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UK: New Archbishop signals openness on LGBT issues

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  1. Has he BEEN to Malawi?

    If so- it didn’t do much good!

    1. What does Malawi have to do with anything?

  2. I would like to know his real reasons for being against same sex marriage, and I would not accept “because the bible says so” as a response.

    1. Because he’s a bigotted scumbag.

      There is no valid reason for these ridiculous cultists to be opposed to equality.

    2. Robert in S. Kensington 9 Nov 2012, 5:09pm

      I totally agree. Plus, he can no longer raise the procreation nonsense since many heterosexuals often marry or remarry later in life in a civil ceremony, especially those who’ve divorced, some of whom are adulterers and serial adulterers. There is no reference to civil marriage in the bible. It’s a fairly new phenomenon, as recent as the 19th century in the UK. It has no religious component and is not with the CoE’s remit, so any excuse he proffers is nothing more than lame. Whatever reasons he provides, he needs to come forward with the factual evidence.

    3. de Villiers 9 Nov 2012, 6:10pm

      Well then McCabe – you don’t want to know his real reasons then because the answer he is likely to give is likely to be theological.

      1. roderious 9 Nov 2012, 7:05pm

        his answer may be theological but that is an excuse not a real reason

    4. He cannot say “because the bible says so” because he is in favour of women bishops and the bible forbids women from even speaking in church. Women clergy is one of the reasons Saint Widdecombe joined the catholic church.

  3. To the Oilybigot of Canterbury. Change your stance on gay marriage now..

  4. He says he has “no truck with any form of homophobia” because he’s one of these people who think that it’s acceptable to be against gay marriage and not be considered to be homophobic. It’s akin to Nick Griffin saying he’s not racist!

  5. Don’t listen! It’s a lying trick from another outright bigot and credulous fool! The only differenec between this homophobe and the one he replaces is we can see this one coming. By the way, this message is only for those who give a phuque about what the prattling primates say anyway, and since I don’t, I’m going to stop and go and have a cup of tea!

    1. Why couldn’t you have had the cup of tea instead, rather than telling us how much you don’t care?

  6. His comments make no sense to me, just sounds like another apologist for the phobes.

  7. That There Other David 9 Nov 2012, 3:44pm

    AoC does as is expected of AoC. That he says one thing and means another in order to appease is to be expected. The Church’s issues are the Church’s to deal with, and that’s his battle to fight.

    But his remit still very much ends at the church doors. If the government allows the Church to sway their position on this at all then the government is not doing its jown ob.

    1. That There Other David 9 Nov 2012, 4:01pm

      LOL @ jown ob. This is what happens when someone distracts me with Diwali sweets :-)

  8. Midnighter 9 Nov 2012, 4:02pm

    People in the main clearly don’t care about this irrelevant bit of Church politics.

    Since the early rumours yesterday I’ve been monitoring the BBC’s most shared / read /discussed stories. Only for very short periods have articles relating to this appointment trended.

    One called “Justin Time” was there for a few hours, which had pictures of Justin Bieber and other celebrities on the article link and probably suckered people into clicking in the first place.

    The ‘main’ article was there for a very short period (hour max) today in last position.

    And yet in spite of this apparent lack of public interest the BBC TV news has featured several quite long pieces on it (or maybe they just ‘felt’ long).

  9. He’s opposed to marriage equality and yet he pretends to be against homophobia?

    The stupidity of these religious morons is astounding.

    Why don’t we have a separation of church and state in Britain.

    These Cult of England lunatics are sitting in the unelected House of Lords and are allowed to obstruct our equal civil rights?

  10. Charliie-O 9 Nov 2012, 4:07pm

    Summary: “I’m against any form of exclusion, but I’m for excluding gays from being bishops and against same-sex marriage. But I’ll think and pray about this.”

    Not good enough. Not even close!! LGBT people should not be fooled by this bigot’s equivocating statement.

  11. Hmm…..Does “no truck with homophobia” mean “Of course I don’t hate you! I just think you’re lesser human beings and not worthy of equal rights – but I love you all!”

    1. Exactly . . . or In a nutshell

      I am not homophobic, but I am going to continue to say and do homophobic things, because if I say I am not homophobic, this will some how negate my homophobia.

      Do Cambridge University really want to acknowledge that they gave him a degree?

  12. Cardinal Capone 9 Nov 2012, 4:17pm

    So how did he get appointed after only being a bishop for a year?

    Oh look, he went to Eton. That seems to be a major requirement for anything these days.

    1. roderious 9 Nov 2012, 7:08pm

      How old is he? would he have been there the same time as David Cameron?

      1. Unlikely – 56yo as opposed to 46yo.

      2. Cardinal Capone 10 Nov 2012, 2:17pm

        Irrelevant, it’s still the Old School Tie.

  13. Paul from Brighton 9 Nov 2012, 4:21pm

    Let’s be perfectly clear here.

    How can someone who has been appointed in some sort of secretive process, which is beyond public scrutiny, promise Openness?

    And how can someone who is now the leader of a Church, which released statement opposing same-sex-marriage declare he will about having no form of ‘truck’ with homophobia?

    Dipstick.

  14. George Broadhead 9 Nov 2012, 4:29pm

    Has anyone thought to ask him whether he approves of gay sexual relationships?

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 9 Nov 2012, 5:14pm

      Quite! I don’t see him even supporting connubial relations between a same-sex clergy couple. He’s not the type to go the extra mile or stick his neck out. He’s like many politician, afraid to take on his church and its blatant bigotry towards gay people.

  15. Good. I hope that he relaxes his stance at least enough to allow individual churches to make their own decisions about whether to hold same sex marriages. When I heard he’d been appointed, I thought that was it for my hopes of a church wedding, but this sounds more like he’s willing to be flexible than I feared.
    His opinions mean very little to most, but a huge amount to anyone who is both gay and christian. I hope that he will listen to us.

  16. Full equality is a bottom line whether he likes it or not.

  17. Robert in S. Kensington 9 Nov 2012, 5:18pm

    The only thing he should do is say he’s not opposed to the government legalising equal marriage even though he and the majority in his hierarchy remain opposed. At least that would be acceptable and take out the sting and fear mongering among the right wing religious nutters and gutter press that are the Daily Mail and Telegraph. Yet, I don’t think he’s going to be that pragmatic or progressive. If it were doable, David Cameron should have found someone who is prepared, more qualified and a better visionary to do just that.

  18. Haha, whatevers really.

    Doea anyone remember the previous front-runner … the “black” guy (just to say it so un-pc).

    For how many months was the back guy the favourite and right to be the next one?

    Where did he go?

    It shows you that they can’t even bear the thought of a coloured person as the leader (who was more qualified, and yes, scarier and more extreme, but more in line with CofE dogma), so they had to choose a guy, any guy, with a shred of credibility.

    Disestablishment seems more poignant than ever.

    1. Where did he go? He remains in the second most senior position in the church.

      (BTW we don’t say ‘coloured’ any more. If you mean black, say so – there’s nothing un-PC about it.)

  19. de Villiers 9 Nov 2012, 6:13pm

    The difficulty is that those who are secular talk past those who are religious. Those who are religious do not understand why they are called bigoted and those who are secular cannot understand how the religious are not bigoted.

    1. we rational people cannot indeed understand whu otherwiase intelligent people believe such codswallop, yes. Never mind, there is really no need for the two sides to meet or compromise: the religious will lose and the battle the religious (and the treasonable gays who support them) have fought so long against equality will be finally lost.

      1. ‘The religious will lose’ – I wish I had your confidence. While Catholic and episcopalian churches might be losing ground in many countries, evangelism seems to be working alarmingly well in many other parts of the world. To say nothing of Islam, or even Mormonism.

    2. I agree completely. Every side is just shouting at the rest, blasting them with insults (as Harry has so kindly demonstrated) which does nothing to change minds except to more firmly entrench the views. Meanwhile, the ‘treasonable’ gays and moderates in the church are stuck in the middle going “you’re all morons” and being ignored, because neither side wants to believe that there is a middle ground to be found.

  20. The Virgin Mary 9 Nov 2012, 6:32pm

    He just looks so much like a particular kind of gay man, doesn’t he.

    1. Because judging by appearances usually works so well, doesn’t it?

  21. GingerlyColors 9 Nov 2012, 6:46pm

    And I have no truck with those who realise that the Church does not have a monopoly on marriage.

  22. If you want to see rabid fundamentalist Christians at their most irrational, rabid and desperate, have a look at today’s Daily Telegraph article comments on the appointment of the new Archbish.:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9666371/New-Archbishop-Justin-Welby-pledges-re-think-on-gay-relationships.html#dsq-comments

  23. Give him time people…. give him time.. as an Anglican I think he will get there he has already said he will dialog with us.

    1. Rubbish. The previous incumbent made liberal noises and we got nowhere. Do you seriously think he is going to change his views, as an evangelical, on gay marriage. he should be treated with contempt.

    2. Godric Godricson 10 Nov 2012, 12:51pm

      They have had 2,000 years to get this right……still getting there?

  24. I’m with Paul. Barack Obama showed no out-and-out support for marriage equality either before his presidency began or for much of his first term. He said precisely what Dr Welby is saying here – that he needed to listen and examine his own thinking. Maybe we will yet see an evolution in Dr Welby’s thinking, just as we have witnessed this year with Obama.

    I only hope that Dr Welby doesn’t listen to some of the self-righteous, ill-considered comments that frequently get posted on this site. Some of the comments on this story, for example, are unfairly personal and smack of intolerance.

    Pink News is right to highlight the new Archbishop’s stated openness on LGBT issues. It is a welcome fresh start for all of us and although it begins from a position that we might not like (I’m referring to Dr Welby’s renewed support for the House of Bishops’ summer statement) I really do think that his other comments on LGBT issues are encouraging.

    The tenacity of hope!

    1. Barack Obama may not been in favor of ssm when he first ran for office, but he was not in favor of excluding people from the military or firing them from jobs in the government. This bigot is not in favor of equal rights and he is no Barack Obama.

    2. Oh yes……! “Hope springs eternal…….blah blah blah…..” and “….when all the demons and ills that pervade the world had escaped Pandora’s Box, the only thing left was HOPE!” It seems that one is backing an omnipresent but rather lazy quality if one puts money on HOPE. It’s so indeterminate and becomes a mere onlooker when good old “proactivity” takes the field.

      Reference our dear Justin, people are quite right…Give the guy a break and let him get his breath back; the thought of all thos embroidered, gem encrusted frocks would certainly go to THIS boy’s head. HOWEVER….it might have been “nice” to have had some kind of positively encouraging statement from the guy, particularly as next Saturday 17th November, my lover of the last eleven years and I will be married according to the Constitutional Equality measures of the wonderful South Africa! We shall be married by a former Anglican vicar who has left the Anglican community to join The African Church of Truth.

  25. brownfingeredfiddler 9 Nov 2012, 7:56pm

    The hypocrisy from the homosexuals on here is breathtaking. On one hand they require that their deviance is immune fromchurch criticism yet on the other hand they are guily of prejudice and hate speech toward the sc.at community who hurt nobody,
    The sc;at community have been labelled deviant and disgusting by the very people that say what happens amomgst consenting adults in their own bedrooms in nobody’s business.
    As it happens, the sc;at community do not a history of disproportionate child abuse as do the homodeviant brigade/
    As for me, I find both communities morally repugnant.

    1. That There Other David 9 Nov 2012, 11:47pm

      Opposite sex couples who like a bit of poo fun can get married, same sex couples into rolling around in the brown stuff cannot. Therefore this sc;at community you obviously love to think about so much is as divided between opposite-sex and same-sex couples as couples throughout the rest of the UK.

      Which means that your entire argument is utterly pointless, as well as being more than a little infantile.

    2. I find your religious and sexual mania morally irrelevant. And more than a little tedious.

  26. When he comes to Canterbury to take over the reigns from Rowan, why don’t we all just form a nice orderly line, holding hands as he goes into the Cathedral? All of us that can, should be there on the day!

    1. It’s ‘reins’, dear.
      “Reigns” is what the lady at Buck House does.
      x

  27. As a 21 year old gay Christian, fiercely pro-Gay rights, these are the right sort of things he’s saying at this stage.

    Even if you’re atheist, or even strongly anti-Christian, please know we’re not all bad!

    It’s a tiny minority who are actually homophobic I believe. In the main most people just accept it because they know the Church has been of that opinion for a while, and they haven’t heard the pro-Gay Christian arguments. I think many people will be open to change when it comes to it.

    If he is against homophobia – and therefore, by extension, he’s pro Gay marriage – he should gently allow the arguments to be heard.

    It won’t happen overnight, that would be a temporary fix, but handled carefully I hope to see the Church strongly open up to Gay people within 2 years.

    If it doesn’t it’s doomed. I can see the Church appears sexist and homophobic to the ‘outside world’. Working together – LGBT movement and the Church – will mean the most happiness for the maximum number of people.

    1. .,brownfingeredfiddler 9 Nov 2012, 9:22pm

      As a Christian could you tell me if eating each others poo is acceptable to God. The bible doesn’t mention it and nor did Jesus so it must be ok for Christian, yes?
      I often wonder why sccat is not promoted in schools like homosexuality. Both are practiced by the minority and both homos and poo eaters are born with those desires.

      1. You seem to be fascinated by poop. Can you tell us how you got that way? It must be a terrific story.

        1. Actually I think it’d be as seriously boring as this disturbed individual is in other respects.

        2. --brown.fingered.fiddler,/ 10 Nov 2012, 8:50pm

          Tell us how you got homodeviant?

    2. “If he is against homophobia – and therefore, by extension, he’s pro Gay marriage”

      He re-asserted his opposition to equal marriage, I believe. I’m guessing his ‘against homophobia’ stance will turn out to be something like condemning attacks on LGBT people and nothing to do with equal marriage at all.

      1. I fear that’s likely to be what actually happens… But I’m not closing my mind off to him and hold out that he’ll do the right thing.

        Even if he’s pro-Gay I can accept, albeit it that it’s a ridiculous situation, that he can’t sing it from the rafters immediately. But as long as he pushes the argument that little bit more every few weeks, we could be in a really strong position by this time next year. He’s got to start by showing the Church will not block the Government’s fight for gay marriage.

        Frankly the Church has to choose, on issues like this, between keeping a small handful of people happy – people not worthy to call themselves ‘Christian’ with their anti-love message, or accepting change and looking like an attractive community to join.

        If I hadn’t been brought up as a Christian, and therefore hadn’t spent the time reflecting on gay issues in the Church myself, there’s no way I’d consider becoming a Christian. From an outside perspective I can see how miserable it looks.

        1. If you accept how it looks from the outside why don;t you have the guts to leave rather than accepting the indoctrination (Dawkins is right to label it “abuse”) you got from your parents

          1. Well because, as I say, the Church stands for much more than those issues – even if it doesn’t always seem it from outside.

            My parents may have introduced me to the Church, but it has always been my own choice whether I go or not. My sister stopped attending and no pressure was put on her at all. My Dad doesn’t even go to Church.

            I did go to a Cathedral school, which I consider myself very fortunate for, but even there I was in a tiny minority as a Christian – most were atheist! So I have had many opportunities to leave.

            If the CofE could change on these issues it is, in many other places, a great organisation.

    3. You sound like a confused hypocrite to me. Why do you support an institution that is so bigotted against us? Your very presence in a church, putting money in the collection bag, fuels their anti-gay campaign.

      Also, you say he is saying the rights things. he has specifically said he against equal marriage: if you think those are the right things perhaps you are one of those uncle Toms who believe that we should be content with second rate civil partnerships and not marriage?

      You can be gay, You can be Christian. You cannot be both, and still be sane and intellectually respected.

      1. I can see your points – but maybe I’m not clear enough, I apologise.

        Well the Church stands for a heck of a lot more than anti-gay slander. My local church stands, for me, as an expression of generations of love for God and community. For me it’s a really important part of my life and, no matter how hard I’ve sometimes found it, I still believe in God and Jesus.

        I stay a member for that reason. I am currently planning my coming out towards the end of the year, and I then hope to dedicate a lot of time to promoting the message that you CAN be Christian and gay. I don’t think there’s anything in the Bible forbidding it personally! The quotes you hear are out of context and misunderstood.

        But please don’t accuse me of being an Uncle Tom. I believe gay and straight people should be able to marry in exactly the same way. Nothing wrong with Civil Partnerships – but it’s like saying the “toilet outside for the Help is just as good as ours indoors, so why should they use the one indoors?”

        1. I like your toilet analogy, however…

          I venture a forecast, however.

          At the momement you are hanging on to the comfort blanket created in part by your parents’ blatant indoctrination. when you come out (surely in this day and age you could have managed this before now or are your parents uniquely old fashioned?). When you do, and you find that the bigotry of the Christians really hits you (they will wrap it round with the low the sinner hate the sin stuff but they will discriminatre against you nonetheless) you will realise either that belief in God doesn;t need a church or more likely that the whole concept of bvlief is a meme inherited from your family which (like the family) you do without.

          You heard it here first….

          1. I respond in part to your points about my faith above, and maybe I will lose my faith, but I’ve seen the best side of the Church in my lifetime as well – and I would be sorry to see that go.

            My Mum told me 10 years ago she wouldn’t mind if I were gay – so there’s never been an anti-gay feeling at home. I probably would have go to this stage upon leaving school 3 years ago therefore, were it not for an illness that I don’t want to go into here that’s only cleared in August and basically robbed me of life for 3 years.

            But why would I want to ‘do without’ my family? They support me in many ways, I’ve supported them during this illness for 3 years (I wasn’t the one who was ill). Coming out will change the dynamic, but I hope it won’t change our supporting, loving household.

          2. I am sorry that you were ill and am glad that you are better. But please please do address the intellectual arguments about Christianity and not just hang on because there are some Christians who allegedly do good things. There are plenty of good athiests you know – and do not expect a universally smooth ride amongst the gay community for a Christian when you finally come out.

          3. Harry, you make these comments with such little sense of irony! You come across as the indoctrinated one who is eulagising a poisonous postmodern creed which seeks to discriminate, segregate and destroy those ideologies which do not agree with your own, even to the extent to advocated that families should be fragmented. How are you different to those you decry?

          4. I have no wish to destroy families. But reason will almost certainly triumph over unreason, at least in the more civilised parts of the world. And those that choose, as Private does, to embrace unreason for no other reason than his parents forced it into him, will have a bumpy ride.

            I, for the record, had one religious parent and one not. So I was free of indoctrination.

          5. But reason will almost certainly triumph over unreason, at least in the more civilised parts of the world.

            For example, in the land of Goethe and Schiller 80 years ago? How I wish I could be as confident in my belief as you.

          6. I think our main difference is that you see religion as unreason – I see reason in it.

            I know athiests, lifelong Christians, newly-converted Christians, and members of other religions too. Some are nice people, some not. But there’s little correlation between any of those groups and nice people – people are or aren’t regardless of religion I find.

            Just as you can’t understand religion, others can’t understand homosexuality. If we could all open up to understanding others we’d all be a lot happier.

      2. I’ve often wondered, do equal rights for gay people not extend to the right to religious beliefs?

        1. I think people should have the freedom to be gay, the freedom to be religious, and the freedom to be both or neither.

          As long as one group doesn’t force others to play by their rules, and don’t hurt anyone, they should have that freedom.

  28. As long as the CofE tones down their objection to SSM and starts accepting and allowing CPs to be performed in their churches then I’ll be happier.

    I’m under no delusion that they will ever move quickly on SSM nor will allow SS couples to be married in their churches.

    If the church are willing to accept Cameron’s/Miller’s opt outs from SSM and allow everone else to do SSM then that fines, otherwise they’ll contine to be nasty old bullying homophobes to me.

  29. He’s no homophobe. He just doesn’t think gay people should have equal rights, either in or out of the church. Bigot.

  30. The only thing worse than a bigot is a cowardly bigot who pretends to be indecisive about his bigotry in a futile attempt to avoid being labelled for what he is, an anti-gay bigot.

    You know where you can shove your notional olive branch Justin Furby.

  31. Looks like an explosion at Bird’s Custard factory.

    What is it with these clerics..?

    What drives them to dress up in their mum’s curtains and the best lampshades from BHS and go for the 12th. century look…?

    All a bit ‘gay’ if you ask me and I should know, ‘cos I am very gay.
    Takes one….et cetera…

    Can I just hear, “Does my head look big in this….does my cope swish nicely….does it catch the light as I twirl…the train flow nicely……?”

    FFS.

    What relevance has all this today other than as a rehearsal for the part of Widow T.Wanquee in Aladdin (is it Aladdin?) at Chrimbo…….?

    The Catholics are the best at it; endless, endless outfits.
    Marvellous for the schmatter trade, that’s about it…

    Glad I gave up the Catholic bit 51 years ago; never been inside a church since.

    Now, where did I put my sewing basket……JEEEEEEZ……!

    Keith
    SALFORD

  32. Welby talks in terms of whether or not he will accept and/or be tolerant of other people but he never once considers things from the point of view of whether the rest of us will accept him. I don’t recall Jesus saying diddly squat about LGBTQ people going to hell in the Bible but he does make a somewhat strong hint that a rich male has a very narrow chance of getting into heaven, irrespective of sexuality. Curious indeed that Christians would be far less likely to question the appointment of a such a wealthy oil baron like Mr Welby than they would if he had been gay and of humble means.

  33. Basically a re-tread of George ‘I always listen to my homosexual friends’ Carey. Homophobia with a sickly smile on its face. Let’s disestablish these shamans once and for all.

  34. “But I also know I need to listen very attentively to the LGBT communities…”

    After ten years of Williams what else is there to discuss? The government has already told the COE to sort itself out and recognise full equality is the bottom line.

  35. Dis-establishment and NOW…!
    Utterly irrelevant in 2012.

    And the monarchy while we’re at it.

  36. Godric Godricson 10 Nov 2012, 12:50pm

    Let’s remember that everyone has to obey the law! Church or state, it doesn’t matter. Perhaps we are seeing the start of Anglican Sharia where the Church believes it is a co-equal legal Authority which does not have to obey the secular law?

    Archbishop designate Welby could be paraphrased as saying…”I listen to my Gay friends although I don’t have to treat them equally under the law!”

  37. brown.fingered.fiddler,/ 10 Nov 2012, 6:38pm

    He doesn;t mention sca;t incest rape or bestiality either. do you reckon that is acceptable also?
    Jesus condemned fornication. Since all homosexual sex in his day was fornication, buff said. The bible condemns men lying with men and sodomy in numerous verses. Jesus held that the old testament (which he often quoted) was the truth (John 17:17). This means that he would have been in agreement with God’s moral code and not have had need to repeat to the bleedin obvious, that the back passage is for poo only and same sex relations are a capital crime in God’ eyes.

  38. --brown.fingered.fiddler,/ 10 Nov 2012, 8:27pm

    @ That other david…
    You completely miss the point. Why do you and your ilk (homo–deviants) contradict yourselves by saying homosexuality is natural as you are born that way and it is nobody’s business what happens in the bedroom between consenting adults yet the sc@t community who are also born that way and also confine their deviance to the bedroom are ostracized on here by the homodeviant community and labelled disgusting?
    You filthy deviants cry homophobe if anyone so much as baulks at hmoosexuality yet you are quick to condemn the practice of sc@t. On which grounds is their deviance worse than yours? To date,nobody has died from sc@t yet homosexuals are way over-represented in the AIDS community and homosexuals and bisexuals have passed on AIDS even to innocent babies in the womb.
    Sca@t is gross but you lot are repugnant..

  39. --brown.fingered.fiddler,/ 10 Nov 2012, 8:31pm

    @ Private

    You claim to be a homodeviant Christian. You avoided this difficult question so I ask again…As a Christian could you tell me if eating each others poo is acceptable to God. The bible doesn’t mention it and nor did Jesus so it must be ok for Christian, yes? Jesus also did not mention rape, bestiality or consensual incest. All ok?

    1. your ignorance and hate is mindboggling

  40. This chap is priceless. Double standards, two faced, homophobe all rolled into one. Priceless just priceless. He might just as well be Roman Catholic.

  41. However he ‘re-thinks’ his position on equal marriage, his problem will be the African & right-wing American churches, whose numbers comprise the majority of Anglicans. Trying to get these on board the liberal agenda brought Rowan Williams down, and it will be fascinating to see how Dr Welby copes with the problem.

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