We all loves it when they Fox up ;) *crap pun made; hails taxi*
14 likes for a really feeble joke! My work is done. :D
Always nice to see bigots fail by their own doing.
“Men and women may be capable of doing many of the same things, but that doesn’t mean they want to. That we don’t have more female CEOs or stay-at-home dads proves this in spades.”
Yes, choice is the reason there aren’t more female CEOs. It hasn’t at all got anything to do with years of inequality…
What a lovely couple :-)
What you wear at your wedding is up to you but…
Is the women on the left of the picture a transvestite? In a ceremony that celebrates the love of two women, why is one of them dressed as a man? I would ask the same question of Gay men getting married in bridal dresses. Why ape heterosexual marriage? These aren’t just butch clothes. It is a man’s costume.
If this is a Trans issue then that is a different matter. But it’s not, is it?
She is not dressed as a man, why do so many people feel the need to judge her for her clothing? (not just here but on fb as well) It’s not a “man’s costume”, she’s wearing what she feels comfortable to wear. She doesn’t need to wear a “ladies costume” to affirm her gender. There are plenty of women who have “masculine” elements to their personality and present themselves as such, although they have no desire to become a man. Also there are plenty of women who find really butch women smokin hot… myself for starters.
I definately wouldn’t call myself butch but personally I would feel far more comfortable wearing a suit than a dress (although if I were getting married I probably wouldn’t wear either). I haven’t put on a dress or a skirt since I was old enough to choose my own clothes, it would feel totally alien and unnatural to me… and I know I’m not the only one.
I’m sorry but I disagree: a suit worn with a tie is a “man’s costume”, like it or not. It’s a costume worn with a specific aim in mind by almost all men in business or finance. The woman in this photograph is even wearing a waistcoat, which I would bet scarcely any women working in the City of London, even if they wear trousers (which is acceptable now but wasn’t as little as 30 years ago).
The point is that social conventions and hence labels are not immutable and can change. A woman today wearing a tailored trouser suit with a tie will indeed be widely perceived as ‘aping a man’ – and indeed may do it to exploit those reactions for reasons of theatrical camp, radical challenge to sexist attitudes, or to convey a transgender identity. But if enough women did it frequently enough you can bet that in a generation or less it would lose its ‘gender transgression’ flavour. A good historical example is men (usually wealthy or high status men) wearing full face make-up on special occasions from about 1670 to roughly 1800. Both sexes did this and it had no gendered associations. But ‘Beau Brummel’ and the rise of Romanticism and raffish ‘naturalism’ (which also did for knee-breeches and powdered wigs) meant that by the 1820s it was not an acceptable signifier of masculinity. Symbols are not fixed in their meaning. They are often changed by what we actually do with them.
Oh, agreed – as I said, look at the way trousers for women have become accepted in most circumstances (the Royal Enclosure at Ascot notwithstanding) since, first, the 1930s and then more effectively after WWII, and then jeans from the 1960s on.
But, at present, I think you can’t ignore that a suit and tie with a short-back-and-sides haircut is pretty widely associated with men, and for a woman to wear that gear in full does seem, to me anyway, a form of transvestism. I stress that, if that’s what she or anyone else wants to wear, they have, and should have, every right to.
I take your points and I am happy is the couple in question felt comfortable in their choice of garb. I do feel however that in the particular suit she is wearing she is ‘in drag’ just like Albert Nobbs, or as a man in a wedding dress would be. I completely understand guys who wish to dress more femininely or women who like looking butch but this wedding gear is a COSTUME designed specifically for a bride and groom. She is not just looking butch. She is dressed as the groom.
Julian Clary chose to present himself in feminine clothes. If he put on a wedding dress he would have been in drag. My comment is more observation than criticism. Gender identity is many-faceted.
People are way too uptight about gender roles. (Not least Fox News.) A man dressed in feminine clothes is usually labelled a transvestite (or self-identify, which is fine of course), but a woman in masculine clothes is a common enough sight. She usually does not get labelled a transvestite though, which again reflects the misogyny in society that femininity is inferior. She’s dressing up the social ladder instead of down. This is a load of bull because anyone should be able to dress however they want without having their gender or sexuality questioned.
Within the last century women would have been labelled ‘transvestite’ though, in historical terms it’s only extremely recently that women have worn ‘masculine’ clothes – and even then, as with jeans now, they’re usually cut quite differently.
Nowadays a lot of women who work in restaurants or catering, in London anyway, are made to wear trousers (and shirts and even waistcoats sometimes) because – I believe – it’s thought that it’d be too distracting if they wore skirts! Certainly a major u-turn from attitudes of only a generation or two ago.
I agree Cal, it’s something that puzzles me too. If I were a gay woman, I would guess that I’d be unlikely to fancy a woman who, to all intents and purposes, looks like a man – just as, as a gay man, I don’t fancy men that look like women.
I certainly believe that the couple in question can wear whatever they choose, I don’t for a moment advocate a ban of any sort; but it does baffle me.
Careful, Rehan. That’s dangerous talk, that is :D I was relentlessly bullied by other lesbians simply because I didn’t fit their little butch/femme rules. I’ve always been very feminine and have only ever been attracted to other feminine women. I was pretty confident that that made me a lesbian – until I met a lesbian group who told me different. That was one of the main things that made me depressed and miserable about my sexuality. I felt utterly alone and that I didn’t fit in anywhere at all. But the truth is, there are all different kinds of lesbians – some just have louder voices than others…
I think for me I feel that each member of the wedding couple should wear what they’d wear in everyday life just a bit smarter. The only thing that annoys me is when lesbians plan to get CP’d then feel that one of them HAS to wear a suit. I’ve known two couples like that – as though they HAD to go the suit/dress route, and couldn’t possibly both wear the same thing.
Aww bless Iris xx
I know the feeling. I am the most un-gay gay bloke around.
Unfortunately both outside and within the LGBT crowd, (I refuse to use the word ‘community’) – there will always be those that expect everybody else to conform. I say be yourself, and let people see you for who you are. If they don’t like it,. it’s their problem, not yours.
Thank you, Spanner :x It’s easier now I’m older but I still think about it and it had a deep effect on me. Realising you’re gay is hard enough as a teen, but to then be bullied by the very group who should be supporting you and amongst those with whom you should feel at home is soul-destroying.
“I say be yourself, and let people see you for who you are. If they don’t like it,. it’s their problem, not yours.”
Absolutely right! That’s one thing I wish I’d realised in my teens. I hope young gay people are less compelled to conform to a certain type now.
Er, that emoticon was a : plus a x, Spanner – ie a kiss, not that rather grumpy looking thing that’s appeared in my comment to you! Sorry! X
No wonder I agree with just about everything you write, Iris!
I simply cannot understand why any same-sex couple would feel they have to emulate an opposite-sex couple when getting married – it’s what in my long-past days of student activism we’d have labelled “pre-Liberation”! I’m very happy to report that the only lesbian wedding I’ve been to my friends both wore dresses – because they wanted to, and they often do anyway – and, especially since neither of them wore a meringue-type dress, both looked terrific.
I think there are hangovers from feminism amongst some lesbians, Rehan. Not what I’d call true feminism, but a kind of toxic feminism that ,again, tries to bully all women into a certain type of conformity. To me, all those people miss the point: a woman can be equal to a man without having to try to be one in the way they act – that is, you don’t have to give up your femininity.
If some lesbians don’t want to wear dresses or wear make up, then that’s fine if that’s them being true to themselves and genuinely choosing what they really want to wear, but I hate the idea that every lesbian *must* do that, either through overt coercion like I suffered or through indirect messages that suggest you’re not a ‘proper’ lesbian if you don’t dress and act a certain way. Even in the lesbian media you can see a certain kind of lesbianism promoted way ahead of other kinds, and it really annoys me. I think half the time they don’t even know they’re doing it. They just make assumptions.
Oh dear God… oh nope, no wait…. hey the Earth hasn’t imploded!! What a surprise…. Not!!!
Oh the hypocracy! LOL
Haha shot themselves in the foot with that one!
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! *breath* Hahahahahahahahaha!!! *breath* Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! *breath* Hahahahahahahahaha!!! *breath*
The woman on the left makes me feel weird. I am a gay man and she is smoking hot.