Good Luck, but why expect anything to come from such hateful bigots…they don’t practise what they preach or do themselves with children thinking people are blind to their actions…
The plea to him itself is insulting to gay people. Just move on and leave them to rot. Sending this letter is just confirming to them that they are as powerful as they think they are.
Frankly the letter is embarrassing.
I’d be surprise if he responds Even if he does, what on earth could he possibly bring to having any dialogue with us? He’s diametrically opposed to equal marriage and against our relationships. He should be begging for dialogue not us, but he won’t. The roman cult has NOTHING to offer us and neither does the Anglican cult.
Robert, you may be interested to hear that the other day I simply and briefly stated in a Guardian thread that the Catholic church is as much a cult as the Church of Scientology, that they each behave in similarly secretive and manipulative ways, and my comment was removed!
We must however keep repeating the fact that the Catholic Church is a cult no different from all other cults.
Most definitely agree with that, Eddy. It is indeed a cult. To me, if anything is intrinsically disordered, it’s the catholic hierarchy. Knowingly covering decades if not centuries of paedophilia and protecting the perpetrators from prosecution is absolutely astounding. Just look at the O’Brien debacle. The Vatican knew since October, yet here we are four months later before it comes to light. I wouldn’t mind betting they thought they could get away with it if it weren’t for those 5 priests coming forward. I don’t think this is the end of it. More to come.
Its always worth an attempt to open a dialog with them, It makes it harder for them to keep spouting so much hate towards us, anything that reduces that so LGBT people are not hurt by it can only be a good thing. If they refuse then its just more bad publicity for them and will turn more people away from them.
These cults are being shown for what they are and their support is waining, largely thanks to the hate they spew, it can’t hurt to have an easier time while they die off.
As the most senior catholic churchman in Scotland, Tartaglia is now the leader of the church in Scotland. Even when a new Archbishop of St. Andrew’s & Edinburgh is appointed, Tartaglia will be senior to him since he’s been an Archbishop longer and will remain leader of the church, so long as there isn’t a Scottish cardinal. Maybe Tartaglia himself will be made a cardinal.
Tartaglia will toe the vatican line and the catholic church in Scotland will remain as homophobic as ever.
Am being off topic here, but is it just me or does he look like Christopher Biggins?
Biggins on HRT
It IS Christopher Biggins………in drag.
Why would anyone in a same sex relationship want to have dialogue with a catholic cardinal. It would be like someone who was Jewish having a dialogue with an SS guard – there’s nothing to say.
Mark Y, I agree. But, you know, there are gays who just can’t shake off their Catholic habits. You can tell them till you’re blue in the face how much happier and fulfilled they will be in the world of reality and reason, but, no, they just won’t let go. It’s witness to the profundity and the “effectiveness” of the Catholic Church’s brainwashing of juveniles.
On the other hand, I know an ex-priest who spends his life in gay clubs and gay saunas and gay cruising grounds but come Sunday morning he’s there at a Latin mass, wallowing in the incense, the Palestrina, the flower arrangements! Yep, no integrity at all. No sense of responsibility whatsoever! And he’s a teacher now, by the way!
Eddy, brainwashing is another trait of a cult. They’ve done a brilliant job over the almost past 2000 years. My hope is that Peter Tatchell carries out the outing of senior hierarchy leading a double life, assuming he has the proof.
Why would we want to have a conversation with a people who would prefer to torture, kill and die for their beliefs in the fairy tales: evil apples, virgin giving birth, walking on water, turning water into wine, turning wine into blood and bread into some one’s body, gifts of 40 virgins when you die, women are not equal to man, talking burning bushes, evil snakes, angels couriers of god’s seed to an earthly woman… . Some people are just out of their minds and having a trick hallucination, even group hallucinations on a mass basis. It may be permissible at this point, but it is not functionally healthy for them or society.
We don’t go to mental institutions to negotiate public policy with mental patients. We inform them of reality and gently bring them back to it. If they don’t want to follow rational thought, then rehabilitation is required, not acceptance and encouragement.
“We don’t go to mental institutions to negotiate public policy with mental patients. We inform them of reality and gently bring them back to it. If they don’t want to follow rational thought, then rehabilitation is required, not acceptance and encouragement.” Ra, I think I love you! :-)
NOTHING will come from this.
People need to realise that the catholic church does not reason with anyone. According to the catholic church what the pope says is infallible and that he is a direct mouthpiece for god.
Until a pope decides that homosexuality is not sinful there is no point in trying to reason with people like Tartaglia.
And going by the catholic church’s usual speed I reckon that in the year 2476 it will declare that homosexuality is not a sin.
Daniel Donaldson, well done! A good shot! Worth a try! It may only rub some salt into that wound: but they damn well deserve it!
You’re challenging him. You’re making him uncomfortable at a time when the Catholic cult is vulnerable. Well done!
I doubt however that he will have the guts or the gumption to step outside the too-easily-followed proscriptions of Cult Headquarters.
If he goes against church teaching he will be fired.
It is 100% impossible to reason with religion, and the catholic church in particular.
It would be a far more useful tactic to try to ensure that all churches lose their tax breaks.
“You’re making him uncomfortable at a time when the Catholic cult is vulnerable. Well done!”
FINISH HIM !!
*LGBT community does Fatality*
LGBT community wins
Wasting your time, luv. Just ditch the lot of it
Yep, Daniel and his Catholic gay mates should just vote with their feet, as has happened throughout the Republic of Ireland on a massive scale in the past few years.
He’s not going to get to be a Cardinal if he doesn’t toe the Vatican line, so this will lead to nowt, but if it’s a Catholic group, or Catholic individuals who want to try – let them. I doubt he will respond to them.
I would tell him the time of day if he asked – they’ve been so harmful and hurtful for my entire life, I will never be able to forgive them for that. They have systematically worked, worldwide, to oppose equality legislation and inflict pain and suffering.
Only direct action on their part, to rally against the legislation in Uganda, Nigeria, and elsewhere, to demand equal protections and social justice on a global scale, will make any difference. Here in the UK they have lost any hope of stopping equal marriage, they have nothing to offer us here. Once equal marriage is here in the UK they will have virtually nothing left to oppose. What could he possible offer us?
Oh, Gulliver, Mr. Tartaglia can offer you the possibility of Eternal Life, union with Jesus Christ, his Father in Heaven, the Holy Spirit, the Mother of God and all the Saints! That’s what he can offer you!
I sense some doubt on your part? Maybe you’re thinking Mr. Tartaglia ought to show you a little of the goods first, before you buy? Nah. They don’t do that, I’m afraid. No try before you buy, whatsoever. You have to have total faith that the deal will eventually pay off!
It’s just unbelievable that there are gorgeous gay Scots up there, with brains to boot, who believe this drivel and are willing to prostrate themselves in front of the likes of Mr. Tartaglia if only he shows them a little love and acceptance.
Some people are simply caught up in masochism.
When I’ve discussed this online with Catholics many have said that the church is their social gathering – it’s where they go to meet others, friends, etc., just like some people go to the same pub. To them a chance to meet others, it is their community event, and to try to wrench yourself away from that is very difficult.
As for the Bible it’s total nonsense. Some useful sayings in just a few places, but nothing any atheist or humanist couldn’t have also said, and probably did. Much of the Bible is simply nicked from other cultures and religions. It’s full of errors, the Gospels are a shambles, all sorts of fictions have been invented in the New Testament – and don’t even get me started on the Old. Listen to Bart Erhman on youtube – he should know. I’m more likely to believe the tooth fairy exists ! :D
You’re bang on re. the social function of churches. That’s why I was interested to read of the new atheist Sunday morning gatherings in a disused old church in Islington recently. And I noticed when I was trotting round Edinburgh a few weeks ago on an icy Sunday morning that 100s of cars were jammed up against a church. I popped in for decko and the service had ended. About two hundred mostly older folk, all well-dressed, were partaking of post-service refreshments in one of the transepts, amidst much jovial banter. So, yes, definitely a social hub!
The LGBT community could start having dialogue with those Catholic MPs and Peers who are staunchly against homosexuality and in particular same sex marriage.
It’s these representative of the Catholic church whose “faith” in their church who are stopping equality. How do they now feel about stopping equal marriage eg what does Sarah Teather now think of her reasons for opposing same sex marriage.
Do the MPs now realise how hypocritical their church is?
Luckily for us the majoirty of the catholic MPs did support SSM. The next obstacle are all those peers and I’m sure the catholic peers will still be pushing the views of Cardinal O’brien.
Where in the bible does it say that it is O.K. to be GAY , or that it is not a sin ?
Rene, sweetie, your bible is nothing more than a bunch of old parchments cobbled together by a lot of primitive, frightened, and deluded loonies in the deserts of the Middle East 2000 years ago when they didn’t even know that the earth is not flat or that the earth revolves around the sun. So don’t worry your little head about what’s either in or not in that pile of crap. Burn it, sweetie, burn it. And the Koran. And the Torah. And all such old nonsense.
The women who was about to be stoned for adultery, Jesus said “When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her.” (John 8:7), and the other bits to 8:11. They are fake, they are lies, Jesus (if he existed) never said that at all — those writings were added to the Bible hundreds of years later.
Paul is attributed with 13 books (letters) but only 7 are consider authentic, 3 are disputed by scholars – some think they are his, some don’t, but all agree that 3 are completely fake, not written by Paul. As an example, 1 Timothy is a fake. The Gospel stories all have different, conflicting, details of the resurrection — they can’t all be true accounts.
It’s complete nonsense – full of errors – very sloppy work. It wouldn’t even get published if written today. It’s a clumsy ‘B’ movie.
So that means to you that you can not find a single verse that states or appears to say that the that being Gay is O.K.? Even if you are right about how false the BIBLE is, give me just ONE verse,JUST ONE, for CHRIST’S SAKE.
“Born Eunuchs” will have a special place in Heaven. Go read about it at The Bedkeeper if you need an explanation.
Jesus and Paul were also apocalypticists and both believed the world would end in their lifetime – funny how the supposed son of God was ….. wrong, completely wrong. Both said that men should not marry in some verses – presumably because they believed the end of time was close at hand.
I don’t have to find a goddamn thing for you, let alone ‘one verse in the Bible that says being gay is OK’.
Given that the Old Testament advocates such useful life lessons as genocide, selling your daughter into slavery and marrying your rapist you’ll excuse me if I no longer treat it as a template to live my life by.
It’s a broken paradigm.
But since you’re pushing only those relationships the bible decides are ok, here’s a small selection of the juicier ones – don’t say I didn’t warn you…
P.S. If you’re going to quote Leviticus 18 at us at some point I would hope you’ve never ever worn polycotton clothing, had a tattoo or eaten prawn sarnies or you’re bound for the fiery pit too. Just sayin’
Eddy, with all due respect, if you read it you will find that thousands of years before Jesus was born God said that the earth was round and suspended in nothing. No I will not burn it, and I am just curious how it is so rationalized for convenience. all people needed to do is read it and they would have known the shape the world was in, pun intended.
Rene, listen carefully. There’s no sense in reading it and taking it seriously. It was written by men who were unimaginably ignorant. They were however very inventive, even if lacking in logic. You say “God said”. No, Rene, God didn’t say anything. God has never said anything. There is no God. God was invented by ignorant men who had a need to believe that there was a possibility of better world than the horrifying world that they used to live in then.
So burn it, Rene. It’s a pile of crap. Total crap. Rubbish. Some nice poetry here and there. But in terms of importance to how you live your life it’s got nothing to recommend it.
Using the logic that only things that are said to be “O.K.” in the bible, where in the bible does it say that it is O.K. to be FRENCH? Where in the bible does it say it is O.K. to be a CHARITY SHOP WORKER? Where in the bible does it say it is O.K. to WEAR GLOVES? Where in the bible does it say it is O.K. to be eating CHIPS? Where in the bible does it say it is O.K. to have the name RENE LOPEZ?
I ask again, Where in the bible does it say that it is O.K. to be Gay or that it is not a sin.
As far as I’m concerned nowhere in the New Testament, or the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament) is there any condemnation of same-sex relationships. In fact, it never discusses relationships it discusses acts, and you have a very poor understanding of those, because you read a fake bible, mistranslated, deliberately altered — even in the last hundred years they’ve been bastardising it. Go back to the original Hebrew and Aramaic (Jesus only spoke Aramaic). Go back to the Greek, go learn about the culture of the time, so the passages can be put in context. Do proper word-for-word translations.
The correct translation of Lev 18 22 is “And with a male, thou shalt not lie down in a woman’s bed; it is an abomination.”. WHO lies does with a male? It doesn’t say. Why was “a women’s bed” removed from the translation? Gay men don’t lie down in women’s beds – they have their own! It’s an obvious discrepancy. Perhaps it’s a women lying down with a male in his wife’s bed.
We could have a VERY long discussion about the Bible but I don’t think you ever want to engage me on that topic – I’ve spent years picking apart the clobber passages, and along the way I’ve seen a vast amount of material which discredits the Bible. Even Rowan Williams said that these passages are very problematic if any attempt to use them to condemn same-sex relationships — do you think you know more than he does?
ps. You can also look at Lev 18 21, immediately preceding what you think is a condemnation of same sex relationships, but in fact that is about child sacrifice, Pagan and Canaanite rituals, worship of Molech, and sex in the temple afterwards, with temple shrine prostitutes – and it makes perfect sense that 18 22 condemns that practice.
And “abomination” only means prohibited practice in the temple, or a ritual practice which is deems prohibited – “abomination” is a poor translation of the meaning at the time.
I will take your word for it that you are well studied in the BIBLE, I just do not know which translation you are using. I have never heard what you are reffering to and I have never heard of ROWAN WILLIAMS, but I will look him up. You are mistake if you think that I do not want to engage you on this topic, I have spent almost 30 years engaging everyone that will talk to me about this topic, It is my pleasure.
that’s 30 years of your life wasted, rene. make the most of what is left of your life. there’s nothing else.
What GAY BIBLE are you reading? I have englis and spanish and I am fluent in both and I know that a litteral treslation will not work. Jesus knew , the greek, he quoted from it, he also knew Hebrew and Aramaic. I also have 2 interlinear greek Bibles, so what yo mention is hard to believe, respectfull.y
Rene, if you look at the founding principles of Christianity – those moments when God spoke directly to humanity – you find no criticism of gay or lesbian people.
In the Ten Commandments, there’s not a mention of it.
The recorded sayings of Jesus Christ contain not one word of condemnation of gays and lesbians.
Let me turn the question back on you – where did Jesus directly say being gay is a sin?
Let me summarize it up for you rene
Leviticus talks of shirne/cult prostitution
Corinthians talks “arsenokites” which is effeminate not homosexual. The story of sodom was not about homosexuality, but the crazy sins in sodom which was inhospitality and lack of due care for anyone in te town. The “strange flesh” mentioned in the bible ws male angels as the men had rape these angels and was considered strange to god. The fact these crazy homophobic translators considered gay men as effeminate, this clearly shows their ignorance and how much they want YOU to listen to them just because they wear black robes with crosses and say “i speak for god”
Jesus was ok with it when he cured the Centurion’s lover, and when he gave his “beloved disciple” to live with his mother as her son, from the cross.
Exactly, and no condemnation of Jonathan and David, who were “betrothed” to each other and were clearly a same-sex couple.
You can’t read a 2000-3000 year old book and understand it without context – it’s even less possible to understand when they keep … changing the “word of God” ! Just changing words here and there, for their own purposes.
maybe you should go and read it, and while you’re there you can try to find if the most important person in the bible, you know, Jesus, said anything about it…
Jesus dictated the entire bible, my ignorant friend!
The troll money shot right there.
Down vote and no responses to future trolling.
You are clearly too stupid and ignorant of your own bible to bother engaging.
What an ass.
Oh dear, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve read in a while!!
rene why do you worry if gay is in the bible or no? bible is not important. bible is rubbish. bible is for old-fashioned superstitious old spanish people who believe in ghosts spirits and witchcraft. complete nonsense. be modern spanish person. don’t make discredit of spanish people here. please.
MR. Benitez, I am not worried about anything concerning this topic, and I mean no disrespect, also I am not worried if Gay is in the bible, just in what context. I do not happen to belive as you do about the bible as not important, IT is everything to me. I am old and out of fashion but I doubt that I am discrediting any race. I was a teenager in the sixties , we questioned everything and changed the world.
Then question your bible, question its context, question the agenda of the writers, question the fact that it was translated by man so there could be human error.
rene, the bible also condones the stoning of women to death for adultery, not a sin. Solomon had 300+ wives and concubines, not a sin. Adam and Eve committed incest with their own children, not a sin, and how exactly could the planet have become populated if they hadn’t? You have to ask yourself this, how on earth could the planet have become populated? If your own eye offends you, pluck it out, if your hand offends you, cut it off. Have you tried that lately? If you don’t believe that, then you shouldn’t believe what the bible may say about homosexuality which is very little. You either believe in everything the bible states or you don’t. No cherry picking dear.
Robert in S. Kensington, if I wasn’t a lesbian, I would ask you to marry me! This is exactly how the Bible is used – cherry picking in order to bash LGBT people. I used to be a Roman Catholic but left because of the homophobia and the cherry picking.
rene, Where in the bible does it say that it is ‘O.K.’ to troll on the internet?
Who cares, I’m too busy living my life, enjoying my life, thinking for myself to be pandering to bigots who can’t live life nor think for it.
where does it say it is ok to be straight?
Four hundred years after the Reformation the Catholic Church decided to say Mass in the vernacular. Diaglogue about gay rights now is a little premature. However, some Catholic priests and parishes in the Western United States are showing signs of change. Church-going Catholics will just have to force the Church to change. No point in waiting for the Vatican to rule.
Don’t give Tartaglia the satisfaction of such a meeting. This man told blatant lies about a dead man in order to demonise gay people. The Church in Scotland calls for LGBT people to be stripped of all rights. It is a beacon of hate to African churches that really do have political power, and use it to ensure draconian anti gay laws remain enforced. I cannot imagine what a meeting would do, apart from help his church save face. Their actions are frankly unforgivable.
I’ll bet they’ll meet with their gay friends who were against equal marriage, you know all of those gay friends they claimed to of have (not).
I’m sure there’ll find someone (£) that will collude with there delusional idea’s.
Not bloody likely.
The Church will not open dialogue. The Church has too much to loose from such a humbling act. No I believe they would rather destroy themselves than admit to their atrocities.
The church failed to respond to previous correspondence from the Edinburgh solicitor asking for dialogue. Presumably that means the church is content with its behaviour so far and does not wish to discuss it at all. Surely it is very self-righteous and ignorant in refusing to have dialogue and particularly in refusing to respond to Mr Donaldson’s letters? The church is behaving like a despot oppressive dictator.
Dialogue with the Church??? you must be kidding? it’s EXACTLY like expecting the Jewish community to start chatting with Neo-nazis. That ANYONE might even consider it is dangerous and highly insulting. The Church is the enemy.
They are people too, and most Christians are pro gay in Europe.
Yes Pastor, they are also people – human beings just like us. However, the hierarchy of Christian churches (and churches of any religion) do not treat us as human beings. There may be a lot of ‘pro-gay’ Christians around Europe but they obviously do not have any authority because the people in authority are most obviously anti-gay. Religion must accept the realities of the 21st Century instead of holding on with a very tight grip to the beliefs of a medieval era. We are human beings just as they are; we are not harming anyone; and we are not a threat to society – it is time that they accepted that and started to treat us also as human beings.
I’m not sure I approve of the word charity in Daniel Donaldson’s appeal to Archbishop Tagliatelle. Although I am sure it is used in the ‘tolerance of others’ context, the word is usually associated with giving support to those in need. We are not in ‘need’ of anything from the Catholic church.
The slight issue there is that if you happen to grow up catholic, and turn out to be gay – the psychological damage is lasting, painful and likely to require years of recovery.
I think you will be on a fools errand with this – its intresting to note that the RCC is still in denial of reality, this was focused for me this morning when the BBC Vatican correspondant said “There is a pained unwillingness to accept …..”
when discussing the O’Brian affair (pun intended).
A discussion on Newsnight Scotland tonight also raised an intresting point – the journalist who wrote the series on O’Brian and the priests said that the RCC was in error if they thought O’Brian is the only one, and in the course of researching the article she got information on other instances but the OBrian affair was the only one she researched in depth.
No surprise there then, except for those of the deluded faithful, who are unwilling to face reality.
And by dialogue, Mr Tartaglia, we mean serious open discussions, not private dialogues with a little cuddling in a dark hidden room like what the former Cardinal O’Brien understood by “dialogue”.
Am I to understand that the LGBT Community in Scotland mandated Donaldson to invite Tartaglia to a dialogue?
You are wasting your time.
The Church is doing a fine job itself of making the dog’s breakfast, in Europe.
As always, with any human venture, the answer lies in the till.
That’s where the ultimate demise will manifest itself; the loss of bums on pews as is already happening here in SALFORD Cathedral; fewer people every week; especially evident in recent weeks; the paint and plaster hanging off the walls.
Pudding Mush has an agenda to promote.
Were he to dissent one iota he would promptly be sidelined.
The four priests who have outed Keith O’Brien have had no support from the Church. One has even said that the Church would “crush me if it could”.
Archbishop ‘Roddy’ Wright of Argyle and the Isles, scarpered off with his scrubber and went as far away from Europe/Vatican as he could get without meeting himself coming back. He went to N.Z. and was never heard of again.
So Pie Chops can only do the same; toe the line or else it’s curtains and ‘HELLO’ Wellington.
Listening to Catherine Deveney, the journalist who exposed Cardinal Keith O’Bien, is like listening to a forensic scientist she is so cool and precise.
Some of the things she said on Newsnight Scotland last night must have the Scottish Catholic Church shaking in its boots.
‘There is a real danger here…..you know there is a danger that this reaches a new level of hypocrisy now for the Catholic church, the suggestion that this is just one aberrant cardinal and we’re all shell shocked by Cardinal Keith O’Brien of Scotland and I don’t think anyone here could be naive enough to think that Keith O’Brien is the only senior figure in the Catholic church in this position and I think there will be a lot of senior figures that are very uneasy now.’
‘….the church knows full well that Cardinal O’Brien is not unique’
The only conversation gay people should have with this bigot is to inform him how many priests and bishops will be outed if he doesn’t keep his nose out of the politics of this nation.
Yes, but who is going to out them? If not their victims, then who? Peter Tatchell has mulled it, so far nothing. Same with some MPs who voted no while leading a double life, something which Iain Dale apparently knows something about but who refuses to divulge. Now is the time to strike.
Cardinal O’Brien is now in England, in a safe house apparently. I strongly suspect this move was made after legal advice in view of the fact that English Law and Scot’s Law are two separate and distinct entities in an attempt to escape any criminal prosecution that may yet be forthcoming. So there you are England, you have him now.