Yet we are told it is a “trivial” issue not worth spending time on? But the the opponents of equality seem to think of little else?
PS. How often does any party have 100% agreement on any policy?
But then there are US Republicans who support same-sex marriage and I will be surprised if no one in UKIP feels the same way. The only way to have a political party that supports your views 100% is to form one yourself and run it like a dictator.
Only a very tiny minority of US Republicans are gay friendly.
When a Republican is gay friendly it is newsworthy simply because of how rare it is.
They are much further to the right than UKIP.
What’s the betting that those who responded to the survey are the older members of the party and those from rural areas too?
Almost certainly, but then most of the party members are older than the general population, and predominantly from rural areas. But the Tories can’t win an election if they only appeal to people who think like their party members. (Of course, some of us might say that would be no bad thing.) By supporting marriage equality, Cameron will significantly increase the party’s appeal amongst the younger, city-dwelling centre of the electorate, and its precisely them whose votes he needs if he’s to win in 2015. He may lose some of the older, more socially-conservative voters to UKIP, but that’ll mainly occur in constituencies so blue that it’ll make no appreciable difference. Politically, it’s a smart, and doubtless well-thought-out move.
Good – the Tories need to rid themselves of extremist scum like Dorries; Gales; Loughton etc etc oif they are ever to be trusted.
Tory scum who vote against equal marriage belong in the BNP.
Civil rights are non-negotiable which makes opposition to equal marriage (for whatever reason) a neo-fascist position.
Dont you get it those people are tories. The rest have learnt to keep their vile opinions to themselves and only express them behind closed doors
Oh, hold on a minute. I’ve been on that thread fending off UKIP supporters !
You forgot to mention;
“Seven out of 10 (71 per cent) think same-sex marriage will not be a “big issue” at the next election.”
Well yeah it’s splitting the party. Not just the members but MP’s as well. That’s not really news.
Still, Cameron is doing the right thing. UKIP’s opposition to it is based around the idea that Europe is going to force churches to participate. Once it’s been a couple years and that doesn’t happen, that weakens UKIP’s position.
The average ecthr case takes 7yrs before a ruling, (eg spain), so it will be an issue for a while, but it doesnt matter, tories are unlikely to get a majority at next election anyway.
There doesn’t need to be a ruling, UKIP would take the existence of such a case to be backing their position. Has that ever actually happened in one of the other countries that have same-sex marriage?
But thats the whole point Gulliver.
UNLESS the gay marriage bill gets through NOW-it WILL be a huge issue for the Tories going into the 2015 election.
Thats why Cameron HAS to get it through NOW.
Perhaps somebody say the severe friction it is causing in the newspaper comment sections and figured out that this cannot go on for 2 more years. We’ve imported the culture wars mentality of the US, neighbour against neighbour, believer against non-believer. It’s very bad for the health of people who are gay, causing an immense amount of anxiety, plus it’ll drive Civil Partnership numbers in to the ground as people now wait hoping that marriage is just around the corner, with a significant drop in expenditure in that area.
I don’t care if the Tory party flies apart at the seams, if they screw up, Labour will be in and do it, hopefully with LibDems as partners (for balance — or ballast !). It was always absurd to say they were going to wait until 2015 before bringing it in – some Civil Service nonsense I expect.
I also agree with you that it’s better for the Tories to do it now, very quickly, get it out of the way, so the fuss over it has died down by 2015.
The consultation was a grotesquely homophobic waste of time and money which has alllowed the most hideous of bigots a sustained period of time to air their poison.
Cameron really ought to apologise for allowing the barrage of abuse against the LGBT community go on for so long.
Anyone else remember that condescending apologist jackass who dropped by earlier in the year to say that this was as good as a done deal?
Still think that way?
Yup! Still the nasty party despite what some modernisers are trying to do. Cameron will have anticipated this resistance and I am pretty optimistic that it will go through though it may be a close call thanks to it now being a “conscience vote”.
Oh it’ll still go through. The Conservatives are split pretty much down the middle, but support is 90%+ in Labour and the Lib Dems. It’ll not only go through, it’ll go through with a considerable majority.
It still has to go through the Lords where there are a number of Church men plus ex-MP’s from the days when homosexuality was still illegal. The ‘nuclear option’ of using the Parliament Act to circumvent the Lords hasn’t been ruled out. The Act was used to force through the equalising of the age of consent in 2000. The Parliament Act has been used only seven times in the past 100 years and was last used to force through the ban on fox and deer hunting with hounds and hare coursing.
Even if they delay it in the Lords, they must be aware that reform is coming their way. Voting against it is only going to hasten support to abolish an unelected chamber and replace it with better qualified people by the electorate. In particular, it will mean the end of those 26 Anglican bishops’ seats. I can’t imagine the British public would vote for a bishop except for the right wing religious nutters but then they’re in a very small minority to begin with. Those in opposition are doomed either way and they’ll have everything to lose by voting no, including those Tory back benchers some of whom may defect to the UKIP but then that will be making their worst nightmare come true, the very good chance of Labour government in 2015. I find it baffling that someone would vote against their own interests. The UKIP hasn’t a chance in hell of becoming a viable party in Parliament, not even with one MP elected.
i admire your optimisim on the percentage of Labour MPS who will support the legislation.
those tories who are against will make their opposition known.Labour MPs who are against will keep quiet but will be noticeable by their absence on the day of the vote.
hence milliband not putting the whip on his MPs over this
Utter rubbish. Identical arguments were made against Civil Partnerships, same nonsense and look what happened. Oh, and no demand for polygamous, incestuous or bestial relationships as wll as absolutely no lawsuits against the CoE for not wanting to recognise such unions. Spin it all you want, equal marriage is coming whether you like it or not.
Ok, let’s imagine that 26 of the Labour MP’s who haven’t said they’ll be voting yes/no yet decide not to show up to cast their votes. They’ll be counted as abstaining, and given that 15 MP’s have already stated their intention to abstain that will make a total of 41 MP’s abstaining. There are a total of 650 MP’s. If 41 MP’s are abstaining, the total number of voting MP’s will be 609. We already have 305 MP’s who have confirmed they’ll be voting to legalize gay marriage, so even if everyone else votes no, they’ll still only have 304 MP’s on their side.
In short, abstaining or not showing up is handing us a victory. It’s only voting no in large numbers that could screw us.
Whether or not people are concerned about gay marriage, the truth is that the vast majority of voter do worry about the economy, the NHS, law and order and Europe. These major issues still need to be tackled, gay marriage or no gay marriage. I am still on the market myself and while it would be nice for me to marry one day, I would still like to have a job and prompt access to treatment should I be diagnosed with something like cancer. As I keep saying the longer this debate about gay marriage continues the more Tories will become split over the issue and I hope that the dithering will stop in the New Year and gay marriage will become a reality. In two years time, when the Tories have to call a General Election gay marriage will be a non-issue in the same way as Labour’s reforms allowing Civil Partnerships, gays to serve in the military and the equalising of the age of consent were during previous elections.
Our joke of an economy which is still bumping along the botton at best
is a FAR more important issue than this and I would suggest to Tory ‘modernisers’ that their party’s reputation for being the ‘nasty party’ is due to their party’s abhorrent treatment and attitude toward’s unemployed people, the disabled and other unfortunates in our society than it is about gay rights or the lack of them.
And to those who lament the redefinition of the institution of marriage, Thomas Jefferson’s celebrated remarks apply: ‘I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions. But laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind.
‘As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times.
‘We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.’
Our society is growing up and it is time our institutions and laws adapted accordingly.
That would be the same Thomas Jefferson who proposed:
“Whosoever shall be guilty of Rape, Polygamy, or Sodomy with man or woman shall be punished, if a man, by castration, if a woman, by cutting thro’ the cartilage of her nose a hole of one half inch diameter at the least.”
we can see that the conservative party is split on this issue.opponents and supporters are quoted in the media.unlike the labour party whose MPs are against will say nothing but will be absent from Parliament on the day of the vote.
Conservative home whose survey this is, can hardly be described as representative of conservative opinion in general.those who comment on this site ae mainly UKIP supporters, and the survey wasnt of conservative party members but readers of site.
Yet only a day or so back we were told a poll of Tory voters showed the majority support marriage equality. We’ve seen with the polls conducted by C4M and the like that the results of these polls need to be taken with a pinch of salt. In any case, the results are irrelevant. Public opinion should not be a factor when it comes to protection of people’s rights.
Ok, so it looks like this poll was conducted by ConservativeHome
I’m slightly sceptical as there are often quite a lot of homophobes on the comments section (as an example I have a scope of, I think, -69, yes minus 69 – I’m that popular!) and I don’t really know what sorts of Tories regularly go there, or are on their mailing list, or joined in the poll.
One thing is for sure, there is more detail on that page.
sorry, I have a “score” of
They have made a mess of it anyways. The legislation of two religions out of it was a stupid plan, and now the Muslams want the same legislaton applied to them. Complete shambles.
“A majority of Tory members (64%) think same-sex marriage is unnecessary because gay people can already opt for civil partnerships, while 32% disagree.”
Ugh, such hypocrisy! You can bet that if the Government announced tomorrow that they were going to abolish marriage altogether, and have only civil partnerships for everyone from now on, then these straight people who seem to think that CPs are enough would soon be up in arms.
It’s all so easy for straight people to say that LGBT people should be happy with second best (which is what CPs are viewed as to the LGBT couples who would rather have marriage) when it’s not them – the straight people – who have to settle for it.
These Tory dinosaurs are facing extinction. The world is moving on, progressing, and they just want to anchor everything in the past and pretend that nothing has changed. They’re already on the wrong side of history on this one.
Gay marriage is not splitting the party. Tories are splitting the party