How many times do we have to tell these idiots the marriage is not about procreation? His argument here becomes immediately invalid when you factor in older couples (i.e. pensionable age) of those who either chose not to have children or those who cannot due to fertility issues.
Marriage is about love and commitment, first and foremost.
Having children is a by product of that love in straight couples, or via adoption or surrogacy for same sex.
And again he claims that allowing same sex marriage will weaken marriage and yet cannot offer one shred of evidence to back up his claim. Yet, we can give plenty of examples of how straight couples are managing to weaken marriage (Kim Kardashian is a prime example). Need I go on?
Cardinal O’Connor was accused of covering up child abuse and he apparently got away with it.
Tory MPs Bob Blackman, Nadine Dorries and Sir Roger Gale, the latter three times married, all adulterers and in Gale’s case, an serial adulterer. I do wish supportive MPs would bring up the hypocrisy and bigotry of these vile people.
Weakening the institution is a fallacious claim that no one has EVER been able to demonstrate. Indeed, when challenged to do so on the stand in the Prop 8 case in the US it turned out that no one of any credibility was actually willing to say it under oath because it is nothing but unsupported (and therefore irrelevant) opinion.
What marriage is now is a long way from what it once was. It has evolved as a concept many times – for the better – and is doing so again. These are GOOD things, not bad.
And no, you are not obliged to be married to have children, nor have children to be married. So that is just a bare-faced lie (if he thinks otherwise, let him prove he ever lobbied for marriage bans on the elderly, infertile or differently abled who may not even be capable of a sex act).
It’s all just lies and dog whistles to try and rally the faithful, to get bums in seats and money in collection plates. It is a politically motivated power grab for a dying institution.
Valsky, they’re now getting around the issue of the infertile and those beyond child bearing years by saying that they are entitled to marry because of the sexual complementarity of two opposite genders. This is a recently new one they’re now throwing at it. Its that obsession with the penis in the vagina thing they can’t get out of their heads. I wonder how they’d view a man with erectile dysfunction or a paraplegic marrying with no chance of conventional intercourse or consummation of the marriage? Nobody has ever raised the question or put it to them. I can only imagine the kind of ridiculous excuse they’d come up with out of desperation to find something credible.
I’d like him to read the Marriage Cause Act and point to any part of it where procreation is mandated and essential to a marriage. He seems to forget that the government regulate marriage not churches and can do whatever it wants whether he likes it or not. It’s none of his business.
I remember some time ago that a man and a woman were refused marriage in a Roman Catholic church because they were seriously disabled and in the eyes of the church were unable to procreate or consummate the marriage. There was a public outrage. Public pressure made the church back track.
They will try every low down tack to keep control of everyone and not just their own church members. What right have they…? None !
I want this bigot to provide the government with the factual evidence that equal marriage will weaken marriage. Why doesn’t he contact the governments of 11 countries and ask them for their reports? I think he’ll be in a for a very long wait. It hasn’t prevented heterosexuals from marrying or procreating, they are still doing it, so his argument is just hot air. Who is he anyway to comment on human relationships and marriage? A celibate member of an organisation covering up paedophilia no less. Morally bankrupt in my view.
Indeed. According to the 2011 census marriage is getting weaken all by itself now that married people are now themselves a becoming a minority.
How these bigots will/are blame(ing) us for something that has been happening for years all by their own doing. (or not doin!)
Oi bigot, marriage predates organised religion so you have no right to dictate what constitutes marriage.
It is also ironic that members of the Catholic Church, who are not permitted to be married, are some of the most vocal against marriage.
Aren’t they “married” to god, so in effect, already in a same sex marriage, that is, if you believe in god and also believe that he is a man!
Then I suppose they are also all in a polygamous biblical marriage with one ‘man’ or ‘woman’ whatever the gender of this god is, clearly surpassing Solomon’s 300+?
He’s just doing the Pope’s bidding.
If the Pope suddenly changed his mind on the issue- so would he!
Its basically “I do what the Pope tells me”
Another foreign bigot supporting a bigoted foreign church.
It’s better than an abuse of children.
How utterly boring of him
This from a man who has never been or can be married. Like I’m going to listen to someone like him!
Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor is an ‘Abuse of State’!
The last Census should marriage in decline (of it’s own accord) and in fact that married couple are now a minority. Just who is this idiot speaking for.
People like him claim marriage is a stability in society yet wish it to be like a ‘men’s only club’… Well like Men’s only clubs it’s out-dated, pointless and means nothing and contributes nothing to society.
Oh and Archbishop of Westminster…. How exactly is a better, equal, stable society going to have ‘damaging consequences’? Evidence please?
Oops Very sorry how silly of me, these people don’t work on Fact, just mere superstition and assumptions.
Changing the Story for a comment or two… Can I Thank everyone who has been supportive of me over the past year since I lost my Beloved Partner of 20 years.
That aside can I also take a moment to remember those we have lost this year, esp Stu, a commenter I much respected. My thoughts are with his family and friends.
With that said Can I Please wish you All a very Merry Christmas and a Fab 2013!!
Oh my goodness, first of all I am so sorry to hear of your loss, Jock. My thoughts and love are with you.
As for Stu, I have missed his posts and viewpoint so much, I had assumed he had left the site, please, am I to understand that he has passed on, if so, how terribly sad.
Thank you for your kind words, Paul.
Very sweet of you Jock. I wish the same to you. I lose my partner of 13 years 19 years ago.
I’m shocked to hear of Stu’s passing. When did this happen? I couldn’t understand why he hadn’t been posting here for some time. I so miss his thoughtful comments. May he rest in peace.
Indeed a tragic loss and was so young too at 38.
Also, thank you Robert for your kind words too!
Most welcome, Jock. Thank you too for posting the link. He was so young, his whole life ahead of him. My deepest sympathies to his partner, family and friends.
So sorry to hear that Jock, all my best wishes to you and to your partners family, hope you manage to have a merry Christmas in his memory.
Thank you Pavlos :)
Jock, So sorry to hear of your partner’s passing. My huusband sends his condolences as well,
Thank you so much MerlynHerne & Husband :)
If this idiot wanted to address the threat to religion by “abuse of language”, he’d look at the word “DIVORCE”.
Amazing, Murphy-O-Connor has the arrogance to write a letter to Times accusing the PM of ‘abuse of language’.
Here’s the man who has faced police investigations for his role in Catholic Church child abuse scandals when as Bishop of Arundel, he ensured that Father Michael Hill, one of his priests who was abusing an 8-year old disabled boy was swiftly transferred to Gatwick – where he continued abuse on young boys who were on stopover on their flights.
What a strange country we live in. Cormac Murphy-O-Connor writes to the Times with his ridiculous accusations, while he should be in prison for conspiracy to commit child abuse.
Instead, he’s promoted to Cardinal.
If you’re interested in this idiots history, have a look at the BBC Radio 4 Investigation.
Better an abuse of language than an abuse of children.
tell that to Jamie Rennie LGBT Scotland
As opposed to the abuse of boys and girls by priests!!!!
He hasn’t had gay sex then? Anyone who has wound’t say its incompatible!
It’s simple then. Marriage isn’t about love. It’s about being given permission, by crispy dried up old virgins, to breed.
Virgins? I doubt if there are that many left after almost two millenia of institutionalised paedophilia and sexual exploitation of women.
Cardinal O’Connor (the one who covered up child abuse and got away with it) says David Cameron can’t be trusted.
Hang on a tick, when nuns call themselves Brides of Christ is that not, in fact, a greater abuse of language?
Yes indeed, heterosexual polygamists.
It always amazes me that these bigots never go after the likes of Bob Blackman, Sir Roger Gale, Nadine Dorries who abuse marriage by their adulterous relationships long before the equal marriage debate began or in fact, CPs. Who would this bigot blame for that I wonder?
I want to hear MPs in support speak up about the hypocrisy and double-standard by fellow members in the House and in the Lords for a change. Really expose the bigotry once and for all and hopefully shut them up.
Why is it these hateful bigots seem to get all the media coverage while supporters of ours get very little and few of them countering their spurious arguments?
(3rd time I’ve tried to post this)
I think the guy has finally got to the heart of the matter: it is about language. He wants to use this particular piece of language to continue to discriminate against us and to abuse us, and we are going to take this semantic cudgel away from him and his ilk.
Well tough. You guys have been abusing free-thinkers, women, children, homosexuals and anyone who doesn’t want to play by your rules for long enough. For you the end is well nigh.
The Cardinal portrays exactly why faith leaders should be expelled from the House of Lords ( Personally , i would get rid of the whole un- elected second chamber in one go ) Faith seeks op out after op out on common law for its ‘beliefs’. Well i believe that faith represents a block vote on the governmnets constitutional legislation. Throw them out of the Lords now. Let the counrty have its say on that!
He’s not in the House of Lords.More ignorance …..
…. and sticking yer bits in a seven year old is …. well, tell us about what exactly that is matey.
The ONLY thing you should be talking to the press for Cardinal is to repeatedly and continually apologise for the torrent of sexual abuse your clergy have subjected children over untold years.
I thought the church was about helping people and doing good, but Cardinal Cormac’s church is synonymous with destroying children’s lives through sexual abuse.
Get your own house in order before you start preaching to others.
Actually in this instance it’s not just his church, but himself whose guilty.
Cardinal Murphy-O-Connor was previously Archbishop of Arundel and Brighton and during his time he covered up the ongoing abuses of one of his priests, Father Hill. The latter abused children as young as 8 one who was disabled.
Rather than alert the authorities, Murphy-O-Connor took it upon himself to deal with the matter and did so by moving the priest to another ‘missionary’ parish. The priest turned up at Gatwick airport when he went on to further abuse until finally he was caught and dealt with by the authorities.
And what of Archbishop Cormac?
Promoted by the Vactican to Cardinal.
And here we have him bold as brass writing to the Times, no less to accuse the Prime Minister of an ‘abuse of language.’
You couldn’t make this sort of thing up.
The sooner the world takes note of this organisation/cult as being the biggest threat to the welfare of society, the better.
Father Michael Hill was a curate in my church In Folkestone, Kent, the town I was born and grew up in before leaving for Uni. I was mortified when I learned of his paedophile crimes. Knowing him as I did, I would never have thought he were capable of such appalling crimes. He made no advances towards me or any other boy that I knew in my parish, although another one did a couple of years later.
I hope someone writes to the Times to counter his scurrilous statement. People like him have been getting away with far too much lately. About time someone challenged them for a change.
He was actually Bishop of Arundel at the time, and he later became Archbishop of Westminster.
Cormac O’Connor certainly has previous form as far as making poor judgements goes, this is just more of the same.
Same-sex marriage is an ‘abuse of language’…
…says, the man who covered up child abuse and got away with it.
I don’t seem to be able to say here on PN that Cardinal O’Connor was accused of covering up child abuse and that he apparently got away with it.
Three times I’ve tried to post and it doesn’t show, will keep trying.
I would say that the “Holy” Catholic Dchurch is an abuse of language.
These zealots have no rational defense to support their claims. Marriage has been redefined over the centuries. Women were considered property and purchased, monogamy was not the standard in ancient times, interracial marriage was illegal, divorce and birth control were illegal. If single parents can raise a family, I’m sure that two loving gay parents can also. The idea that having gay parents is going to make your child gay is like saying having straight bparents will make you straight….lol. All the bluster of the Vatican and conservative Catholic clergy is irrational nonsense rooted in homophobia. They ought to be more concerned about pedophilia in their own organization than marriage equality.
This “senior Catholic” understands nothing of marriage, nor should he in any way be considered knowledgeable about “procreation” as he abandoned both by choosing to be a Catholic clergyman. It is likely he continues to support a view of marriage that mimics 1st century biblical constraints upon the role of women within marriage and within society in general.
Over 70% of all marriages are carried out in registry offices and other venues – they have no religious element at all.
Of the less than 30% which are carried out in places of worship, 73.8% took place in the Church of England or Church in Wales, 11.0% in Roman Catholic churches, 11.6% in other Christian churches, and 3.6% in places of worship of non-Christian faiths.
Given so few marriages occur in Catholic churches, and only a small number occur in Mosques, why would we care what Catholic leaders or the self-appointed MCB think.
The link I used was;
British Religion In Numbers.
Useful rebuttle arguments here;
And this is a gem;
Another catholic explaining abuse.
I often wonder – What would Jesus say today of the current organization called the Roman Catholic Church, with it’s leaders who spew hatred and intolerance; it’s huge worldwide property and land ownership, it’s pursuit and struggle to hold on to power; it’s 2000 years of (physical, psychological & emotional) crimes against different sections of humanity (at different times throughout history, of which LGBTQ people are the current target group). What would Jesus say to ALL of this? Would he, can he, recognize this monstrosity of a tree (RC Church) that was planted as a seed by his disciple, Peter? I will never really know the answers to these questioned and don’t claim to know them. But if I had to make an intelligent guess, I’m quite certain Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O’Connor and I would be sitting on opposite sides of the answers to these questions.
I think language can cope with abuse of that sort better than people can cope with the abuse of his bigotry.
Lol ‘abuse of language’ my arse!
Given the desperate attempt of the Catholic Church to distort, twist and subvert the very word of Jesus and God over the years that’s laughable.
The Archbishop clearly wouldn’t recognise the will of God if it came knocking on his door in the middle of the night carrying a namebadge saying ‘hi, I’m the will of God’…
Cardinal O’Connor (the one who covered up child abuse and got away with it) says David Cameron can’t be trusted
Can’t I say this, why is my post being blocked repeatedly?
Isn’t hes the one who covered up child abuse by clergy and got away with it?
“Catholic baiting is the anti-Semitism of the liberals.”
Linguistic analysis: Same-sex Marriage
The semantics of the phrase
The modifier same-sex provides information about the
type of marriage (cf common-law marriage, morganatic
marriage). The modifier is included because the type is
contrary to common societal expectations (cf male nurse).
As societal expectations change, unnecessary modifiers
are omitted. E.g., ‘Lady doctor’ is rarely, if ever, heard in
2005, but was the phrase used for female physicians in
late 1800s and early 1900s.
NB: Before Elizabeth Blackwell in 1849, women were not admitted into
medical schools in the US.
I suppose this moron thinks we should trust a bunch of Catholic priests with 11 and 12 year old boys…Is that how much we should trust Mr. Cameron?
Quite. Headline should be “Cardinal opens mouth and own shoots foot odd” :)
… or even … “..shoots own foot off” ! I really must stop using these bleeding new tablet thingys for typing!
‘The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy.
‘While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful.’
did the Cardinal write this ? – no it was ‘gay icon’ Peter Tatchell …wonder if Stephen Fry has wrote a poem about him yet….oh yes he did !
Google :Gay Liberation , Harriet Harman , PIE (Paedophile Information Exchange), Jamie Rennie LGBT Scotland .Funny how it’s always the homosexual lobby who want the age of consent done away with ?
What else do we expect from Benedict’s anti gay storm troopers. They are all a disgusting lot.
How can Cardinal Cormac talk about abuse?
The amount of Catholic abuse is still being uncovered.
google Jamie Rennie LGBT who was very political about ‘homophobia’ in society – the worst abuse case in british history
How can a Catholic Cardinal talk about abuse? Considering the amount of abuse
has happened by ordaned members of the Catholic church
This man abuses gay Catholics human rights