Greece is a sinking ship. Is this the priority for Greeks now?
Are they still a minority group or are the golden dawn lot gaining ground?
Relatively a minority, BUT definitely gaining ground. The far right has never solved anything. I wonder why the country that invented the concept of democracy would backslide so horribly now.
” I wonder why the country that invented the concept of democracy would backslide so horribly now.”
Sadly, the history of Europe in the 20th century offers an answer, there. Austerity measures in 1920s Germany let a nasty minority group gain ground!!
They’ve slid there a long time ago. I’d say about the time of the Byzantine Empire. (Where do you think Russia and the rest of Eastern Orthodox got their love for a strong hand?
The fact that the city-state of Athens, which happens to have been within the modern-day Greece, ‘invented the concept of democracy’ is utterly irrelevant since that form of government came to an end nearly 2000 years ago. You might recall that after wresting independence from centuries of Ottoman rule in the 19c it had a series of not-terribly-successful monarchies, long before it came anywhere near to being what we’d call a democracy today.
If Greece is a sinking ship, the UK is an ocean floor, and surprise surprise, here too the far right is gaining ground.
I wonder if Christianity would exist had it been proved that Jesus Christ was gay? He surrounded himself with 12 men and what could be called today as a potential fag hag, Mary Magdelene. Imagine a religion free world? An ideal utopian fantasy of mine.
Sad to see Greece, an ancient civilisation and culture regressing having given so much to the world.
Some people (fictional or otherwise) are not gay. Get over it.
How do you know which ones? Does Baby Jesus whisper in your ear?
Lets not forget about John, the disciple that lay his head on Christ’s breast at the last supper. Christ may not have been gay, but some of his followers certainly were.
You know, as the meal described was almost certainly undertaken in the Greek style, with pairs recumbent on shared couches, there was – sadly, perhaps – nothing especially unusual about a young man lying back against his couch-partner and nodding off.
Inside his tunic?
And just who was the naked youth in the Garden of Gethsemane that ran off when Jesus was arrested?
There’s a detailed analysis here. Western translators have been shy of clarifying the closeness of Jesus and his beloved disciple that is suggested in St. John.
This is one of the few situations that I feel truly proud to be an Albanian
But, Jerry, Albania is Muslim. So are you saying that your Albanian theatre groups have been able to portray Mohammed as a gay man?
ALBANIA IS NOT MUSLIM !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Albania is a very secular country were religion plays no role in society whatsoever .It is the only country IN THE WORLD that did declared itself atheist in 1967.At least 70% of the population is not religious and our national Moto is ”Dont go to the mosques and churches because the religion of Albania is Albanianism”.Very religious persons are called ”the lost”(they have lost their minds) and i personally bash religion in public and people are indifferent or even supportive.I personally am a third generation atheist and i know a lot more people who are the like me
Jerry, you cannot deny that Muslims constitute the largest religious grouping in Albania.
Anyway, can you point to evidence that a portrayal of either Mohammed OR Jesus as gay men has occurred on the stages or screens of Albania? If not, then I cannot understand why the closing of the play in Athens should make you proud to be Albanian.
I think he was proud that an Albanian directed the play. Just saying. In the future you should read comments before jumping up and down with your Islamophobia and your Albania bashing.
Jerry, the Encyclopaedia Britannica gives the following facts.
“As a legacy of nearly five centuries of Ottoman rule, Albania is a predominantly Muslim country. However, as a result of the rigid enforcement of atheism during the communist regime, today most Albanians are adherents of religious groups in name only and practice largely secular lifestyles. . . In the early 21st century about seven-tenths of the Albanian population was nominally Muslim, more than half of them Sunni Muslims and the next largest group being the Bektashi sect. Those who identified with Eastern Orthodoxy constituted about one-fifth of the population, and those associated with Roman Catholicism constituted about one-tenth. Muslims are spread throughout the country, although they particularly dominate the centre.”
Zak, an Albanian did not direct the play. A person of Greek Orthodox heritage directed the play. Laertis Vasiliou (of typically Greek name) happens only to have been born in Albania. There have for centuries been substantial communities of Greek Orthodox living in that region that is now known as Albania. I hope you will now stand corrected and show appropriate remorse for assuming, wrongly, that I did not read the article.
The census of albania in 2011 showed that 70% did not declare religion (see wikipedia ,some other source newer than 1930 or if you dont believe them JUST VISIT US !!!The rest is divided betwen christians and muslims. I can tell that i have called Mohammed a pedophile in PUBLIC and no one said a thing !! Can you say that in anywhere ???? I am proud because even the christians here showed solidarity with him. I hope you understand me now
Jerry, the passage I pasted in above, giving the facts of religious groupings at this time in Albania, is cited as follows:
Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition.
Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc., 2012. Web. 1 Nov. 2012.
I’m delighted to hear though that you appear to have gone about the main streets of bustling Tirana, with its great mix of peoples, declaring at the top of your voice that Mohammed is a paedophile. I am surprised though that you report that no one took offence. I wonder why that may have been.
I see that you are not reading you own arguments ”today most Albanians are adherents of religious groups IN NAME ONLY and practice largely SECULAR LIFESTYLES. .” but i can tell that the Laertis Vasiliou has an albanian father and greek mother and that his name does not determine his nationality.I dont know were you are from but i think I am in a better postion to jugde the albanians considering that i live in albania
Fine, Jerry. I’m very happy for you. You keep walking around the busy streets of Tirana calling out “Mohammed is Paedophile!” at the top of your voice. Good work!
@ … … .
… ….A bit mad that this thread has become a slanging match about the religious delusions or none of Albania, when it should be concerned with the rise once again of far right fascists in Europe, something the inception of the European Union was supposed to prevent. Once again the vile infection that is religion raises its ugly head.
Guys, cool it. You’ve seriously lost the point here.
Now ‘bad’ play, later ‘bad’ books, than, of course, some bar or even organisation of ‘bad’- gay – people. Aggressor as ‘victim’ in the fight for ‘morality’. Scenario is old as is world.
Any Greek who votes for these animals needs a history book donated to them and a tee-shirt that reads “fool”.
Golden Dawn. Let’s remember this name. That’s the name that is going to be spoken when gay people will be persecuted and have their rights denied in Greece if the far-right takes over the country.
Same-sex marriage in Greece still is illegal (Supreme Court will make decision on this very soon, but I think, the judicial answer will be ‘No’), gay thematic like, for example, pride events in two largest Greek cities or same-sex kisses in British serials still are object of censorship in the media, and homosexuality still rest strong social taboo in the big part of Greek society, dominated by Orthodox Church, and ‘dangerous issue’ for clerical political class of Greek ‘Republic’ too (excepting left party ‘Syriza’). What more can do Golden Dawn against gay rights today in Greece? Only return homosexuality to Penal Code again, as it was before 1951 ? Well… Worse can be ever, I know.
Pavlos “Prince of Greece”, most interesting to read all you have to say! Are you writing from inside Greece? I have gay Greek friends in Greece. None of them would join me for Athens Pride. They were disappointed that I wanted to be part of the march. However, there were thousands of Greeks (gays, lesbians, trans, and straights) on the march, so not all gays and lesbians in Greece are like my Greek friends. But the experience proved to me that there are many who still hide. So Greece has got a long way to go, hasn’t it. But the first thing to do is get Chrysi Avgi out of the way! If this next loan doesn’t get through I hate to think what might happen.
Yes, Eddy, our poor and clerical Greece has very long way to go indeed. My only hope for the near future still is left (or ‘radical left’, so opinion of the Western medias) party ‘Syriza’, only Greek party in favor of same-sex marriage. But is it possible in such clerical state and society, as the Greek so long was and still is? I think, no, even in case of landslide victory of radical left. Maybe civil partnership?.. I think, every political-judicial freedom can never exist in total contradiction to social-cultural reality, and so is with gay rights today in such homophobic country like Greece. If some people have fear to join You for Athens Pride, how can they one day to go marry? Tolerance is maybe possible only in moderate society, not in radical one. Chrysi Avgi must go out of the way, of course! But clerical structure of this state too – and, yes, this change must be very ‘radical’ indeed! (I live and writing now not from Greece.)
“If some people have fear to join You for Athens Pride, how can they one day to go marry?”
So true, Pavlos, so true. I hadn’t made that connection. Thank you for that.
Yes, so many problems. Two days ago in Ekathimerini a journalist got brave and said all journalists need to come out from their corners and challenge the government. Then readers posted messages asking why Ekathimerini doesn’t do it, why Ekathimerini doesn’t lead a campaign to lift the legal ‘immunity from prosecution’ from all Greek MPs. Result? Whole page deleted by Ekathimerini! Kostas Vaxevanis seems the only journalist with the guts.
Ah yes, Blasphemy. A law that, despite claiming to support freedom of speech, right wing Christians support, to deny interpretations of gospel or artistic endeavour that they disagree with.
Yes, and in Greece, just in case you don’t know, it remains an offence to proselytise. It’s actually built into the Greek constitution. The Greek Orthodox Church has got the Greek state by the neck.
Just like in Russia with the Russian Orthodox Church.
I have spent lots of time in Greece and feel terrible about what they are going through. Their present situation makes it sadly inevitable that right wing groups will thrive. Greece is the most homoerotic place I have ever been, though the ubiquitous gay behaviour that seemingly most men indulge in at some point is rarely mentioned. Who could have imagined this would be happening there?
So the Golden Dawn folks claim to be Greek nationalists do they? Claim to be standing up for the glory of Greek civilization and Greek values?
They could start by reading some Euripides – the original religiously-provocative playwright and one of the glories of Greece’s golden age in the fifth century BC.
It is an irony worthy of one of his plays that people claiming to stand for Greek values are trying to oppose morally challenging drama in the very city where it was born.
And while they’re at it they might like to see what Sophocles had to say on corrupt authoritarian rule too…
Greek economy is sinking indeed, but fundamental rights are as critical as bread. I am a 41 y.o. doctor, gay and I now have to think if I will have to seek asylum in 2013. I have benn joining the Athens Pride march the last 4-5 years. Most people I know say I am crazy. My friend too. As far as legal recognition of same sex relationships, I think that for the time being a registered partnership is what society would stand and gay people themselves would find preferable.
The Golden Dawn exists for more than 30 years as a aggressive far-right group with strong connections, though, in Army, Police etc. Otherwise, they would have been banned, with the things they have done. In 2009 elections they took 0.2%. In June 2012 7% and present polls show 13%. Syriza, that I vote since the 90s mainly because it is the only party that has a clear pro-gay agenda, always took 4-5% in May 2012 16% and in June 27%. The are now first in polls, with about 25% (many people cannot say what they would vote …
… right now). I was crazy enough to go at the theatre on the 11th OCT and there was a scenery of war, with hundrends of police men stopping about 200 GD-followers, and crazy taliban-christians to come close. Those who wanted to see the performance where shouted at and even beaten. But the performance was abondoned due to straight threats for the lives of the actors by GD.
I wish that liberal people in Europe trigger the interest of their MPs and Europarl MPs. I would invite you to join some Greek sites, eg lifo.gr is great, with lots of followers and gay-friendly. This would be a real revolution in Greek Internet, where trash prevails. Remember, most Greeks understand English and quite a lot French or German.
Dimitri, those of us of Greek ancestry who live in the diaspora, have known for some time how homophobic Greek society, its institutions and culture are. There have been other bleak periods in Greek history (the colonels’ rule of the early 1970s, for example). Golden Dawn is simply the latest variation. Not many know of the marriage between the Greek Orthodox Church and the government, characterized by the fact that Greek priests are paid employees of the government. Or of the closed nature of Greek society, where children are often expected to live with their parents until marriage. Don’t despair!
Joseph and Dimitri, so good to hear you talking honestly about the situation in Greece on these pages. I know Greece intimately and I know that what you both say is spot-on.
Dimitri, re. emigrating. I fear that those who can see what needs to change in Greece are leaving Greece. Who then will be left to change the system? Only the corrupt will stay. What’s needed in Greece is for individuals of integrity to step forward and take control, refusing to have anything to do with meson and rousfeti.
That is true. Qualified people want to leave. Maybe I should have tried this after I graduated the School of Medicine. I wouldn’t think I could be forced in some way to leave one day. Anyway, I’ ve not packed yet, but must think about it seriously.
Joseph if you speek Greek, but even if not, you could join some greek sites. Greece was always as a cyst in the EU. You may try lifo.gr (gay-friendly and very nice) tvxs.gr (rather leftist, very rich content) protagon.gr (political centre). This would be a revolution to Greek internet. Almost all Greeks understand English and Greeks in general are concerned about what other people think of them, but 99% of what is said abroad is not transmitted inside.
In Greece, after the civil war Right was pro-western, but non-democratic. Left, mainly after dictatorship, especially SYRIZA and Democratic Left (which used to be in one party untill 2009) was interested in human rights and gay rights.
In that link you may find strong data that show tha GD didnot rise fron society spontaneously, it was harboured by governments and justice. In 2009 UN committee CERD was odfficially informed by Greek authorities that there is no organized neo naxi group in Greece.
Greek ambassador in UN informes UN that there are no discriminations against gay people in Greece!!!
Lies, lies, lies! Greek statistics is not just in economy. Read them, if you have a handy transation
The far right is growing everywhere. Not just in Greece.
The austerity measures and the financial crisis is affecting everyone.
There is a lot of anger out there. And these countries that are suffering the most look for targets to take their anger out on.
We are the most visible and the most loathed.
The Great Depression helped to feed the second World war. Who is to say this financial crisis is not going to do the same.
It is going to take years to resolve this crisis and in the mean time people are going to find ways to alleviate their anger, any way possible.
We must all be vigilant and not complacent. We must not give society any ammunition for them to feed on if society decides to turn violent and destructive.
You have been warned.
Very true words, Radical53.
As the Eurozone countries sink further into the mire, extemist parties such as the Golden Dawn will become more popular. Europe is yet again at a crossroads. Perhaps it is time to call time on the experiment that is called the Euro and let the countries revert back to their original currencies or the whole thing will unravel dangerously. History has a knack of repeating itself.
Would leftists stand up and support the degrading of Judaism in the same manner they support the degradation of Christianity?
If the theater play showed Muhammed as being gay, to provoke muslims, would leftists support it? I can assure you the anti-white anti-christian multiculti cadrè would not. In fact if there was a play about degrading Islam or Judaism, “anti-fascist”(The actual fascists) would probably be attacking the theatre goers with knives and sticks. And multicultural media would describe it as : “Anti-fascist attack islamophobes”
You fail to understand that there is support in the gospels for the notion that Jesus was gay or bisexual by nature, particularly in the gospel of St. John. There have historically been sects that believed this.
Also historically, muslim countries were much more accepting of homosexuality than Christian countries. Intolerance appears to have come with the rise of more fundamentalist clergy to political power. Something we should resist with the rise of Christian fundamentalism in places like Greece, Russia and America.
Fascists always take advantage of situations like those in Greece at the moment.
Parties that do not agree with democracy and the rule of law should automatically be barred from the process they seek to destroy.
If Golden Yawn is such a fascist party then it should be banned as soon as possible.