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Thousands of Dutch Catholics look to leave the church after Pope’s anti-gay comments

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  1. GulliverUK 28 Dec 2012, 1:50am

    In Ireland there is a web site;

    http://www.countmeout.ie/suspension/

    which gave information about leaving the Catholic church, but so many were leaving that the church changed their Canon laws to not allow people to formally defect from the Catholic faith. So it’s unclear IF and HOW anyone can now leave the Catholic church.

    1. Justice for all 28 Dec 2012, 8:47am

      they can stop giving this hitler youth led monster any money

      Burn their bibles and put it on the internet.

      Do what we do and exposes the vilest of crimes of the pope and his church, eg the kiddie thing by his sex starved priests.

      Call for the remmoval of the RATZI Nazi
      for crimes against humanity

      In America 10% of the population – 30 million are ex catholics. In france only 5% go to church anymore and I’m told that church attendance in most of europe is only 10-15% anymore

      http://www.inquisitr.com/268829/gay-couples-in-france-will-get-right-to-marry-adopt-in-2013/

      http://pewresearch.org/databank/dailynumber/?NumberID=494

    2. Rev. David Gray 28 Dec 2012, 5:13pm

      The Abrahamic faiths believe that God gave human beings free will. The Catholic church can neither over ride our God given freedoms or those written in law. Most people are made members of a faith while still infants and unable to speak for themselves, so no church has the right to define or enforce membership against the free will of its individual or collective members. members.

      1. darkmoonman 28 Dec 2012, 7:20pm

        The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (a.k.a Mormons, Mormonism) also refuses any and all attempts by individuals to resign from membership in that church though the church can excommunicate an individual if it deems that person to have committed a sufficiently bad enough sin (which is, of course, left to the discretion/determination of the church hierarchy).

      2. As a pagan, I totally agree.

  2. WildwoodGuy 28 Dec 2012, 5:21am

    So long as those individuals no longer donate their time or money to the church, does it really matter whether the RCC considers them ‘members’ or not?

    1. Yes, it does. There are records or our “participation” in the church. We should have the option of completing those records with an official statement that we have denounced the church. I wrote to the diocese of the bigot who called us Nazis asking how I could be ex-communicated, but they have not responded.

      If anyone has info on how to become ex-communicated, please post.

      1. Perhaps as you could go to confession and demand the priest confesses the sins of the church and begs for your forgiveness….that should make you popular. You might also write something suitable in the book inviting subjects for the priest to pray for at each service. You may not get excommunicated (you’re probably not important enough) but if you feel so strongly about the Roman church it may make you feel better….

        1. John Jones 28 Dec 2012, 9:56am

          “You might also write something suitable in the book inviting subjects for the priest to pray for at each service” — what? In all my years, I have never come across such books! LOL.

          1. I’m a rare frequenter of Catholic Churches, but I visited this one (http://www.farmstreet.org.uk/home.htm) in Mayfair last month and was delighted to find such a book. I plan to visit it with new prayer suggestions every time I’m in the area…I’d assumed it might be common to all such churches, but perhaps I’m wrong….

      2. have you tried Google?

      3. Har Davids 28 Dec 2012, 8:50am

        I took the formal road a couple of years ago, before ontdopen.nl existed. It was a bit of a bureaucratic process, but I guess I’m out now. But I still don’t understand why the government just wipes its civil records clean of religious affiliations, so the truly devoted can register anew after they’re 18 yo; that would be great for the statistics.

        For information on excommunication: http://atheism.about.com/od/ideasforatheistactivism/a/Excommunication.htm

      4. Ex-communicated does not mean one is no longer a catholic. It simply means one cannot partake of the sacraments. It’s the canon law equivalent of being sent to Coventry.

      5. “There are records or our “participation” in the church. We should have the option of completing those records with an official statement that we have denounced the church” — What? Do you mean the annual Mass attendance count? Every October, in England and Wales, the Church counts the number of people who attend Mass and use those stats in official publications. The only other records are baptismal, confirmation, marriage, and funeral records — which are mainly kept as a register for future genealogists.

        There are several ways you can excommunicate yourself, automatically. All excommunication means is that you cannot receive the sacraments (bar Confession). Objective mortal sin is a type of excommunication. Apostasy is excommunication and more, as by publicly declaring that you are no longer a Catholic, then you’re not one. Although there may be 5million baptised Catholics in the UK most take the October figures as representing active / real participation (about 1.8million).

        1. Have they got an ecclesiastical classification for lying old men in dresses , they woul all qualify

  3. Empty pews and no cash is something they cannot hide for long.

    There needs to be a huge debate about tax free status for organisations that are obviously against equality.

    The only thing they understand is money, that is why they are in that business.

  4. The best reference I’ve found is the one in Ireland mentioned above: http://www.countmeout.ie. There is also a synopsis at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actus_formalis_defectionis_ab_Ecclesia_catholica.

    Apparently, so many people wanted to defect from the church that in 2009 they suspended recognition of formal defection. However, you can get the form at the Irish site and send a copy to your local parish and possibly the archdioces of Dublin.

    Mark, your comment is patronising and insulting. Keep the bitch-queen comments to yourself please.

  5. I was born to a Roman Catholic family. Found all the asthetics very nice but never believed a word of the nonsense even as a very young child. Was at a private RC school for a while (was even an alter boy – loved the frock) but stopped going to Mass in my teens. I wonder do the RC church still consider me a member! They ought to base their figures solely on Mass attendance, which is obligatory. If you don’t go, you aren’t practicing.

  6. Dutch Catholics leave Church after disagreement with Pope…The sun still sets and rises and the Union of Utrecht has beem doing similar things for years.

  7. John Jones 28 Dec 2012, 9:51am

    To stop being a Catholic all one has to do is stop going to Mass or make a public act of apostasy (either by joining another religion or declaring non-belief in God / Christ / the Church). No documents are needed, and I suggest it might be best to avoid those who peddle them, esp if money is involved.

    The (highly liberal) Catholic Church in the Netherlands is hardly Catholic anyway, and most of it practically broke away from the rest of the Church in the 1960s.

    Just a couple of other points. The Pope made those remarks, which should be read in the context of the whole speech, not to ‘worshipers’ (sic) but to members of the Roman Curia.

    Also, the Pope was not pictured giving a blessing to the Ugandan politician. He was pictured receiving a gift from her, as he does from every politician that visits the Vatican. Most get to do so in the state apartments, but from the photo I could see, she had to present her present in some small corridor (probably along with hundreds of others).

    1. Well, the Ugandan media certainly seems to think she received a blessing from the pope.

      http://www.newvision.co.ug/news/638115-speaker-kadaga-receives-blessings-from-pope.html

      … as does the official Ugandan parliament press report on the meeting.

      http://www.parliament.go.ug/new/index.php/about-parliament/parliamentary-news/147-speaker-kadaga-receives-blessings-from-the-pope-at-vatican-mass

      The vatican’s press office denied it once the shit hit the fan. So do we believe them?

      Tell you what. If the pope stands up and publicly says the Ugandan law is wrong and should not be passed, then I will take the vatican’s word that the pope did not bless her.

      As to not attending mass or making a public act of Apostasy simply being enough to “stop” being a catholic, that’s not the case. The catholic church’s canon law makes that clear. If one is still registered, then in the Vatican’s eyes one is still a catholic.

    2. The RCC still has records of you as a member of the church if you have been baptised. Without a Declaration of Defection those records will remain in tact and be used by the church to establish their numbers. They aren’t acknowledging Declarations of Defection any longer, but at least I will know that there is a record of my defecting from the church.

      I didn’t think being in a state of mortal sin and being ex-communicated were the same things, but I don’t really care to learn the difference. Defection is what I’m after.

      Also, I want the bishops who made those horrendous statements on Christmas to know that I am defecting because of their comments. I plan on sending a copy to each of them.

      Why do I need to read Herr Ratzinger’s entire statement? Does he somewhere say “oops, I didn’t mean all the horrible things I’ve said about and done to gays during my whole miserable life”?

      1. As a Catholic who studied to be a priest and who has 2 degrees in theology, I can assure you that a) any records kept (Baptismal etc) are just like those in the CoE and would only ever be used by those trying to work out their family trees, b) that there is not such thing as a ‘Declaration of Defection’ in the Church or recognised by the Church, c) anyone who pays for any such declaration is probably being had, and d) if you want to leave the Church, just do so –all you have to do is say you’re no longer Catholic (even to yourself) and then you are no longer Catholic! To be a Catholic is good standing means keeping the six Laws of the Church… one of which is to attend Mass each Sunday. If you fail to keep even one of these Laws then you are lapsed at best, and, if you do so with the intention that you are no longer Catholic and make it known then your are an ‘apostate’, i.e. someone who has left the faith. As for sending letters to bishops, do you seriously think they’ll read them?

        1. Are you saying that Count Me Out are liars?

          http://countmeout.ie/update200711.php

  8. GingerlyColors 28 Dec 2012, 11:55am

    As in Islam, apostasy or abandoning one’s faith is a crime punishable by death in Christianity. Will the Pope start demanding the execution of all those who leave the Catholic Church in oder to prevent the hemorrhage? Or will he just continue banging on about his pet subject, the evils of homosexuality while disregarding the other, far worse sins that are mentioned in the Bible?

    1. Where is apostasy a crime punishable by death in contemporary Christianity?

      1. GingerlyColors 28 Dec 2012, 4:57pm

        Watching a programme by Richard Dawkins, he quoted from the Holy Bible that ‘If your brother or your son or anybody else in your family is seduced by another god then you must smash his head in with a stone’. This was written in the Old Testament which also prescribes gruesome punishments for gays. Whether or not it applies in the New Testament is open to interpretation as the rest of the book is. During the Inquisition the Catholic Church were happy to use murder and torture to force people to convert to Christianity.
        Interestingly I question whether the death penalty for apostasy should apply in Islam as Mohamed said ‘Let there in religion be no compulsion’ but try telling that to some of them.

        1. LOL. Richard is a wise man, but probably not your best source of information about Christian doctrine!

    2. In contemporary Roman Catholicism informed apostasy would be seen leading to spiritual death not physical death.

  9. I never realised that you had to de-register yourself from being Catholic.

    I was baptised Roman Catholic but was given the choice from my parents whether I wanted to pursue following it any further. I am glad that I chose not to.

    I live my life how I see fit and it is turning out well so far. I do not need so ridiculous book to tell me what I should or should not be doing with it.

  10. “And I say to you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. ”

    “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound, even in heaven. And whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed, even in heaven.”

    1. Well if that’s your belief then fine but it doesn’t make it an absolute fact. Lets all live together and let us all follow our own paths. Let Peace and Love prevail.

  11. wonder what imaginary anti-‘gay’ comments the homosexual lobby is talking about ? This ?:

    “They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition”

    1. The first sentence sounds fine to me Ray. The second loads on non-Christians the assumption that they believe or care about what you believe in. They can respect your difference though. If indeed we want to talk about the “difficulties they may encounter from their condition” then it would seem that the pope is creating the current difficulties, lack of equality and lack of respect. We all have a different path. The Christian god is one path that some chose, but there are plenty of others. If you want respect for yours then it would seem that you are required to respect other paths as well.

      It is our common parts which join us yet it is our differences and how we deal with those that can make us stronger and a true community. Let Peace and Love prevail: though of course it is your free will to chose another path.

    2. “Their CONDITION”? Patronising twat.
      Is the “homosexual lobby” the same as the “gay mafia”? Cue Elton John stroking a white cat….

    3. Whenever I read Ray’s comments I imagine him with lots of white hair and a long bushy beard, wearing sackcloth and carrying a big wobbly stick. His voice has a bit of reverb and as far as comedy goes, Monty Python could do no better. Keep up the good work.

  12. I realise why I most want the RCC to register a Declaration of Defection for me. By refusing to confirm that I have severed my relationship with them, they are violating my religious freedom to be severed from them. It becomes something akin to the Mormon practice of retroactive-baptism.

    1. Freedom of belief includes freedom NOT to have a religion affiliation of any kind, and is a “protected status” under the Equality Act 2010.
      Sounds like you have the makings of a law suit against them….

  13. So glad I was never baptized/Christened or any other form of non-consent to a church or religion when I was a baby and therefore unaware of such things.
    My mother, although a lue warm christian herself, decided only I had the right to make such a choice, when I was older and understood th significance.

    1. *Luke warm Christian

    2. There’s hope for everyone Mike .Remember Oscar Wilde was welcomed with open arms into the Church – it’s never too late .

  14. THOUSANDS OF atheists,neo-pagans,satanists,homosexual activists,and other Romo-phobes pretend they are Catholics and pretend they want to LEAVE THE CHURCH AFTER POPE REITERATES THE CHURCH’S TEACHING ON MARRIAGE (THE UNION OF ONE MAN WITH ONE WOMAN)……

    …..and rather a lot of people on here fall for it ! :) Netherlands – a very backward country with euthanasia, infanticide, abortion,genital mutilation operations, drug taking, prostitution etc – with probably the lowest Catholic population in Europe ….

    1. but a good place for a party !!! Amsterdam here I come….again !!

  15. ideology of intolerance….

  16. I left the catholic church over a year ago. The main reason was its stance on marriage equality which is rapidly coming here in the United States. However, this was not the only reason. I conducted a two-year investigation into its activities dating back before the end of the first millennium. It violated the Council of Nicea when it added to the Nicene Creed. It declared the non-Biblical concept of purgatory. It installed the Bishop of Rome above all other bishops and declared him infallible on mattes of doctrine. It conducted Crusades and Inquisitions that murdered millions in the name of Jesus. It shut its eyes to Hitler and Mussolini. It openly preached the conversion of Jews until Vatican II. Now, it reeks with pedophilia committed by priests. And Ratzinger wants to tell me how to live my life? Jesus said: “Remove the board from your own eye before you try to take the speck from your brother’s eye.” Besides, what does an 80+ celibate antipope know of human sexuality?

    1. words, words and more strange words.
      who cares, we are all dead in the end, and you are going to be dead too, using posh words and brown nosin the clergy will get you the same as me ….dead, an nothing after.

  17. Patrick Eagan M.Sc.Nursing RN 1 Jan 2013, 12:07pm

    and again, the clergy have a lot of personal problems and should be removed. might be the closet doors are finally swinging open.

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