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UK: Jailed women in sexual ‘fraud’ case freed by Court of Appeal

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  1. This person should have been acquitted. Two young people over the age of consent had a consenting sexual relationship.

    Non-disclosure of gender history should not invalidate consent. End of.

    Is gender history something many people would wish to know about a sexual partner? Yes. Is it something which might change a decision about whether to have a sexual relationship? Yes.

    But so are a million other things. We don’t prosecute people who lie to get sex; if we locked up every married man who pretended to be single to get laid, there would be no prison cells left.

    Conversely a trans person concealing their gender history is likely doing so for their safety and dignity, and not as part of a sexual scheme.

    This was bad law and should be resolved by Parliament if the higher courts are not prepared to sort it out.

    But at least Justine McNally is no longer in prison.

    1. You can’t give informed concent if you aren’t informed.
      This was pretty clearly deception, ever tactic was used to hide the truth

      1. friday jones 13 Jun 2013, 10:56pm

        I’ll believe that tripe the day that you dudebros find it necessary to reveal to any potential sex partner EVERY reason that that person MIGHT not want to have sex with you, even though they currently seem willing or even eager. You hypocritical piece of transphobic dung.

  2. Julian Morrison 13 Jun 2013, 2:31pm

    PinkNews, you are misgendering him. An AFAB person who “wanted to have gender confirmation treatment” is a TRANS MAN.

    1. OneFrogCan 13 Jun 2013, 4:22pm

      Agree this article is rife with pronoun troubles. It reads much differently when a person who identified himself as Scott at age 13 is correctly referred to as “he” and “him.”

      Also, how old was the “pink” photo on FB that Scott pointed out to the dynamic duo? Doesn’t sound like much was hidden if Scott shared the photo-history of his journey on FB. I’m sensing the heavy hand of an embarrassed parent wanting a “normal” child, not a lack of consensuality or even awareness on the daughter’s part.

      And when the article identifies Master McNally as Justine, is that because he hasn’t legally changed his name yet or has he gone back to referring to himself as Justine?

      This article lacks more than just masculine pronouns.

  3. This wasnt a 100% male having sex with a straight female. Justine was pre-op and lied, claiming to be male and used deception to pretend to be.

    I dont know if this is news but straight females do not want to have sex with with people who are physically female. What the trans person considers themself is not the point. Down vote me all you like, its the reality. Most people do not want to have sex with a trans person.

    Im 100% for trans rights, but common sense needs to prevail here.

    1. Julian Morrison 13 Jun 2013, 3:57pm

      Your transphobia is disgusting.

      1. How dare you! The whole time the girl was led to believe Justine was a genetic male. Sorry, but it DOES matter, if it didn’t matter, why to trans people transition? Answer that one. You cant have a double standard and expect people to swallow it.

      2. I fail to understand what is supposed to be ‘transphobic’ about ChrisB’s comment. It is a fact that heterosexual people generally do not want to shag or be shagged by persons of the same sex.

        Aside from that, however, the sentence in this case seems absurd and it doesn’t read to me that this person (whatever hir name or gender) deserved either imprisonment or being placed on the SOR.

    2. OneFrogCan 13 Jun 2013, 5:02pm

      This was a 4 year relationship that culminated in sex, as many good relationships do. Pansexuality is about attraction to a person from the inside out, which, if you think about it is how all relationships are formed, unless you’re very shallow and meeting your partners in nudist colonies.

      We’re attracted to personality, cadence of voice, gentleness of eyes, warmth of smile, carriage… Genitalia are accessories. Typically clothes don’t come off until an attraction has already been established…again, unless you’re meeting your partners in nudist colonies or on specially designated beaches.

      Who among us hasn’t been surprised and/or disappointed at least once when clothing is shed? …straight women in particular.

      With an established relationship, mutual attraction, and the right size strap-on, I think you’d be surprised what a “straight” woman might do.

      1. Genitals DO matter, plus the entire relationship was based on a lie. Justine couldnt be honest the whole time.

        As a gay man if the other guy doesn’t have the right bits, its over. Call me shallow if you like, but its important, and not one person ive talked to about this disagrees, not one.

        The trans community doesn’t seem to realise that clearly genitals do matter, if they didn’t why bother transitioning?

        1. OneFrogCan 13 Jun 2013, 8:10pm

          Chris, you haven’t talked to a pan-sexual individual yet. Take it from the mother of a son whose first love interest was a girl named Wesley. He was attracted to Wesley’s femininity. The caring relationship was there. The physical attraction was there. Bits truly didn’t matter. As far as giving and receiving pleasure, they were both on familiar ground. Find a pan-sexual to talk to and you’ll find that flexibility. The attraction is to the person on the inside.

          Not all trans-genders transition. It depends on their comfort level in their own skin vs. what they know to be true about themselves. Wesley has always been open and accepted for who she is. Her friends are very protective of her. She may not feel a need to spend the money to transition physically.

          Justine/Scott (his current moniker is still unclear to me) feels the need to reconcile his physicality with his gender identity.

          1. NEWSFLASH.. Most people arent pansexual so your point is mute. Why dont trans people understand? I find it really hard to grasp why a trans person doesnt get the problem. As a gay man I want a genetic male with everything that means. A trans man will not do, especially if that person is still physically female.

            If i was that girl i would feel cheated, and injured. She invested time and emotion into what she thought was a boy, physically AND mentally. It is NO different than ‘dating’ online only to find out that the person is totally different to the person they claimed to be.

            I really dont have a problem with transexuals, but they HAVE TO be honest about who they are and understand that a person may feel hurt if they find out after an emotional bond has been formed and even more so if sexual contact of some form has occured.

          2. ChrisB, you say you want a “genetic male”, but I doubt you have a way of detecting potential partners’ genes, so that probably isn’t what you really mean. I don’t think there is really a foolproof way of telling a trans man apart from a cis man (a trans man would almost certainly have small, non-fully functional genitals, but then a cis man might do too). So either (a) there are some trans men you would be happy to have a relationship with or (b) it isn’t really them being trans, per se, that you have a problem with.

        2. OneFrogCan 13 Jun 2013, 8:38pm

          Chris, you haven’t yet talked to a pan-sexual individual. Flexibility exists. Take if from the mother of son whose first love interest was a girl named Wesley. He was attracted to Wesley’s femininity. The relationship was there. The physical attraction was there. Bits didn’t matter. As far as giving and receiving pleasure, they were both on familiar ground.

          Not all trans-genders choose to transition physically. It depends on comfort level in one’s own skin vs. knowing who one truly is. Wesley has always known she’s a girl regardless of her body. She’s open about who she is and her friends accept and are fiercely protective of her. She may not feel a need to spend the money to reconcile her physicality to her gender identity.

          Scott/Justine (I’m still not sure of his current moniker) has expressed a need to reconcile his body with his gender identity, so he’ll transition.

        3. As another gay man, there’s nothing wrong with feeling that genitals are important, but there is no reason for the law to consider them uniquely important. If a man with a beer belly says he has a six-pack, or someone earning 20K a year says they earn 200K a year, or a married person says they are single, to get someone into bed, then the relationship would be based on a lie, but there would be no question of them being sent to prison or placed on the sex offenders’ register.

  4. So if a man feels he’s lied into sleeping with a woman who has fake boobs, he could sue her and the court would sentence this woman as well, no? Let’s also not forget who young Scott was back then. This case reeks of poor logics.

    1. OneFrogCan 13 Jun 2013, 6:23pm

      Double standard and unequal protection under the law.

    2. Thats totally different and you know it.

  5. friday jones 13 Jun 2013, 11:08pm

    Know what a civilized person would have done had they discovered that their partner was trans and found it a big turn-off for whatever reason? BREAK UP WITH THE PARTNER. Not call the cops and have their partner arrested for sexual offenses based on mutually enjoyed previous encounters.

    Trans people do not own anyone access to their medical histories any more than diabetics, epileptics, or manic-depressives are. Imagine having someone arrested for sex crimes because they didn’t reveal that they had a third nipple until it was “too late.”

    People need to manage their own squicks, and keep the damn homophobic transphobic cops out of consensual relations. And yes, it WAS consensual, I seriously doubt that that Scott McNally made any claims to being born a male, he just allowed his partner to assume that he was, just as most of you folks out there falsely allow your partners to assume that you’re not neurotic honeytraps yourselves. :p

  6. “Non-disclosure of gender history should not invalidate consent”

    It’s curious you use the word history in the sentence.

    When you wear a plastic penis are you not disclosing your gender history?

    If Fraud is not illegal now, there should be a law against it.

  7. I wrote a blog post about this which hopefully answers most (if not all) of the positions above – http://bit.ly/1g4O5dT

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