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Comment: How Scotland’s same-sex marriage bill can be improved for trans and intersex people

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  1. Helge Vladimir Tiller 9 Aug 2013, 7:24pm

    Scottish Transgender Alliance ! I wish you success with your righteous work and claims.

  2. .....Paddyswurds 9 Aug 2013, 8:30pm

    Who ever said it had anything to do with trans OR inter sex It says Same Sex Marriage Bill. Why do these people always have to hang off someone else’s coat tails ffs. Start your own campaign and leave us alone . We have enough problems with out you lot rocking the boat and causing the bigots to point at us and call us a freak show.

    1. did you actually read the article you are commenting on?

      The Scottish same-sex Marriage Bill actually already address some of these issues, but inadequately and I agree with the suggestions for its improvement by the STA and the Equality Network.
      Unlike the English bill the Scottish bill also addresses other matters to update the Scottish Marriage law more generally.
      In fact a better name for the bill would be “Scottish Marriage Ammendment Bill 2013″

    2. Some Trans people are bi-sexual or gay lesbian too, intersex people may appear as and identify as one sex and be attracted to the same sex does that make them gay?
      I dont think you have thought this through.
      Sex and sexuality is far far more varied than a binary.

      1. .....Paddyswurds 10 Aug 2013, 8:17am

        If they are Gay or Lesbian, Fine it is all the other letters of the alphabet I have a problem with. Why do they need to hang on our coat tails. We have enough problems of our own Sometimes it gets ridiculous ; I have seen as many as five letters stuck on to the end of GLB.. wtf ??

        1. Intersex and transgender people are often at the forefront of defending and promulgating YOUR rights, buck up!

          1. .....Paddyswurds 10 Aug 2013, 1:11pm

            Yea right..maybe they should just butt out and sort their own problems… They are too busy whinging and whining to do anything for anyone never mind us….

          2. Trans, “queens” and “butch lesbians” were the ones who took charge at stonewall. We owe everything to them. His ignorance and sexism shines through

    3. Oh my word your ignorance is outstanding. How can you, as a minority, trample on another minority. Oppression is oppression is oppression.

      Trans people only make you “look bad” if you think of them as lesser, as degrading. You’re like those self loathing “straight acting” gay men who say any gay man who is SLIGHTLY effeminate or refuses to heteronormatize themselves “makes other gay guys look bad” because apparently, people don’t know that stereotypes are stereotypes and people will base their opinion of every gay man in the world on one person.

      You’re a sexist, do you know that? Homophobia stems from sexism. You think trans and femenine men or butch women “embarass” or “degrade” you because femeninity is bad and masculinity is good. Big strong putin-like men from the 1950′s are REAL men.

      How dare you deny others freedom of expression to be who they want, who they NEED to be, just because you can’t handle some ignorant fools opinion. Your skin must be paper thin.

      1. Many straight men hate all gay men because they think we make men in general look like “freaks” just for being attracted to other men, how are you any different from them? How is your ignorance and fear any better than theirs?

  3. Hopefully the SSM Bill in Scotland will not have the same faults regarding pensions as the SSM Bill in England had, otherwise Scotland’s Same-Sex Marriage Bill will not achieve equality for gay people as well as for trans and intersex people.

    1. Pensions are not, at present, within the Scottish Parliaments area of competency. It is a reserved matter to Westminster. So lets hope the review promised by the Rt Hon Ms. Maria Miller or the court case bears fruit.

      1. Thanks for clarifying that renovato :-)

  4. Common sense 10 Aug 2013, 12:25am

    Addressing the needs and wishes of transgender and intersex has already delayed the Scottish bill one year longer than it should have been. While I can understand some of the concerns outlined in the article I am left thinking that couldn’t these be best considered after the bills are passed?
    I’m not sure there would be wide parliamentary support for the kind of amendments you advocate at this stage (though there may be in future) and I would hate to see a long protracted argument over these delay the bill any further.

    1. I dont agree, the bill will now go through a defined process of Scottish Parliamentry Committees where the bill will be examined, amendments will be considered and comments from the Scottish public will be examined, it is now with the Equalities Committee.
      The biggest delay was caused by the Catholic Church’s attempt to subvert the consultation process and foreign input into the process which had to be seperated for relavance.
      The law making process and the Proceedures in the Scottish Parliament is not at all like Westminster, it is more similar to New Zealand.

      1. Passing bad, discriminatory or deficient law for the sake of expediency is never a good idea. So forgive me, I live here, and so I would rather it took a few weeks longer, if necessary, to get it right, and to treat people fairly and with proper respect.

  5. Equality Network 10 Aug 2013, 9:13am

    To the few people above who have suggested that these trans / intersex issues are somehow unimportant and are not central to the Scottish marriage bill, I have to say bluntly on behalf of the Equality Network that that is quite wrong.

    The Scottish Transgender Alliance is part of the Equality Network. The Equality Network has had a leading role in the equal marriage campaign in Scotland for 5 years.

    The reason why four out of five of the amendments to the bill that we are still seeking are T/I-related is mainly that the T/I-related parts of the bill weren’t included in the Scottish government’s consultation draft, so have had less discussion so far.

    The equal marriage campaign as a whole in Scotland involves various organisations, and all have discussed and agreed that the proposed trans and intersex related amendments should be promoted.

  6. Which is odd. New Zealand’s Marriage Equality Act doesn’t exclude same-sex partnerships where one partner has become the same sex as her or his former opposite sex husband or wife

  7. Mercia McMahon 12 Aug 2013, 8:28pm

    I can see that The Scottish Transgender Alliance has tried to come up with a resolution that works, but unfortunately they have failed. A concern is raised about a trans person facing discrimination for having different details on the birth certificate from how they live their lives, but issuing a Gender Recognition Certificate without a revised marriage certificate, means that the latter will now be different to not only (in most cases) the name that the trans person goes by, but also any gender markers that appear on a Scottish marriage certificate. Nathan has also played to the Pink News gallery by wrongly implying that the spousal veto is there to protect the sensitivities of heterosexuals. Once same sex marriages are enacted this spousal veto would equally protect those in same sex marriages from finding themselves in a heterosexual marriage without their permission. [cont.]

    1. Mercia McMahon 12 Aug 2013, 8:36pm

      I cannot see the proposed amendment being legally tenable. Scottish Transgender Alliance are asking for the trans person to be granted a non-standard Gender Recognition Certificate, which would require a re-writing of the Gender Recognition Act for those covered by Scottish law. Someone awarded a full Gender Recognition Certificate is regarded as the new legally acquired gender for all purposes with a few exceptions. At present marriage law is not one of those exceptions. Yet, this amendment would require Scottish applicants for a Gender Recognition Certificate to be applying to be legally their newly acquired gender, except for the purposes of their unchanged marriage certificate.

      For my response to the English and Welsh bill see http://transscribe.wordpress.com/2013/07/17/espousing-a-veto/

      1. James Morton 19 Aug 2013, 2:10pm

        Our proposed amendment would not result in a person being issued a non-standard gender recognition certificate. They would be issued with a normal gender recognition certificate which would make them legally their acquired gender for all purposes. Their legal gender change has no effect on their Scottish marriage as the only difference between a mixed-sex and same-sex marriage will be in terms of widow/er pension rights and a marriage which was entered into prior to one party undergoing gender recognition will already be protected from any changes to its widow/er pension rights. That exception is already in the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Act 2013. Therefore in terms of legal rights and responsibilities the marriage remains unchanged despite the trans person’s gender being legally recognised as the trans person’s legal gender will be irrelevant. There would simply be no new marriage certificate issued showing the new name of the trans person.

  8. Mercia McMahon 12 Aug 2013, 8:49pm

    Is there a delay or is a very silly person clicking Report on every one of these unmoderated comments that does not support the STA. I posted, could see the comment so that I could add something else that I had ran out of words for and although the comment count has increased by 2, neither of my comments were visible within a minute of the second one being posted

    1. Mercia McMahon 12 Aug 2013, 8:53pm

      Something up with the comment system, the minute I post the above further comment the other two reappeared. Yet clicking on Expand All on comments a minute prior to posting showed that the comments had gone, but were still part of the count.

  9. Natalie Graham 15 Aug 2013, 8:14pm

    If marriage is open to all then a marriage will be just that, a marriage. Not a same-sex marriage, not a heterosexual marriage or an anything else marriage. It is a marriage between two individuals. If one of those is a transexual person they are still the same person regardless of the state of their genitals or the status of their birth certificate. Beyond removing the awful requirement for married transexual people to choose between an existing marriage and their right to legal recognition of their gender there is no need, beyond the desire of legislators to over-complicate everything, for the equal marriage bill to have anything to do with the gender recognition process at all.

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