As much as she is right on this one i’m betting most of her examples are made up or borrowed from the “i have a gay friend and he supports my argument” book of homophobe excuses
ha ha ha ha ha . . .
and this from the woman who smashed up Silver Moon bookshop with a baseball bat . . .
can she actually GET any more stereotypes in her article so she can be more offensive than usual?
Julie Bindel wrote an article I fully agree with?! Though I’m a bit confused about her criticism of gender essentialism – I thought she was an essentialist. I don’t know how else anyone could be so transphobic.
And the world rolls its eyes at another banal piece of “you don’t saaaay” nonsense from the trans-hating moron…
In so much as we don’t all conform to some stereotype, Bindel has a point.
Morrisey’s was the kind of sweeping statement that’s just as wide of the mark (if not as inflammatory) as the opposite view expounded in Scott Lively’s book “The Pink Swastika”.
Gay people come in all shapes and sizes and temperments just the same as straight people.
The one unifying factor is that we are attracted to people of the same sex.
Whilst we’re busting stereotypes here I should also fess up that I’m hopeless at interior design and co-ordinate my wardrobe like the skip round the back of Oxfam.
I have a qualification in interior design. Don’t knock stereotypes, they’re usually not far off the mark!
Actually, they usually are. Just because some people conform to stereotype does not mean the majority of any given group does.
What utter bilge.
Stereotypes happen because of precisely that, they are the norm rather than the exception.
Not every gay man is a hair stylist or trolley-dolly, but you bet your arse if you get on a plane or get your hair cut, penny to a pound all the men you see are friends of Dorothy.
Oh right, like the two most famous hairdressers in recent UK history, Nicky Clarke and Vidal Sassoon? (And of course all Afro-Caribbeans are feckless criminals and all Jews are money-grubbing and all South Asians run corner shops and no women can have positions of power in business because they’re too emotional.)
The majority of my gay friends happen to be lawyers or work in financial services or IT: by your twisted reckoning should I assume all lawyers, bankers and software developers are gay?
Get a life, Spanner. And while you’re at it, invest in an OED. And please don’t use embarrassingly corny phrases like ‘friend of Dorothy’ – you’re not 92 yet, are you?
Julie Bindel’s viewpoint is equally flawed suggesting all lesbians are violent and that gay men who are attracted to men in combat gear are thereby inherently violent !
Just what I was thinking. In trying to deal with Morrissey’s stereotyping she blunders into a whole load of her own. She’s not very good at this writing thing is she?!
I don’t think she does – the key word is ‘can’ (“Lezzer nights out can erupt…”)
Things like this “At the infamous lesbian holiday resort of Lesbos, which more resembles Hackney-on-Sea once the sun goes down” are blatant stereotyping.
You’d be hard pushed to find that many in Hackney anymore as none can afford to live there; it’s more about the hipsters in red trousers riding fixies. The Lezza Central days of Hackney are gone.
I thought Hackney was in London. How is it by the sea? Or am i missing some irony?
The sea part comes from Lesbos being an island, rather than being an attribute of Hackney. Whether Lesbos is full of inhabitants of Hackney I can’t tell – I’ve never been to either, despite growing up as a queer woman in London. But then I don’t follow Bindel’s other stereotypes either.
I wasn’t very impressed by her use of “lezzer”. Sounds like trying to sound cool and oh-so-with-it by claiming a term of abuse. Rather pathetic, in my opinion. Can she not simply make her point without shoving her ego in our faces?
How does an attraction to combats/army uniform (think masculinity) mean that gays like war … they are just attracted to a masculine person. :rollseyes:
If I had a taste for war, I wouldn’t be hanging around cruising sites looking for people to dress up for me, I’d go and join the army. Really not the same things at all.
On this one occasion I agree wholeheartedly with Bindel. Morrissey’s remarks, even if well-intentioned, perpetuates stale and boring stereotypes just as much as those women who ‘love gay men for their fashion sense’ do.
I think gay men are probably just as violent as straight men. That said it’s true that men are more violent than women. Of course there are exceptions but in general men are more violent and aggressive, we can thank testosterone for that. All of the worlds most oppressive countries are male dominated, the most peaceful and advanced such as Scandinavia are widely considered to be the most gender equal.
As I have said elsewhere, a taste for cock is just that, nothing more. It does not automatically indicate a taste for cheesy pop or soft furnishings or a talent for designing women’s clothes.
No, but it’s a bloody good indication.
On planet Spanner perhaps. Oddly enough, the whole world isn’t like that. You should get out more.
Agreed – if Morrissey was going to make a generalisation and pick out a group then it’d have made much more sense to pick out men in general.
An interesting point of view on the bahaviour of gay men versus straight men from Tatchell. What are people’s thoughts
Much as I have come to appreciate many of his views in recent years, PT there seems as misguided as Morrisey.
I admire Morrisey for his stand on animal welfare amongst other things. I do thing he is wrong on this as there is just as wide a spectrum of values and inclinations amongst LGBT people as there is amongst straight people.
All elephants are pink, Nellie is an elephant, therefore Nellie is pink. The danger of generalisations. All Bindel had to do is point out that elephants aren’t pink and she has undone everything.
I’m not sure that works, if all elephants are pink! Don’t you mean ‘Nellie is pink, Nellie is an elephant, therefore all elephants are pink’ – which, if I’m not wrong, is a syllogistic fallacy?
but Elmer is patchwork!!
some elephants áre pink
I have the pictures
“80s icon Morrissey”. Brilliant!
What a collection of illegible rubbish on all sides… Morrissey’s point is just silly and although she’s overall right in pointing that out, her own points are so superficial. If we’re comparing straights to gays… how can her judgement on women (overall) be based on what goes on on a lesbian resort… by the standards of this article surely gay women are not representative of all women who are mostly straight. And implying that men who like men in combats are racist or fascist is just as ludicrous.
No she isn’t and Morrissey has a valid point. Standing up to the lazy and easy rhetoric of the Politically Correct Brigade is rather courageous. Many of us don’t dare stating the obvious : we as a social group are less prone to violence, we are less aggressive than the rest of society, so yes we are in that very respect, better. gay men or lesbian wielding guns or knives, harming people? Statistically the incidence of serious crime within our community is ridiculously low compared to the rest of society. Men punching each other in gay bars… hardly ever happens but it is the accepted norm in straight bars…so, you tell me, who behaves like animals?? When was the last time you didn’t see a straight guy being aggressive just because another man just simply looked at his girlfriend? The facts speak for themselves … and we all know, deep down, that we are non-confrontational by nature. We were not the ones starting fight in the playground either. We do have a more gentle nature
While it is statistically lower than heterosexual men (who are the most violent out of any sex/gender/orientation) we have to remember that violence in our community is there. It is a fact that domestic violence between males is higher than domestic violence by a woman against her boyfriend. It’s also important not to let gender expression cloud our judgement that everyone is capable of violence – whether it is shooting someone or slapping them. The community, as far as I can find, would be more verbally abusive than straight counterparts, but less prone to violence but certainly not immune :)
we as a social group
What’s this ‘we’? We who are openly gay and live comfortable lives in towns and cities with scenes? Do you live in such a bubble that you imagine that’s the reality for every gay person in the world?
I know deep down I am confrontational by nature, sad but true
the gay couple upstairs from me must be too, because every other night I can hear them kicking shit out of each other, go to more working class gaybars and its there, go to higher end wine bars and its less so
straight men fighting is not the accepted norm in straight bars
there is no ‘we’ and you are naive to think such a thing
Aleancder the Great was, at the very least, bisexual, if not gay- in which case his, albeit likely alcoholic fueled, conquest of the then known world 9to the East). stands as an example of ‘gay’ violence.
In the 1920′ it was gay Ernst Roehm, who ‘moderated’ Hitler’s campaign, in order to get into power- However the latter showed his homophobia when in Gov- 1934 massacre of Roehm’s brigade etc.
Whether gay men and lesbians are less likely to be involved in violence is of course debatable.
If we’re looking at the ancient world, how about the legendary Sacred Band of Thebes? It was a military troop of male couples, an elite one, and it was considered a great honour to be chosen for it.
Not sure what to think now. But I agree with Blue, that we do seem to have a gentler nature.
However, what I do know is Pim Fortuyn was no racist – he was friends and the leader of a party, that included Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
He was concerned with the growing Islamification of dutch towns and cities which was having – and still is having – a detrimental effect on the tolerant and liberal nature of these places.
Some lesbians and gay men do join the armed forces and do engage in military combat, so I disagree with Morissey.
However, hasn’t Bindel herself forgotten about Gertrude Stein, Radclyffe Hall and Nathalie Barney of the Paris salon era? True, gay men can be as fascist and racist as straight people, but then so can lesbians!
I have as much time for Bindell as she has for others who aren’t like her.
Certainly are some butch Lesbians about but that’s not really relevant is it!
As for Gender essentialists, umm well I don’t know if she’s noticed but most people are perfectly happy with the male female roles, those who aren’t tend to be a minority even inthe gay community, so I would say the world is as it is, to deny it is that way is a bit like flat earthers! Or am I deluded and is there no such thing as men and women (as a majority of the population).
Gay men are never violent,
and I’ll punch anybody’s lights out that says otherwise.
Is that before or after you arrange the flowers and light the scented candles and fluff up the cushions (since you’re so keen to perpetuate stereotypes above)?
As if I needed another reason to dislike Morrissey, he now has me agreeing with Julie Bindel.
How daft are all these journalist’s?? Mozza’s comments are not supposed to be taken so literally. Doh! And, he is correct in saying that war is a patriarchal heterosexist cultural phenomenon.
What proof can you provide that matriarchal societies never went to war?
Boudica was a British Celtic warrior queen who led uprisings against the occupying Roman armies during the First Century AD. Pronounced boo-dike-a, it is believed that the somewhat derogatory word ‘dyke’, used to describe a Lesbian woman was derived from her name.
This is going so far off-topic that it’s ridiculous, but really I find that hard to believe: until very recently most people referred to Boadicea, not Boudicca; and anyway dyke is a shortened form of bulldyke, which goes back to the 1940s but is of uncertain origin.
Boudicca’s uprising was partly triggered by the Roman rape of her daughters after her husband’s death, I have never heard any suggestion that she was lesbian or was a ‘lesbian icon’ – ?
The Kray twins were considered bisexual, with Ronnie Kray being more attracted to men than his brother, Reggie who preferred relationships with women. Their sexuality did not stop them from being two of the most violent men that London has ever seen.
Morrisey is just an attention seeking tit. I’d gladly punch his face in just to prove that some gay men have violent natures, actually I’d punch his face in just for the hell of it