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Archbishop of Detroit: Pope’s comments on gay people represent ‘no change’

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  1. GulliverUK 3 Aug 2013, 1:13pm

    They seem to have come out fighting against their own Pope. Despite him not saying something which changes doctrine, he addressed us as “gay”, not the term “homosexuals”, which can be used as a derogatory term, and often is used that way by clergy. And he reminded them of the Catechisms, particularly 2358 (http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2358.htm)

    That’s important. But it seems the US Catholic leaders don’t want to hear it and have been trying to re-interpret his message, and playing on words like “unjust” discrimination, as if there is justified discrimination. It will take much stronger language from the Pope to target their abusive behavior towards us. To make good on the Pope’s words he needs to instruct them to stop opposing all the equality legislation, like ENDA, and promote tolerance in schools, stop the anti-gay bullying there.

    1. Guglielmo Marinaro 3 Aug 2013, 1:43pm

      The trouble with that, GulliverUK, is that the previous pope, then Cardinal Ratzinger, issued an official Vatican statement in 1992, entitled “Some Considerations Concerning the Response to Legislative Proposals on the Non-Discrimination of Homosexual Persons”, in which he declared that it is “just” discrimination to deprive gays of their livelihood for being gay, at any rate in certain professions, such as teaching; that if you are discriminated against because you are gay, the fault is yours for being so bloody stupid as to let people know you’re gay; and, in effect, that it is right to deter us from forming gay relationships by holding over us the threat of loss of employment (#14).

      This putrid document is not, strictly speaking, an infallible statement. (The concept of an “infallible statement” is an absurdity in any case, but that is another matter.) Even so, I cannot see the present Pope – even if he wanted to – explicitly contradicting it while his predecessor is still alive.

      1. GulliverUK 3 Aug 2013, 3:05pm

        To anybody who spends some time delving in to how we got here, i.e. how religion managed to get a stranglehold on societies, the very notion of religion is absurd, especially the origins, and Catholic faith. The trinity is absolute bullsh1t, it didn’t even appear in the early drafts, but was inserted in to a bible at the request of clergy. The very notion of Creationism is absurd, the errant and foolish view that the Earth is only tens of thousands of years old, when we have cave paintings from 30,000 years ago. Religion is totally crackers. Luckily most rational followers select the warm fuzzy bits that make them feel morally right, helping others, kindness, compassion, empathy and don’t pay too much attention to the stupid stuff. Leaders and saddos concentrate just on the ugly hate-mongering stuff.

        As for whether doctrine can be changed. They say no, but they’ve done it again and again and again. The use of condoms is now allowed in limited circumstances – groundbreaking !

      2. All of this is a legacy started by John Chrysostom, a 4th c. prelate who compared homosexuals to murderers and concluded homosexuals were worse. Snatching defeat from the jaws of a very small victory of propaganda, the 21st c. prelates (Vigneron, Dolan, et al) are lining up to pi55 all over the Pope’s declaration. How dare the Pope try to humanize and accept gay priests and LGBTs in general as worthy of respect! It remains to be seen just how sincere this Pope is, and whether his call for respect and non-judgment will be followed-up with appropriate support.

  2. Guglielmo Marinaro 3 Aug 2013, 1:16pm

    Strictly speaking, Vigneron is right. Pope Francis has, in effect, merely restated established Catholic teaching, only minus the coldly but restrainedly hateful language that characterized the statements of his predecessor on the subject (mostly made he was Cardinal Ratzinger). But at the end of the day, what difference does it really make? Established Catholic teaching on homosexuality, no matter how gently and chummily expressed, is both erroneous and harmful.

  3. Jen Marcus 3 Aug 2013, 1:33pm

    This guy is preaching the party line by trying to impress his “boss”, the pope, so he can get his “Red Hat” and be a Cardinal. Oh, I just love church politics!

  4. Pope, shmope. I really don’t care what this guy or anyone else considers a “sin”. I think your hair is a “sin”, so nerrrr.

    Mr. Pink

  5. RJ Abada OFM 3 Aug 2013, 2:33pm

    judgemental person alert

  6. You can smell the panic among all the over-promoted homophobes in skirts. They are all trying to downplay this. Of course nothing of substance has changed – no one really thinks it. But the style of Francis’s comments are very revealing. He’s suggesting things that make Dolan, Vigneron, Cordileone et al very uncomfortable.

    For 30 years most prelates have been promoted from a small sector of the clergy that is traditionally homophobic. They don’t match the laity which in the West is sympathetic to gay people – and in the US most support gay marriage. This disconnect will prove very damaging to the church – and Francis is not really of their ilk. So they are nervous!

    Note Vigneron’s patronising comment: “He may have had his own Pope Francis way of putting it, different from maybe the way Pope Benedict would put it, but they’re saying the same things.” Translation: this stupid old buffer is putting his foot in it again unlike B16 who wisely appointed me!

  7. Well we’d already figured it was business as usual in the Holy see.
    Tatchell nailed it when he said it was a change in tone, not a change in substance.
    Pope Francis can sugar coat it all he wants but we’re still treated as sinners if we act on being gay and told we’re out of line if we lobby for equality (like the Vatican never lobbies for it’s interests).
    Wake me up when he actually says anything substantially different. I won’t be holding my breath.
    The only response I can be bothered to give is this one in the Daily mash…

    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/who-am-i-to-judge-the-pope-says-gay-man-2013073077345

  8. Robert in S. Kensington 3 Aug 2013, 2:47pm

    Who gives a flying f_ck what this closet queen says or any of them for that matter? The gullible people who blew Francis’ statement out of proportion don’t realize that the RCC is judging us as long as the catechism calls our relationships intrinsically disordered. It takes hypocrisy and the double-standard to another level. Nothing has changed and the queen in Detroit is right about that.

  9. PeterinSydney 3 Aug 2013, 2:52pm

    All these old Arch-homophobes would never want to change from their gay bashing ways would they?

  10. I would have thought this bloke in a skirt would have other things to worry about – as in Detroit is bankrupt, desolate and ruined. Maybe needs to focus on the needs of his own city and stop telling the rest of us how to lead our lives.

    1. GulliverUK 3 Aug 2013, 4:09pm

      I would think he’d be concerned about all those children who were abused in Detroit, in Catholic churches, and how to spin the PR that they spent 4 times more money trying to cover it up than they paid out. The files are now revealed, and they show the Catholic church went to extraordinary efforts to cover up child abuse. Many of the leaders in the Catholic church should be in prison – some already are. This tosser led anti-equal marriage protests in California, so actively opposes people who are gay, and is happy to discriminate against anyone who teachers in Catholic schools but happens to be gay. And that is very much a US problem, this dropkick would not be allowed to get away with that in this country. It’s weird how people can sue for large sums in the US if they break a nail, but the law doesn’t protect gay people from discrimination in employment and housing in most states. It’s shameful.

      1. If the Catholic Church was concerned about the abused children, they would not have gotten rid of one of the suffragan bishops (I don’t think he was a full bishop, this all transpired before I moved here), who was for the church to do serious accounting before all the victims of abuse. Incidentally, that same “fired” bishop is also for church to reevaluate its view of the LGBT. But they’ve been somewhat successful about shutting the ex-bishop out of the official church.

  11. GingerlyColors 3 Aug 2013, 4:46pm

    I think there are more pressing issues in Detroit right now such as the city council going bust. With all the bankruptcies, wars, famine and poverty in the world I think that the Catholic Church should get it’s priorities right.

  12. This was obvious from day one. It was pointed out on here several times by fellow PN users.
    As vile as this priest’s views are, at least he’s spoken out on the issue, while every other public figurehead, pranced around acting like the Pope had legalized same sex marriage world wide.
    All the while the church continues to get away with running a pedophile organization, covering up masses of crimes, even though we know for a fact Benedict was helping to cover it up!

  13. Robert (Kettering) 3 Aug 2013, 5:07pm

    Looking at this Archbigots face, and having fairly strong gaydar, I’d say he was a closeted old queen for sure. Anyway, as I’m not RC or even a Christian come to that (I’m Pagan) I don’t give a flying f*ck was this closet case has to say or the pope for that matter so they can all get well and truly stuffed!

    1. ‘Archbigots’. Hah! Love it.
      Hope you don’t mind me using that term in the future. :)

  14. Godric Godricson 3 Aug 2013, 5:19pm

    There was a day when statements from the Church mattered and we accepted any bone they threw . Those days are long gone and we now watch the news and wait for the next headline about a “Disgraced” Roman Catholic cleric. I watch them spin and burn!

  15. Being a catholic in itself isn’t a sin, but acting on that bigotry is. Those to engage in catholic bigotry should repent and get their lives in order.

  16. Christopher Coleman 3 Aug 2013, 6:37pm

    Whatever one’s religious leanings, it is good that the Archbishop has confirmed that the papal statement does not indicate any change in Catholic teaching. A tremendous number of people did seem to think it represented the beginnings of a change. That attitude was no more than a display of ignorance. Now if so many seem to know so little about an organization that has been virtually static for several centuries, one can only suspect that they know as little about everything else going on today. Not a happy thought.

  17. Tom (Winnipeg) 4 Aug 2013, 12:44am

    So what, in my view your beliefs and opinions don’t matter a whit. They are just so much manure. Just go and dip your useless organs in a tub of ice and leave progress alone.

  18. “When Masturbating Catholic Clergy Ruled The Earth”
    Starring…
    Archbishop Vigneron as “Grandma” and
    Pope Francis as “Great Grandma”

  19. ‘…The Pope presented the church’s Catholic teaching … endorsed it, and then called us to live up to it…’

    and also exposed church’s spectacular failure to adhere to its own teaching, popes intended message

  20. This is pretty much what I’ve been posting as comments on articles heralding the new cuddly pope’s pronouncement on gay people. Nothing has changed. They are repeating the old “hate the sin, love the sinner” nonsense that still allows them to judge us as somehow unworthy and less than them, whilst providing themselves with a get out in that if we choose to behave differently, then that’s ok. We can be gay, but not BE gay. So this officer of the child rapist protecting, women and gay hating, AIDS promoting, child torturing multi billion pound corporation is quite right when he says the pope’s comments indicate no change in the Vatican. They are still the same vile nest of hateful, lying, bigoted, hypocritical con men they always were.

  21. Godric godricson 4 Aug 2013, 11:12am

    Then the scandal at Fort Augustus

  22. dorsetbob 4 Aug 2013, 1:32pm

    Quite right Godric. Hardly a day goes by without another shamefull tale of organised child abuse carried out by the catholic church. If they had any morality they would hide their faces in shame.

    1. http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/01/brighton-paedophile-who-worked-as-a-drag-queen-jailed-for-26-months/

      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2382454/Paedophile-drag-queen-Robert-Clothier-arranged-sex-children-8-11-caught-police-sting.html

      ‘I’m sweating like a paedophile in Mothercare it’s so hot in here’ – the kind of jokes that the so-called LGBT ‘community’ lapped up at Pride .

      Noticed Pink News will not discuss homosexual paedophiles among their own – comments firmly closed and covered up

  23. It appears, the Archbishop’s comments are at odds with his boss. Say anything to create a smokescreen and hope every one will forget. People have not forgotten the boys of Fort Augustus, UK, who have thinly veiled apologies from the catholic church for the abuse received at the hands of monks many years ago.

    “Homosexuality is not a sin, homosexual acts are.” So lets simplify the statement, and equate that to a lion bringing down a gazelle for food. The lion can think about it, but to do it, it would be a sin. A natural act for survival, as is homosexuality a natural act, documented and practised since history was recorded

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