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Former SNP leader says equal marriage is a step towards ‘fascism’

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  1. Peter Robertson 15 Oct 2012, 11:03am

    “If you think we are sliding down a road to state fascism and intolerance…”

    Exactly the opposite, in fact. What is happening is that the intolerance of the past (and that of a few people who wish to live in the past) is being swept away. The “corporate fascism” of organised religions exemplified by the Roman Catholic church is being shown up for what it is and appropriately derided and rejected.

    1. his bible is spelled MEIN KAMPF

      In germany they learned their lesson well. the B!TCh would be tossed in the jail.

  2. Just like equal voting rights for women was a step towards fascism I suppose. (lol)

  3. Jesus Mohammed 15 Oct 2012, 11:05am

    Marriage Equality is really causing unease amongst homophobes. The homophobes feel so strongly about this issue that they are “coming out” about it. Our community is currently planning the annual Christmas Dinner and I expect there’s going to be a tension in the air this year. There’ll be just two gay couples present amongst a bunch of older married couples most of whom are churchgoers. They’ve always been very pleasant to us in the past, but now I suspect they see us as being amongst those who are “wrongfully” requesting that we too be allowed to marry.

    All of which is proof that Marriage Equality has to happen . . . just so that the “dinosaurs” get used to it!

    1. Jesus- See my reply below. The present ‘ditherin’ is resulting in out and out homophobia especially to people like you in your community. How long before bricks thro the windows , name calling etc etc?

  4. I can’t believe that there is anything left in the bottom of the barrels for them to scrape and then we have this idiot.

    The sooner the Scottish and also Central Government get on with changing the law then those people who are against it will see that there was nothing to fear, the world will not end, mountains will not fall into the seas. Most importantly, we can then get on with other important matters

  5. A very objective report on the UK’s Marriage Equality plans on “France24” TV a couple of nights ago was worrying.

    The programme showed how ordinary “rank and file” members of the Conservative Party are making it clear to their MPs that if MPs vote FOR “Gay Marriage” then the “rank and file” will not be voting for the MPs at the next general election.

    “France24” interviewed one Conservative MP, for Enfield I think, who said that in conscience he would vote for “Gay Marriage” but because of the many warnings he had received from his constituents he would not be inclined vote for “Gay Marriage” in practice!

    The Conservative “rank and file” consist, of course, of all those older dull-looking middle-aged heterosexual British couples, dressed almost always in clothes from Marks and Spencers.

    1. So who are they going to vote for? UKIP? Do that on mass and we get a Labour government and marriage equality – that the way first past the post works. Would they be that stupid? One can hope.

      1. And we get to stay in the EU, thank goodness

        1. Spanner1960 16 Oct 2012, 1:30am

          Don’t be so ridiculously naive.
          The longer we stayed conjoined with that dying relic, the more chance we have of going down with them.

  6. On a similar theme:
    “We don’t want bullying of homosexuals to stop, say Christians”

    1. Unbelievable! I’m sick of them going on about how we’re ‘promoting the homosexual lifestyle’. It’s just an excuse for hate and to try to push us down into second-class citizenship.

      I’m also heartily sick of their claims that they’re being discriminated against because they’re being criticised for picking on LGBT people. Yet again ‘christianity’ is being used as an excuse for hate and bigotry. Vile, vile people.

      1. Jesus Mohammed 15 Oct 2012, 2:00pm

        Yes, and do you remember when Labour granted us CPs? We were all inclined to believe that we had made it through the final barrier, that from then on homophobia would die.

        We were wrong. It hasn’t.

        And, possibly, even if we do get Marriage Equality, that still won’t be the end of the quiet unseen detestation of “queers”.

        1. That There Other David 15 Oct 2012, 2:38pm

          Changing society overnight is like attempting to handbrake turn a cruise ship, but the demographics are on our side here. Dinosaurs like Gordon Wilson will slowly disappear and younger generations have reached a point where they don’t see what all the fuss is about.

          There will always be some that cannot accept us, but their numbers are shrinking. Long may it continue.

        2. Yes, I do remember the CP debate. I remember the name as being put forward to placate religions – fat waste of time that was. They just can’t help themselves, can they? They pretended that they cared about the name but in reality all they really care about is making sure we ‘know our place’.

      2. That reminds me of that recent quote by Hugo Rifkind: ” They’re speaking a different language from the people they want to convince, and wondering why it isn’t working. They are guests in a world they used to own, wondering who changed the curtains.”

        I thought that was fantastically well put. He was commenting about Carey and Widdecombe’s squawks of protest.

        Last three paragraphs:

        Rifkind’s conclusion that equal marriage would happen was rather heartening too.

    2. Those ‘loving’ Christians strike again …. !

  7. Really? I thought that fascism already existed; look at the amount of religious nuts squabbling over each others rights and ways of life. Each seeks to put down the other because they see that their own ‘god’ is superior to any other. Bollax!

    So do we go back and revoke the rights of women? Do we say that the suffragette movement did not happen? Do we say that Emily Davison didn’t throw herself in front of the horse at Epsom? Do we now say that self-immolation doesn’t happen?

    Clearly your glasses are fogged up, as you seem to see the world in a completely different way that we see it.

  8. Bring equal marriage in NOW-otherwise this kind of christofascist homophobia will carry on unabated. They can see they have lost the debate-and are now resorting to homophobic attacks on us-and it will only get WORSE while the dithering goes on. Bring it in quickly now-or drop it-before intoleance breeds violence-and somebody gets attacked or worse.

  9. Sister Mary Clarence 15 Oct 2012, 12:26pm

    Clearly the bigots are worried that they are heading fro defeat, which I think we can take some comfort from. They are certainly not sitting pretty thinking proposals are going to get voted down.

    In relation to the ‘former SNP leader’, and I think the key word is ‘former’. The SNP, and society in general, have clearly moved on since he held any sway over the party.

    1. Actually the SNP don’t have a great record on gay equality or tackling homophobia within the party. Their biggest financial donor is currently Brian Souter, an extreme homophobe.

      They have made a good move in announcing they are going to legislate for marriage equality, but even here they have problems with homophobia as the minister who should be responsible for it, Roseanna Cunningham, has refused to have anything to do with it from the outset, so the Health ministers have been fronting it instead while Cunningham’s department staff and resources are still being used to actually do it.

      1. And while the previous Health minister, Nicola Sturgeon was committed to pushing through marriage equality, the new Health minister, Alex Neil was rumoured to have threatened to resign from his previous cabinet job a couple of months ago if the SNP went ahead with EM – and he’s got very conservative views on abortion too. These things make me wonder if he’s fully committed to EM now he’s the one in charge of it.

  10. Yes indeed sir, we fascists are well know for fighting for equality and individual freedom. Don’t forget to polish your jack boots folks.

    1. I get someone to do that for me at the Block :-)

  11. More proof that they can’t think of a single sensible reason to oppose equal marriage, so they resort to scare-monegring and outright lies. Compare that to the sensible, factual statement from Tom French:

    “the fascist regimes of the 20th century persecuted, tortured and murdered LGBT people. In contrast, the Scottish Government are promoting equality and religious freedom for all”

    1. Interestingly, presumably what he means by “Facism,” is the murder of a right to intolerance with regards marriage.

  12. I just hope this former leader of the SNP doesn’t have enough influence left in the party to convince SNP MSPs that they shouldn’t vote for marriage equality.

    My local SNP constituency MSP told me before the SNP launched it’s consultation that she would vote for equal marriage but then after the consultation told me she was undecided due to various issues raised, and she remains undecided today.

    I’m also a little concerned by the SNPs close links to Souter, whose views on gay people are very well known. What would the SNP do if he launcehd another crusade like his Clause 2a (Sect. 28) campaign?

    The SNP took a massive and fantastic step for gay equality when they announced plans to legislate for equal marriage. I’d hate to see it all come to nothing by scaremongering bigots like Wilson and Souter.

  13. Bennie- sadly-I have to agree with you. Furthermore I don’t think the Westminster parliament will bring it in either. I just think they realise theres no votes in it-and also there are other more urgent priorities for them. I think we will have to wait until the Labour party returns to government-probably 2020.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Oct 2012, 1:38pm

      John, even if a Labour government were returned to office, we’d still need some Tory votes to make it happen. We don’t have the luxury of Francois Hollande’s government across the channel where the socialists have sufficient votes pass to push it through on their own.

      Labour and Liberal Democrats will have a whipped vote in Westminster while the Tories a free vote. Passage is dependent on sufficient Tory votes to make it pass. So we need 326 to make that a reality. Current count is I believe 311 between Labour and Liberal Democrats. I suspect there are at least 15 Tories on board or more hopefully to see it safely through, ideally with a large majority.

      1. Although a majority of MSPs have pledged support, it’s no guarantee they will vote for it in the end.

        The SNP, Lib Dems & Greens in Scotland are giving their MSPs a free vote (I’m still waiting to hear back from Labour & the Tories) so it’s possible that enough MSPs could change their minds and not vote for it – if they get scared enough of losing their seat, for example.

        1. Bobbleobble 15 Oct 2012, 4:31pm

          Although this is true I don’t think Salmond would bring forward legislation if he couldn’t get it through the Parliament. He’s not stupid and he would look ridiculous if this policy fails after the fuss there’s been about it.

          But I think it’s good to be cautious and not celebrate before the job is done.

          1. I think you’re right, but he is giving his MSPs a free vote, so they won’t have to vote for it. My main worry is if just enough MSPs decided not to vote for it in the end or even the SNP dropping or postponing it at some point. I’d be surprised if Souter doesn’t make waves and it’ll be important how Salmond reacts to that. He’s stood up to the churches (to an extent) but would he stand up to his largest donor if necessary?

          2. Of course, since the SNP government have a majority in the Scottish Parliament, Salmond could guarantee that marriage equality becomes a reality in Scotland, if he really wanted to.

          3. Bobbleobble 15 Oct 2012, 5:13pm

            I think if they were going to postpone then they would have done it before now. They’ve had plenty of opportunity, for example they could simply have said that there were more negative responses to the consultation than positive therefore sorry but not happening. And I don’t for one minute think that Souter hasn’t already been making waves but they’ve stood strong so far, I really can’t see that changing at this late stage. It’s gone too far and had too much money spent on it for them to give up now. At least I hope so!

          4. I really hope you’re right, but it’s certainly not too late for the Scot Gov to postpone or drop it. Their insistence on an unneccessary amendment to UK equality laws could be a way out down the line and they can blame Westminster at the same time.

            Souter hasn’t really opposed it so far except to give his views at the end of last year. My point is thst he’s not opposed it so far on the same scale as his Clause 2a campaign, and he still could.

          5. Equality Network 15 Oct 2012, 6:13pm

            For clarity, so far the Scottish Govt have indicated only one Equality Act amendment they think is needed. It is a small amendment to clarify the law and the case the Scottish Govt have made for it is persuasive. The indications are that the UK Govt will cooperate on it.

            It remains to be seen whether the Scottish Govt propose any other amendment to the Equality Act – we’ll find out when they publish the draft bill on a few weeks. The Equality Network would certainly oppose any amendment that reduces the protections for LGBT people.

          6. As I understand it, the amendment the SG want is to ensure extra protections for religions. I can understand the need to get everything just right, but it is putting religion over gay equality, and it’s not as if an amendment is a legal requirement for going ahead with EM. Hopefully I’m worrying about nothing, but I can’t help but think it may be cause for concern.

  14. So when the democratic process delivers a result you don’t like, you cry ”Fascism!’.

    …as opposed to a Fascist, who would do away with such democratic processes to achieve his own ends.

    Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black to me, or proof again of Godwin’s Law.

  15. Craig Nelson 15 Oct 2012, 1:33pm

    This is very disturbing.It is evidence that the longer the delay in introducing (and passing) legislation will lead to ever increasing hysteria and homophobic attacks. The longer this thing ferments the more likely either or both of the governments will have to pull back, even if they currently don’t intend to.

    The only way to manage this correctly is for both governments to publish a bill and a timetable which will also assuage some of the hysteria.

  16. Jesus Mohammed 15 Oct 2012, 2:03pm

    Both the LibDems and the Tories place greater importance on votes for THEM at the next election than on voting for Marriage Equality for us NOW.

    1. politics, cynical? gee (or rather jees), were you born yesterday?

  17. Obviously this man doesn’t understand his ideologies very well: ‘Fascism’ is born out of intensive socialist & nationalist governments/states. Gay marriage is a liberalised policy born out of a slow-rolling global movement toward libertarianism (the reduction of governments/states role in society). If anything he’s the fascist, even if only by default.

  18. Folks like him !!! give the SNP a bad name!

    1. Unfortunately he’s far from the only one in the SNP who is against equal marriage and gay equality in general. And I’m not just talking about a few backbenchers, I’m talking about senior politicians in the party. At least 5 ministers in the Scottish Government have spoken out or voted against gay equality in the past. You’ve got to ask why they were given their jobs in the first place, there’s no place for homophobia in a modern, democratic political party.

      1. I dont care if a few minor league backbenchers and junior ministers complain. It annoys me how people aren’t being critical of the Torys. Most of there party in Edinburgh is against equal marriage. If you look at the opposers of Equal Marriage in the SNP most of them are over 60. The bill will pass and there’s nothing they can do about it, the leadership has decided and most of the MSP’s in the party are for equal marriage. Including Fergus Ewing’s sister Annabelle, and Former leader John Swinney, Nicola Sturgeon, Salmond, and many more. if the opposers are so unhappy then they should do the decent thing and resign from cabinet.

        1. I do care if more than a few backbenchers and government ministers are against equal marriage and gay equality in general. It shows what the SNP as a party think of homophobia when homophobes are given cabinet positions. It’s not as though these people are being ignored by Salmond, he panders to Roseanna Cunningham’s bigotry by letting her refuse to do her ministerial duties. Why hasn’t he sacked her and thrown her out of the party? Wasn’t her “goes against 1000 years of nature’s design” speech more than enough? Obviously not because Salmond made her a minister AFTER she said that!

          1. And I think people aren’t being critical of thd Tories because they expect them to be homophobic.

          2. Sorry for coming accross bossy again by the way :(.

            Well i really hope That Nicola Sturgeon becomes leader she is a far more effective debator, level headed and progressive.

            Im sure she’d clean the cabinet out. !!!

            But the SNP arnt homophobic if a bunch of fools want to complain they can, but Salmond is acting weak he should take out the trash. Cunningham cant use the “oh but i have been loyal to the party for so many years” excuse. She should be sacked!!

            When Scotland for Marriage protested outside a cabinet meeting, what did Salmond go out the back door run off to his limo and get out of there.

            What did Nicola do? she confronted them, she showed guts and stood for her convictions, i have seen far more leadership qualities from Nicola then i have from Alex Salmond.

            I like both of them but i dont think Salmond is the person to bring the party to its maximum potential.

          3. You could be right about Nicola Sturgeon, I guess we’ll find out if and when she become leader. In saying that, there’s nothing stopping her from speaking out right now about the things I’ve mentioned such as Souter funding the SNP. She’s been awfully quiet on that. And she could refuse to be a part of a cabinet with the likes of Cunningham, yet she’s happy to sit at the cabinet table with her. If Sturgeon was really serious about not tolerating homophobia, would she be doing all of that? Also, a friend of mine swears she was interviewed on the news at the time of Clause 2a saying Souter’s referendum had to be listened to by the Lab/Lib government, although I didn’t see that myself.

          4. Don’t get me wrong, it’s brilliant that the SNP government are going ahead with marriage equality and they do deserve recognition for taking such a big step for gay equality. It doesn’t negate all the homophobia that the SNP needs to sort out, though.

          5. Also, I don’t think homophobia in the SNP is confined to older members. Alisdair Allan (Minister for Learning & Science) is 41 and has said he won’t be voting for equal marriage, while Michael Matheson (Minister for Public Health) is 42 and he voted for Roseanna Cunningham’s amendment to make it illegal for gay people to adopt. Both young and members of the Scottish Government, not ageing backbenchers.

  19. I just wish fools like him would leave and complain some place else!

  20. Garry Cassell 15 Oct 2012, 4:39pm

    That former(twit)leader should marry Lord Carey considering they have so much in common…

  21. Yesterday’s thinking from a yesterday man!!!!! The Party didn’t do much under his leadership as far as I can remember!!!

  22. Another quote:

    It is the empty vessel that has the loudest echo.

    In my way of thinking it would be the vessels that screeches the loudest. If that’s the arguments those has-beens have got left, they’re showing very clearly that they’ve lost. It’s called jumping the shark in television speak isn’t it? Once your story goes this ridiculous, you just know that it’s over. There’s nowhere else they’ve got to go to.

    If the government were to not proceed with EM, they would very badly lose face. The biggest fact to consider is that the vast majority of people (who aren’t bothered about EM coming in) are silent. They’re not shouting against EM but not for it either. In fact, a heck of a lot of people think that EM is already legal. It’s that much of an issue.

    There is a very tiny minorty of anti-gay dinosaurs who don’t get it – unfortunately they’re the ones that scream the loudest. If any policitian listens to them then they are hurting their own career. …

    1. The arc of history may be long, but it bends towards justice. And that last little bit is the bit that goes incredibly fast and does quite a turn – no wonder the poor bigots are getting whiplash!

      Marriage Equality is going to happen, the scare-mongers have lost. Good!

  23. johnny33308 15 Oct 2012, 4:59pm

    More freedom is the opposite of fascism, which is less freedom. WTF is wrong with these people who see the opposite of the truth when they look at it?

  24. Of more note than his one time “do-nothing” leadership of the SNP is his current chairmanship of an evangelical lobbying group in Scotland knowan as SOLAS . Their website looks pretty professional – you can even donate by paypal! I wonder who helped them set it up/ fund etc, could it be our interfering evangelical friiends across the pond -no strangers to getting involved in another country’s politics when “jeebus ” is invoked . Or could it be the evangelical owners of a certain transport company not 30 miles away in Perth?. Also this little charmer was kicked off the Dundee Citizens Advice Bureau board for his homophobic drivel last year. Not missed , and certainly not wanted .

  25. Cardinal Capone 15 Oct 2012, 5:44pm

    Common components of fascism are nationalism and religion, but never ever do they include tolerance of gays or same sex marriage. This man is projecting his own intolerance.

    1. and advertising his own ignorance and lack of intelligence.

  26. I just don’t get what gay marriage has to do with non gay people. For example They’re not asked to marry someone of the same sex, they’re not expected to watch the wedding night. All the is asked of them is to celebrate two people taking a big step on life’s journey. Don’t get me wrong I don’t expect them to tie themselves to Buckingham Palace demanding it be allowed, but at the same time I don’t expect them to spout idiotic garbage either.

    1. Spanner1960 15 Oct 2012, 6:55pm

      I think in a nutshell, they see marriage as “their own little club”, and they kind of tolerate civil weddings just to keep the law at bay, but those people are not “properly” married. Their complaint is that somehow gays will taint and poison their standing as married. It’s a bit like a private members club being told it has to allow the great unwashed public access to their bar.

  27. Spanner1960 15 Oct 2012, 6:51pm

    “If they ignore public opinion, a P45 may await. Do not scorn the electorate”.

    I would listen to your own words there, Mr Wilson. The general public consensus is pro same-sex marriage, not anti it, you are actually starting to believe your own propaganda.

    1. Cardinal Capone 16 Oct 2012, 12:13am

      They certainly scorned him when he lost his parliamentary seat, and he also probably doesn’t like the present leader of the SNP much, seeing as he was ousted by him 22 years ago.

  28. Portland OR 15 Oct 2012, 6:57pm

    Interesting! By definition, “Fascism” is right wing only, the opposite is “Bolshevism”, which is left wing only. Both far out wings used “Socialism” to their advantage, but both got it wrong and opprressed ideas + people they didn’t like. The most important books in a home or office is / should be a good dictionary, a history book and Logic 101; it would save so much time and hot air.

    1. Spanner1960 16 Oct 2012, 1:26am

      “Fascism” is right wing only.
      Sorry, but wrong.

      Many people have attempted to define fascism, and there are numerous views, but the common general consensus is that it is principally a nationalistic and isolationist ideology.

      Fascism was founded during World War I by Italian national syndicalists who combined left-wing and right-wing political views. Fascists have commonly opposed having a firm association with any section of the left-right spectrum, considering it inadequate to describe their beliefs, though fascism’s goal to promote the rule of people deemed innately superior while seeking to purge society of people deemed innately inferior is identified as a prominent far-right theme. Fascism opposes multiple ideologies: conservatism, liberalism, and two major forms of socialism – communism and social democracy.

  29. I do not think that word means what he thinks it means.

  30. d’oh you cretin equal marriage leads to equality not to facism

  31. GingerlyColors 16 Oct 2012, 7:13am

    He sounds just like Lord Carey. Maybe he should do a bit of research into how gay friendly fascism was.

  32. Latest figures reveal cival partnerships last FAR longer than marriages. So I think heterosexuals have done a pretty good job of undermining marriage.

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