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Professor Lord Winston and Tory minister Baroness Stowell: Children ‘do better’ with gay parents

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  1. Peers like O’Cathain lie so often that they can’t seem to switch it off, even when bashed over the head with facts(In my opinion)

  2. I makes sense really. Gay couples have to jump through hoops to become parents, so therefore must really want their children, and really care for them. All straight couples have to do it open their legs.

    I would suggest that great straight parents are no better or worse than great gay parents, but the average is dragged down by those that cared more about their drunken fumble than the outcome. Lets be honest here, we all know people like that.

    1. ‘Jump through hoops’ …no matter how many hoops they jump through they will never be parents – it’s biologically impossible and of course against the laws of nature .The pseudo-right of gay adoption/fostering/IVF genetic ‘screening’ has wrecked the lives of children because of selfish narcissism and the ‘me,me,me’ , ‘I want ‘ attitude .Children are not fashion accessories or status symbols to somehow make a disordered lifestyle seem ‘normal’.

      1. Sacre bleu 10 Jul 2013, 1:21am

        Ray, what evidence…. oh I can’t be bothered engaging with someone who probably has a reasonable intellect but whose thoughts are filtered through a sieve that only lets the hateful thoughts out (as characterised by the agenda of the fact blind religious) and refuse to let rational fact based ideas in.

        Please go back into your thought bubble closet and don’t bother coming out again until those hateful, religious inspired thoughts have corroded away that filter from accepting the real world.

  3. Robert in S. Kensington 9 Jul 2013, 2:48pm

    There is a ton of evidence in the U.S. by well respected institutions in regard to child care and psychology. A recent one in Australia also concurs.

    O’Cathain uses flawed research sponsored by right wing religious nutters like Regnerus. She’s just another loon who voted for Section 28 and opposed CPs yet there she was yesterday supporting CPs for care givers and siblings to wreck the bill but didn’t succeed.

  4. floridahank 9 Jul 2013, 3:18pm

    Has there been any reputable studies showing that children are much more happy when their families (hetero or homo) have a dog for a pet? From the preliminary readings I’ve done, a dog or cat can have a huge positive impact on happy feelings/behavior/sociological results simply by the pet being in the home. The psychology of human behavior be it social, sexual, familial, or other relational interactions, is in the earliest stages of being understood and it’s not wise to make broad statements based on very limited studies.

    1. You should address your (no doubt sincere) concerns to Professor Lord Winston. I’m sure he will give them the attention they deserve.

    2. bobbleobble 9 Jul 2013, 4:32pm

      Presumably you’ve taken the time to read these reports, study them fully and come to the conclusions that they are wrong? Or is it simply that they say something you don’t like and therefore should be dismissed out of hand?

      By all means tear the reports to shreds, point out why they’re wrong, that the authors are biased etc but something vague about it being too early to tell is not going to cut it.

      Not sure what the dog or cat has to do with anything though.

      1. GulliverUK 9 Jul 2013, 7:43pm

        The evidence in past years has come from many reports over a long period of time, and they show that children with gay parents in stable relationships do just as well as children with straight parents in stable relationships. But the IFS report here, about 2 years ago, also found that children with parents who cohabit and are in a stable relationship do just as well as children whose parents are married and in a stable relationship. You must always compare apples with apples, i.e stable with stable. Best results come from 2 parents, regardless of sexuality, because of the financial advantage.

        The key question which none of the opponents seems able to answer is; what does a child get from their mother which they can’t get from their father, and what does a child get from their father that they can’t get from their mother.

        1. Role models are important and the current adoption and fostering process looks at that in detail from all prospective adopters/fosterer’s regardless of sexuality or gender identity.

          During the application process you are required to provide evidence of being able to provide these role models in sufficient form before you are approved for fostering or adoption.

          Your social and family network is examined as part of this process and you are able to submit nominees from your social or family network who will be available in sufficient prominence to achieve this.

          The list also includes teachers, nannies, scout or other group leaders and so on.

          Basically, they are still looking for adequate male or female role models but also recognise the importance of transgender role models and query how this would be presented to the children, usually in an age appropriate manner.

          Social Services – in action- have come a long way but recognise there’s more to do.

        2. The answer is balance – the complementary of male and female – something missing from homosexual pairings which are unstable, unhealthy and often fleeting .

          1. which are unstable, unhealthy and often fleeting .

            Not that you’re given to making sweeping prejudiced generalisations, eh Ray?

            Just as a matter of interest, how long has your first-and-only marriage lasted?

          2. “The answer is balance – the complementary of male and female – something missing from homosexual pairings”

            The answer is indeed balance. Something that is missing from single parent adopters hence they need to prove that balance in their social and family network too. Unless, of course, you disagree with single parent adopters as well?

            Ray, you are not qualified to have a valid opinion on this, social services and adoption agencies are and they view LGBT parenthood as legal and positive.

            It seems to me you’re getting yourself all wound up over the equal marriage bill and soaking up the kool aid over the “harm it will do children”. You are simply betraying your ignorance.

            LGBT adoption has been legal since 2005 and even before that single gay men and women could adopt and later have a partner, or declare a partner and have them CRB checked.

      2. Floridahank 9 Jul 2013, 11:36pm

        My point is that perhaps a dog or cat can create a more harmonious family atmosphere than trying to make some sort of judgment that either a hetero or homo mix with children is more advantageous for the youngster. The studies that seem to be showing one preference over the other is still in the earliest stages and having homosexuals raise a youngster has not been shown to have any greater positive outcome. Don’t jump to conclusions without longitudinal studies to prove your point. Family interaction is a very complex entity and not enough time has been given to scientific studies to show any definitive outcome.

        1. bobbleobble 9 Jul 2013, 11:49pm

          So again have you read the studies and understood what they are saying or are you simply dismissing them because they aren’t saying what you’d like them to?

          And I still don’t see the relevance of the dog or cat.

        2. But you’re more than happy to jump to the conclusion that “traditional Christian marriage” (one that doesn’t follow the pattern of the purported family of the purported Christ himself) is best, aren’t you? (Or am I mixing you up with one of your fellow-trolls?)

          Forgive us if we tend to take Professor Lord Winston a little more seriously than some pseudonymous person living in Florida.

      3. “Not sure what the dog or cat has to do with anything though.”

        Because sooner or later we are all going to want to marry them OMGWTF Somebody think of the children!!!!!!!

        Or something along those lines…

    3. Sacre bleu 10 Jul 2013, 5:23am

      ‘ it’s not wise to make broad statements based on very limited studies.’

      A pity you don’t take your own advice and read more widely, not just the studies that tell you what you want to hear, nor the studies that are funded or promoted by groups with an agenda.

      Reading the ‘method’ part of the publication, ‘acknowledgements’ (of who provided the funding) and the reputation/goals of the publisher are critical as to whether you should bother investing the time to read the article.

  5. The trap Baroness O’Cathain has fallen into – as many other people against same-sex parenting have done – is to refer to research which looks at the outcomes of children raised outside of the “traditional” married heterosexual couple, which more often than not raises the difficulties of raising children as a single parent. By their twisted logic, somehow a single mother is equivalent to a lesbian couple and a single father equivalent to a male gay couple.

    This conveniently ignores the role poverty has to play in the outcomes of these children, which obviously has detrimental outcomes. But rather than seek ways to improve the welfare of children being raised in single-parent households, they spend their time using the evidence to bash single parents and same-sex couples, holding up married heterosexuals as the gold standard.

    As for Professor Lord Winston, I thought I couldn’t like him anymore than I already do and then he goes and does this – love him!

    1. bobbleobble 9 Jul 2013, 4:44pm

      The trap that she fell into is that she found a report that she believed said something negative about gay people and without bothering to do any further research on the topic simply ran with it even though in doing so she misled the House of Lords.

      All she needs to do is wave around her evidence and hope that nobody bothers to check it any more carefully than she did. After all these days it’s only the headlines that people read.

      It’s like Lord Dear and the report on Argentina that he mentions every times he speaks and the terrible changes that have gone on there since SSM was introduced (or what relevance that has to England and Wales). He hasn’t yet given any further details about the report or its author or given any indication about what these terrible changes are so everyone simply has to take his word for it. They do it when they talk about marriage rates in Spain and the Netherlands too.

      1. I’ve sent the EUROSTAT data on marriage rates across Europe over 5 decades, including the years since Spain introduced gay marrigae, to several Lords. Last data point has Spain and Italy level pegging depsite the chasm between them in terms of gay rights.

        Cathain and Dear rely on the lies put out by Christian Conern and that woman, Andrea Williams. (there are no words to describe my feelings about this woman, and Colin Hart of the so-called Christian Institute and also that odd bean-stalk on youtube and her Marriage Minute). It shows how important it is to counter act the lies through our level-headed supporters.

  6. Jock S. Trap 9 Jul 2013, 3:54pm

    I’m pleased this has been raised. I was disgusting by some of the nasty arguments but overall pleased with the progress this bill is making.

    I bet, though, when hearing this The Daily Mail readers (and Melanie Phillips) head exploded!! (we l can hope!)

  7. I would not take much notice from Lord Mengele Winston who has experimented, destroyed the unborn and burnt the corpses in incinerators – he knows nothing about parenting.

    To deny a child a mother and father is abuse and an obscene experiment .

    1. bobbleobble 9 Jul 2013, 9:48pm

      Yeah ignore science and stick with ignorance, that’s how people like you operate.

      Well done for finding an example of a gay man treating a child horrendously, of course there are no examples of heterosexuals doing the same now are there? Oh hold on, yes there are. Sexuality is no indication of parenting ability.

      1. …and your pseudo-science says that male and male can produce a child ? No you have to pay someone for their eggs , get a bunch of folk in white coats to fertilize them , kill the embryos that are ‘substandard’ : The Human Fertilisation and Embryology Authority has admitted that over the past 21 years 1.7 million embryonic human beings have been thrown away as a consequence of the immoral practice of in vitro fertilisation. Figures show that show for every woman who conceives a child through in vitro fertilisation, 15 embryos are made, and almost half of them are discarded during or after the process.

        Perfectly natural – I don’t think so .IVF is just as immoral for male and female couples .

        1. Do you really consider that an answer to bobbleobble’s comment? Your debating skills are appear to be as developed as your capacity for logic.

    2. Truly no debate is complete until someone with a level head posts something as balanced and rational as this. There is often a real temptation to get reactionary and start using language and rhetoric that wouldn’t look out of place in an Iranian tabloid but so glad to see you managed to resist.
      If that story you’ve linked is supposed be what you think typifies normal gay parents then surely people like the Wests and that German guy who imprisoned his daughter and fathered his own grandchildren must be typical of parenting in an opposite sex relationship? That logic is ridiculous but follows from yours surely. Obviously nobody should raise children, wolves should do it; worked out pretty well for Mowgli and Romulus.

    3. Sacre bleu 10 Jul 2013, 5:39am

      ‘To deny a child a mother and father is abuse and an obscene experiment .”

      Ray, where is your rage about fathers who walk out on their families, the widowed, divorced, separated, physical and emotional domestic abuse????

      And regarding your comment about discarded embryos – if you are so concerned why don’t you commit to raising them without subsidy from anyone else.

      Finally, I hope they find an inhabitable planet where you religious loons can go and practise your loony ideas. Love to see the place after a few generations with the inevitable 10 gay progeny and social tension because you are so self-righteous and inflexible.

    4. The fact that you choose to refer to someone who is jewish as “Mengele” says more about you than it does about them.

    5. he knows nothing about parenting

      Do you, Ray?

  8. I think gay people need to be balanced about this. There’s no a never ending stream of evidence to prove this. Most evidence suggests there’s no real difference which in itself proves why it’s so pointless trying to smear any one group over another.

    1. You’re right.

      What also needs to be recognised is that when (and especially during debates such as equal marriage) pseudo-evidence spews forth of how potentially damaging same sex adoption is to children, you need to be able to defend yourself. A sad indictment of society but there it is.

      Don’t forget that adopted or fostered children also access the media and some commentary can add to their feelings of negativity that already exist simply due to the fact they are no longer with their birth parents – for whatever reason.

      A link here shows the positives obtained through same sex adoption by Cambridge University:

      And another here provides a comprehensive list of abstracts:

  9. My partner and I have 2 kids, they are getting all grown up now, but they will never have to worry about being chucked out for being straight! They have their own minds and they decide their futures with guidance but not force… I believe our kids are well balanced and beautiful individuals, they are biologically mine and my partner is their step dad, so the idiot on here that says we cannot have bio children is sadly lacking in brain cells….. Our Kids are our world and come first in our decisions…. just as they should!

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