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Archbishop of Wales: Equal marriage ban for Church in Wales ‘a total shock’

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  1. Pavlos Prince of Greece 15 Dec 2012, 3:08am

    Sorry, Very Reverend,- but all this year many leaders of Church of England has speak nothing more but about they strong opposition against same-sex marriage, both civil and religious, about ‘holy matrimony between man and women as a ground of humanity’, gay marriage as ‘great danger for British society’, judicial risk in the European Court etc. – and now for You this terrible and absurd ban is surprise? Well, not for me, no. Maybe I am naive.

    1. billywingargtenson 15 Dec 2012, 7:44am

      This is a good man, in fact he is a great man. We need to all understand that the ban is only to molify the churches that fear they will be forced into marriages for gays

      I’m sure that in a year or two, the law will be modified (with strict protection provisions to protect those who oppose) to allow the CoE and CoW to do marriages if the church and its religous leaders agree.

      BTW as more and more peole sign on to supporting marriage equality, the churches that oppose will rapidly become extinct as the dinosaurs they are – I;d like to stuff marriagfe equality down the anti’s throats but thats not realistic unless eg 90% of hte people in these nations support marriage =.

      Yes I’m often emotional but we do have to face reality.

      the greatest thrill for me was a very recent article in PN that said 1100 people in England are leaving Xtianity every day.

      To which I replied – with that continued rate in 13 years the churches will be only museums to religious hatred of minorities

    2. John Jones 15 Dec 2012, 9:20am

      He’s not in the Church of England!

      The Church in Wales was disestablished in 1920, and although in the Anglican Communion, is an autonomous body.

      Oh, and to be even more pedantic, an Archbishop is ‘Most Rev’, not ‘Very Rev’, which would make him a major superior in a religious order (I don’t think they have any in the CiW) or the Dean of a Cathedral, etc.

      1. So where was he earlier, championning equal marriage, shouting down the vile bigots in the Anglican community?

      2. Pavlos Prince of Greece 15 Dec 2012, 8:20pm

        Thank you for information! But if Church of Wales is so absolutely independent from Lambeth and can make her own decisions – why this institution still is so dependent from Westminster and can not have same-sex marriage? Her most senior leader, Archbishop of Wales, is in favor of it – its like the Pope will be pro-gay rights in the Catholic Church or Archbishop of Canterbury – in the Church of England, right?.

  2. Yes, this is all about pandering to bigots. I watched the entire 1hr 10min debate on Tuesday where Maria Miller addressed the Commons and almost every question from the Conservative backbenches was “what will you be doing to protect churches from legal action from same sex couples?”.

    The fact of the matter is that there is no legal threat but because they have no reasonable grounds on which to reject same sex marriage, they have resorted to fear-mongering: that churches will be sued.

    This kind of religious freedom infringement turns them into “victims” and us into perpetrators and helps them to garner support for their cause.

    1. What’s also astonishing is the idea that anyone needs ‘protecting’ from the Law – fed by a xenophobic distrust of the ECHR as not being competent at making good and fair rulings just because they sometimes offend the daily Mail & telegraph readership. If someone objects to a law on a matter a conscience they have every right and opportunity to stand on principle, break it and take whatever consequences are forthcoming, just as conscientious objectors did during past wars. It says something about the ‘courage and principles’ of the anti-SS marriage crowd that they want a law to protect them from the consequences of breaking a law,which they just don’t believe in it. If this is truly a ‘matter of conscience’,let them prove it and show us how much their prepared to suffer for their beliefs. And sitting at a keyboard all day forging signatures on a C4M petition is not what I mean by ‘suffer’ here, though I’m guessing very few of them are going to be prepared to do much more than that.

      1. Tim Chapman 15 Dec 2012, 8:33pm

        I wish I could give this post a 1000 thumbs up instead of just 1. Absolutely spot on!

    2. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Dec 2012, 7:22pm

      The thing is, if Dr. Morgan thinks the government is going to drop the CoW from the quadruple lock, he has another think coming. It won’t happen because Morgan is in the very small minority in his church who are in support, both congregants, clergy and hierarchy. It’s a bit late in the game to plead for leniency when there’s no overhwelming support for him. The same applies to the small number of CoE clergy. The fact that Canterbury voted against female bishops should be an indicator as to where they are on equal marriage. NOWHERE near supporting it.

  3. PeterinSydney 15 Dec 2012, 3:38am

    Dr Barry Morgan seems the most reasonable man amongst the other mad members of the C of E hierarchy. And certainly miles ahead of the vicious Catholic lot. Any how they have all brought this on themselves by their ignorance and arrogance. Good riddance to them all I say.

  4. I DON’T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY WANT!!! All this fuss about their protection… Why aren’t they saying thank you? If this was a deliberate ploy by Miller to send them into a confused frenzy it has been incredibly effective.

    1. Craig Nelson 15 Dec 2012, 9:15am

      I think they want the opposite to whatever’s being offered.

    2. Well ideally they’d like to ban everyone else from performing same sex marriage, but if its going ahead anyway they want to be able to perform (very profitable!) gay weddings in their churches.

      They may hate the gays, but they love money more!

  5. Peter & Michael 15 Dec 2012, 7:21am

    We agree with the ban on churches whom have always been against Gay people, if the church wishes to stay in the dark ages let them be, they will never be part of a modern society as the latest census shows. The church have now become part of the retail section of community, whereupon one buys a commodity, whether it be a christening, wedding or funeral, and nothing else! How dare they scorn Gay people.

  6. The religion of peace and love anti-gay shock!

  7. billywingargtenson 15 Dec 2012, 7:43am

    this is a good man, infact a great man. We need to all understand that the ban is only to molify the churches that fear they will be forced into marriages for gays

    I’m sure that in a year or two, the law will be modified (with strict protection provisions to protect those who oppose) to allow the CoE and CoW to do marriages if the church and its religous leaders agree.

    BTW as more and more peole sign on to supporting marriage equality, the churches that oppose will rapidly become extinct as the dinosaurs they are – I;d like to stuff marriagfe equality down the anti’s throats but thats not realistic unless eg 90% of hte people in these nations support marriage =.

    Yes I’m often emotional but we do have to face reality.

    the greatest thrill for me was a very recent article in PN that said 1100 people in England are leaving Xtianity every day.

    To which I replied – with that continued rate in 13 years the churches will be only museums to religious hatred of minorities

    1. If he was a “good” man , he would have no involvement with the evil anglican business.

  8. I think a large part of the problem is that this weak government is so terrified of even the slightest chance of being caught on the wrong end of a reprisal from religious fanatics – of any religion – that in this case we see that it gave in fairly easily to the demands of the evangelical extreme right wing of the church. Which also begs the question: if they can’t even stand up to religious extremists like C4M in this country then why on earth do they seem to think that they can defeat religious fundamentalists overseas in some mythical war against terror?

  9. Reverend, what did you expect?
    You’ve been pontificating against basic equality from your seats in the House of Lords, the ones you were NOT elected into, for years.
    Now someone has got rid of you meddlesome priests. You’ve got what you were asking for.
    Now perhaps you will have the good grace to all up and leave a place you have no right to be in.

  10. Hell mend them.

    It will be illegal for them but officially authorized for others. Good.

  11. Hell mend them.

    It will be illegal for them but officially authorized for others. Good.

  12. Dr Morgan makes some astute comments. Mrs Miller is giving the church exactly what it has been demanding – exemption from equality law and legal permission to continue to pursue bigotry and prejudice as institutional policy. The problem now is that by being provided with this tailor-made legal ban on marrying same-sex couples, the church is effectively being partially disestablished from the state (which will provide equal marriage) and its prejudice highlighted. Even the threat of it is making the church stick out like a sore thumb. Clearly the church elites want to carry on with their policy of discrimination towards LGBTs but they don’t necessarily want to be seen as the only state institution to be doing as much – the ‘only bigot in the village’ so to speak. Dr Morgan is right to tackle the issue and persuade Mrs Miller / David Cameron to drop the legal apartheid they are suggesting for the church.

  13. Jock S. Trap 15 Dec 2012, 12:00pm

    Personally I think the best thing Dr Morgan can do is let this legistlation go through. Then campaign to be included.

    The lock was put in place to appease the nasty bigots and they still aren’t pleased about it. Then they never will.

    However the lock was in place and left for individual Churches to campaign to change the law. This would be better now the law is going through now.

    1. Jock S. Trap 15 Dec 2012, 12:01pm

      PS – I think it’s great that Dr Morgan is speaking out about this.

    2. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Dec 2012, 2:25pm

      It’s not really a permanent lock for both denominations. What they need to do is have a vote and a change in canon law to unlock both options, then submit it to Parliament. I’ve no doubt, there is no consensus in both churches to support equal marriage. Dr. Morgan is just one lonely voice in the wilderness, where are the others, his bishops, priests in all this, why haven’t their views been heard? Where were they prior to, during and after the consultation?

      I doubt if there is much support in the CoE given the recent vote against female bishops, an indicator of how rabidly they are against full equality of women in the church. There is no reason why they’d give up on equal marriage, not with Justin Welby totally opposed. What is it, just two or three bishops supporting it? Not enough.

  14. Look.It’s simple. The Church of England and the Church of Wales will be arrested and taken to court if they attempt to perform a same sex marriage. What is difficult for them to understand?

  15. He needs to speak out against the sacremongering C4M (the anti-equality coalition for marriage) who have been running a deliberate campaign of misinformation throughout the period of the same sex marriage consultation.

    Unfortunately these persistent and extreme evangelicals are so shrill and have been lobbying MP’s so incessantly that their divisive voices have been given greater prominence than the more liberal Christians.
    Place the blame where it belongs… with C4M and those MP’s who are pushing it’s nasty homophobic agenda.

  16. Does anyone else see the irony in this? The Church of England asked for legal protection from gay people. But it has turned out that gay people are being protected from the Church of England. It will be the Church of England who will be the ones breaking the law, not the gay couple asking to be married. The exact opposite of where the Church of England wanted the law to apply. And that’s why they are complaining now. The Church of England has been picked out for special treatment, a discriminatory law that will only apply to them, in the same way that the Church of England wanted special discriminatory laws to apply to gay people only.. Thank God for homophobic Tories for thinking up this brilliant shoot-yourself-in-the-foot plan.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Dec 2012, 2:16pm

      Yes Mike, I’ve been saying the same in other posts. Although Maria Miller didn’t for a minute construe the quadruple lock as a vindictive, spiteful move, what she did was grant the CoE especially all of the guarantees and protections that it and its Tory back benchers had asked for. Then only a day after, it said it was comfortable with the new law and then shortly after had the gall to complain about not being consulted beforehand.

      Has anyone noticed the astounding silence of the Tory back benchers and C4M? Maybe the bogus shock was just too much for them not realising that the government have truly called their bluff and in a way diminished the power of the CoE in doing so. I give full credit and gratitude to Maria Miller for taking such a bold, radical move and having the courage, as a Tory to do it. The right wing religious bigots are going to have an extremely difficult time trying to come up with some other nonsense to oppose equal marriage. They’re out of excuses.

  17. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Dec 2012, 2:09pm

    What I’d like to know is how many among his clergy and hierarchy support him? Is there a majority? Nobody knows and he’s not made that apparent. If there is, then yes, he should pursue it. I didn’t hear much vocal support from the CoW as a whole during the consultation.

    He should have been more proactive to have the CoW excluded from the quadruple lock, but he wasn’t, none of them were. There should have been a meeting between all of the heads of supportive denominations to address the issue the issue of exclusion prior to Maria Miller’s decision.

    I really don’t have much sympathy for Dr. Morgan although I praise him for his support. He is one of the few good men in religious circles. I just don’t see the situation being reversed unless there is an overall consensus in the CoW to be dropped from the ban. I would like to see it happen only because I want the Anglican church to be the only one singled out and marginalised in perpetuity where it deservedly belongs.

  18. Hysterical Screamer No. 243 15 Dec 2012, 4:30pm

    I would be great if some of you could visit the following page, read through the comments of liberal homophobes, and reply to them with reasonable but confounding arguments? It’s horrifying, I think, that so many liberals are homophobic.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/14/raise-glass-gay-marriage-lives-better

  19. There’s an old saying: Be careful what you ask for — you might get it.

  20. http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/welsh-politics/welsh-politics-news/2012/04/18/archbishop-of-wales-says-gay-marriage-deserves-the-welcome-of-the-church-91466-30786073/ – commentators need to realise the CofE and the CofW are not the same. And Dr Morgan has been accepting of the Governments plans, some of these comments seem very unfair.

  21. Oh dear-the plot thickens!

  22. GulliverUK 16 Dec 2012, 8:29am

    And the people you vilified and poured hate upon, and whom you denomised should care about this because …… [ insert excuse here ]

  23. In Canada, they changed the law and added: “It is recognized that officials of religious groups are free to refuse to perform marriages that are not in accordance with their religious beliefs.” This removed any possibility of someone suing a church to make them perform these marriages. Not sure why the UK need more than this.

  24. Or…he could start dealing with the dirty kiddy fiddling priests in his church… Bigot.

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