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Bishop of Buckingham: ‘Church should get its head around gay relationships and be @Out4Marriage’

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  1. Absolutely fantastic. I’m glad I’m an Anglican!

    1. Why are you glad you believe superstitious nonsense?

      1. Because God loves the Irish!

        1. Paddyswurds 23 Aug 2012, 7:13pm

          Is that the same thing as the way “gods” clerics “loved” the Irish for hundreds of years by raping and torturing Irelands children?? Just wondering, like!

          1. Paddyswurds 24 Aug 2012, 11:58am

            @John, …
            …in either case there is NO rational explanation…

        2. Don Harrison 23 Aug 2012, 11:06pm

          God loves.

          1. For those who believe in God….no explanation is necessary….for those who do not believe in God no explanation will Surfice….

    2. Paul from Brighton 23 Aug 2012, 8:57pm

      Why are you glad you’re an Anglican? Didn’t you read the article and the reply from the Anglican Church – (I’ll copy it below as you’ve obviously missed it)

      “A Church of England spokesman contradicted the bishop’s message. “Our Church is committed to marriage as being between a man and woman,” he said.”

      By all means be glad that this Bishop has taken the stance he has, but this doesn’t mean you belong to an Church that’s committed to abandoning it’s policy of sexual apartheid.

      Incidentally, I admire this man’s courage in speaking out.

      1. Rowan Williams arse has an Evangelical boot-print on it, and they probably have his gonads wired up to a 24v car battery. In 1989, before all of this, he said;

        “in a church which accepts the legitimacy of contraception, the absolute condemnation of same-sex relations of intimacy must rely either on an abstract fundamentalist deployment of a number of very ambiguous texts, or on a problematic and non-scriptural theory about natural complementarity, applied narrowly and crudely to physical differentiation without regard to psychological structures.”

        http://www.igreens.org.uk/bodys_grace.htm

        Even he saw the fallacy of using scripture against same-sex relations. I could go on for days about all the errors and things which make no sense in the Bible, and how the language was twisted and distorted, referencing dozens of top-notch Biblical scholars — but the simple point is, that it confirms that many Evangelicals already know that he said is true.

      2. Paddyswurds 24 Aug 2012, 12:03pm

        What can be expected from a church that was invented to thwart marriage laws and the laws of the realm as in the case of Henry Tudor who loved marriage soooo much he done it six times and murdered 5 of his wives so he could do so in that cobbled together church………

    3. Don Harrison 23 Aug 2012, 10:03pm

      Too true Paul, as a gay Anglican myself I have been campaigning for equal marriage since it was first introduced in 2010. I hope that other Bishops, priests together Ministers from different churches move forward the progress of “Out for Marriage,
      Don

    4. I read in one survey that about 45% of gay people follow a faith, although the 2009 survey of sexuality (Equality & Human Rights Commission) makes it very clear that in the 16-25 group it’s just 20% – probably in line with other young people. And 61% of Christians in the UK support equal rights.

      We must always separate out that small group of radicalised religious fundamentalists and evangelicals whose obsession with prurient interests and absurd beliefs in an inerrant Bible, with a desire for Dominionism, is the result of …. too much religion. Joan Collins said you can never have too much of a good thing, but I’ve seen that disproved time and again. I think too much religion can turn you mad.

      But we should remember that some of the people we come across in the gay community may have religious beliefs and we shouldn’t make them feel unwelcome – they’re part of the whole as much as any one of us. Not everybody is a leftist liberal atheist secular humanist ! (<– I am tho)

  2. Bloody little legend!

  3. Robert in S. Kensington 23 Aug 2012, 1:32pm

    Fabulous and thank you Bishop. Duncan Boyd of course doesn’t call hetero serial adultery and divorce disgraceful nor does the hierarchy publicly condemn it, the real threat to marriage as we know it. Utter hypocrisy.

    1. Paul from Brighton 23 Aug 2012, 10:01pm

      All very true, but don’t you think there’s also an element of hypocrisy in this bishop remaining in the paid employment of an employer with such views?

      A bit like a meat eater working in a vegetarian restaurant wishing for the day when the restaurant will include meat on their menu?

      1. It’s a broad church. They can’t force him out or do anything to him. He’s at the top position that he’s going to get now.

        In theory, they can force Bishops in the House of Lords to vote the way they want them to vote, although that doesn’t appear to have happened in the past (someone correct me if I’m wrong).

        He is a “Suffragan” bishop, not a “Lords Spiritual” so he’s not in the House of Lords.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Lords_Spiritual#Diocesan_bishops

      2. If everyone left when a bigot spouted anti-gay views in a church (or any other organisation for that matter), then the bigots would be unopposed and have a clear run. It would quickly become a vicious circle.

        If someone is happy with 95% of an organisation but considers 5% is wrong then they should work to change that 5%, not abandon the whole organisation to the extremists.

        Of course, if you’re opposed to most of your organisation’s views then you have to consider your position, but I imagine the Bishop is happy with most of his church’s belief’s but dislikes their homophobia.

        A better analogy would be of a foodie who wishes his restaurant would take Pâté de Foie Gras off the menu.

  4. This is great news. I’m not religious, but we have to work with what we’ve got. The Church exists, it has a voice: it has clout. It can be a force for good if it actively discourages homophobia in this way.

    His message should hopefully encourage others to come ‘Out4Marriage’ as well.

  5. “The Church of England took a leading role in decriminalisation homosexuality 50 year ago”

    I have trouble believing this.

    1. GulliverUK 23 Aug 2012, 5:36pm

      If only the Internet went back that far !

    2. Paul Brownsey 23 Aug 2012, 7:43pm

      There might be some books that give some information.

      My recollection – I was around at the time – is that prominent people in the CofE were for the decriminalisation of male homosexual acts, saying it should be a sin but not a crime. Of course, one might dispute that it is even a sin but in the 1960s that was a pretty radical position. I seem to recall that the then Archbishop of Canterbury,l Michael Ramsey, supported that line.

      1. “Sin” is a religious concept only, and as I don’t believe, I have never sinned. :D

        If it is to be used as proof of a benevolent Church of England, then we should know the facts. John Sentamu hasn’t written a hateful article for a while – perhaps because he claimed the Church of England was in favour of Civil Partnerships (!!!! Doh !!!!) and ripped apart by those that know.

        Any idiot with a computer can do that relatively easy. Just use Google, do you search for, say, church of england civil partnerships, and set a custom date (left hand side) to 2004-2006 to filter the results.

        1. Paul Brownsey 24 Aug 2012, 7:29pm

          I would never dream of using it as a proof of a benevolent Church of England. But if you had grown up in a time when you risked jail for having gay sex, you might have been quite pleased to find prominent people in the CofE taking that line.

          As for the line that it would still be a sin, though should not be a crime, it needs to be appreciated that it would have been difficult to speak persuasively in favour of decriminalisation in those days without saying some such thing. Moreover, public figures in those days, and perhaps private ones, would have found it less obvious than it is today that there is a difference between something’s being a sin and something’s being morally wrong.

    3. Paul Halsall 13 Sep 2012, 12:28pm

      It is true. The CoE supported the Wolfenden Report, which is what lead to the decriminalisation of homosexuality in England.

  6. Pavlos Prince of Greece 23 Aug 2012, 2:01pm

    I wish, he is candidate of liberal wing of Church of England by elections of new Archbishop of Canterbury. But anyway we will have winter of York.

  7. “Well, let me beggar your belief..” is a phrase I intend to steal for future use. :)

    Anyway, well said, sir!

  8. First The Bishop of Buckingham , we have also had Canon Kenny from Belfast.

    Support from unlikely places!

    It is good that the Bishop has spoken out in the way he has and I hope that it will encourage other within the CofE to speak out in favour. We know there are many there who are on our side.

  9. ‘his comments are not the view of the church’, well, it should be !

  10. Good for him – straight-talking about Christianity (so to speak :D) :

    “We don’t believe God is an angry old man out to get us – let’s stop behaving as though we did. Recognising gay people are equal means they won’t dilute or spoil marriage, but potentially enrich it.”

    That’s the truth – and how predictable and petty for the C of E to butt in and remind us of how much pride they take in their prejudice: “a spokesman for the Church says that his message of equality is not the official view of the Church of England.”

    No, of course not – god forbid that you could actually stop denigrating gay people and obsessing about their sex lives.

    1. Christians are just having to change their nonsensical beliefs since part of that nonsense has finally become abhorrent to most of society. This doesn’t fix the basic problem that what they believe is nonsense that’s not in any sense founded on reality.

      The only way to make Christianity remotely compatible with the present day world is to ignore nearly everything the Bible actually says. The Bible clearly, obviously, repeatedly says to kill gay people. That’s just what’s in it. You have to do some serious theological gymnastics to avoid what’s written in black and white.

      Religious people are a drag on humanity’s progress.

      1. “This doesn’t fix the basic problem that what they believe is nonsense that’s not in any sense founded on reality.”

        True, but as long as they’re doing no harm, I don’t mind so much.

        1. They are doing harm – they vote for politicians to enact laws based on nonsense, and they indoctrinate others. Our society is harmed when part of it refuses to live in reality.

          Like Stevie Wonder said, “If you believe in things that you don’t understand, then you’ll suffer.”

          1. Hmm, yes, I do see your point. But often people vote for politicians based on misconceptions or ignorance that ISN’T based on religion. One thing I would sort out though is the House of Lords, but that’s another matter :D

            Indoctrination – yes, I totally agree with you there. I think religious indoctrination can be harmful because it misinforms and sets up ways of thinking that are incorrect or based on fear. I also hate the way it’s used as a tool of power and repression. Alongside some religious practices, I found this man’s comments *fairly* harmless.

            As for Stevie Wonder…. well, you know more than me clearly :D

  11. Very excellent. Thank you very much Bishop Duncan I pray that more and more people within the Church of England follow your thinking and have a change of heart and mind. Happiness is….. :-)

  12. Correction ..not Bishop Duncan… Bishop of Buckingham ..sorry

  13. Congratulations, Bishop.

    Please continue to beggar beliefs of Mr Angry and their bigoted ilk.

    And drag some of your colleagues into the light as well.

    Then maybe disillusioned Anglicans like me won’t feel the need to leave their much-loved church.

  14. The Bishop of Buckingham? That’ll give the limerick writers a field day…

    1. Brilliant! LOL

  15. Guglielmo Marinaro 23 Aug 2012, 4:59pm

    “Scripture, the Church of England’s doctrinal foundation, makes clear that homosexual desire and practice are sinful.”

    Yes, of course it does, just as it makes clear that accepting interest on a loan is sinful. I hope that Mr Duncan Boyd isn’t paying into a pension fund and hasn’t got a savings account of any kind. Come on, Duncan old chap, the world has moved on since people were stoned to death for gathering firewood on the Sabbath.

    1. Don Harrison 23 Aug 2012, 10:18pm

      Wow, Guglielmo you must be reading a different book from me. Unfortunately some of the modern translations are different to the language of orginal scripture.

      1. Paddyswurds 24 Aug 2012, 2:49pm

        Translations of nonsense is still nonsense, no matter how you tinker with it……

    2. Scripture in fact doesn’t make clear that homosexual desire and practice are sinful. Context, literary and historical, needs to be taken into account.

  16. GulliverUK 23 Aug 2012, 5:46pm

    He’s been in favour of it for a while.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ns3xOjQLOI&feature=player_embedded

    Starts about 28mins in.

  17. GulliverUK 23 Aug 2012, 5:48pm

    - The new dean of St Paul’s Cathedral has called on the Church of England to embrace gay marriage. Very Rev Dr David Ison
    - 120 Anglican clergy have asked to be able to decide whether to officiate in Civil Partnerships
    - The Vicar of St Lawrence’s, Eastcote, Pinner, the Revd Stephen Dando, said that same-sex marriage should be “both allowed and celebrated”. “The Church should be in the forefront of showing love to all,”
    - “A change in the definition of marriage to include two men or two women would seem to me to be an appropriate step in the redefinition of marriage for our particular contemporary society,” said the Lead Chaplain of the Royal Brompton and Harefield NHS Foundation Trust, the Revd Robert Thompson.
    - The Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Unitarians and Liberal Jews, Reform Jew and Metropolitan Community Church support it.

    1. GulliverUK 23 Aug 2012, 5:49pm

      - The Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement, the thinktank Ekklesia and the Catholic group Quest support equal marriage, along with Thinking Anglicans.
      - Liberal wings of Buddhists and the Pagan Federation support it.
      - The policymaking body of the American Psychological Association (APA) unanimously approved the resolution 157-0. The group has more than 154,000 members.
      - The Conservative branch of American Judaism, Committee on Jewish Law and Standards, approved same-sex marriage ceremonies.
      - 61% supported it amongst Christians (recent poll, pinknews, IPsosMORI Dawkins)
      - Head of the Episcopal Church in Scotland the Most Rev David Chillingworth has given his support to the consultation on marriage equality.
      - Dr Barry Morgan, The Archbishop of Wales
      - Open Episcopal Church
      - The Bishop of Bucks

      1. “Liberal wings of Buddhists”? What is that?

        I don’t know of ANY Buddhist temples who are against marriage equality. Buddhism has NO negative teachings against homosexuality. I’ve also NEVER heard of “liberal Buddhism” and “conservative Buddhism”. There just isn’t any such thing. Please try not to impose western and Christian cultural, religious and political concepts onto Buddhism.

        1. I think that’s rather unfair, Hayden – how many Buddhist temples perform or bless same-sex marriages?

          I think you will find in countries like Sri Lanka – the world’s oldest continuously Buddhist society – the Buddhist hierarchy has been far from supportive of equal rights (and not just in relation to sexuality either, but that’s another story).

        2. Sorry Hayden, I was just reporting it as I read it elsewhere (can’t remember where now), but would it help if I said “sensible Buddhists” :)

          I expect you’ve seen this video;
          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOPcbFhCEj0
          which I saw a while ago, in support of equal rights, and nothing wrong with being gay if you follow Buddhism.

          Also;
          Taiwan’s First Same-Sex Wedding Held At Buddhist Monastery
          http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/taiwan-same-sex-wedding-photos_n_1773086.html

  18. Paddyswurds 23 Aug 2012, 7:17pm

    Why is is important that someone who is a cleric of an entirely imaginary theology approves of us and whether or not we are entitled to the same rights as everyone else? These people are worthy of nothing more than being ignored.

    1. GulliverUK 23 Aug 2012, 7:42pm

      Allies? Supporters of equality?

      Lawrence O’Donnell – Majority Of U.S. Catholics Back Gay Rights In Survey
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGCZ6RfoN9Q
      56% of US Catholics think that gay relationships are just fine.(sexual relations between same-sex persons is NOT a sin)
      73% favour laws to protect LGBT in the workplace.
      63% favour allowing gays in the military
      60% in favour of gay adoptions.
      70% believe that messages from the pulpit contribute to higher rates of suicide in the gay community.

      UK study: 61% of Christians back equal rights for gay couples
      http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2012/02/14/uk-study-61-of-christians-back-equal-gay-rights/

      We’re ‘fighting’ a minority group within Christianity, even White Evangelicals have 19% who are in favour of equal marriage. Our opponents are well-funded, radicalised, driven, determined, hostile and lying and misrepresenting us presents no ethical problem for them.

      We need our allies, every one. I’m atheist btw.

    2. Come on, Paddy. Whether you believe in the stuff or not, religion is a major force against our human rights. Any dissenters from within the ranks weaken their position. Ignoring, while satisfying, will get us nowhere. Well done that Bish!

      1. Paddyswurds 24 Aug 2012, 2:42pm

        Unfortunately too much heed was paid to these nut jobs down the centuries and they were given way way too much power commensurate with their product, a fantasy frankly, built on the oral tradition of illiterate desert goatherds who imagined that the Sun buried itself in the sea at night and grew anew the next day. On cloudy days they imagined the Sun was angry with them and so they killed their children as sacrifice to the Sun in order to appease it.
        No-one can convince me that these people are who we should be emulating and allowing the power to influence our civil laws in the twenty first century and any-one who tries is badly in need of a wake up call… !

  19. Paul Brownsey 23 Aug 2012, 7:39pm

    Any chance of Pink news printing this guy’s name? Bishops do have names, you know.

  20. billywingartenson 24 Aug 2012, 12:26am

    In the end we will end up with the nutter evangelicals – the slavers of America -a poisonous cancer spread far and wide

    And the church of Hitlr, Mengele, Goebbels, Eichmann and Himmler as the only opponents to equal marriage rights.

    Maybe its time for us to have a new holy inquistion

    There are about 4500 bishops and hence prob only about 5000 or so hierarchy who stand in the way of equality

    One big prison would hold them, till death do they depart thanks to the recycling bugs.

    1. GulliverUK 24 Aug 2012, 1:04am

      We should be concentrating on what Rowan Williams has said previously. I quoted him further up the thread, and I’ve just found another one;

      “…by the end of the 80′s I had definitely come to the conclusion that scripture was not dealing with the predicament of persons whom we should recognise as homosexual by nature. And many of the arguments assumed by theologians in the Middle Ages and later increasingly seemed to beg questions or to rest on contested grounds. I concluded that an active sexual relationship between two people of the same sex might therefore reflect the love of God in a way comparable to marriage, if and only if it had about it the same character of absolute covenanted faithfulness.”

      It doesn’t help they have him by the balls – I bet it’s compromising photos or something :D But he said that before he got involved in the politics of this. http://livingtext.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/rowan-williams-arch-heretic/

      1. In my opinion knowing this just makes me respect him even less. He doesn’t believe the homophobic crap he’s pushing but he does it for political reasons. I’d actually RATHER a person push crap because they actually BELIEVE it!

  21. GingerlyColors 24 Aug 2012, 7:36am

    This shows that the Anglican Church is split over the issue of marriage equality. Recently South Africa’s Archbishop, Desmond Tutu came out in support of gay marriage. Eventually the progressives will win out as they have done in the past with the introduction of women vicars which is generally a non-issue nowadays. The Church of England was founded almost 500 years ago when Henry XIII split with Rome over his rather dubious sex life.

  22. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE IN GOD NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY…..FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN GOD NO EXPLANATION WILL SURFICE….

    1. Paddyswurds 24 Aug 2012, 12:08pm

      @John…..
      .. … …. As I said above, in either case there simply is NO rational explanation, just gobbildy gook!

    2. Explanations of their own superstitious beliefs are of no interest to those determined to hold them even in the face of the incorrigible absence of evidence. People to whom evidence matters do not entertain superstitious belief. The latter have generally liberated humanity from all sorts of bondage. The former have generally put humanity in bondage and kept it there.

  23. I don’t think the CofE spokesperson really has the right to say what the official view of the CofE is when clearly there has been no democratic view or discussions ever taken place on the subject and when clearly there are many people within the CofE that think marriage between SS should be allowed.

    1. Yes, there can’t be a consensus on this with such polar opposites, but it’s the official view in terms of what they’ve written in their submission. But they’ve been heavily criticised from within because of exactly what you’ve said, … that there has been no internal debate on it.

      Don’t know about the CoE explicitly but 61% of Christians in the IPsosMORI Dawkins poll were in favour, and a new poll in Australia, just released, showed 53% support.

      http://www.australianmarriageequality.com/wp/a-majority-of-christians-support-marriage-equality/

      69% of Anglicans agree with women bishops
      http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2012/22-june/news/survey-backs-traditionalists
      and there is a survey on their opinion on same-sex marriage for the CHURCH TIMES, but I can’t access that as it’s pay-walled.

      Breakdown of religious views in the US here;
      http://www.pewforum.org/Gay-Marriage-and-Homosexuality/Religion-and-Attitudes-Toward-Same-Sex-Marriage.aspx

  24. NutjobsareeverywheretheUNtoo 24 Aug 2012, 11:24am

    Thankyou bishop it’s good to know Archie tu tu isn’t a team of one on this issue

    go team TuTu’!!

  25. Paddyswurds 24 Aug 2012, 12:16pm

    “the Church of England took a leading role in decriminalisation homosexuality 50 year ago”
    Can we lay any weight on a cleric who postulates downright lies. The Churches bitterly opposed decriminalisation of homosexuality just as they bitterly opposed Mixed race marriage, abolition of slavery and suffrage for women.. Religion has opposed ALL human rights proposed in the last 300 years..

    1. GulliverUK 24 Aug 2012, 1:24pm

      Not sure about this claim for the CoE – there may be some truth in it, or not. Most likely it’ll be what we have now, one wing of the church supporting it, one not. We do know that the Catholic church leadership has worked against our interests for hundreds of years. There isn’t a single doubt of that in the US, but across the world they stopped equal marriage and many rights in Venezuela, and lobbied the UN not to add ‘sexual orientation’ to a list of protections. They must spent hundreds of millions a year financing hate groups, NOM, AFA, FRC, etc., giving money to right-wing groups to oppose marriage rights, … all of our rights. Who finances the Christian Institute? They have been against ALL of our rights, equal age of consent, adoption, employment protections, goods and services protections.

  26. Paul Brownsey 24 Aug 2012, 7:27pm

    I would never dream of using it as a proof of a benevolent Church of England. But if you had grown up in a time when you risked jail for having gay sex, you might have been quite pleased to find prominent people in the CofE taking that line.

    As for the line that it would still be a sin, though should not be a crime, it needs to be appreciated that it would have been difficult to speak persuasively in favour of decriminalisation without saying some such thing. Moreover, public figures in those days, and perhaps private ones, would have found it less obvious than it is today that there is a difference between something’s being a sin and something’s being morally wrong.

  27. Duncan Boyd… ignorant of what the Bible actually teaches in this area. He comes across as bigoted, judgemental, self-righteous. I used to be like that but the Lord opened my eyes to His love, compassion and correct Biblical exegesis. Love your neighbour as yourself…

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