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Pope Francis distributes surveys to Catholics on ‘modern questions’ including gay relationships

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  1. So it’s no longer following the word of their sky god – it’s more about what the majority of the deluded think – wow these people change the goal posts whenever they need to – what next god caused the Big Bang???

  2. Scenario: Pope has chat to Vatican Bankers

    Your holiness “Coffers declining at an unprecedented rate – People really don’t like what we’re saying, and unlike previous times are starting to take their money with them. If this continues we’re heading for bankruptcy.”

    Francis “Rightyho old chap. Leave it to me – I’ll run a poll to make it appear that we’re listening and seeing where the smart money is going. If it worked for the Bogias, I’m sure it’ll work for us.”

  3. The bible says nothing against gay people or homosexuality. Why this pope believes the bible is anti gay astounds me. he should know the bibles history from a-z. He should even know it more than me. Pagan sex rituals. That is all.

    1. That’s not true. The Bible is extremely clear in its condemnation of same sex acts. However, as we all know, it is extremely clear about other matters which are universally ignored. The church will never be able to effectively use scripture to condone same sex acts. It can just decide to turn a blind eye.
      I am sure most of us are deeply suspicious of the church but this survey is encouraging. The aptly named “flock” will follow any resulting edicts showing more compassion.

      1. Oh wow the comments here are us badly uneducated as a homophobic christian. Listen kids I will not dribble important info here because of character restrictions on pink news BUT I all recommend you visit http://www.gaychristian101.com. a wonderful self defense site for christians who are gay. Also I know you don’t want to hear this but even islam and the quran isn’t anti gay either. Bet ya didn’t see that coming ;)

    2. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Nov 2013, 12:40pm

      Unfortunately it does, Jess. The famous verse in Leviticus, the one that all religion based hate groups and some denominations use to vilify us and justify discrimination. There are several other references but not that many thankfully. Jesus Christ though never mentioned a word about it, in fact if my reading of the new testament is correct, he rejected much of the old testament. I’m not a Christian either.

      1. Every religious text has been rewritten at least ten times, by men in positions of power over a public who cannot read nor write.
        Each of them has been added to, things removed, rewritten to meet the needs of whoever is in power.

        All religious cults ignore this, but it is historical fact. It is done to bolster the obedience of the public and get what you want.

      2. The famous verse in Leviticus doesn’t apply to regular joe on the street. “Why no?” you ask? Because that entire section of Leviticus is a set of rules ONLY for the Priests of the Temple.

        Besides, if you follow that part, you also must stop eating bacon, lobster, clams, stop shaving, cutting your hair, never wear mixed fabric clothing, nor glasses when in church/temple.

        Other than the “famous verse in Leviticus”, there is not an other mention of homosexuality in the Bible that was not actually put there in more recent times via the medium of “bad translation” or WILFUL mistranslation.

        And therein lies the REAL issue: The use of text that is easily demonstrated to be purposeful mistranslation.

        I know most of PN’s posters are virulently anti-religion, but believe me when I tell you that there ARE denominations that refuse to accept these recent additions as part of their belief.

      3. George Broadhead 15 Nov 2013, 5:04pm

        Jesus supports the statement in Genesis that in the beginning God created
        humankind male and female, and uses this as a basis for ethical guidance:
        “That which God has joined” (i.e. the heterosexual married relationship)
        “let not man put asunder”.

        In the Sermon on the Mount, he stresses the importance of adhering strictly
        to the Mosaic Law – a law which required the death penalty for homosexual
        acts: “Do not suppose that I have come to abolish the Law and the prophets;
        I did not come to abolish, but to complete. I tell you this: so long as
        heaven and earth endure, not a letter, not a stroke, will disappear from the
        Law until all that must happen has happened. If any man therefore sets aside
        even the least of the Law’s demands, and teaches others to do the same, he
        will have the lowest place in the kingdom of Heaven.”

      4. The problem is that the meaning of many of words used has changed, and in particular the word usually translated as “abomination” has multiple interpretations. Furthermore, the earliest Hebrew versions of that verse contain a grammatical error which may suggest something has become confused. It’s unlikely anyone will ever know what was really meant, and anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant or is allowing their personal prejudices to cloud their judgement It may really be an prohibition on gay male sex, and to be honest I suspect that’s most likely. But one of the many other possible translation would be “As a man, you must not lie with another man in a woman’s bed: it is disrespectful”, which would have quite a different meaning.

      5. Frank Boulton 18 Nov 2013, 10:50am

        Unfortunately, Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13 are commonly taken to be condemnations of homosexuality. A literal interpretation of the Hebrew text of both of these verses is difficult to render in English. The original text is not clear about the sex of the participants and is not even clear as to whether one of them is even human. It is possible to construct a “reductio ad absurdum” of these two verses, because they literally condemn male homosexuality and female heterosexuality.

        Much of the Biblical condemnation of homosexuality is based on willful mistranslation. For example, all of the references in the KJV to “sodomites” are mistranslations of a Hebrew word referring to a “male cult prostitute.”

  4. And again they’re talking about sex. Why are they asking about what people think about other people having sex? Imagine a questionaire in church asking what everyone thought about the person to their left having sex. It’s absurd.

    1. Controlling something as basic as sexual activity is like controlling the supply of fresh water. It’s a way of gaining complete control over the masses, because everyone has this in common. If they focused instead on what people wear, or hair style (something that has been attempted in the past) there is no social division and no method of control.

      Hundreds of years ago they used these other things instead of sexuality, dictating what people should wear, what they should eat, their day to day actions. But this is not effective in turning your followers against others, and these cults need hatred of others to maintain control over their own idiots.

      It’s all about psychological manipulation of the masses, like Putin creating a hatred of a minority to maintain control over the majority. Lots of Humans need someone to attack to feel valid, give people a false sense of superiority over others and you can get them them to follow you into almost anything.

  5. If this is the same thing that I’ve read already some weeks ago, it could be fake since some people claimed it was. I myself doubt it is true.

  6. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Nov 2013, 12:44pm

    Interesting to read even Nichols is softening his tone. If more than 50% of British Catholics under 50 support equal marriage and Catholics in general in the more progressive countries do from what I’ve read, I wonder how much of an impact this will have on Vatican teaching or importantly, the Pope’s interpretation and how he will address it? If consensus reveals there is more support, he may not have any choice than to accept equal marriage as one of several modern day realities as more countries introduce it.

  7. This is a man that actually gets it. He understands that society is evolving and that his cult is outdated and losing support. He’s absolutely right that the cult will collapse like a house of cards unless they can catch up with modern attitudes and thinking.

    These religious organizations thrive on ignorance. Now that ignorance is in massive decline and people can educate themselves through the help of the internet, the cults no longer have a captive audience of open mouthed idiots to brainwash.

    A hundred years ago they could have walked into a village and blamed the recent crop failure on a the imagined “immoral attitudes” of the inhabitants, converting an entire population with ghost stories and cheap magic tricks, today they can’t do that.

    This is what caused the revolution in various Islamic states. They are more connected to the outside world.

    These cults have to become more modern and accept social evolution, or they will die. It’s really as simple as that.

  8. Regarding the proposed redefinition of civil marriage in Argentina, then-Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio wrote on June 22, 2010: “The Argentine people must face, in the next few weeks, a situation whose result may gravely harm the family. It is the bill on matrimony of persons of the same sex. The identity of the family, and its survival, are in jeopardy here: father, mother, and children. The life of so many children who will be discriminated beforehand due to the lack of human maturity that God willed them to have with a father and a mother is in jeopardy. At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts. … Let us not be naive: it is not a simple political struggle; it is an intention [which is] destructive of the plan of God. It is not a mere legislative project…, but rather a ‘move’ of the father of lies who wishes to confuse and deceive the children of God.”

    People can change, but so far Francis-Bergoglio has not apologized for what he said in 2010.

    1. George Broadhead 16 Nov 2013, 9:09am

      Well said Joseph!

    2. Actions speak louder than questionnaires. Does Pope Francis not realize how harmful and insulting his comments in 2010 were to the LGBT worldwide community?
      “Who am I to judge?” Really?

    3. Frank Boulton 18 Nov 2013, 11:02am

      I, too, agree with you, Joseph, but, of course, he can’t apologize, as he is now subject to the doctrine of papal infallibility.

  9. I notice that celibacy for priests is not listed as a point the Pope would like opinions on. I feel that the abuse of children by some Priests in the past and the recent scandal about inappropriate behaviour of a Bishop towards young Priests in training has to be something to do with the the rule of celibacy. It rarely occurs in other religions where vicars etc have a choice of whether to marry or not, it also gives them a understanding of family and marriage problems with their own experiences. Also feel uncomfortable about gay men being ordained even if they say they are not practising. The Bible says “Man shall not lie with man”. But the celibacy rule is a man made rule by the Church not the Bible.

    1. I agree with maintaing celibacy

    2. Frank Boulton 18 Nov 2013, 11:09am

      See my comment above on the two verse often quoted in English as “Man shall not lie with man…” The Hebrew text of these verses is far from clear. The words, which you quote, are merely a poor, man-made mistranslation. As an atheist, I do not accept them, and since they are a willful mistranslation, they are not the word of God. So, there is no reason for people of faith to live by them either.

  10. Would still like to know how they are being distributed.

    1. Through the Church to Parishioners

  11. Here we go: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20131105_iii-assemblea-sinodo-vescovi_en.html. They want to hear from you. It’s part III: questions. You should fill out a questionnaire and send it in,

  12. So, let me get this right. Throughout history, they’ve persecuted and killed ANYONE who refused to toe their line citing ‘god’s word’ as justification? Now, because of unprecedented desertion of ‘the faithful’, they’re considering amending the rule book? What a silly, childish, cynical, hypocritical outfit this is. The world is at last seeing through the con. Wherever secularism has broken out, in the main, so has harmony. I hope this survey is the final nail and that the whole vast machine will be extinct ‘ere long.

    1. George Broadhead 15 Nov 2013, 5:11pm

      “Wherever secularism has broken out, in the main, so has harmony. I hope this survey is the final nail and that the whole vast machine will be extinct ‘ere long.”

      You are quite right about secularism but, with its vast wealth and following, it seems very unlikely that the Catholic Church will ever become extinct.

      1. The Catholic church as over 2 billion follows rising every year, not counting the Protestant denominations. The Catholic church is here to stay.

        1. Frank Boulton 18 Nov 2013, 11:26am

          Well, Sebastian, the Catholic Church might be here to stay but your God certainly isn’t. In rewriting God’s will, you’re having to reinvent him all over again.

          Numbers and majorities make nothing right. They make nothing factually right and nothing ethically right. Before Galileo, everyone believed that the sun revolved around the earth. The fact that they were in the majority never mad the sun and earth change place. A majority voted for the Holocaust. Their numbers didn’t make it ethically acceptable. The “majority” argument is so easy to demolish.

  13. You don’t need a survey to know that the teachings of the Catholic Church are out of touch with society. The bigger issues is how you stop a section of their followers seeing issues such as homosexuality, abortion, contraception as a completely black and white issue and pull their focus away from sexualising these matters.

    I got into a number of discussions on twitter with some very bizarre Catholics who could not help but correlate the issues of SSM with incest, paedophelia and bestiality. One in particular who at the same time couldn’t see Cardinal O’Briens hypocrisy.

    That said I did come across one devout Catholic who has a lesbian daughter in a civil partnership. She has to be one of the most thoughtful and respectful people I have come across, yet for standing up for a thinking beyond the bigots and show empathy to those outside of Catholic teaching I have seen her become the recipient of a pretty nasty hate campaign.

    The Catholic church has some major issues.

  14. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Nov 2013, 4:13pm

    It’s going to be a very interesting result indeed. If it transpires that the majority of catholics worldwide accept these controversial reality issues and the Vatican does an u-turn, I can imagine the impact on the CoE to ‘get with the programme’.

  15. The survey itself is rather difficult to find on the web, maybe the priest will whisper the url next time one goes to confession? Such a pity as I did want to them them exactly what I think of the faith. So, in the space of 50 years the RC church has gone from telling people what to believe and do, to asking the faithful to tell them what it is that they ought to be telling them to believe and do. There’s a flaw in this concept, just believe and do what you want, the middle man (church) is redundant!

  16. George Brooadhead 15 Nov 2013, 5:26pm

    I thought this story broke at the beginning of November.

    Anyway, the precise wording of the Catechism (doctrinal position) which the Pope refers to is: ” Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

  17. George Broadhead 15 Nov 2013, 5:32pm

    I thought this story broke at the beginning of November.

    Anyway, the precise wording of the Catechism (doctrinal position) that the Pope refers to is:

    “Tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.”

  18. James Campbell 15 Nov 2013, 9:25pm

    “we must work to follow Christ,” If Catholicism did, they would accept LGBTI people.

  19. Mark in Halifax 16 Nov 2013, 12:10am

    This is a strange one for me and I’m not sure how to read it. On the one hand, as Cardinal Bergoglio, he did issue that statement against same sex marriage. As Pope Francis, however, he has appeared much more liberal leaning and open to change. Cynically, it could be a move to bring people back into the church by promising them something he ultimately won’t deliver……but it could be something else. What if it is the beginning of a campaign to try and change some Catholic values? What if over 50% of Catholics have no problem with same sex relationships? If change comes from the top, then Frankie is gonna have to do something positive. I’m not a Catholic, in fact I’m an atheist, but if this ultimately does create some small, positive changes in one of the world’s most bigoted and hypocritical organisations, then I’m all for it. I’ll watch the outcome with interest. In the meanwhile, I’m off to pretend I’m a Catholic and complete my questionnaire…….!!

    1. You have no right completing questionnaire if you are not a Catholic.

    2. You have no right completing the questionnaire if you are not Roman Catholic.

      1. You have no right to tell people what they can or cannot do.

        1. I have every right when a fraudulent act is been undertaken. These questionnaires are for Roman Catholics only.

          1. Mark in Halifax 17 Nov 2013, 10:28am

            Well let me tell you, I completed mine and so did my husband. Now, report me to the Pope!

      2. Mark in Halifax 17 Nov 2013, 12:38am

        What rights do Catholics have to tell me who I can marry? I’m just redressing the balance…….you got an issue with that?

        1. Sebastian Pinder 17 Nov 2013, 8:16am

          Catholics on the whole do not tell you who you can marry, a few high ranking church officials make the statemants. I personally have no issue with who you what to marry and I am catholic.

          1. Mark in Halifax 17 Nov 2013, 10:33am

            In your delusional Catholic state, you actually believe this? A few high ranking people make the statements, but they are telling the faithful – who are thankfully dwindling in number – to uphold these decrees and impose their thinking on others. So yes, they DO try to tell us who we can marry. Thankfully I am intelligent enough to ignore them.

          2. Frank Boulton 18 Nov 2013, 11:45am

            I think, Sebastian, that you do have an issue with who can marry whom, as you clearly have an issue with who can lie with whom. See your own words above and your quotation from a well-known and willfully mistranslated verse from the Bible.

          3. Frank I have not quoted any biblical verse if you read back and Mark Catholics are not in dwindling numbers the amount of catholics in the world is at an all time high and still on the increase in excess of 2 billion not including the Protestant churches.

  20. Until the pope at least says he’s ok with equal marriage under the law, the attacks will continue

    http://nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

    http://www.truthbeknown.com/victims.htm

    the church of the endlesss hidden molestation of children by its sex starved priests, eg in the los angeles dioceces $650 million was paid to victims and their families

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/14/AR2007071400968.html

    ps read “our fathers – the secret life of the catholic church in an age of scandal

    about $10 via search engine http://www.bookfinder4u.com (there may be an Gr BR version of this website)

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