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Peter Tatchell: Being invited to Lambeth Palace by Justin Welby represents LGBT progress

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  1. To be honest, this article doesn’t really say a lot that hasn’t been said before, does it? It’d be nice to have a blow by blow account of exactly what was said, a kind of Q&A thing. I recognise the progress of the meeting’s symbolism, but its actual effects are wanting.

    “I hear what you say,” says Mr Welby. Yet he chooses to ignore the vast majority of gay people. Well, we hear what you say Mr Welby, and we choose to ignore that too.

    Catherine Tate’s ‘Nan’ character’s famous line comes to mind!

    1. Marcwebbo3 18 Apr 2013, 7:51pm

      I cant see how this is progress….it hasnt changed anything nor does it seem like it will

    2. So in essence he agrees straight people should get more choice but thinks we should get less. But he’s not sure why, he just knows he’s right.

      What an irrelevant man and an irrelevant institution. Is this really the best this man can come up with?

      This is just a description of bigotry, pure and simple.

      It’s no different to just saying “I don’t like foreigners, don’t know why, they’re just different, and I defend my right to be prejudiced.”

  2. You can’t cut cards with hate.

    But you can increase your celebrity status by trying.

  3. Well done, Peter. Thanks for the report, and I was glad to see that The Guardian has quoted your report well too.

    It seems you brought Mr. Welby to focus on precisely WHY he insists that homosexual people have a different kind of love from heterosexual people. Hopefully he will continue to focus on that.

    Keep at it. Dialogue and slowly chipping away is the only way to achieve success.

    1. I support Peter every time but really all he did this time was to get Welby to outline and confirm his irrational prejudice.

      At least we now have it in black and white.

      1. I think what was achieved was that Peter and Mr. Welby both SAW what the sticking point is, and it appears that Peter repeatedly sought to have Mr. Welby explain why the love that homosexuals feel is different from the love that heterosexuals feel. It seems to me that Peter brought Mr. Welby face to face with the fact that he couldn’t explain his position other than via some homophobic stance or reference to the physical mechanics of gay or lesbian sex. This was helpful. This is an advance. The exact problem has been highlighted. We know now what the sticking point is and, hopefully, we will now all turn our minds to how we can help Mr. Welby over his difficulty.

  4. Robert in S. Kensington 18 Apr 2013, 8:15pm

    I know what the difference is but Welby doesn’t have the courage to admit it. It’s the sexual plumbing and procreation nonsense, the icky part of our sexual relationships he can’t get his head around.

    As for having to think about issuing an apology or express regret for the homophobia his cult has been a part of, that tells you what we’re dealing with. A man with no integrity of common decency.

    That he supports CPs for straights and yet believes civil marriage for gay couples is wrong, that also tells you he believes that heterosexuals should have more rights than gay people, bigotry is a better word for it.

    That he thinks opposing civil marriage for gay couples isn’t discrimination is deeply disturbing. I see no further point in having dialogue with the man.

    The only positive thing is that he agreed to meet with Peter but that’s where it ends. I’m sure many god botherers won’t like it that Welby met with him either.

    How dare he call the equal marriage bill ‘bad’.

  5. I agree with Mr. Thatchell that this is progress for the CoE. It is a major step forward in their campaign to appear to be kinder, gentler homophobes. It is not, however, progress for gay people in the UK. A major mouthpiece for Gay, LLC has pronounced that this man who is actively using his considerable power to oppress gay people is “genuine, sincere, open-minded”. This will go a long way towards making the hate he spews in the future seem just that much more reasonable to many people.

  6. dorset bob 18 Apr 2013, 8:39pm

    The problem Peter is up against here is that he is arguing from a perfectly rational position, all of his statements make sense. Welby , unfortunately , is listening to god and refering to the bible for his opinion.Thats why he refuses to see sense. He dosent seem stupid which makes it even worse really.

    1. Dorset bob, One has to speak the language of bible to Welby and the likes as that is what they are trained and will respond to – unfortunately – good news there is a way to victory via bible speak.

      1. No, the subject is civil law and the intrusion of an historically discriminatory and oppressive church into the legal rights of people who disavow said church.

        When talking to people like Welby the only language required is demanding non-religious discourse and insistence that they have no more say in the laws of the land than any other commoner.

    2. Colin (London) 21 Apr 2013, 12:28pm

      God – fairy stories mmm

  7. We all know this meeting isn’t going to change the CofE’s policy on marriage, at least not in the short term.

    But if this meeting helps persuade the CofE to intervene to help LGBT Africans, it could save lives.

    It’s a political knot for the Archbishop, but he seems to like blunt talking. Maybe he’ll do the right thing. Or maybe he’ll stand back while the church in Africa promotes execution and imprisonment of gays.

    I wonder what the Archbishop thinks Jesus would do. Would he agree with Martin Ssempa and Rebecca Kadaga? Or with Desmond Tutu and Christopher Senyonjo?

    1. atalanta,

      I very much wish this were true, but someone who can’t even come up with a provisional apology for the damage his church has done in the past or accept the word discrimination isn’t going to fight the homophobic forces in Africa or anywhere else.

  8. Discrimination is not a Christian value yet Christians continue to discriminate

    Nope – don’t buy it. The biggest forces of bigotry against GBLT people are from organised religion. discrimination IS a Christian value. But because we put the church on a pedestal we let people like Welby dodge around this. What has this achieved except be another PR coup for Welby pretending the fact he’s torn by being a bigot makes his bigotry somehow ok?

  9. Welby sounds like a snivelling bigot.

    This is not progress.

    Progress will come when there is separation of church and state and those bishop bigots are kicked out of the unelected House of Lords, as they have no right or mandate to be perverting our democracy.

    Welby is a minnow of a human being.

    While he opposes equal civil rights for LGBT people. he is an enemy that should not be trusted.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 18 Apr 2013, 11:45pm

      Totally concur with that, well said!

  10. To be honest, I don’t agree with Peter on one thing. Discrimination is one of Christianity’s most prominent virtues. Anybody with a basic knowledge of history, current events and even the Bible itself will testify to that.

    To say that it isn’t is simply politically correct pandering to people who rely upon pre-wheel traditions to guide their morality.

  11. Dave North 19 Apr 2013, 9:32am

    Welby is a stinking little bigot because his deity told him so.

    Tatchell should not even be discussing MY rights with this snivelling little ignoramus as CIVIL rights are none of his business.

    I care not one jot the opinion of an old man in drag who believes in sky patrons based on a 2000 year old book written by ignorant uneducated goat herders.

    Talk to politicians Tatchell.

    Not these mentally ill deity believers.

  12. To reduce Mr. Welby’s argument to basics, it appears that for Mr. Welby it could be that

    vaginal intercourse = marriage
    anal intercourse = Civil Partnership

    But how then can Mr. Welby feel that heterosexuals have a right to CPs, for that position suggests he believes that heterosexuals have a right to a contract that is centred upon anal intercourse!

    So, it looks like Mr. Welby accepts that heterosexuals participate in both vaginal and anal intercourse, as indeed they do! But somehow he can’t get his head round people who don’t do vaginal at all!

    So it looks like the problem is Mr. W’s obsession with the vagina.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 19 Apr 2013, 12:23pm

      Agreed. It’s more or less what I was saying above. It’s absolutely outrageous that he could support CPs for straights but opposes civil marriages for us. What he has done has proved he’s a bigot. I’m going to put a cynical slant on this one. I think his support of CPs for straights might be a political ploy and a coded message for opponents in the House of Lords. It’ could be construed that he’s sending a message to them that granting CPs to straights will mean that we can no longer claim they are unequal because straights are embracing them rather than marriage. Either way, it’s tantamount to bigotry giving one group more rights over an unpopular minority.

      1. I agree that Mr. Welby’s position is completely unsatisfactory, but, then again, the man’s deluded, he suffers from a mental illness: he seriously believes there are angels, devils, and spirits floating about us RIGHT NOW!

        There’s no getting away from the fact though that if we were able to persuade this ill man to make a pronouncement in our favour, that would cause a great many of his fellow cult-members to clam up and cease opposing us.

        This is why I think that dancing with this particular devil can do no harm. This devil could just begin to change. I mean, look at the Anglican Cult elsewhere in the world. Some of them ARE prepared to marry gay couples. Some of them are WOMEN bishops. And so forth.

        If one can do it, they all can. The poor things just need taking by the wrist! Though maybe giving their dicks a good wrench might cause a good number of them to capitulate? ;-)

        1. Robert in S. Kensington 19 Apr 2013, 4:11pm

          Eddy, I just look at their stubborn refusal to allow female bishops. That will happen sooner than their acceptance of equal marriage. I suspect it will be another forty to fifty years before they evolve on the latter. I won’t be around for that. That he has to evem think about issuing an apology or express regret at the homophobia deeply entrenched in his cult I find absolutely appalling. The man has no backbone or integrity but would rather kow-tow to the bigots at home and in Africa where many blatantly denigrate and villify our existence and our relationships. By refusing to take a stand, he’s giving tacit support to the bigotry and homophobia.

          1. I think what you have highlighted above, Robert, should remind us all that Mr. Welby and his fellow cultists exist on a plane that is a million miles away from ours. I think that we should rejoice that we are so free of lunatic supernatural beliefs, but we have to remember that the cultists are genuinely “away with the fairies”, they just don’t understand us. Now, as they are the ones who, we know, are ill and maladjusted, surely it incumbent upon us, the sane and rational ones, to try and lead them towards reason?

            Yes, I know that reasoning with religious loonies can seem pointless because it can drive you nuts, but thousands and thousands of religious loonies have in fact seen the light and tossed religions aside forever! Even Mr. Welby has “crises of faith”, dark nights of the soul, serious doubts over whether he really IS in contact with that big invisible being he calls his “God”.

  13. Jock S. Trap 19 Apr 2013, 10:46am

    Justin Welby has just made clear how and why the Christian faith is not compatible with British society.

    He wants to state how strong Gay relationship are but yet still wishes to deny equality.

    He wants to express how important and stabilising marriage is but is at the forefront of denying us the freedom.

    Fact is these types only want to see us in stereotypical roles of old so they can satisfy their own egos.

    It’s just wrong. It’s discrimination. It’s homophobic.

    As for having to think about an apology… what’s there to think about? Surely he cannot deny history…. or will they simple re-write it.

    His arguments are flawed.

    In my mind religion is irrelevant.

    1. “these types only want to see us in stereotypical roles of old so they can satisfy their own egos” and in that sense, Jock, Mr. Welby is no different from those young hetero jocks who yesterday portrayed themselves as victims in France!

      They just can’t get their heads round change and development!

  14. Is Welby actually going to vote against this bill in the HoL? He is one of the 26 bishops who can vote on the bill. Frankly I don’t care what he has to say I only want to know whether he is going to vote on the bill.

    As for amendments to the bill to include straight CPs, this bill is about proving equal marriage to same sex couples not a whole host of amendments to delay the bil more that it has already been delayed so far.

    We still don’t have a date for the third reading vote nor do we know when it goes to the HoL nor do we have any clue or campaign going on to write letters etc to the peers. I just wish PT would do more campaigning on these issues and stick to the point ie getting this bill thru ASAP.

    1. John, while I agree with a lot you have said, I think Peter knows that a turn, or at least a positive development, on the part of the leader of the Anglican Cult could influence one hell of a lot of other people.

      Archbigot Carey couldn’t even be spoken to. The brave volunteers of Outrage had to go over the wall of Lambeth Palace to tell him face to face what gay and lesbian people thought of his stance with regard to us.

      Mr. Welby has at least been prepared to meet and to speak. Yes, it may all have been in vain, but, on the other hand, the glass may be half-full and could become fuller!

    2. Robert in S. Kensington 19 Apr 2013, 12:33pm

      Yes, john, of course he’s going to vote against EM as leader of the Anglican cult, he has to for obvious reasons. Our friend ‘bobbleobble’ made an interesting point in one of his posts earlier this week saying that the third and final Commons vote will probably take place after the opening of the new Parliament on May 8th to preserve invocation of the Parliament Act if necessary. Apparently, if it has to be used, it can’t happen within a month of the closing of the current Parliament which is less than a month away. I’m not quite sure if the Commons’ final vote will be allowed to take place before May 8th but might be contingent on the PA in the new session.

      As far as I know, there has been no campaign aimed at the peers, although I’m sure C4M have already moblilised. I was hoping Out4Marriage and StonewallUK would have been proactive in this but doesn’t look like it. Apathy often leads to defeat.

      1. We gays in the UK don’t totally deserve Marriage Equality because apart from people writing comments to each other here on PinkNews and apart from the videos made by celebrities what major nationwide campaign by gays and lesbians has there been?

        1. Robert in S. Kensington 19 Apr 2013, 1:31pm

          It’s apathy and lack of funding. We’re the only country that hasn’t mounted a national campaign by our own. Foolishly, some believe that our supportive MPs have taken care of it for us. The Out4Marriage campaign posted a list of MPs who voted for and against. Of those against, almost all of them voted no as a result of opponents in their constituencies bothering to contact them apparently far outnumbering who were indifferent or just too lazy to bother. This could well happen in the Lords while the C4M bunch are already mobilised and contacting them.

          1. Who here is a member of C4M? Why aren’t we getting regular updates from C4M? Is C4M the only campaigning group? Why aren’t they contacting me?

        2. Jock S. Trap 20 Apr 2013, 9:27am

          I stopped reading from the “We gays”…

  15. (“The Archbishop told me “gay people are not intrinsically different from straight people” but there is an “intrinsic difference in the nature of same-sex relationships” and this is a sufficient reason to deny gay couples the right to marry, even in civil ceremonies in register offices. When pressed to say why this “intrinsic difference” justified banning same-sex marriage he merely replied: “They are just different.””)

    Fear of difference is the fear of life itself.

    1. “Fear of difference” is an irrational misunderstanding of the nature of reality.

      But we all know that religion does not operate in reality.

  16. No, Peter. By meeting him, it affords these people the credibility they do not deserve. They represent a TINY proportion of the public. For us to give them a second of our time indicates we CARE what they think. Personally, I don’t give a monkey’s for their opinion or their ‘beliefs’. I believe in Peter Pan but no-one comes cow-towing to my door seeking my approval.

    1. Jock S. Trap 20 Apr 2013, 9:29am

      Indeed and there is a chance that Justin Welby would use this meeting as a PR stunt against us.

  17. I think it’s great that PT and the ABoC have met and talked, and I have some respect for Welby for at least agreeing to the meeting, unlike his predecessors.

    But if he seriously thinks this intangible “intrinsic difference” of same-sex relationships is really grounds for denying even civil marriage to gay people, then I fear there’s a long long way to go yet.

  18. Patrick McC 19 Apr 2013, 1:05pm

    A 1,000-mle journey starts with a single step. Well done, Peter.

    1. Well said, Patrick. A 1000-mile journey starts with a single step.

      From most of the comments posted in this thread one would never believe that “The Shawshank Redemption” is reputed to be the average young gay man’s favourite film. (Perhaps lots of people posting here, aren’t young.)

      1. … but agreeing to meet him gives the impression that this man’s opinions matter. They don’t – only to a TINY section of society. WHY do we treat the head of ‘sky fairies’ with ANY credence whatsoever? Talking snakes – women made from the rib of a man? Oh PLEASE!!! If Mr. Tatchell wants to be taken seriously by me, he should stop pandering to these people. They are best ignored. Eventually, the will go away.

        1. Well, if Peter reads your comment, and others, I am sure he will be confused. When he went over the wall of Lambeth Palace with other Outrage members he got pilloried by loads of LGBTs as having acted in a wild and disrespectful manner to Archbigot Carey and fellow bishops. And now that he has entered the Palace through the front door and not scared the living daylights out of the new Archbishop by confronting him, he’s getting pilloried again! He can’t win, can he?

          I agree with you that Welby is yet another snake-charmer but he is a major cornerstone of The British Establishment. If we were to scream at him and threaten him and deride him, would that bring about any change in him?

  19. What exactly was the point of this meeting? I suppose the Archbishop can now go around saying that he is ‘meeting the lepers’ in time-honoured Christian fashion and Tatchell gets a few more media hits which will surely keep him happy. Certainly from what he writes here there seems to have been no substance at all at this meeting.

  20. Colin (London) 21 Apr 2013, 12:32pm

    There is only one way to sort this and anything else is wasting time.


  21. A rather depressing account of a dialogue of the deaf. It does not sound as though either man was listening to what the other had to say – or at least each came with preconceived responses to the another. They seemed agreed that there was no intrinsic difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals (in the name of eekwality, innit) though many of your more thoughtful readers would have wanted to qualify the Archbishop’s assertion.
    It seems wrong to me to characterize the man simply as a ‘bigot’ in the way that Lord Carey is a bigot, which is not to say that Mr Welby isn’t muddle-headed. I just wish that there was someone more subtle than Peter to discuss with him the issues at stake in the way that Alan Bray used to with the Roman Catholic hierarchy since I believe the new Archbishop is, on the face of it, at least capable of listening.

  22. Johan C. Lutje Schipholt 14 May 2013, 12:45pm

    We don’t have this problem anymore , over here in Holland. Instead we are concentrating at a European level on sexual orientated based violence. Therefore our minister for Gender and LGBT Equality organises a 2 day International IDAHO conference of 200 European ministers and policymakers next Thursday,and a State dinner , which will be joined by our new Queen : Maxima

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