”.

  • Georg Friedrich

    May see, how consequent and strong the Vatican and Italian Catholic Church will stand with his “revolutionary” position on gay unions in the practice. The very first test will be already later this year, when Italian parliament will discuss an same-sex partnership bill, proposed by new Renzi government. I personally have here some very strong doubts …

  • Jones

    Religious leaders are a barrier for equality.

  • Silly Old Bastard

    He’s right, it is between a man and a woman. It’s only LGBT extremists who think otherwise, and there aren’t many of them around. All this nonsense just brings scorn on LGBT. That’s all extremists do anywhere, bring unwelcome attention to the rest of us. They are never satisfied, never will be. There will always be something else to go bitter over.

    • That There Other David

      You appear to be living in the world as it was 20 years ago. There are now 17 countries that have extended marriage to same-sex couples in either all or part of their territory, and there will be gradually more over the coming years.

      Including England and Wales, which will become country 18 at the end of this month :-)

      • Silly Old Bastard

        I just can’t see the necessity for it. it’s like dogma for dogma’s sake.

        • That There Other David

          I’m not going to even bother having that discussion with you. Both of our Parliaments had extensive debates and weighed up the reasons why, and both voted overwhelmingly to extend marriage to same-sex couples as a result. And our country was nowhere near being the first to come to exactly the same conclusion.

          So if you feel a bit icky about it, you go feel a bit icky. But you won’t stop more and more countries allowing their gay couples to marry. Neither will that ridiculous shaman in the Vatican.

          • Silly Old Bastard

            I abhor violence. Always have. I’ve also witnessed disgusting homophobia from youth, though thankfully as a bystander. I fear that hunting down lads leaving gay venues is going to become a sport. Because of this gay stand.

          • saintlaw

            Yes, that’s right. Gays being bashed isn’t the fault of the bigots that attack them, but because of gays.

            You obtuse buttock.

          • That There Other David

            Nonsense. A couple of months after same-sex marriages start it’ll no longer be news and everyone will carry on exactly as they did before. Two years down the line and ever hyper-religious types will have stopped mentioning it.

      • Rumbelow

        There’s a good reason why former Lord Haw Haw changed his name to S.O.B. and you see it written here.

    • Mark

      Certainly in every country I know of men and women get married – some men to more than one woman in a few countries; but in addition, in some countries marriage is between people of the same gender, and this number of countries is increasingly quite rapidly now. Why do you find this so hard to understand? Furthermore, just because something is – or has always been – the case, does not entail that it must remain so. An ‘Is’ does not an entail an ‘Ought’, as David Hume pointed out….As for ‘extremists’, wasn’t a certain Nazarene – who overturned money-changers’ tables – crucified for being one of those?….But you must live in an odd world if in it people who just want equality with everyone else are viewed as ‘extremists’….Were the suffragettes ‘extremists’? Slavery Abolitionists?…

      • Silly Old Bastard

        It goes against nature. Nature provides for the next generation. Nature has also provided for gays. I don’t know the answer but aping the first is not it.

        • That There Other David

          That’s the tired old marriage is for children argument, which has been repeatedly dismissed in every parliament, legislature or courtroom that has hosted a debate or ruling on this issue.

    • saintlaw

      If you took your head out of the snug confines of your rectum for more than a moment you’d see that increasingly, across the world, it isn’t just between a man and a woman.

      “There will always be something else to go bitter over.”

      But do you have to make such an exhibit of it?

  • Silly Old Bastard

    Lots of keyboard warriors having a go at the church then. But who is it that
    beats and kills gay men. That’s right, homophobic atheists.

    • Christopher in Canada

      Believe whatever crap you choose. All I know is, somewhere there is a Monopoly board waiting for you to pass “Go”.

      • Silly Old Bastard

        You’re my first lumberjack.

    • Rumbelow

      Get away!

      • Silly Old Bastard

        you’d better believe it, Buzz Lightyear

    • Jesus_Mohammed

      Have you not taken your evening medication, Silly Old Bastard?

      • Silly Old Bastard

        Well done, J-M. That’s the funniest quip I’ve seen in a long time.

        • saintlaw

          Oh, I get it. This is what you do instead of sex.

    • Serkan M

      So have you visited these men and completed a survey have you? Well done! I suggest you forward this to the British institute of psychiatry!

      • Silly Old Bastard

        I would, but they’re too busy trying to understand ‘polls’ that have 90% of everyone in favour of SSM.

    • saintlaw

      You really are the most stupid person on the internet.

    • crozzy2211

      “But who is it that beats and kills gay men”. Homophobic people who either believe in God or say they do. The Government of Uganda, Nigeria, Sierra leone, Russia, to name just a few.

  • Traveller_23

    No single religion has the right to dictate what matrimony is or isn’t! If you want to operate within such a narrow definition of marriage for yourself go ahead, but don’t impose this on others.

    • Nehaaldon

      I agree with you, every religion has there own norms regarding marriage.

  • Perton

    Matrimony is between a man and a woman. Then go touch a boy afterwards. P

  • sJames6621

    Matrimny is the proper term for church marriages. I wonder if he is signalling a change in the churches position. Dont hold your breath, keep up the pressure but perhaps not in the far future the church will say its ok with gays marrying under the law

  • Colin

    What I remember about coming out in Glasgow was going to a west end flat with a new mate to be met with 9 priests all having sex. Honestly I left instantly. Then my catholic background said no.
    Today I have no place in my heart or need for religion. Fantasists and controllers

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