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Prominent trans campaigners condemn use of #fuckcispeople in Twitter argument

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  1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 2:47pm

    i would hardly call louise mench a trans rights campaigner

  2. Many trans brothers and sisters are increadibly angry with their injustice. Not only have they been totally oppressed by the “straight” community, but feel cheated by the “gay” community for being left out of the dicsussion or thrown under the bus for their own benefit.

    It is so understandable, their anger. I am angry for them. However, to counter hate with hate only breed more hate. It turns the “fence-sitters” against you. It makes them think you are nasty person, so why should they like you?

    We must all end the cycle of hate. We cannot return hate with hate, it breeds like a disease.

    Nelson Mandela ended the revenge cycle in South Africa by bodly wearing the sports kid of the “other” team in public. He could have easily took his anger out and continued the cycle – but he chose to be the better man.

    That is what we must all do. We must let go of the hate, the burning rage. We must not keep the cycle going. We must be the bigger person.

    Stand up for yourself but no h8!!!

    1. I agree – the anger is totally understandable. It must get tiring when even your allies need constant retraining.

      Kudos to the trans community for moving to nip this in the bud.

      Now how about more support in the cisgender gay community? It surely is something that we can do.

      1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 2:57pm

        how about not jumping on our bandwagon

        1. Indeed.

          And likewise how aboit the trans community jumping on the LGB bandwagon.

          Sexual orientation and gender are separate issue.

          Let the trans community fight their own battles a Theotherone so helpfully suggests.

          1. Fine, lets remember that Stonewall was a riot started by trans POC over gender expression (clothing) laws.

          2. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:22pm

            i am a lesbian mate, i have bisexual friends and gay male friends all of whom are trans*

          3. Julian Morrison 16 Aug 2013, 3:35pm

            Trans people are majority LGB (cite: the survey results presented in “Injustice at every turn”).

          4. Erm. The myth about Stonewall being started by trans people is just a myth. The people who took part in it were primarily young gay men, some of them sex workers. There were no trans people involved, only some drag queens. The rest is just a recent invention.

          5. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:57pm

            i sugest you check out the testimony of those involved in stonewall and in the earlier comptons riots which allowed the growth of national queer rights groups that where able to exploit stonewall when it happened

          6. I suggest you watch the documentary on the riots. From your point of view the problem with it is of course that it contains interviews with the real participants, rather than people creating imaginary histories decades later.

    2. Mercia McMahon 16 Aug 2013, 2:55pm

      Me and Paris Lees do not always see eye to eye, but she is spot on here and needs to be as such a ridiculous hashtag makes a mockery of Trans Media Action’s engagement with non-trans people in the media. Me I was about to polish off my article agreeing with Louise Mensch that cis is insulting and hypocritical for a community that constantly updates what others are allowed to call it. So this is great timing.

      1. cis isnt insulting, fuckcis is insulting.

    3. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 2:55pm

      i admit i took part in the hash tag last night, now i’m just defending it’s existance.

      hate and anger need to be cleansed and this never happend in south africa, the violence that is still a part of life in that country testifies to this.

      i don’t hate poc for saying that ther eis institutionalised systems of power i benefit from or woc for the ‘solidarity for white women’ hashtag so why should we be hated for voiceing our anger?

  3. Locus Solus 16 Aug 2013, 2:52pm

    I remember once being called trans-phobic because a transsexual person asked “would you have sex with me?” and I said no. Despite the fact that I was positive about their journey and used appropriate pronouns.

    I understand that it’s difficult, but flaming people even when they aren’t ignorant doesn’t help.

    1. Need some extra info. Would you refuse to have sex with them BECAUSE their trans? If so you are transphobic. If not then fine.

      1. Locus Solus 17 Aug 2013, 1:48pm

        Well indirectly yes. I just don’t fancy sleeping with someone who is transgender? :/ I don’t think that’s anybodies fault.

      2. Leigh Hamilton 17 Aug 2013, 5:19pm

        Hold on there. Nobody has any obligation to sleep with *anyone*, for any reason. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a trans ally not wanting to have sex with a trans person – much like there’s nothing wrong with me not wanting to have sex with a woman, even though I respect her as a person, because I’m a gay man.

        1. It’s fine if as a gay man you aren’t into a gay trans man like me, then. But comparing it to not wanting to sleep with a woman IS transphobic. It is the essence of transphobia; denying trans people their true gender and making it all about the birth sex. If you don’t like vagina, then fine, I’ve got a penis! After years of testosterone, breast removal and genital reconstruction surgery, I am indistinguishable from any other man. But to be compared with a woman based solely on how I was born is the most hurtful insult. Sorry you can’t see that is transphobic.

          1. Really? Indistinguishable? I assume you are fully functional with all the physical reactions as well then?

  4. Too scared to say anything ‘cos the online radical trans and radical feminist movement supporters seem to only enjoy attacking anyone and everyone.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:28pm

      obviously you’re being oppressed as a male eh? total misandry! (hashtag: idiot)

  5. Louise Mensch is a nutjob herself but she is right. No one in the real world knows or uses the word ‘Cis’. It is just a term professional trans victims use to make themselves feel special.

    We should all fight for trans rights, but the discussion needs to be less aggressive.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:07pm

      thanks for telling another minority how to feel

    2. “professional trans victims”
      Are you serious? Do you seriously think that trans people make-up the amount of discrimination that many of us recieve on an all-too-regular basis? Get a clue.
      The discussion does NOT need to get less agressive. Stop tone policing.
      We’ll never be over cissexism until cis people admit that trans people have every damn reason to be angry.

      1. Mercia McMahon 16 Aug 2013, 5:47pm

        yes professional trans victims, step away from trans online activist hang-outs and go on a general trans online forum and post this hateful stuff and you will find out Louise Mensch was right, this is about a self-congratulatory cohort who do not represent the wider trans community, who will give you short shrift, especially those with non-trans partners. Stop pretending you represent anyone but your own little circle and Be Happy Trans.

    3. Bayne MacGregor 18 Aug 2013, 6:41am

      Just because the prefix hasn’t been common doesn’t mean it’s not used. It is after all thousands of years old and is older than the English language having come down to English from Latin. The term Cis is automatically valid therefore.

      The complaints about Cis are exactly like the complaints decades ago about the word heterosexual but even weaker arguments.

      Cis being the automatic pre-existing opposite prefix for the prefix Trans the term will get more widely used as it’s so useful. It’s just a matter of time.

  6. I still think it’s sad they axed CIS Miami.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:24pm

      oh that red headed actor was crap though

  7. I wish the trans community well in their struggle for equality.

    I hope they reach their goals.

    But let’s remember that their battle is theirs to fight. LGB people have a different struggle and we don’t need to get involved in the trans campaign.

    As theotherone acknowledges the trans community does not want or need CIS or gay people’s assistance.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:30pm

      excuse me mate: where the hell did i say that? i’m a lesbian, should i not be a lesbian or am in not a real lesbian?

      please explain how i’m not part of your community?

    2. So you’re treating ‘the trans community’ as a homogeneous whole. Tell me, how do you feel when straight people use ‘the gay community’ as a way to pretend all gay people are the same and want the same approach for the same goals? Hmm?

      If you’re cis and have been brought up in this institutionally transphobic society, unless you make some active effort to unpack your privilege you’ll actively be a problem. So you DO have to get involved in ‘the trans campaign’ (as you term it) to a degree, purely in the interest of not being a jackass.

    3. Bayne MacGregor 18 Aug 2013, 6:49am

      News flash!
      Gender diversity is VERY common amongst gay and lesbian youth. So they share many of the same rights issues Trans kids do. And much Homophobic Bullying is also Transphobic Bullying.. our oppression is related, two sides of the same coin.

      Extra! Extra!
      Gay and Lesbian brains show cross-sex neurology and neural activity as seen in FMRI scans and shown in New Scientist etc. The new Epigenetic model for the causation of Gays and Lesbians is one shared with Trans so Gays and Lesbians are closely related to Trans.

      Breaking News!
      People have already started trying to prevent babies being born Lesbian using drugs intended to work on Intersex kids. The Gay Cure science is bringing to destroy gayness will be used on Trans and Intersex and GLB all at once. We are ALL in the same fight. No excuses and no exceptions. Our rights are all connected.

      Now you’ve been informed.

  8. You have a short memory if you don’t remember that homosexuality was a medical disorder too for a long time, and there are still mental health ‘professionals’ who think it should be treated with reparative surgery.

    Also there is a big difference between saying dysphoria is a mental health issue and saying being trans is in itself a disorder. Look dysphoria up in the dictionary, it’s the opposite of euphoria, of course it’s less than ideal. However being trans isn’t synonymous with dysphoria.

    Using the term ‘mental cases’ is also perjorative towards a great many people.
    Thumbs. Down.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:45pm

      ‘Some will accommodate your condition and play along’

      kind of betraying what you think there eh?

    2. I never claimed that it isn’t valid to consider dysphoria a mental health issue. It’s upsetting, the clue is in the very word!

      Trans people do NOT believe that they’re something that they aren’t. That’s a total trope. Trans people are as aware of what gender they were assigned at birth and of their physical sex as anybody else. No, in fact they’re MORE aware. Trans people and those who accept us and choose not to misgender us simply see that using definitions of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ that rely on certain physical attributes is limiting and very harmful to a minority of people who often strongly feel that they have some essence of gendered (or not gendered) self that is nothing to do with their primary and secondary physical attributes. Actually people CAN change many aspects of their sex. I know some cis people like to pull out ‘you can’t change your chromosomes’, but you know what? I don’t give a rats ass about my chromosomes.

      1. [rant continued]I don’t give a rats ass about my chromosomes. That Y chromosome’s sh*t has been shut the hell down! If you’re choosing to use a definition of ‘man’ and ‘woman’ that are harmful to trans people that’s nothing to do with sex, biology or some rule of language, it’s a choice to define people by their current or previous anatomical sex done IN SPITE of the harm that that does.

        Similar ‘playing along’ arguments are made by people who argue that ‘omg marriage has been redefined to allow same-sex couples to pretend they’re like opposite-sex couples’. Both arguments are equally problematic.

        1. Sorry but that Y hasnt been shut down. If you have genetic conditions related to the Y they can still show, or be passed on.

          Another thing. Transition surgery is not 100% complete. You are at most a female mind in a male body that has been altered to superficially seem female. You are not totally female. I know it seems harsh, but its true.

          Trans people still dont seem to understand that they arent fully the sex they identify as. Often cis people talk about being deceived by a trans person, and the reality is that many trans people don’t even understand why its a deception at all. Untyil they do we wont get anywhere.

          1. Take your transphobia somewhere else.

          2. Whos transphobic? Is it transphobic to want the genitals we are attracted to?

          3. friday jones 21 Aug 2013, 5:18am

            It’s gross that you want genitals instead of the human beings allegedly attached to said genitals. Creepy and gross.

  9. Theotherone specifically acknowledged that she participates in the ‘f*ckcispeople’ mentality.

    Therefore she is clearly acknowledging that she is uninterested in CIS people.

    This is good to know as it means that LGB cispeople can let her and her transfriends fight their own battles.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:47pm

      you’re so right! does that mean i hate my cis lesbian partner of nearly 10 years?

      1. No but it does show a lack of respect for her since the use of the term disparages her.

  10. I never thought I would agree with Louise Whench on anything, stranger things have happened though, I guess.

    This is all a nonsense, separating people from a common goal. It should be about equality for all, but this is achieving nothing but more division.

    It’s a pointless tactic, it doesn’t work, it’s only pushing more and more people away from being reasonable.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:56pm

      check out the hashtag and see what’s on it, it’s not what’s being presented here.

    2. No, trans people do not have to be reasonable and don’t have to spend every second doing things that you deem ‘productive’. Transphobia is the fault of cis people. If you’re in a privileged group it’s your own responsibility to educate yourself not to have the minority do it for you. I don’t just say this as a trans person, but also as a white person, an able-bodied person, a sighted person, etc. I can’t remotely imagine myself whinging about a minority group that I’m not part of engaging in some much needed catharsis.

      I do believe that generalisations are never helpful, but giving space to this kind of minority blaming backlash with all the crap that goes on in the wider world? Hell no.

      1. Go back to Tumblr

      2. Ah an sjw outside of tumblr, please tell us cis people, how are we ment “educate ourselves” if trans people will not willingly provide us that which we need to learn. You can’t tell someone to educate themselves if the teacher just keeps screaming “I hate you!”

        1. Learn that you will be rejected if you dont disclose who you are. If you genuinely want to fine people who like you for who you are they need to know whop you are.

          Failure to disclose is the biggest cause of a bad reaction.

  11. Oh and no mention of how many of the uses of the hash tag are ‘#fsckcispeople who [do this bad thing]’.

    I wonder if the Daily Mail are hiring at the moment.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 3:50pm

      i think if people actually checked the hash tag they would see what it’s being used for not what some people want to see in it.

      1. I did actually check the hashtag. Pages and pages of it. Don’t act like the things being said are only positive. Words are powerful. You can act like oh maybe they said it wrong but the meaning/idea behind it is this blah blah…. it doesn’t work like that. You would hate it if this were aimed at you. You just want a reason to inflame people.
        I’m sorry you’re angry but this isn’t the way to deal with it.
        I hope you can heal in a positive way in the future.

  12. de VIlliers 16 Aug 2013, 4:24pm

    Let’s spread the hate.

    That is what seems to be the message. Hate cures all.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 4:29pm

      again i say read the hashtag not this article, it’s not what it’s being portrayed as

    2. The hatred against Trans People is spread everywhere anyway. What you see in the Hashtag is just the response to this hatred. If it seems excessive to you then that means that probably you don’t find cause for aggressive resistance in the every day violence that trans people have to go through. Although i don’t agree on principle, there are times that anger is fully legitimate to evolve into violence. Turning the other cheek is just too bloody stupid when you are constantly harassed.
      We might leave on principles but we don’t always survive on them.

  13. David Campbell 16 Aug 2013, 5:11pm

    “Also, some were heavily critical of former Tory MP Louise Mensch, who said she was “offended”, by the term, and also tweeted that the term “cis” is “used exclusively by a tiny group of online nutjobs who mostly rant at themselves.””

    Agreed. I, too, am offended at the creation and application of the term “Cis-” in general.

    1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 7:48pm

      poor you

    2. Cis is a valid scientific term. Many thing including chemicals can be cis and trans. Trans fats ring a bell?

      The terms cis and trans are Latin, cis means “on the same side” and trans means “on the other side” or “across”.

    3. Bayne MacGregor 18 Aug 2013, 6:54am

      Sorry, it’s too late, you spoke English so you have to deal with it. Cis has been the opposite prefix of Trans for thousands of years through English and before English as a language even existed. It comes from Latin. The moment you started speaking English is the moment Cis got applicable. It’s as automatic as Up making Down acceptable or Left making the word Right acceptable, in out, hot cold, forward backward etcetera.

      Of course now you can feel sympathy for the people who got upset when the term Heterosexual started being used.

  14. Christine Beckett 16 Aug 2013, 5:40pm

    Loose cannon….

  15. Dana Taylor 16 Aug 2013, 5:53pm

    How many of you have actually read this hashtag before commenting here? This isn’t about cis-feefees, it is about the real suffering within the trans community. We don’t care if us venting about it hurts your feelings.

    1. outside observer 16 Aug 2013, 7:30pm

      “We don’t care.” That’s the whole problem in a nutshell.

      1. theotherone 16 Aug 2013, 7:49pm

        so we should, while fighting for our rights, think of any offence you may take?

        1. This isn’t fighting for your rights… What rights do you acquire by inflaming others ?
          What does this get you ?
          You feel like you’ve accomplished something because you’re venting. that’s it. It hasn’t furthered the trans movement at all.
          Its making people work harder against you.
          It’s screwed up that you can’t see the damage you’re doing to your own cause.

    2. It’s not about hurt feelings, it’s about doing things right, people using the hash tag are making trans people look like idiots and hurting cause, but you know keep acting like the bigots you fight against, we’ll see how many people you get on your side.

      1. Trans people opposing the hashtag make trans people look like wishy washy apologists who are all too willing to be stepped on if it means avoiding conflict, and are hurting the cause. But keep kissing the asses of the bigots you want to assimilate into, and we’ll see who ends up libertated.

  16. Surely the priority is to get the words “trans” and “transgender” understood. I think the term “cis” will erect barriers where none exist, rather than demolish the ones that do exist.

    Some years ago I was on a stall at Cardiff Mardi Gras and we handed out questionnaires asking about sexual orientation, with the options being lesbian, gay, bisexual and heterosexual. Several straight visitors had to ask which one they were. Most were along the lines of guys saying “I’m only into girls, which one am I?”. One visitor however was a very elderly Ukrainian émigré, and we heard him announcing to his family “I never knew I was a ‘heterosexual'”. If the word “heterosexual” is presenting a problem to non-LGB people, imagine how non-trans people will cope with being labelled as “cis”.

    BTW a work colleague is trans and a fellow member of our workplace LGBT network, and I’ve never heard her refer to cises.

    1. Rachel Bellum 17 Aug 2013, 5:07am

      You’ve actually highlighted an important reason to promote the use of words like heterosexual and cis. Without heterosexual, the choices would have been homosexual, bisexual or normal. Many people tend to assume labels are for the abnormal. The word cis helps remove the value judgment from gender orientation. Cis is an appropriate word to oppose trans and is often used as such in several contexts. Yes, some people can become offended when initially learning their behavior has a label. It’s typically because they associate all labels with slurs for abnormal or unacceptable and don’t wish to be seen that way. As they learn that it is a value free label rather than an attack, as they learn that it’s merely a way to denote their “lifestyle choices,” they tend to relax about it. Educating people about the cis label is an important and successful part of the process of educating societies about trans people.

  17. Anna Hayward 16 Aug 2013, 10:51pm

    My wife is trans. Don’t insult all cis-gendered people – some of us love our transgendered partners/friends/relatives.

    1. Julian Morrison 16 Aug 2013, 11:03pm

      If it’s not about you don’t make it about you. We are not going to say “eff cis people, except Bob and Jane are fine, and so’s Mike”. This is mass culture we are angry with. But hey, by piping up to silence the trans people, you’ve made it about you now. “But we love trans people” is a variation on “some of my best friends are…” and is not an excuse.

      1. That’s not what they meant and you know it, you just don’t want to see it.
        Hmmm imagine if people reacted like that to the hashtag ?
        oh wait they did, and where has that gotten you ?
        Negative press ? More misunderstandings ?
        You expect people to understand you yet you can’t even understand others. You have no patience yet you want it in return.
        The commenter just wanted to show there was a difference between them and the cis people you’re attacking. They’re supporting you and you can’t even see that because your hastag idea is screwy. All it’s creating is confusion and hate,yes that includes from trans people.
        You’re venting and it’s making people hate you. Wonderful.

      2. Bayne MacGregor 18 Aug 2013, 7:02am

        But there is a valid criticism (where so many comments i’ve read are not). The tag isn’t ‘f-transphobic cis people’ or ‘F- cis-sexist culture’ or ‘f-cis privilege’. so the tag isn’t accurate.

        And the tag not being accurate means that many people will feel; targeted who shouldn’t and many people who should be targeted aren’t. I’ve faced plenty of Transphobia from other Trans people for example.

        Cis isn’t synonymous with Transphobic. There are many Cis people who are allies, trans-attracted in orientation and non-transphobic and many Trans people riddled with internalised oppression and hostile especially towards non-binary Trans people. So it is mistaken and unhelpful in trying to end Transphobia by using a phrase as if Transphobia and Cis were synonymous. It’s missing the mark when what we need is clear accuracy and attacking the source concepts of the problem that infest Cis AND Trans comunities with Transphobia.

  18. I agree that needless attacks are not the best way to win people over, but could cis people PLEASE stop getting their panties in a twist over the word?? It is NOT AN INSULT! It is not an attack on people who aren’t trans! It is short for cisgender or cissexual, the opposite of transgender/transsexual, i.e someone who identifies very clearly as their birth sex. A simple descriptor, the same as heterosexual is to homosexual. And those of you who don’t like it, what are you suggesting we call you instead? Normal? I imagine straight people once said the same thing about being labelled as heterosexual. HTH

    1. I have no problem with being called cis, because i am cis and its a valid scientific term. I do have a problem with #fuckcispeople

    2. This is about the hash tag, which IS a direct insult.

  19. This is an issue with both sides.

    Of course there are many Cis people who are hateful about Trans people, but there are Trans people who dont understand why a Cis person would have a problem with being deceived.

    If you are trans thats perfectly OK by me, its not my place to judge or care, but be honest about who you are. Be aware and understand that if you are not packing the expected equipment, you may be rejected. It matters, if it didnt some trans people wouldn’t bother to undergo the full transition.

    As a gay man I have to understand that not all men are gay and a straight man may react badly if I misread the signs. It really isnt the same as when 2 straight people misread the signs.

    I expect to be down voted for this, which really proves my point.

    1. theotherone 17 Aug 2013, 5:53pm


      1. How many time have people (admittedly claimed) to have chatted up, or more, a girl only to discover she was trans later, after the point of disclosure should have been reached?

        Whether you like it or not is DOES matter to most people. The reaction on here to the article recently about the teen who ‘slept’ with her ‘boyfriend’ only to discovered he as trans proved my point that trans people still dont understand that it IS a deception if you don’t declare who you are.

        You are not holding yourself to the same standard you are expecting us to have. How many times have trans people on here said that it ‘shouldnt matter’, that love is what counts or that genitals are not as important as a connection. If thats really true, why even transition in the first place??

        Sorry if this is harsh or in your face, but as a gay man, I want fully functional cock and balls. Some trans men are gorgeous, but if they still have a vagina or even a constructed penis, then no way..

        1. theotherone 17 Aug 2013, 7:54pm

          as a gay man why in hell’s name would a gender varient woman be chatting you up?

          i assure you: women prefer not to sleep with gay men and, sorry to say, but the world does not revolve around your cock

          1. theotherone 17 Aug 2013, 8:09pm

            sorry, i noticed uponre reading you mention transmen but my point still stands -the world does not revolve around your cock and people’s worth is not measured in how much you want to sleep with them

          2. I didnt say it did, i said that trans people do try to sleep with people without disclosing who they are. This is a deception. My point stands and you have deflected because you have no answer. If genitals dont matter, why change them? Answer.. If you can.

          3. Already answered those for you. You chose not to reply. Was I too rational for you? You’ve got such massive hangups I’d be surprised if your ankles aren’t suspended above your head.

        2. 2 problems with what you say, Rovex.

          a) “It matters, if it didnt some trans people wouldn’t bother to undergo the full transition.” Nope. It doesn’t matter, not to everyone. You’re clearly one of these gay men who think you get to speak for all gay men and apparently even “most people!” Newsflash: you’re just one guy. I’m a trans man and I am probably not going to “bother” to undergo the so-called ‘full transition’. Because firstly I like sex and I’m not going to risk losing sensation and secondly because I am not comfortable taking time off work for major surgery that I don’t need, or spending taxpayers money on something that doesn’t make me feel dysphoric. Transition goes as far as the trans person involved needs to feel comfortable. Nobody else gets to decide where that point is. I would never have the full operation just so I could get in someone else’s pants. Sorry but I actually value myself. There’s plenty of folk who find me sexy as I am.

          1. b) “…trans people still dont understand that it IS a deception if you don’t declare who you are”. No. YOU don’t understand. I declare who I am when I walk down the street every day. I declare who I am sat at my desk doing my job, in meetings, down the pub, in bed, watching TV. I am who I am, just as you are. You don’t mean “if you don’t declare who you are.” You mean “if you don’t declare what genitals you have.” I think I’ll start walking up and down the street with “vagina” written in red ink on my forehead so that everybody knows what they are letting themselves in for when they serve me in a shop, speak to me at a bar, join me in a work meeting, sell me a car. Just in case the poor people might otherwise have found me attractive. Maybe we should all just wear badges or something. How far would you have us go?

            THIS is why we need that twitter tag. To think, I came on here to say it shouldn’t be worded in such a way but after reading the comments I’ve done a 180.

          2. It matters to the VAST majority and you know it does, why dont you understand that? Its not about having ‘hangups’ its about preferences.

            You should value yourself, however understand that maybe you as a trans man with a vagina dont appeal to the majority of those you are attracted to.

          3. Now we’re talking about something else. My gripe with you is your belief you have the sanctimonious right to speak for everyone. You don’t. What if I were to say to you “the VAST majority of men are straight. They don’t want to sleep with you.” Hopefully you’d shrug and say “I’m not interested in every man that walks and breathes, I’ll go for the gay ones.” Same applies in my opinion. I am not interested in people who aren’t interested. I suppose it differs by circle but I am not interested in hanging around bars superficially judging people on whether I’d sleep with them or not. I spend my time much more quietly, I’m actually very in imposing. I have a partner of 2 years. I also don’t lack for people who find me attractive. Here’s another example for you. I don’t find tall men attractive. So I won’t ask out tall men. Now you think your case is special cos I can see if a man is tall and not ask him on a date. You can’t see if a man is trans. So that makes it deception? No.

        3. Where the hell did my comment to this guy go? Took me a whole 5 minutes of my time to write that!

    2. Bayne MacGregor 18 Aug 2013, 7:14am

      That expectation you talk of? That expectation there is the error. There’s no deception other than the deception of that expectation.

      As you are a gay man i ought to tell you something… there are more Crossdressers out there by most estimates (at least 3% and possibly as much as 20%) than there are self-identified gay men (between 2% and 3% with bisexuals possibly as high as 20%). So there’s actually pretty good odds that when you make a move on someone the ‘equipment’ either will be other than your expectation or will be covered by womens undergarments and the only thing that’s stopped you from encountering this half the time is that transphobia has kept many too deep in the closet.

      But as more and more are coming out and standing up for equality you are going to find more and more of the guys are trans-guys and more and more of the gay and straight guys you know even now will be in skirts some of the time or all of the time and either girls or more commonly somewhere in between.

      1. What the hell? What a pointless meaningless rant that has nothing to do with anything!

        FYI i would make a move on a man in womans cloths anyway, because its not what im attracted to. People like you like to blame us for your problem

        1. I should say wouldnt make a move.

      2. I dont care all that much if a guy is in a skirt sometimes, although im not especially keen, but i DO expect the ‘guy’ to have a real penis.

        Most people want what they want, and you need to get over the fact that usually thats not a trans person.

  20. I am an avid supporter of trans rights. I have trans friends and I am also cis and gay. Gay people are also being killed by straight people, but I don’t go around lumping ALL straight people together and slamming them on the internet.

    Lumping ALL cis people together like that really isn’t very constructive and just makes ALL trans people look bad in the eyes of cis people!

  21. I’ve been around long enough to see that often trans people put themselves in a position whereby they are going to be rejected, but are too militant to understand why, this makes them bitter and haste cis people.

    Its clear from the comments here that the trans people posting still dont understand this.

    Of course there are bigots who will hate you for what you are in any situation, but the actions of trans people can alienate otherwise indifferent people sometimes.

    All most people want is disclosure. Not in the work place, or the supermarket, or on the street, but in any possible relationship forming situation.

    A down vote for this just proves my point.

    1. That’s fair enough. I think you’ll find most trans people do this. Personally as I said above, I’m not interested in someone who isn’t interested. Few want to put themselves in that gruelling ‘disclosure’ situation in the first place. Of those who do, I’d suspect only a few are ‘militant’ as you describe. It’s like a straight man saying “I met this hidious camp guy in the pub last night. He fawned all over me and wouldn’t take no for an answer. All gays are camp queens who fantasise over straight men and won’t leave us alone.” What I get from you Rovex is a desire to trample all over a smaller minority than yours just because you think you can. You DO have some hangup, perhaps you were hit on once by a trans man and were gutted he didn’t have a dick. Get over it! I’m sure he did when you said no.

      Also I hope trans people don’t hate anybody, life’s too short and there’s enough hate in the world as it is. (Which is what I wanted to say on here in the first place).

    2. And what other irrelevant parts of a person’s medical history do you require them to disclose before entering a relationship?

      And have you thought that perhaps being upfront about your absurd hangups so that trans people will know better than to date you would be a better solution than your current belligerent demands that people explain their junk to you?

  22. “We need hatred to heal”



  23. Allow me to present a hash-tag to be used in lieu of this overly generalized statement. Kudos to the intended message; shame upon what ends up coming out of it.
    #genderharmony. Harmony among all genders, all identities, trans – cis – anyone caught in between – harmony between all genders.

  24. Let me posit a little example for you to ponder. From the time you realize that you aren’t part of your mother, you know that there is something ‘wrong’ with you. Why aren’t you like the other girls? You cry yourself to sleep at six when you’re told that you will never be able to be a mother. As a teenager, you are sent to a Christian school to ‘straighten you out.” Of course it doesn’t work, and it just makes you further distrust the people you are supposed to have the most faith in. After having repeated issues with you “disrupting class” by telling bullies to leave you alone, the school tells you that you are not welcome back the next year. You then get to go to public school, only to have the bullying increase to include physical attacks and sexual harassment and assault. But you get told that it is your fault, and that you should “just ignore” the people trying to stick their hands in your jeans or up your skirt; or the ones that corner you on the way to class, demanding you

  25. (2) either suck them off, screw them, or end up in the nurses office. You aren’t allowed to participate in extra-curricular activities, as all of them are sex (not gender) specific. When you finally get your own car, someone scratches “TRANNY” into the hood. Of course, the school never finds out who did it, and it makes you wonder if they even bothered to look. College isn’t much better, as every attempt is made to make feel you feel unwelcome. You almost miss registration because your high school refuses to change your name on your transcripts, and the college refuses to review your court supplied documentation as proof of your identity. Your admissions counselor tells you that you are not allowed to take nursing or child care courses, nor use the restrooms on school grounds (as they are sex specific). Your grades suffer, as no one wants to tutor or be in a group with “the freak”. When you finally drop out, you have great difficulty finding a job, as so many of your older documents

  26. (3) still retain vestiges of your former identity. Once you are finally able to find a job, you are still harassed there, only this time you can’t avoid the customers and you can’t leave without losing your job. During this time you get to know other people like you, and hear their stories. You hear about the person that was booted from her home, and the guy that was a victim of ‘corrective’ rape. You get to hear about people like you fired, evicted from their homes. You get to hear about people like you that end up strung out on drugs or in prostitution, just to be able to deal. You get to hear about people like you being assaulted, both physically and sexually. You hear about people like you being murdered. And you get to hear about their murderers going free with the excuse of ‘temporary insanity’. Through two decades of abuse, you fought alongside others. You learned to trust them. That is, until they tell you ‘I’ve got mine, so screw you and f*** off’. You watch as former

  27. (4) friends paint you as a rapist, as a pedophile, and as a freak. While condemning disclosing information about their own group, they make every effort to publicize every detail of your life. Where you were born, what schools you went to, even where you work, and your parents and family’s information. And they want others to do the same- to tell everyone how horrible you must be. You lose your job, because your boss ‘doesn’t want any trouble.’ So you are left to rely on the kindness of your few remaining friends for a place to live, as you try and find another job, hoping the process doesn’t repeat itself. Then one evening, you are attacked in a very public forum by five people. The police are called, but you are the only one arrested. You are thrown in a holding cell, where the officer taunts you for hours about how some big burly men would ‘love to have their way with a pretty thing like you’, and a countdown for bail to be posted before it happens. You know, though, that based on

  28. (5) based on who you are you are very unlikely to survive the encounter. At trial, you are painted as the aggressor, that your mere presence was justification for their attack. Eventually, it gets to be too much, and you’re left with a choice. You can end your own life, but even with the lies of “It gets better!” you decide against it. You can physically hurt others, but that thought hurts you to the core. Or you can give your pain, fear, and anger a voice. But when you do, even that is presented as yet another in a long list of wrongs others say you have done. Congratulations on kicking someone while they are down.

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