What a vile man this new Archbishop is, and clearly very stupid!
He is a typical representative of the catholic church.
He is a cnut!
I would call this horrid person a pig but I have too much respect for pigs to associate them with this disgusting scumbag.
And like it or not, if you identify as Catholic, or indeed Christian, you are either directly or indirectly supporting the institution that this man represents. It used to really piss me off when people said that to me but I finally realized it was true and rescinded the faith that I was born into and marinated in for almost 40 years.
I used to feel the same, Hayden, having been brought up catholic. I even tried to explain & defend it’s views when I was coming out in my early 20′s. But I realised I had to chose between being catholic & being gay as I couldn’t be both. It was no contest when I thought about it and I’m an athiest now.
Im a Spiritualist.
Mind you i completely agree with you on what you said about the Orthodox religions, i also have a big fear of those religions with some of the hateful things many of them and some of the members say.
“if you identify as Christian” has nothing to do with supporting or not this idiotic stance by the Catholic Church.
I identify as Christian.
And my faith denomination has ACTIVELY campaigned for equality for decades.
My denomination was involved in the battle to grant women the right to vote.
My denomination was involved in the battle to grant marriage equality.
Do NOT dare lump ALL Christians into the same disgusting puss-filled bag as those Roman Catholics.
Because the MINUTE you start doing that, you justify our (LGBT people) enemies doing the same to us… putting us all in the same bag as murderers, rapists, child molesters, etc…
Cruel and ill-thought out generalizations are not the answer.
Agreed, we should ‘lump’ all the same, yet no-where in this comment do you condemn the comments of this certain Arch-Bishop elect.
Surely your comment would prove better had you distanced yourself from this vile sect than condemn others who have suffered. You should have realised that such comments would rightfully cause such a backlash.
oops, soory did of course mean we ‘shouldn’t ‘lump…
I’d have thought describing the catholic pervert as a “disgusting puss-filled bag” summed up Mikey’s feelings on the matter, really. Dunno about you, but I don’t applaud or support anything said by somebody I would describe in such a manner.
Mikey raises a valid point – many Christian denominations fully support and have actively campaigned for Equal Human Rights. They pay no dues to the catholic perverts, they have no allegiance to other anti-equality churches. To lump those progressive, decent faiths in with those who oppose equality is no better than those who use stereotypes to vilify our community.
And no, I’m not a Christian (it’s far too full of holes and logical fallacies for my taste), but I won’t condemn one church just because it’s cousin church is a bigoted arse.
Alright, I’ll bite. PLEASE, name the “MANY” Christian denominations that “FULLY support and have actively campaigned for EQUAL human rights”.
I’ll be very interested to see how you define “many”, “fully” and “equal”!
But I’ll be happy to wait for your response.
I don’t know about the UK but here in the USA we have the MCC (a GAY denomination), the UCC and Quakers, although both of the latter are still having tremendous infighting among their members over gay rights and marriage equality. Many UCC and Quaker churches will not perform same-sex marriages and only about 20% of UCC’s (the most progressive Christian denomination in America) congregations are officially “Open and Affirming”, so not even the UCC meets the standards of your comment. So I wait with baited breath to hear you or Mikey enlighten us as to who all these fully supportive denominations are.
This is a (likely incomplete) list of individual gay-friendly/supportive/affiming churches in the UK. http://www.gaychurch.org/find_a_church/foriegn_nations/UK.htm
MCC, Quest, non-demoninational, Anglican (which just shows how deep the split goes – Anglican heads are against equality, but more and more individual churches are breaking with that)! Methodist, United Reform Church and more.
I know it’s convenient to view the world in a simplistic, childish black and white, us versus them, way. But that isn’t how the world works, kiddo. Religion and its relationship with sexuality is a complex issue and by seeking to boil it own “religion bad, gay pretty” you do everyone a disservice.
By all means, decry the anti-equality bastards (I certainly do), but do not let your zeal and passion overcome your senses. Clearly there are churches out there that have done a hell of a lot of good for the LGBT community and your attitude of hating all Christians could damage that in the future.
I need make no reply Mikey. Your screeching, screaming defense of our oppressors says it all!
Yeah, the only one’s being haters here are you two.
and if you don’t think that my referring to “lumping in the same disgusting puss-filled bag” as the Catholic church “not condemning them” then you’re considerably more of an idiot than you seem.
And Hayden, WHERE the fu** in my post did I “defend our oppressors”?
I said that not all christian denominations are like the RC church.
Some, like the one I belong to (a large denomination, by the way) has tirelessly worked for equality for years, including women’s right to vote, and LGBT right, including marriage equality.
I was married IN my church. By a minister of that church.
So obviously, not all denominations are hateful bigots like the RC Church.
Short of firebombing a local church, how much more do you want me to do?
I’ve been marching in demonstrations since I was 18 (in other words, over 30 years ago) for LGBT rights.
what have YOU done?
I don’t care if you are a member of the largest, gayest Christian church on the planet; like it or not, you’re still supporting and promoting a faith, that is the number one oppressor of the gay community in the world and has been for over a thousand years.
No Hayden, SOME sects of Christianity do that (the same with almost all religions, some do some don’t). And Christianity’s obsession with homosexuality only dates back a mere few hundred years – there is historical evidence that the church once used to bless same-sex couples just as it did opposite sex ones.
Don’t let your hatred of bigotry turn into hatred of an entire – and very, very varied – religious umbrella. If you do that, you just become another blind bigot in turn.
When dealing with those who hate us for how we were born, I try to remember these words: “Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule.” – Buddha.
You said, “the only one’s being haters here are you two.”
If you were referring to me, I only agreed with the 2nd part of Hayden’s initial comment.
As to your point about there being gay-friendly denominations, they are always overlooked because we rarely hear of them. We only tend to hear about the homophobia of the bigger, more well known demoninations like the Catholic church and Churches of Scotland & England, for example. It may not be right that the ones you speak of are overlooked, but it’s understandable.
However, I have no time for people who practice a homophobic religion like catholicism yet claim to be gay-friendly.
Why not tell us the name of this wonderful large denomination?
Presumably it was either a mixed-sex marriage or it took place outside the UK?
The in-named liberal Christian denomination that Mikey seals of has more work to do in distancing itself from its more bigoted counterparts. I can’t imagine which one he’s talking about so they need to shout a bit louder about what they believe. Christianity in general does oppress GLBT people.
Mikey, unless your ‘christian’ denomination has denounced god and the bible, I fail to see how your lot are any different from the rest. ‘A million Christian Moms’ do not belong to the Roman lot, All those ‘christian’ hate groups in the US and around the world are not catholics (in the ‘Roman’ sense. You should read ALL the posts in Pink News about christian homophobic groups with are not exclusively Roman Catholics. I am at a complete loss as to how you can possibly describe yourself as Christian whilst proclaiming that the Roman Catholics are in a ‘disgusting puss (sic) filled bag, which is of itself an ill thought out generalisation coming from a so called Christian. Another Christian I know recently said to me that this whole debate about the church and homophobia was just an excuse to ‘stick it to the Church’ – well yeah! Let’s stick it to the Church, because they are actually responsible for most of the ills in society in one way or another.
Christianity is a very large term that encompasses many denominations, which often interpret the bible in hugely different ways (which just shows how poorly written it is, if there can be so many different interpretations). As is often the case, we here more of the negative things than positive – after all, good news rarely sells papers/generates website hits. News outlets LOVE the anti-gay stuff because it causes controversy and gets people reading.
Let’s take two hypothetical, but very similar stories. 1) a priest denies to marry a same-sex couple and proceeds to preach from his pulpit about the evils of homosexuality and 2) a priest who agrees to marry a same-sex couple and delivers a heart-warming sermon on the power of love to overcome obstacles. Now, of these two stories, which do you think would be most prominently covered in news media? I’ll tell you – number 1. Because bad news sells.
The problem isn’t pro-equality religions staying quiet – its the media IGNORING them.
…”marinated”… eh, eh…. good one, bro
Pigs I’ve read are considered to be highly intelligent animals in contrast to the ignorance of this subhuman creature. He has a lot to learn from them.
I must admit I particularly struggle with understanding how gay Catholics can remain within their demonination given the grotesque comments, ignorance and quite frankly (at times) sheer criminality of some of their leaders.
That said, there are a number of denominations and individual churches within denominations that are campaigning for and striving towards full equality (including for LGBT people).
We may not agree with their theology or their belief system. We may even have read some (or all) of the Bible and disagree with their interpretation of it. However, to deny that there are denominations, individual churches and groups of members of churches that are campaigning with determination to ensure LGBT equality is as facetious and false as saying all gay men act like Graham Norton, Elton John or Julian Clary.
A list of 107 churches in the UK that support LGBT people and seek full equality for LGBT people:
It may be uncharitable … BUT, I sincerely hope ‘the partner’ gives the Archbishop-elect a very medicinal slap in the mouth!!!!
Trouble is he will still be Archbishop and free to say what he thinks is right. His only downfall here is he got caught but nothing will change.
I hope, that the partner gets the possibility to tell the archbishop what a wonderfull person the decaesed was and how full of love their relation was. These facts are important for the archb to think about in the future. (For sure it is in the lifetime of the archb the first time he is speaking a gay person.)
First of all, this nasty bigot’s comments were NOT taken out of context. That’s always the first line of defence but anyone who watches the video can see what he clearly says.
Second, Dermot Kehoe is obviously a better man than me because I would not agree to meet this disgusting homophobe who meant every word of what he said and is only sorry that he’s been caught out.
Cardinal O’Brien is also due to retire soon, so this bloated idiot Tartaglia will be the head of the catholic church in Scotland for the next 15 years. Hopefully it will backfire and cause people to leave the church in droves.
Since this story broke, I’ve also heard that Tartaglia personally knew David Cairns and was involved in his funeral arrangements, and it’s been used to defend what he said.
But in my opinion, that only makes what he said even worse.
Indeed, he’s admitted his own bigotry by his hateful comments.
so it was ok to take their money and bury them in a church even though they hate gays … sounds like they are only interested in one thing – MONEY.
Wonder how this child molester going to di
Probably from gorging on lobster and foie gras. They don’t deny themselves the absolute best of everything from food to clothes to cars while their congregations who pay for it all make do with a lot less themselves. I know that from personal experience as a former catholic.
you got that right, buddy…
Was once a catholic too, once on the receiving end of a priest’s sexual advances when I was 16. Now I’m an avowed atheist. These people don’t care about the poor or those in need and are by no means, ‘christian’ by action or deed. Living luxuriously is not what Jesus Christ had in mind. Wasn’t it he who said if anyone want’s to be a follower, sell all you have and give to the poor? Wasn’t it he who kicked over the tables of the money lenders (some of them rabbis) in the temple? The Roman cult is no different or it’s little sister, the CoE. They’re ‘christian’ in name only, nothing more.
isn’t 16 a bit old for them, thety like them pre-pubescent?
Cant believe the Archbishop would have the nerve to say such terrible things !!
Let’s face facts. If it weren’t for blowback at this bigoted coward, even Ed Miliband and Yvetter Cooper stepping in (no Liberal Dem or Tory) stepping in, he wouldn’t even be discussing a meeting and wouldn’t have offered a weak, indirect apology. What a coward. I hope Dermot Kehoe nails this disgusting example of human detritus and wouldn’t defer to him but call him out for his bigotry and lies.
To be fair to all political parties, the Scottish LibDems issued a strongly worded press release on this, and Nicola Sturgeon made clear her profound disagreement with the Achbishop-elect on this, in TV interviews yesterday.
He should go and meet with Peter Kearney instead so they can fight out their delusions between themselves. Far more productive.
Comments were ‘taken out of context’…. Yeah right. Easy to say once you have offended so many people.
Fact is the Arch-bishop elect knowingly used this tragic loss of someone loved to use as a weapon against us as a community.
Perhaps another commonly used argument from bigots to suggest our love is different to anyone else’s and less significant. This ‘storm’ is proof enough that, that argument is seriously flawed.
Fact remains the man was wrong and should in no way be in the public eye let alone be in a position of authority. The man is an utter disgrace.
He caused this ‘storm’ now he should answer to those he offended now, not when he has thought of all the excuses.
He should be publicly asked to put the words he said into their proper context. Not CHANGE the words he said but repeat what he said word for word and try to twist them into something that isn’t homophobic, ignorant and hateful.
The media too often let people use the “out of context” defense without following up with the obvious response; what was the context? Don’t allow them to rewrite the script in their attempt to distance themselves from their words. Make them take the words that they originally said and put them into context.
I suggest if you haven’t already read this
‘Catholic Church in Scotland: Society ‘should not facilitate gay relationships’
- do so. It links with this article. Clearly the Catholic Church in Scotland have a party line, which is ‘homosexuality leads to early death, suicide and hell ever after. It’s impossible to respect anything about these people and one can only hope that any actual ‘thinking’ people who belong to this or any other Church or religion wake up to the hypocrisy and medieval claptrap they spout. In a way it’s a good thing that they say stuff like this, because it surely weakens their case in general that a) god is about love and peace and b) it has any relevance whatsoever in modern society.
Maybe I should also have said it also weakens their case that there is a god at all
It is time to close down the Roman Catholic Church in Britain as they serve no useful purpose, once and for all or at the very least muzzle and prosecute them for their hate speech.
Seriously disgusting people
The Catholic Relief Act should never have been enacted in the first place. This cult has never forgiven Henry VIII for causing a schism and kicking out the RC cult as the state cult. Yet here it is, trying to influence the outcome of a piece of legislation to discriminate against an entire group of tax-paying citizens, direct interference in our government by issuing threats to those who represent us and who support our rights. It’s about time a line in the sand is drawn and really put these bigots in their place once and for all. They have NO right to tell the government what to do and no right to impose a religious belief on the British public against its will especially those who support equality.
I wonder how the Bishop would react if every time a priest dies below the age of 70, I speculated it might be from the guilt of having shielded child-raping colleagues?
Interesting update in the Glasgow Herald 3 hrs ago . apparently this so called “man of god” has to be asked in writing by Mr Kehoe if he wants an apology
“”The incoming Archbishop of Glasgow will not approach the partner of late MP David Cairns to apologise for making allegedly homophobic remarks about his death, the Catholic Church has said. Mr Cairns’s partner Dermot Kehoe must make a request in writing if he wants to meet with archbishop-elect Philip Tartaglia, according to a spokesman for the Archdiocese of Glasgow.
He “will respond to the approach but won’t make his own approach”, the spokesman said.
Mr Kehoe said that he was angered by press reports that the archbishop-elect had agreed to meet with him when in actual fact he had received no such approach.”"
I hope he doesn’t meet and/or request a meeting with the pretentious prat.
Lock, thanks for the update. It wouldn’t take much time or effort for Archbigot Tartaglia to write a wee note of apology to Dermot Kehoe, but he wants Mr. Kehoe to beg him for an apology!!! Bloody disgusting!!!
Another christian fanatic, really he thinks it was god’s wrath that gays die of disease. At least westboro baptist church have the honesty to be direct in their evil hatred , rather than other christians.
Don’t bother meeting this evil, revolting scum. This is a face saving PR exercise.
my feelings exactly…
Personally, I would tackle it from a slightly different angle.
I would try and set up a media interview with both the Archbishop and Mr Kehoe present and try to show the ignorance, inhumanity and insincerity of the Archbishop on TV – whilst Mr Kehoe shows justfied (but controlled) anger, integrity, civility and patience – whilst pursuing (if need be repeated) questioning about the Archbishops (lack of) understanding about the issues involved, where the Archbishop “had heard” about these clinical links (or what he based his logical fallacy on) and why he felt it appropraite to demean the name of a dead person on fatuous lies.
Its clear Mr Kehoe would come out shining bright, and the Archbishop would not.
Unfortunately, it probably would not happen as the Archbishop lacks the moral courage to face a reasoned debate in public on matters that he grotesquely raises.
Archie Bishop wants to wait until after the media storm to do his back-pedalling. What a slithery old snake.
Too much of this from the RC church. You have to wonder what on earth goes through their heads and what on earth they think people think of them for it. I’m reminded of that bloke hoddle. Hopefully the whole vile, evil RC chirch will got eh same way as hoddle. I thought we got away from the revolting religeous blame the victim thing years ago – but of course the RC church is also still blaming and labeling children “born out of wedlock”. They truly are disciples of the devil.
A ‘media storm’ he himself is responsible for. How this sick individual can hold onto his position as bishop is beyond me. If I were the partner of the deceased I would kick this sick phuck’s head in.
Don’t hold your breath. Tartaglia has been handpicked to lead the Catholic Church in Scotland for the next 15 years as O’Brien is due for retirement next year (Catholic Bishops usually retire at 75). Conti is 78 – he was asked to stay on until they could find a suitable replacement, not just as Archbishop of Glasgow but as a replacement for O’Brien as leader of the Church in Scotland. He won’t be going anywhere.
With him in charge it”s demise will be swift.
Too little too late, you rancid, lard riddled bell end.
The Archbishop is a proud homophobe and knows he is walking on very thin ice.
And with his evident obesity, he will fall straight through.
What about husbands – yes, husbands – of those, who are alive? And what about secret ‘partners’ of many catholic priests? Oh yes, this people live not alone, but in the loving couples – a little too much for Mr. Archbishop, I suspect.
So I take it that straight people are immortal and are going to live forever, then.
What kind of logic is that, then?
It’s worth reading this comment article in today’s Scotsman, by Joyce McMillan:
Fantastic comment, Tim (Thanks for sharing it!)
I particularly liked this:
“The more I consider the conduct of the Catholic Church in this debate, over the last few years, the clearer it becomes that this is not simply a matter of disagreement over whether same-sex relationships are right or wrong. Archbishop Tartaglia, like Bashir Maan of the Glasgow Islamic community, believes that homosexual relationships can never be right; he will not sanction same-sex marriages in Catholic places of worship, and the new law will not compel him to do so.
What is truly chilling, though, and almost embarrassingly ill-judged, is the self-centred arrogance of the church’s conduct in this affair: first in their high-handed attempts to suggest that they have a right to define the meaning of marriage for believers and non-believers alike; then in the sheer intellectual incoherence of their slide from moral condemnation to cheap health-scare mongering; and finally, most shockingly, in the lack of
basic compassion and respect for gay people that was most tellingly revealed in Archbishop Tartaglia’s hurtful and inaccurate speculations about the death of a man he knew, and at whose funeral he helped to officiate. …
To put it bluntly, if the Catholic hierarchy led by Benedict XVI had any living grasp of the faith they claim to represent, they would now be somewhere in the middle of a long decade of repentance and reflection, during which they would refrain – as a matter of decency – from pronouncing on the morality of others, until they have paid the price of their own abject failure. The New Testament is riddled with warnings to this effect; to attend to the beam in your own eye, before denouncing the mote in someone else’s.
Yet when I listen to the pronouncements of Scotland’s leading Catholic churchmen, I often wonder how long it is since they actually read those words; or left the embattled circle of their own colleagues and ardent supporters, to engage with a society
which increasingly rejects their narrow and sexually obsessive definition of morality. In Ireland, the church seems to have reached some kind of endgame, as the state begins to seize church property, in order to pay compensation to victims of abuse. And in Scotland – well, we shall see. But a faith based on a petulant and confused defence of old social prejudices, combined with the recycling of cheap conspiracy theories, seems unlikely to thrive. And the church in which Philip Tartaglia now plays a leading role needs to return to the better principles on which it was founded; or to accept that it is finally running out of time.”
Such a very strong, accurate and clear demonstration of the ignorance, inhumanity and deceit within the Scottish RC hierarchy (and beyond).
I see Lesley Pilkington the discredited “gay cure therapist” is still to put her bogus theories out there whenever and wherever she can. IUt’s sad that she is such a dedicated homophobe, it must be difficult for her gay son coping with such an anti-gay mother who is has so confused her practice of psychotherapy with her personal religious delusions.
There is an article on the internet that is written by a James Pilkington (originally) from London. If it’s the same one you’re talking about, it tells a rather different story…
The relevant link is
Then click on the James Pilkington link.
Thanks Martyn, I don’t know if it is Lesley Pilkingtons son writing or not, seems quite likely though and I especially enjoyed this bit
“My parents hated gay people with a passion, and used to write regularly to their local MP to tell him to make homosexual sex illegal. My mum even used to do ‘straight’ counselling for the church, before she gave up through lack of success.”
Try doing a search for Lesley Pilkington in Rickmansworth on 192.com. You’ll see that a James Pilkington lived there sometime between 2002 and 2009.
Other rlevant links are:
A James ‘N’ contributed to the above book.
Shows that a James Pilkington went to Dr Challoners Grammar School in Amersham (i.e. Not far from Rickmansworth)
Photo, which if I’m not mistaken, has Lesley Pilkington in the background.
The quote that I found very sad was:
“They told me I had been brainwashed by gay propaganda, that I wasn’t really Gay. They told me I had ruined their lives, that everyone at their church would find out. That they could never smile again because of what I had done. That they would have to leave, that their lives were over. They told me I couldn’t come home and that they didn’t want to speak to me again.”
Even fairly mainstream Catholics such as Christina Odone seem to be starting to get very concerned about homophobic and unconscionable remarks from church leaders.
She has just written an interesting article for the Telegraph expressing concern:
If you read the article, do take a look at the many very ignorant and homophobic comments left underneath it.
It looks as though the anti-gay marriage zombies are becoming increasingly worked up now that the PM has clearly reaffirmed his determination to bring the legislation before Parliament.
Cornered rats, and all that…..
Time to fetch the broom! ;)
So Odone has finally taken her blinkers off.
A quick confessional, a couple of hail marys, and perhaps some self flagellation and she,ll be as big and bad as she’s always been.
Actually there will be no meeting or apology unless the partner specifically “asks” for one.
Oh humble these “servants of god” are!!!!
Firstly victimise someone then force them to ask for an apology.
Sick Sick Sick.
This creature should no longer be referred to as Bishop, or Archbishop as that bestows a modicum of respect to him.
The terms bigot, homophobe or idiot should suffice.
Bigotry aside, he’s kind of right, isn’t he? Because of discrimination and oppression, LGBT people are at a greater risk of mental illness and this can have dire consequences for physical health. A couple more words could have transformed this hateful statement into a plea for society to consider the harm it causes to so many people.
That’s not what he was saying though Sarah. He was suggesting that it’s the fact that a man (not a woman note!) is homosexual in and of itself that is detrimental to our health, not outside pressures.
He was commenting on an individual case, of which he should be very aware. He was commenting with inaccuracy about this individual case. He was using logical fallacies to strike fear and distress – with the clear intention of doing so, and I find it worrying that you might seek to endorse this!
Vile creature. What a disgusting comment to make. These relgious right wing have no shame. They care about nothing or no one but their own hate-filled agenda.
“If what I have heard is true about the relationship between physical and mental health of gay men….”
Just as an aside why is it aways gay men that get the most abuse…why not gay women?
The question to the Archbishop was perfectly staged by that horrid leslie pilkington, there was no taking this out of context and ok , the family needs the most apology, but the Archbishop needs to make a open apology to all “gay men”. Not something simply in private , outside the media gaze! He’s insulted all of us not just this PM’s partner and family and if he was willing to make this insult in public then he should damn well make a public apology.
Homosexuality isn’t dangerous. Howvever obesity is, and this Archbishop better get some exercise if he wants to live a long and healthy life.
Is is indeed the case that this obese man is guilty of the sin of gluttony. As has been pointed out, his gross obesity is likely to result in a much earlier death than that of someone not guilty of this sin – one of the seven deadly sins.
To illustrate how wilfully ignorant Tartaglia is, by his deduction, it is tantamount to saying that a 40-something gay man killed in a plane crash, or any accident for that matter, died as a result of his sexual orientation? Really? What about a young heterosexual dying in a similar fate, or dying from pancreatic cancer? Tartaglia and his boss O’Brien are the embodiment of evil.
says the new head of the Scottish Chapter of the International Brotherhood of Paedophiles
Since I was unable to respond to Carl (2) under his comment I’ll reply here.
Are you f’n SERIOUS? I asked you to list me the (in YOUR words) “many” denominations that “fully” support and fight for “FULL” LGBT “EQUALITY” and you linked to a list of individual congregations rather than denominations and the denominations of those congregations included “Anglican”, “Methodist”, CofE, ROMAN CATHOLIC, etc.
Then you have the audacity to call ME childish and insinuate that I’M ignorant. You try to tell us that the Anglican, Methodist, CofE and Roman Catholic denominations are examples of Christian denominations that are FULLY supportive of EQUAL rights for LGBT people and have fought to promote those equal rights and then call ME childish and out of touch?
I’m not a Christian but I know that there is a verse in Proverbs that instructs the wise to turn and walk away from a fool because wise words will be wasted on him.
This is me turning and walking away from you.
Interesting letter to the Archbishop from a Scottish Labour MP:
If the bereaved partner needs to ask for an apology, then it appears the Archbishop knows little of the meaning of sincerity, humility, forgiveness or integrity!
They thought for example that slavery was perfectly fine, absolutely okay. Then they didn’t. What is the point of the Catholic Church if it says, Oh well we couldn’t know better because nobody else did;then what are you for!? SF