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UK: Islamic Cambridge lecturer apologies for describing homosexuality as ‘ugly’ and calling gay people ‘ignorant’

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  1. Robert in S. Kensington 2 May 2013, 12:59pm

    All of these religious nutters seem to back pedal when caught out. The thing is, why does it take exposure like this to induce an apology? Why is it not voluntarily forthcoming if he’s somewhat evolved? I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt but is this more to do with saving face, his job and livelihood than anything else?

    1. Yes, it’d have been more impressive if he’d already publicly distanced himself from the attitudes he was filmed promoting in the past.

    2. i agree its more about saving his job than a change of view, and if the report is correct in saying he still goes to these so called retreats with other zealots then he obviously holds them same views

      1. If a 15 year old girl has to resign from a Police Youth Commissioner post because of thing she publicly wrote on twitter that were “views she no longer holds”, this homophobic, insulting man who is in a position of authority and who teaches in a top university should definitely be made to do the same. Shameful.

        1. Good point. This chap doesn’t teach at the University of Cambridge, though – it’s an unconnected college in Cambridge.

          1. That’s not true. He is a a lecturer in the Divinity department at Cambridge and is affilianted with Wolfson, one of the graduate colleges. People can email the president of Wolfson College (Prof. Sir Richard Evans) at rje36@cam.ac.uk

          2. Thanks for the correction, Amir – I only looked up Cambridge Muslim College, my mistake.

  2. Well, he’s going to have difficulties now, down at the local mosque, with a good number of his Muslim mates.

    “But you were right, Tim”, they’re going to tell him. “And you say you no longer believe that homosexuality is wrong? What kind of a Muslim are you!”

    And so he’ll have some fancy dancing at the mosque as well as in front of his Cambridge students.

    But, well done, Cambridge students, for calling this deluded man to account.

    I find their action heartening, given that the other month I discovered a vast new college being built on the banks of the Cherwell, in Oxford – “The Oxford Centre for Islamic Studies”. See pics below:

    http://www.oxcis.ac.uk/model.html

    http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/p480x480/554812_323919001002549_1318373520_n.jpg

    1. I note he only said he doesn’t hold THOSE views anymore. He hasn’t said what his views are now.

      Plenty of wiggle room.

  3. Sack the ignorant, Islamic bigot. He is not fit to be in an English, or any other, university. Islam is an evil religion perhaps worse than Roman Catholicism.

    1. That There Other David 2 May 2013, 1:36pm

      Xenophobia much? From my point of view these cults are all as bad as each other. The only difference in attitudes comes from how far the individuals who follow them want to immerse themselves in the madness.

      1. Islam is not an ethnicity – it is a freely chosen, voluntary and entirely moronic belief system for stupid people (as is christianity; judaism; hinduism and sikhism and the rest.

        Calling a belief system evil is not xenophobic.

        1. Quite right. There is also no such thing as islamophobia because fear of islam is perfectly rational, not irrational.

          We have every reason to be concerned about it. He says himself that he was “in the grip of a kind of zealot enthusiasm”. This is exactly where terrorism starts out. He claims to have changed since then so what is he preaching to his students now? And has he found his old students and told them that what he taught them back then isn’t the case any more? How much damage has this man already done?

      2. David, you too could become a Muslim, you know. Quite easily. And if I rebuked you for doing so, for believing in a silly non-existent Arabian Pixie in the Sky, it wouldn’t be xenophobia, would it, because it would be the Pixie bit that I would be rebuking you for believing in.

      3. You need to look up the definition of xenophobia. Also, all religions may be equally nonsensical but that doesn’t make them all equally vicious. Who would you rather have as a neighbour, an Anglican vicar, a reform rabbi or a salafi imam? Or has moral relativism destroyed your ability to think?

    2. Unfortunately, as far as universities go, the 3 oldest degree-granting institutions (predating the coinage of the word ‘university’) in the world were Islamic foundations – al-Karaouine (Fez), al-Azhar (Cairo) and the Nizamiyya (Baghdad).

      1. Christopher Coleman 2 May 2013, 3:08pm

        That was a time when the Arab world made great contributions to the world of learning. The West has also enjoyed a prolonged period of enlightenment. Even today people are adding to the store of knowledge, regardless of their religious affiliations and beliefs. The problem is that the freedom and ease of self expression is allowing individuals and marginal groups to voice any and every biased opinion and use religion to defend their prejudices. Fortunately, most cultured societies now condemn such behaviour. We must continue to press for stricter laws that will encourage people to keep most of their opinions to themselves. Views that advance society and add to the sum of human happiness are always welcome. The other kind should remain private, regardless of whether they are motivated by religious belief or other ideas, such as racial superiority. Sincerity is no justification.

        1. Unquestionably – I was merely pointing out that, whatever the present state of affairs, Islam was not always associated with ignorance or backwardness.

          1. But it is now which is what matters.

          2. Dave north 2 May 2013, 4:39pm

            Yes.

            But like most religions, over the decades its followers corrupt it to suit their own prejudices.

          3. …I agree, if only Islam went back all those years ago when it embraced art & love.

        2. ‘We must continue to press for stricter laws that will encourage people to keep most of their opinions to themselves.’

          And who decides which opinions people have to keep to themselves. That’s a very dangerous line of thought, followed only by the most oppressive regimes.

          1. Christopher Coleman 2 May 2013, 4:53pm

            Opinions that hurt and degrade other people who are simply living their lives in peace. There is a world of difference between a rational discussion of an issue (immigration, for example) and objectionable comments about immigrants who happen to be, let’s say, dark skinned. All of us have experienced occasions when we have chosen to remain silent. That’s all I am asking for. Freedom is a good thing, to be used to the advantage of society and every individual, but freedom is not license. And our societies are civilized precisely because we consent, through the law, to limit our freedoms out of respect for each other. However, I draw the line at politicians and others in positions of power and influence. Because they have chosen to be public figures, they must be open to public criticism of the harshest kind.

      2. Jean-Paul 2 May 2013, 3:28pm

        Yes, moreover the Muslim universities of the 8-12th centuries did preserve the teachings of ancient Greek philosophy as Europe stewed in the Dark Ages.

        Still, I suspect these old Muslim Universities were framed in Sharia Law just as medieval western universities were framed in Christianity. While most Universities today tend to be secular, a Muslim education is still framed in Sharia Law which, among other things, does condemn homosexuality.

        In view of that, it is likely that Tim Winters is using this tangled situation to give his students a lesson in Taqiyya.

      3. “the 3 oldest degree-granting institutions (predating the coinage of the word ‘university’) in the world were Islamic foundations”

        As if you can compare a degree from those arabic universities with a modern degree. And the buddhist university at Nalanda predated any muslim university by 100s of years. Where is Nalanda now? Burned to the ground by muslims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nalanda Oh yes, muslims really appreciate education and diversity.

        Islam contributed nothing to civilisation. It stole everything from other civilisations (Persia, India) and religions (judaism, christianity). Even the “arabic” numerals are actually Hindu numerals.

        1. History is a matter of records, and in that respect unfortunately Nalanda doesn’t rank among the institutions we’re referring to.

          I’m no lover of Islam, far from it, but anyone who seriously submits that “Islam contributed nothing to civilisation” is wholly ignorant of history.

          1. Go ahead. List what islam contributed to civilisation (and that it didn’t take from some other culture).

            I’ll start you off. The first anti-jewish pogroms in Europe were conducted by muslims. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom#Medieval So, islam gave us violent jew-hatred.

            Slavery was being progressively removed from European cultures. The trans-atlantic slave trade started in Portugal in the 16th century. Portugal and Spain had been under almost 600 years of islamic occupation/islamisation. So, islam brought slavery back to Europe.

            Islam claims to be a continuation of Judaism and Christianity. Whilst the New Testament brought reform to Judaism, what did islam bring? It sought to remove ALL reform from the Abrahamic religions, returning them to the morals and behaviour of the Bronze Age.

            Let’s see your list of contributions.

          2. And since muslims destroyed Nalanda, where are the records of what was taught there? On what basis are you qualified to talk about the status of Nalanda? Buddhism offers far more philsophical and psychological insights than islam ever has. Historians (such as Edward Conze) say that buddhism died 1000 years ago, following the islamic destruction of libraries, monasteries and the genocide against buddhist monks. Clearly you have a time machine and a knowlege of ancient Indian languages that permits you to travel back before that destruction and decide on the value of what was destroyed.

          3. The role of Muslim scholars in preserving, translating and considering the ideas of classical Greek texts, particularly in the fields of medicine and philosophy, at a time that Christian rulers were uninterested in anything considered ‘pagan’ is widely recognised by disinterested people today. Agriculture and irrigation techniques introduced by Muslims to Spain and Sicily were infinitely more sophisticated than what the Christians replaced it with (which resulted in the general barrenness of so many parts of Southern Spain today). In architecture you can look to the pointed arch introduced by the ‘Moors’ and its influence in the development of the Gothic arch, and the frescoes uncovered at Durham cathedral suggest the international value of obviously Muslim architects and builders. In textiles, ceramics and metalworking the levels of artistry fostered in Islamic courts is too obvious to need mention.

          4. And is it your time machine that enables you to evaluate what was destroyed at Nalanda? Incidentally, it will come as a surprise to the majority of people in Sri Lanka that Buddhism was destroyed 1000 years ago (though it was pretty much wiped out in many parts of the island by the Portuguese in the 16c.)

            The fact that you even try to blame Portuguese slave-trading on Muslims shows your deranged bias more clearly than anything else. A bit of calm and the development of the capacity to reason would be of assistance.

  4. Robert in S. Kensington 2 May 2013, 1:34pm

    Now let’s wait and see if UK Muslim clerics condemn him for apologising and how he’ll react to it. That will prove how genuine he really is.

    1. Jean-Paul 2 May 2013, 4:56pm

      We have to remember that lying to infidels is NOT a sin in Islam.

  5. That a magic-boggled dimwit has the gall to call anyone “ignorant” never, ever fails to make me laugh. Enjoy your asinine hocus pocus, idiot.

  6. Dave North 2 May 2013, 2:24pm

    ….”says gay people are “ignorant people who don’t know what their bodies are for”.

    We know only to well what our bodies are for and what they are attracted to.

    I would say it would be much MORE “ignorant” to act against what our bodies are telling us you foolish IGNORANT god bothering drone.

    1. Mister Fister 2 May 2013, 3:44pm

      It could be said that muslims do not know what their bodies are for as they mutiate their genitals. Male and female circumcision is widely practised in Islam. I think that most people know why they have a foreskin or clitoris – so who exactly are the ‘ignorant people’ now?

      1. You obviously are if you think a comparison can be made between male and female circumcision.

        Maybe you should spend less time displaying your ignorance and more time attending to your penile hygiene.

  7. Cambridge has obviously dropped standards dramatically, if this fascist is still employed by the university. I was in Cambridge a few months ago and saw posters of a protest against marine le pen who was due at a debate there. I wonder will there be the same student outrage at what’s going on in their own yard, or is this bigot exempt because he’s a brainwashed convert muslim, and islam appears to be above any critique in this country.

  8. “I have explained to the students that the YouTube clip they understandably objected to was at least 15 years old, and represented views I no longer hold.”

    Mr Winter a.k.a. Abdal Hakim Murad should explain to the students and the rest of us what his current position about homosexuality and gay people are?

    We are waiting for a clear answer.

    1. Christopher Coleman 2 May 2013, 3:10pm

      Indeed! He should be required to make a public statement that clearly defines his current view of LGBT people and social equality.

    2. And why he hasn’t deleted the 15 year old video when his views changed.

    3. Jean-Paul 2 May 2013, 3:38pm

      Devout Muslims are obliged to follow Sharia Law to the best of their ability if they expect a place in heaven.

      How is that not clear?

    4. tomchicago 2 May 2013, 3:49pm

      I imagine that it would be quite a curious dance to behold: maintaining his Muslim creds while opening his arms to gay people.

    5. Vee, you are spot on correct. He must state his ‘current’ ‘evolved’ position on gay matters, in light of his Islamic faith, and his ‘evolution’ — thanks for narrowing in on the matter.

  9. What are his current views? Saying they no longer represent his current views don’t tell us what he currently believes. I don’t trust the guy.

  10. Why is it we give these religious nutters the time of day. What is it about their fairytale existence of their deity in the sky BS. That allows the rest of us to just shrivel up and let them have free reign to spread their victrol and malicious gossip about anyone. Would we allow some nutcase who just had a close encounter with an alien in a cowpaddie filled farm. To have as much influence over our young people. I don`t see the universities rushing out to sign up people or professors to engage in extra terrestrials 101. Why do the rest of us sheep allow this cult driven drivel to exist in our higher learning institutions.

    1. Michael 2912 2 May 2013, 4:24pm

      The problem of course is that whether we like it or not the Abrahamic religions do have a massive amount of influence in both the east and the west. The challenge for us is how we mitigate their worst effects upon our communities and the societies in which they are embedded. We perhaps have something of a luxury in the UK in that we can criticise them openly without fear of reproach and, to some extent, ignore them or cherry-pick (as many RCs seem to do) but others aren’t so fortunate. Even we have to tolerate bishops in the House of Lords and a monarch who is the head of the established church as well as the head of state. Given the choice – I wouldn’t start from here!

      1. Jean-Paul 2 May 2013, 5:42pm

        It seems to me that we are living up to the challenge of mitigating the worst effects of Judaism and Christianity upon our communities and societies precisely because we are free to criticize religion, and we have the right to re-interpret so-called sacred texts by contextualizing them. In fact, we also have every right to disbelieve the narratives.

        Muslims have no such freedom, and Tim Winters is perfectly aware of that. When Winters condemned homosexuals as inherently disordered, his mistake was publicizing his belief in the west, not being overly zealous as regards Shari’ah.

        Appeasing Muslims by allowing them universities in the west to intentionally warp the minds of young people who were accidentally born into Islam represents a complete failure to take the tangible objectives of Islam seriously, e.i. to mitigate, if not to eradicate, the effects of other religions and of atheism on our communities.

        1. Seems to me for the damage religion has done throughout history. It should all be swept into the dustbin of time. And maybe just maybe, should be taught in a university as a course on what not to do to control the minds of human beings. Then at least it would serve some useful and educational purpose.And it should not be taught by clergy or theologians but history professors. With an objective view. Much as we teach about , rocks or dinosaurs.

  11. Tom Cotner 2 May 2013, 3:10pm

    For one to refer to gay people as “ignorant” is tantamount to exposing one’s own attitudes and beliefs as not only ignorant, but totally stupid.
    Ignorance refers to uninformed.
    Stupidity refers to an inability to become informed.

  12. Robert (Kettering) 2 May 2013, 3:22pm

    A Convert is often the worst of the lot for being a religious zealot. This ignorant bigot should keep his trap shut. Also he looks ridiculous in that turban!

  13. Yes it’s all about saving face and of course his job. Obviously just another religious nutter.

  14. tomchicago 2 May 2013, 3:46pm

    I am curious about what views he DOES now hold…well, not really.

  15. Janet Lameck 2 May 2013, 3:47pm

    Personally I feel that straight people are the queers (weird & unusual).

  16. Michael 2912 2 May 2013, 4:17pm

    This silly and cowardly man is rightly damned whichever way he jumps. As Tony Benn always says – in public life you should say what you think, believe what you say and…(not relevant here).

    As modern and rather clumsy parlance has it – he’s not fit for purpose: be that as a Muslim or as an academic.

  17. Gene Touchet 2 May 2013, 4:33pm

    For certain one “inherent aberration” is treating metaphors as some sort of truth.

  18. Michael 2912 2 May 2013, 4:48pm

    I’ve now just seen the video clip on the Daily Mail website. He uses a very poor and one-sided logical argument to demonstrate that homosexuality should not be made legal. The tendency to commit arson, he says, has been found to have a genetic basis, just as homosexuality has yet there is no call for the legalisation of arson. It follows that the argument from nature cannot support legalisation.

    I’ll be interested to see how he now approaches this. The view is of course crass. The call for leglisation does not derive from the natural state premiss. The call for legalisation derives from a “human rights and non-interference with activiites that cause no harm and which are freely chosen” premiss. His position could only be accepted by someone who was already inclined, for other reasons, to share it. It has absolutely no persuasive force. He’s either a very poor academic or he has utter contempt for those he addresses.

    1. Jean-Paul 2 May 2013, 5:54pm

      … or Shari’ah is the only source of human rights for him while he perceives the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a failure to take into account the cultural and religious contexts of non-western countries.

      Tim Winters has been caught in a lie, a lie inspired by Taquiya.

    2. He clearly is not terribly smart. Probably studying crazy religions do that to your intellect. He needs to be fired or at least forced to make an unconditional apology, not this sort of nonsensical one.

  19. There was a time when statements, such as his, were made verbally and it was up to the accuser to prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. Because we all now live in the age of the internet, once you hit that enter key, it’s there forever and someone, somewhere, will always have a copy of it.

    His claim that his thinking has evolved, is at best, foolish. Zealotry and reason are mutually exclusive terms and the former will never countenance reason for the simple fact that it must defend its position as right no matter how eloquently reason proves otherwise.

    More simply put is a phrase once shared with me by a dear lady friend; “Be careful of what you say, and to whom you say it, for it takes a fool to make a fool act the fool.”

  20. Deanna Joy 2 May 2013, 7:08pm

    It is so unfortunate that zealotry within a religious faith is construed to be representative of the way most of the adherents to that faith profess their beliefs. It seems to as true here as it has been for other tragic events in recent memory such as 9-11-2001 or the statements of a few zealot Christian ministers who have spoken out against gender diversity.
    Apart from that, I agree that it raises suspicion that this lecturer waited until after his past zealous beliefs came back to haunt him to recant because as human beings, we are all worthy of forgiveness, so long as we make amends for our past mistakes beyond simply apologizing publicly.

    1. Jean-Paul 2 May 2013, 9:32pm

      It is true that Muslims are encouraged to forgive sins, except when behavior which is considered evil is repeated time and time and time again. In that case, there is no forgiveness, neither on earth, or in the ever-after.

      Also, there is no such thing as forgiving infidels, heretics and apostates.

  21. Islam = Fascism.

    I’m just so tired of the race card being used to justify this ghastly religion…If only Islam was a largely white European faith then it would get criticism it deserves.

    1. I know what you mean. However if islam was a largely white European faith it wouldn’t get the ctriticism it deserves either as we would already be living under sharia law and terrified on the pain of execution to criticise it.

      It really is the most miserable anti-human religion ever invented. (And it has some competition). It is anti everything good about humanity. Art, music, dance, humour, and life itself. A death cult pure and simple.

      As they often say, we in the West value life they value death. Says it all. The Middle East is currently aflame with muslims killing muslims, by the thousands. You wouldn’t think it though from their rhetoric. You would think the Americans are the biggest killers.

      The muslims are victims. But victims of their own religion.

      1. “A white European faith”? Like Germanic/Norse paganism, the Ancient Greek and Roman religions and the Celtic pagan religions? The last time I checked Christianity started out as an offshoot from Judaism and originated in the Middle East. The Abrahamic religions which Christianity, Judaism and Islam belong to are Middle Eastern.

    2. Daniel, if you say Islam is fascist, then hopefully you would also say exactly the same thing of all the other cults, like . . . Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism, the Baha’i Faith, the Unification Church, Spiritism, the Sumerian religion, Cheondoism, Druidism, Druze, the Ancient Egyptian religion, the Etruscan religion, the Polytheism of Ancient Greece, Hermeticism, Atenism, LaVeyan Satanism, Mandaeanism, Manichaeism, Meher Baba, New Age religions, Orphism, the Rastafari movement, Ravidassia, Samaritanism, Scientology, Shinto, the Native American Church, Swedenborgianism, Taoism, Tenrikyo, Thelema, Urantianism, Wicca, Yarsan, Yazidi, Bon, Yoruba, Asatru, Ayyavazhi, and Zoroastrianism.

      1. Again with the relativism. Who would be more likely to blow up a bus full of people, a Mormon or a Muslim? People like you are as bad as jihadis. You are their enablers. If they’re all equal why don’t you book a gay holiday in Saudi?

        1. Really? What exactly was used as an excuse for unspeakable brutality in Northern Ireland in recent decades? Mormonism? Islam?

      2. Oh Yawn Eddy….back to the subject please.

    3. gary Potter 2 May 2013, 9:05pm

      What a thought, a load of old white muslims….ha ha ha. Well said.

    4. “A white European faith”? Like Germanic/Norse paganism, the Ancient Greek and Roman religions and the Celtic pagan religions? The last time I checked Christianity started out as an offshoot from Judaism and originated in the Middle East. The Abrahamic religions which Christianity, Judaism and Islam belong to are Middle Eastern.

    5. Mawdudi is considered by muslims to have been the greatest islamic thinker of the 20th century. The Muslim Council of Britain sued the BBC when Panorama exposed Mawdudi proudly admitting that the islamic state is a fascist state. http://news.bbc.co.uk/newswatch/ifs/hi/newsid_4290000/newsid_4290800/4290840.stm

      They don’t want us to know the truth about this evil ideology. Go and read The Life of Mohammed. It’s one of their holy books, and proudly describes how Mohammed beheaded 900 jews in 1 day, then sold their wives & children off as slaves. If you read 1 page of an islamic text this is the page to read: http://www.scribd.com/doc/27156626/The-Earliest-Biography-of-Muhammad-By-Ibn-Ishaq#outer_page_89

  22. Deanna Joy 2 May 2013, 8:03pm

    “The old law of an eye for an eye leaves everybody blind. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding. It seeks to annihilate rather than to convert.
    From “The Words of Martin Luther King, Jr,” published in 1984.

  23. gary Potter 2 May 2013, 9:02pm

    Never accept him saying sorry as he will not mean it at all, they are like snakes.smiling but ready to kill you.They are told from an early age just to LIE and thats what they do and all ways will do. Leying dirty filthy perverted bast***s.

  24. Twitless, all the Abrahamic religions share brutality and have a history of oppression, Islam treats women and gay people appallingly, indeed the Middle Eastern countries arguably have the worst rights for women in the world. That said look at Christianity’s history; the Inquistition, the burning of heretics and it’s own subjugation of women. Besides, how many millions of people were killed by the Spanish conquistadors who brutally and forcefully converted the native people in Central America? You mention the the United States, well wasn’t that too a country that was founded upon the deaths of millions of native tribes? You also mention that in the west we “value life”, wasn’t Europe the starting point for the two most brutal wars of the 20th century? Just looking for a little consistency here.

  25. The bigot needs to be fired, not just for his repulsive ideas, but also for his ignorance and stupidity. Someone who knows so little about human sexuality has no business teaching at a distinguished university.

    1. “distinguished university”? obviously Cambridge has now joined the dumbing down of education mass.

  26. “Ignorant”? He shouldn’t knock ignorance, religion thrives on it.

  27. I do not understand why this story is being swept under the rug. This joker needs to be fired. Where is Peter Tatchell when we need him?

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