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Comment: In the fight for equality, Pride is starting to do more harm than good

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  1. The issue is surely one of intent and choice.

    If I choose to festoon myself in rainbow images, then that is MY choice.

    What you are talking about is no different from why I would call myself a “dyke” and not mind if other LGBT people use that word – but if a straight person uses it, I will bite their head off. Why? Because unless you have had a word as a pejorative, shouldered it, dealt with it and are reclaiming it, then don’t use it.

    Nice use of victim blaming, by the way, how classy of you.

    Frankly, I am inclined to consider this whole article a Poe – Because surely no one is actually this stupid, leading me to believe it must be a satire rather than apologist drivel.

    1. I completely agree with Valksey. Fantastic comment.

      1. Valksy*

    2. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 4:21pm

      I to completely agree. Great comment.

    3. Yes the wording in the article is bad however its point is on the mark in my opinion. I don’t go to pride because it does not represent me at all, it represents camp gay men I’m not a camp and I don’t think most people are its focus is completely off. if you want a pride event for being camp or dressing up in drag then please do, but declaring all LGBT people as the same thing is just as bad as the bigots yelling the hate at us. Pride events need to be toned down and balanced out at the least.
      You can also argue that it is segregation and should not be pride just for gay people but maybe an equality pride calling for all forms of rights.

      1. Wim in Holland 2 Jul 2012, 9:40am

        When you haven’t been there (at the pride), you do not know for sure, that it does not represent you “at all”. It is all that roumor and stories by hearsay that are most damaging!

        1. Jock S. Trap 2 Jul 2012, 10:12am

          Indeed, it’s no different to the bigots fighting against us… they fight on assumption not fact.

      2. Jock S. Trap 2 Jul 2012, 10:10am

        Yet again your talking about a small percentage of people.

        Not All are ‘camp’

        Not All are ‘dressed up in drag’

        Nobody suggest Pride events speaks for All the community.

        And for those who think All go to get drunk…again it’s just a small percentage not the majority.

        Why should others be stopped enjoying themselves because of some small, narrow minded people who clearly don’t like seeing other enjoy themselves while sending out a message of acceptance and celebration.

        Nobody suggests we’re ‘All the same’ that’s just bigotry and quite frankly pathetic.

        Fact is you by your comment suggests ‘segregation’ but it is and your kind doing the segregating.

        Just because you don’t want it don’t assume all are the same as you, it makes your comment completely hypocritical.

      3. Your comment is precisely correct.

        I have been to pride parades in three major American cities and one abroad. For me, these so-called celebrations have conjured up many thoughts and feelings, none of which resemble even the faintest shade of pride.

        Though both groups are undoubtedly members of the same global LGBT community, there exists a distinct difference between a queer person and a person who is queer. Parades cater to and laud only members of the former category and succeed in further extinguishing a sense of community belongingness for those of us in the latter.

    4. Absolutely, Valksy

      Every Pride I have been to whether in the UK or overseas has had at least two elements – party and campaigning. Every single one.

      Every Pride I have been to has had a wide range of people attending it – male, female, black, white, camp, non-camp, conventional, unconventional, political, apolitical, etc etc

      Not everyone who goes to Pride wears skimpy clothes, fetish gear or feather boa’s – but I love the fact that those who wish to can.

      Not everyone who goes to Pride is a massive flirt, on a binge or provocative in their behaviour – but why shouldn’t those who want to?

      Not everyone who goes to Pride uses it as a significant springboard for political campaigning – but it is entirely the right place for those who choose to, to consider doing so.

      Pride is about choice. Pride is about rights. Pride is about fun.

      Pride is not about restricitng what others do or looking down snootily on others because they do not fit the preconceived ideas of one person or group

  2. This argument has gone round and round more times than I care to remember. And by the way, it really does smack of the comments I’ve heard from straight people saying, “I don’t mind gay people, but why shove it in my face?” Or “Why have a gay pride, there isn’t a straight pride?”

    You cannot start blaming bullied teens on drag queens and camp men, that’s almost as ignorant as the bullies themselves.

    Quite an outrageous article really.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 29 Jun 2012, 4:37pm

      And we don’t mind straight people, as long as they don’t shove theirs in our faces either. Everyday we’re confronted by it, on the t.v., in films, in the papers, in the streets, holding hands and kissing in public just because they’re the majority and have their equality which they take for granted.

  3. Kerry Hollowell 29 Jun 2012, 1:01pm

    There is a lot of value to this article. I speak as a gay man in a very long term relationship and civil partnered with 3 children.
    I am not against gay pride events but do wish the main focus would be on promoting the worth and contribution the LGBT community make to the larger community, especially the parade or march part of the event. We need to show the wider public how diverse we are rather than just promoting the arse hanging out provocative side of LGBT life.

    1. Yawn.

      Your comment indicates that you think being CP’ed and with spawn makes you better than a big leather daddy in chaps or a flaming drag queen, or a Dyke on a Bike.

      (Hint to you: It doesn’t mae you better – it merely makes you different from thern)

      1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 1:47pm

        No it doesn’t. It just shows how diverse a community we are.

        Your clearly a very sensitive person who like to see argument in everything good or bad.

      2. dAVID

        Not sure why Kerry’s comments made you think that he/she feels that they consider themselves to be “better than a big leather daddy in chaps or a flaming drag queen, or a Dyke on a Bike”.

        I see no such content in Kerry’s comments.

        I do think Pride is bigger and more diverse than what Kerry suggests though.

    2. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 4:02pm

      If you don’t like it, dissassociate yourselves from it and start your own festival, probably a really boring festival, with people in suits, the usual corporate type music….etc…etc….don’t try to make me what you want me to be and I won’t try to make you be what I want you to be! simple.

  4. Who the heck is this TopherGen?

    1. He’s a journalism student.

      I grade his article as an ‘F’ for being incoherent and illogical and merely highlighting the fact that he has personal issuies and a complete lack of awareness of the origins or purpose of the matter he is discussing.

      1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 1:48pm

        So because someone has a difference of opinion to you they must have ‘personal issues’… how very mature…. Not!

        1. Says you Jock! Labeling people on here as boring when they don’t agree with you.

    2. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 7:58am

      Does it matter? Who the hell are all the other journo’s on here.

  5. While Mr Gen may perhaps have a valid point, I think he very badly undermines it by choosing the wrong targets.

    The rainbow flag is most certainly not a stereotype. it is a unifying symbol for the community. it speaks of its history and its stuggles. Just like the million Union flag hanging all over britain following the jubilee. Are these stereotypes to?

    It is also interesting that Mr Gen only singles out what may be described as the gender bending aspect of Pride marches. Nothing about pumped up naked bodies or leather-clad buttocks, which could just as much been seen as gay stereotypes. They have however the “merit” of being “masculine” and this leads me to thing that Mr Gen may be evincing symptoms of that old friend of ours: Internalised homophobia. Mr Gen, is embarrassed by that which is different, he wants to pass.

    (continued)

  6. And yet another one who tries to make us conform to be as normal as possible. I hate the word normal. We are all special. If people want to show their pride by waving rainbowflags half naked. So be it. Trying to get people to conform to the standard is not equality….. Equality is doing what you want to do without hurting anybody else.

    1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 1:51pm

      Indeed but what is normal? I see the article as someone who sees being different as wrong when I see it as Normal and to be honest makes for a better society. It wouldn’t do for us all to be the same and have to say it’s being different and diverse that make us as normal as everyone else.

      Whats to celebrate in everyone being, acting, saying things in the same way to please some stereotype of a deluded Normal person.

  7. Mommie Dammit 29 Jun 2012, 1:05pm

    Valksy, bravo!

    Poor little Topher, still lost in his self-loathing closet. So fearful of rainbows and worried that some effeminate “queen” is going to be standing too close. After all, it might rub off!

    You’re pathetic, Topher, and a hypocrite. Valsky is right about your use of victim-blaming. That rainbow flag you so despise is more noble and valued than any nation’s banner; it actually stands for something. I’ve fought for it in my home, my work, and on the streets for over 40 years and I will continue to do so.

    I did NOT spend all these years fighting for our civil rights so I could be insulted by some wet-nose puppy who has no appreciation of the trials and effort it took to get this world to the point where he could have an Internet to post his drivel. While you’re cringing in your closet in Glasgow, I’ll be stomping my high-heels in the middle of the next homophobic a**hole who gets in our way… including you, if necessary.

    1. Preach, sista!

    2. Well said!

    3. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:16am

      And the rest of us did not spend all those years just to be able to mince through Picadilly in 9″ heels.
      Get a fcking life! Gay rights is for everybody, not just the vocal minority that choose to shout about it.

      1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:44am

        If it weren’t for the “vocal minority that chose to shout about it” – i.e. the Queens of Stonewall and all of our diversity of our GLBTQ communities that stood up and shouted, we wouldn’t be where we are now – on the verge of universal human rights for everyone!

        1. Spanner1960 1 Jul 2012, 8:18am

          Stonewall just happened to be one incident, and I’m sure there were many there that weren’t dragged up.
          There are many other people that nobody notices that have contributed just as much, if not more, to the gay cause as those that have resorted to camp spectacle.

          1. Indeed there were many who were not “camped up”, as you put it, at Stonewall (judging from photographic evidence).

            However, there were some.

            Both those who wished to dress up, and those who did not were welcome at Stonewall. Why should we restrict who should participate in Pride, given that the daddy of all Pride events – Stonewall – made no such restriction?

      2. Spanner1960

        So, you don’t like how some people “do Pride”.

        Correct me if I am wrong, but did you seek to encourage LGBT freedoms and rights? Did you seek to put any limitation on expression?

        I guess the answer is no.

        You may not like how some people dress or party at Pride – they may feel the same about you.

        1. Spanner1960 3 Jul 2012, 3:54pm

          Sure, but I don’t alter or reinforce the stereotypical public perception of gay people – they do. THAT is the nub of this argument.

          1. By staying away people who are not part of that perception also reinforce the stereotype perhaps, by not presenting an alternative – if you;re not part of the solution, you are part of the problem

  8. Surely the whole point of these things is to show that, actually, there’s nothing wrong with conforming to the stereotypes if you want to. Some people like the stereotypes, and find great comfort and pleasure in expressing them. And that’s okay. That’s fine. And there is a big problem with telling them that they shouldn’t.

    I don’t think anyone in the gay community feels they HAVE to conform to the stereotypes. So what you’re essentially whining about is straight people who don’t realise that these stereotypes are just that – stereotypes. Well I think education is the way to fix that, not self-censorship.

    If Pride marches were the only visible LGBT presence in our society, that would be a problem. But they’re not. There are plenty of other depictions of gay life about, and only the most myopic of people could fail to see Pride parades as anything more than a small part of the tapestry.

    And, yeah, blaming the victims of bullying for that bullying is rather tacky and shameful.

    1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:18am

      “If Pride marches were the only visible LGBT presence in our society, that would be a problem. But they’re not. There are plenty of other depictions of gay life about.”

      Call me myopic, I’d like a few examples please. I cannot think of anything that has as high an exposure value to LGBT people than Pride.

      1. Examples of LGBT visibility:

        LGBT characters in film, TV drama, soap
        LGBT celebrities
        LGBT politicians
        LGBT issues being considered by most major organisations and charities
        LGBT issues in news.

        And I could go on …

        Visibility of LGBT issues has marched massively in the last 20-30 years

        1. As Anderson Cooper said yesterday “Asa society we are moving toward greater inclusion and equality for all people, the tide of history only advances when people make themselves fully visible. There continue to be far too many incidences of bullying of young people, as well as discrimination and violence against people of all ages, based on their sexual orientation”

    2. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:14am

      Way to go VP! We are about diversity and inclusiveness. We didn’t fight for our rights only to draw a line beneath us “respectable” gays and lesbians, in order to court the approval of society and to conspire with them to relegate leather men, drag queens, bisexuals, trans people, bears, effeminate men or butch women as inferior to “normal” gays and lesbians in order to kiss the as*s of straight homophobes. You should be ashamed of your self hating bigotry – Topher Gen (which I don’t even think is a real name – just another closet to hide responsibility for your own homophobia).

  9. (continued)

    Well, he may not be the only one wanting to conform (after all the current quest for marriage equality is in some part at least linked to that) but many others in the community don’t want to live as straight people do. they want to remain individuals with their own way of doing things.

    Trying to stifle those aspirations seem to me very similar to those of the homophobes, who can abide something different to their view of the word. Live and let live, I say.

  10. completely disagree with the author. He is not talking about equality, he’s talking about conformity to a narrow set of societal norms. Diversity is about a live-and-let-live approach, tolerance to people’s lifestyle choices. Many people to choose to dress up for pride and it is entirely harmless. They’re not breaking the law – why should someone find it offensive? This article is dripping with self-loathing from someone who clearly has not got over the school taunts, and advocates that to be tolerated, gay men and lesbians become invisible from everyone else. No ‘offending’ people with affection in public too, i guess. It’s not a new idea, dearie, it’s called ‘the closet’ and it’s day has long gone.

    1. Indeed Gus.

  11. I’ve never heard of anyone saying “where’s your rainbow flag?” – there is nothing wrong with gay people using the rainbow flag. It doesn’t attract homphobia.

    That said, I agree with the badly-worded message of this article – that the sexualised, camped up, and barely-clothed spectacle of Pride does not help with homophobia.

    However, having the NHS, Police, Army, Firemen, ASDA workers or whatever DOES.

    The message that’s being sent out then is “look how we’re just like you”.

    It might be more fun to rub that side of the gay scene in people’s faces, but all it does reinforce the stereotype of us being drag queens, and promiscuous deviants. Homophobia is fueled by the distrust of something that’s ‘different’, so if we want to tackle homophobia, then we should be doing everything to show how we’re actually pretty much the same.

    Some of the stuff isn’t appropriate for public display, either.

    The idea of Pride is a good idea, but the realisation of that idea never is.

    1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:45pm

      Sorry Jake but what a boring world you must live it.

      I much prefer diversity and freedom to be who we want to be, not sucking up to some pretence of what may or may not be considered ‘normal’

    2. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 4:27pm

      Nope wrong. I don’t like the sally army and their crap, but it doesn’t mean I’ve a right to say they shouldn’t exist, or have to conform to what I want.

      1. I didn’t say they shouldn’t exist – I’m just pointing out how their presence in the Pride march doesn’t help stereotypes…and it’s the stereotypes that fuel discrimination.

        1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 5:26pm

          But surely the more people are visible the more they are seen as the norm. You don’t get that if you hid and pretend you have to conform to straight stereotypes.

          1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:36am

            Some of us simply don’t wish to associate with that drunken rabble. I am not trying to be “straight acting”, that is just me. Or more to the point it is those that go there that want to conform to the gay stereotypes and be as outrageous and controversial as possible.

          2. Jock S. Trap 30 Jun 2012, 11:40am

            So the answer then is don’t go but don’t stop others who enjoy it.

            For you lot who say we don’t need Pride events:- Very often Pride event are still the only time most can openly hold hands or kiss in public without fear of discrimination. That doesn’t suggest that all the work that needs to be done has been. It shows much more needs to be done.

          3. Spanner1960

            You don’t have to associate with stereotypes if you choose not to.

            You don’t have to associate with “drunken rabble” if you don’t want to.

            You can easily go to Pride and not experience either.

            You should be as welcome to Pride as those you seem to stereotype.

        2. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:21am

          Wrong – it is homophobia whether from straight people or internalized homophobia from gay people that fuels discrimination. Your attempt to surpress our diversity, like that of the author’s is a disgusting surrender to self-hate, internalized homophobia, and bigotry!

  12. PN, was this really the best Gay Shame article you could find? At least the London World Pride expose was enlightening.

    This poorly argued, frequently incomprehensible nonsense has been refuted so often it’s embarrassing.

    Try this excellent (and hilarious) AE piece
    http://www.afterelton.com/column/2012/06/pride-day-get-over-it-haters

    Or at least check out the title.

    If you don’t like leather daddies, don’t have sex with one.

    The least we can do is grant others in our community the same tolerance and respect we’d like straight people to grant us. Or are some LGBTs more equal than others?

    1. I just think there’s a bigger picture – what is the value of the public being shown leather daddies?

      Why is it that straight people into similar fetishes don’t feel the need to parade it down the street!

      Don’t get me wrong, I’m no prude ;-) I just think of the point of Pride, the reality of homophobia and just how little good the parade does in its current form.

      1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 1:59pm

        Because when the straight community has been doing it for centuries they have been persecuted for being themselves. Why shouldn’t we be free to be ourselves and be comfortable with it?

        That doesn’t show us in a bad light, it shows how much we have come together, progressed and why should people stop just because too many satisfy the long argued sentiment that the British are a bunch of proods when it comes to sex.

        Oh sure those who can’t stop thinking about what two men do in bed will use it, while claiming they’re ‘not’ gay but if it’s all they can think about then that really is there problem not ours!

        1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 2:00pm

          Sorry…. correction meant “They haven’t been persecuted…”

        2. Typical PN comment-makers, marking me down without thinking about what I’m saying.

          We’ve not been persecuted for being leather daddies, we’ve been persecuted for being gay.

          Walking down the street half naked doesn’t show how far we’ve come at all. It’s nothing to do with it.

          Your last paragraph is just wrong – it’s what I mean about there being a bigger picture:

          Quite simply, my point is, that if you want to tackle homophobia, then walking down the street in fetish gear is not the way to do it. All that sexual stuff is such a visual feast compared to everything else – that’s what people take home with them. That’s what they think represents gay people.

          It is of course a reality that a minority of gay people are into leather, etc but it isn’t helpful in attempting to achieve equality. There’s nothing wrong with it, but you have to factor in other people’s ignorance. The bigger picture!

          1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:32pm

            1) I haven’t marked ANYone down but thanks for showing your a multiple name user.

            2) I never said anything about being persecuted for being leather daddies but for being ourselves ie Gay, Lesbian etc.

            3) If it’s not progress and showing how far we’ve come then please try wearing such items in Moscow Pride… oh no you can’t! Well anywhere of those kinds of countries and see ‘how far we’re come’.

            4) Only shallow minded people ‘take that home with them’ and that’s totally up to them. If they insist on being prudes then so be it, thats their problem. If people were actually having sex then maybe I would agree with you but surely by being visible we can only effectively tackle all forms of discrimination. If we feel the need to hide certain aspects then aren’t we suggesting that there is something wrong about it? It’s that, that creates and contribute to discrimination, not being open and visible.

          2. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:34pm


            5) People wearing leather has nothing to do with the equality argument but more of an excuse to give to the bigots mainly because some just don’t have the courage to stand out.

            6) People’s ignorance is their own problem, their own doing. I couldn’t care less about those who chose to be uneducated, nor their bigoted opinions but I will happily teach and try and progress not limit and hide.

          3. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:27am

            Bravo Jock S. Trap. Couldn’t have said it better myself! Too bad some of our community would sell off the rest of us for the straight homophobes’ pale definition of “normal”!

        3. We we’ve found we’re we fundamentally disagree — I see it an opportunity to tackle homophobia whereas you see it an opportunity to stick two fingers up.

          The multiple user thing is complex, nothing to do with trolling or anything. I hope I don’t come across like a troll…just try to make reasonable points!

          1. Awful grammar. Friday in the office, very tired! “Well we’ve found where”*

  13. I suspect PinkNews published this article for this little self-hating gay boy knowing the reaction it would get. Well done PinkNews for teaching him a lesson. According to him, it’s his first published article? I suspect it will be his last.

  14. Topher Gen has serious issues.

  15. I’ve heard this argument before and it’s full of holes I’m afraid.
    I’m really tired of gay people banging on about how camp men and drag queens give us a bad name….We’re fighting for equality, and while staggering around drunk isn’t really campaigning behaviour, go to any heterosexual festival and you’ll find exactly the same drunken, ridiculous behaviour. And I really resent the suggestion that to get more equality we should conform to accepted norms.
    However, I do wish gay (men, particularly) wouldn’t be so hedonistic, but that will change with further equality and acceptance, not because of some bitter queen being down on the Rainbow Flag.

  16. Why focus on such a small selection of “stereotypes” and single them out for scorn? The beautiful thing about Pride is that if you can thin of a so-called gay stereotype, it will be there, as will all the ones you haven’t even heard of.

    Plus all the ones that you never even dared to dream of because you’ve spent your schooldays being told that it’s all drag queens and the Village People.

    Funnily enough, Pride shows that, contrary to the drivel that we’re fed by so-called journalism students like this, gays come in all shapes and sizes, clothes and otherwise. Even (deep breath) “straight-acting” gays are involved.

    I think Mr Gen needs to stop chasing journalistic notoriety and start using his brain instead of his notepad to think with.

    1. And having glanced down the headlines on the first page of his blog, I’d say he really has a problem with gays who don’t fit his “straight-acting” Orwellian idea of conformist equality.

  17. This article is utter drivel and borderline homophobic. I can’t be bothered to unpick every outrageous statement here, but you are disseminating some rather poisonous mythmaking here that plays into the hands of homophobes.

    With all due respect Pink News, you publish some dreadful guest contributions. First that right-wing Zionist attempting to smear the UN Human Rights Council suggesting they represented the views of the anti-gay Egyptian delegation (for which you were later forced to later post a retraction) and now this.

  18. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 1:42pm

    What absolute rubbish.

    What Pride does is celebrate the massive diversity with our own community and those that support us AND to fight for the right to be seen and respected just like everyone else.

    There is still plenty to do and for us to be visible is as important as ever.

    So what if it end up being a street party too? So what is some get drunk, dress up… whatever. Just as it’s important to improve our future it is very important not to forget our past and how people were victimised, blackmailed, jailed, murdered etc before before being Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual was legalised, was starting to be accepted.

    Our community is just as importamt as everyone else and like everyone else we have the right to celebrate it and the right not to, however you chose to be.

    Now the latter should be for marriage too and for that reason alone the event is important.

    1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 1:44pm

      Another reason is to let our community brothers and sisters around the world who Don’t have the same freedoms, see that things can change for the better and that we are Not forgetting them either.

      Over a million people cannot be ignored and this is another reason alone this event must be seen and achieved.

      Rights come to those that are seen and heard not to those that pander to the weak and religious extremist.

  19. Stereotypes are always based in some form of truth.,

    Many gay men are effeminate., Many lesbians are butch.

    These are ‘stereotypes’ for certain.,

    Topher Gen seems not to like these stereotypes.

    Therefore Topher Gen is the worst type of gay person – a self-hating gay homophobe.

    1. What tosh. He is merely representing the views of practically every “normal”, intelligent gay person I know. Most of us live a mainstream life without fear these days, and my life has nothing to do with these parading, half naked, junked up and camp as tits queens mincing and screeching around the streets. This is the gay equivalent of pumped up and pissed straight football hooligans, roaring and fighting their testosterone-fueled way through some stupid match before spilling into the streets and causing havoc. Both are vile in my opinion. I’ve been in a very happy gay relationship for the past 10 years, as have many of my friends. Gay Pride doesn’t represent us any more than aggressive football fans do. I thought the whole point of assimilation was to allow us to come out of the closet and live normal lives, not keep trying to prove how “different” we are. I just find the whole Gay Pride thing outdated and embarrassing. It is certainly not a reflection of mainstream gay life in 2012.

      1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:43pm

        So the answer is simple… you have the choice NOT to do it. It’s your right. It’s your freedom of choice.

        Fair enough, yeah… but it really doesn’t become your right to stop others who do want to march, party whatever in whatever items of clothing and make a stand, statement or whatever Pride means to anyone who wishes to do it.

        Where does living ‘normal lives’ exclude the right to celebrate who I am.

        You may feel Gay Pride doesn’t represent YOU but don’t speak for all of us because YOU don’t represent all of us.

        Fact by hiding away trying to ‘fit in’ doesn’t get us equality it’s making a stand and being visible. I want the right to get married and if that means for the first time in years I go and do Pride this year then so be it, I will be visible and provide food for thought to all those who dismiss far too quickly.

        1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:48pm

          The fact you used words like camp, queens and mincing shows you up for what you are I’m afraid.

          Maybe what those words show is people who aren’t ashamed to be who they are and show it. I rather that than a on the line society where everyone is expected to conform the same way. How very boring.

          1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:50pm

            Jake – You might feel the need to apologise to everyone for being Gay but I and many others certainly don’t and I will never hide it no matter what comes my way.

          2. Why are you saying Jake here?! You’re not replying to me.

          3. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 5:28pm

            Jake – I do apologise I did mean Johnny.

        2. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:03am

          I choose not to.
          Most people are very surprised to discover I am gay, because I DON’T follow that typical stereotype.

          It took many years to figure it out myself because I thought “I don’t mince about, or like muscle men, or want to dress like Tom of Finland, so I can’t be gay.”

          1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:35am

            Absolutely your choice, just as everyone else choice is theirs. No need for any of us to contribute to straight homophobes attempts to villify any of us.

      2. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 4:30pm

        drivel Johnny

      3. Johnny, I agree with you.

        The Pride march doesn’t help normalise being gay and it plays its part in homophobia, in my opinion. By normalise I don’t mean conform, I mean that it helps society look on the LGBT community as being a normal part of it.

        It seems that a lot of people here love the idea of painting the gay community as something extreme, different, an almost anti-hetero movement. As exciting as that seems, that’s not my idea of equality.

        1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 5:35pm

          Ridiculous Jake.

          No-one even suggests the gay community needs to be something “extreme, different, an almost anti-hetero movement”.

          Whether you like it or not just like the anybody else our community have many different kinds of people that is equality. Why do we have to hid that? So some people are camp… big deal… there comes whether someone is straight, bi or gay.

          Surely the way to deal with discrimination is to be out their to show that we are just as important in society as the next person. Thats comes in many different ways and many different people. We have enough problems with bigots who try and tell us we shouldn’t be and far from your claim your way help discrimination it actually feeds it.

          Fact the more people are out there the more people see our community as the ‘norm’ (whatever that means). We don’t need to conform to anything… Straight people don’t so why the hell should we be expected to? It’s called being an individual and that is reason enough to celebrate.

          1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 5:38pm

            We can only tackle discrimination with open minds not hidden closed off one. It’s is the closed minded that fuel discrimination and the last 4 decades since legalisation has proved.

          2. You seem like a very angry man, jockstrap. Hope your life gets better soon, pet. x

      4. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 7:53pm

        Yeah! So says the stereotyped metrosexual type! Have you never heard of an architype by the way?

        1. No, but I have heard of an archetype, love.

  20. While many would agree that the level of drunken revelry undermines the political strength of Pride, the implication that it is drag queens and cross-dressers doing the damage (and are somehow an embarrassment) is incredibly offensive.

    I’m 20, and I hate this kind of ‘post-gay’ attitude exhibited by some people of my generation, who seem to believe that equality must come hand-in-hand with conformity and ‘straight-acting.’

    If this article had been written by a straight person, I do not think for a second that Pink News would have shown it the light of day. Incredibly close-minded, ignorant and offensive.

    1. Look at me, I’m different!!! Yawn.

  21. This article is too sloppy to merit further comment.

  22. Left Eye Right Eye 29 Jun 2012, 1:56pm

    Er how dare you tell me what I can and can’t do to celebrate my sexuality just because some dickheads may go to the same event and because some dickheads are incapable of treating people as individuals. Homophobia isn’t my fault and my problem it is the fault of homophobes.

    Was there no homophobia before gay rights? No. It’s irrelevant, homophobes are just homophobes.

    Disgusting article. Really really sickened, saddened, and angered by it.

  23. The writer’s argument is the same as the one blaming women for being raped by what they wear.
    Going to gay pride to have a fun time, support local businesses and seeing friends i rarely get to see is not an excuse for people to abuse me.

    Is the author also suggesting the million man march should be abandoned too?

    1. Excellent comment

      1. No, it’s an over simplistic and cliched argument, I’m afraid. Much like Gay Pride itself. It no longer has a purpose, it’s just a big fairy screaming session. By all means go and enjoy it, but please don’t think it’s of any importance in 2012. I marched with the best of them when there was a point to it 20 years ago. The younger generation have had the freedom we fought for handed to them on a plate. The older generation have now blended seamlessly into society and live openly as gay people – which is the right we were marching for in the first place. Squealing like a little girl and running around with rainbow flags only proves that you’re queer (in every sense), not that you’re making any relevant contribution to any sort of gay cause.

  24. Topher Gen (is this an anagram of something?) is a very good troll. And look how we all feed the troll. He may well be a good journalism student, as after all, journalists want to be noticed and reacted to, it is how they gain their fame. How they write, is equally important to what they write.

    9/10 for effort, Topher. Very good trolling indeed.

    That said, if you really believe any of this drivel, you need to grow up already and stop worrying what the world thinks of you. Chances are that a) they are not thinking about you or b) they don’t evem know you exist or c) neither.

    I am not a dyke on a bike leather daddy tits in the wind and dick out to air sort of lesbian (not that I have a dick, but you get the drift) but damned if I would do all of that in a heartbeat to rub the face of some homophobe in their preconceived nasty notions of: I don’t mind gays, so long as they act straight in public.

    Live free, or die. I would rather die on my feet, than live on my knees.

  25. Aryu Gaetu 29 Jun 2012, 2:25pm

    I have never thought of the Pride Parades, or their intent, as being an accurate zoological-quality example of what a homosexual looks like if one was found in the wild. If that were the case, there would be hundreds of overweight gays on floats in just their underwear, hunched over a computer, trying to pay his monthly bills.

    The idea for any parade is to shout “We’re here!”. Who better to do this than our flag wavin’, heel wearin’, brothers?

    I believe in getting any exposure at (nearly) any cost, and the very last thing I worry about is if some addle minded heterosexual believes a parade is an accurate representation of any group.

    If anyone takes away anything but, “Damn, they sure do know how to throw a party!”, screw ‘em, they’re not worth it.

    It took me decades to leave the closet. Like Hell if some anally retentive prick is going to rain on my parade and shove it back into the closet.

    There is nothing more evil than a self-righteous act cloaked as “for their own good.”

    1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:41am

      Totally right. The “I got mine – I’m alright Jack” syndrom. Disgusting!

  26. Wow, what a vile hideous article. The voracity is unbelievable. Why has a homophobe been allowed to write an article on pink news? Quite weird. If we could thumb down an article, I think this one would have disappeared by now. Better still, maybe Ben Cohen should read it, then take it off the site. Or does someone really need to point out to him and the pink news staff how vulgar the ‘journalism’ is in this article? Maybe I should go and “scribble ‘AIDS’ on my index finger”? Disgusting.

    1. And btw, PINK NEWS staff. If this article is not taken off this site. I will NEVER visit this site again.

  27. Gemma Gillon 29 Jun 2012, 2:37pm

    Topher’s comments can be summed up in the simple phrase

    ” Get back in the closet ”

    Thats what he really means.

  28. I agree with the article. I’m fed up of people going out of their way to live up to stereotypes. How on earth is the gay community able to achieve a level or normality when it continues to pride itself on a separate identity?

    Gay pride was necessary once; but now, in the modern west, it’s increasingly demeaning. It’s also bad for young people like myself; I’m scared of being seen as one of those ridiculous half-naked crazies on pride floats. It does nothing to alter the opinions of middle-aged people by throwing everyone in the LGBT community under the same worn-out banner.

    1. I’m not, by the way, spitting down on the typical gay scene culture; it’s just not for me and so I hate it people try to speak for everyone in a group. Sexuality is a matter of pride; it’s just a part of us. It doesn’t need to be played up or down, you know?

      1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:49am

        WE are only trying to speak for everyone in all our diversity – not as though we represent everyone and were all alike – because we’re not. You only need to represent yourself and quite judging others by the standards of the homophobes – its called internalized homophobia and you should be ashamed to be supportive of it!

    2. “I’m fed up of people going out of their way to live up to stereotypes.” To quote Star Trek “You will be assimalated”, as that what we should go for? People don’t live up to stereotypes, people are people. Gay or straight, there are camp men, butch men. manly men, not so manly men and everything in between.

      If everyone behaving the same way is how we “achieve a level of normality” then book me a one way flight to the Swiss clinic now. And I say that as, what I would consider, a fairly “normal” man. If you’re scared that some in our community make you be seen as “one of those ridiculous half-naked crazies on pride floats” then you know what the answer is? Get out there, march and show that our community is just as diverse as anywhere else.

      1. So what are you saying, then? That all gay people are represented by macho men wearing rainbow pants on floats? Like I said, if people act like that then I really don’t care, just as they don’t care about me. But I don’t call for a parade of hetero-acting gays and claim that we are the LGBT community, because I recognise that we’re all different, united only by sexual attraction.

        1. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:57pm

          “Like I said, if people act like that then I really don’t care,”

          Yeah I find that hard to believe since your making such a statement degrading some in our community instead of see how diverse it is.

          YOU choice to think more about what people think of you by whatever pathetic notion but please don’t kid yourself, or us it doesn’t bother you when it clearly does but then you chose it that way.

        2. Mark, I agree with you. I just think about my parents watching it and cringe a little bit.

          I don’t like “screw you” crude-for-the-sake-of-it part of Pride. It comes from being oppressed…but I do feel we have to move away from it if we wanted to be treated equally across the board. Not within the gay scene, but certainly in something as public as Pride.

          And It’s so easy to dismiss my attitude as being embarrassed about who I am – it’s rubbish, I made one of the first Out4Marriage videos.

          I’ve been on the radio talking about equal rights for gay people.

          I just think I must have a very different idea of what helps equality and homophobia to other people.

          1. And I also take part in the Pride March in Manchester (with the NHS).

          2. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 5:48pm

            Well surely people that cringe are part of the well know prudes and nothing to do with our community but their own insecurities.

            The only people with the oppressed attitudes is people like you who feel we should hid who we are yet we make a vital contribution to society yet still face too much discrimination. That is pure because people like you think we just should behave in Your way not as a multiple of personalities.

          3. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 5:49pm

            I guess there is a slight screw you attitude to me from bigots because I have suffered at the hand of them and bugger if I’m ever going to let them win again. When your forced from your home in the area you were born I guess you get like that. So yes if people can’t accept me.. tough. That’s there loss. It’s there problem not mine and I don’t waste my time worrying what people think. I’ve lived through racist and homophobia when I was with my late partner of 20 years and it’s the very reason my son is now at university to become a human rights lawyer because at the end of the day it is not our community that is wrong it is those bigots that you fed with your limited attitude.

          4. Thanks Jake for the comment. It’s not about “internalised homophobia” – that would be to suggest that I dislike my orientation which, although obviously it’d be easy to be straight, has nothing to do with my dislike of the flaunting sexual attitude that is so readily embraced and promoted as “the gay way”. I don’t like it in the straight or gay communities; it’s just that for some reason LGBT groups seem to have no problem with acting as though that is our only identity.

    3. Jock S. Trap 29 Jun 2012, 3:54pm

      Mark but aren’t you living out a stereotype? That of someone who is ashamed to be themselves and feels the need to apologise to everyone for it.

      Perhaps think about what you for a change and not about what some pathetic narrow minded people think. Your only giving them to excuse to discriminate is you pander to them.

      1. No, I’m not “ashamed” to be myself. What I am saying, and what you seem unable to comprehend, is that I am not the same person as you. Which means gay pride parades should stop acting as though they encompass the entire LGBT community with their flaunting drag queens. I find that embarrassing in both the straight and gay communities; what pride parades bring to the tv is a frame of mind that depicts the latter as nothing but a superficial sex shop. It creates a set lifestyle that stereotypes anyone with a certain sexual identity and greatly hinders the movement to equality.

        1. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 8:01pm

          Gay pride events don’t reflect the Gay community? Are you saying the people in those parades aren’t gay? Isn’t going to be much of a carnival though is it, all those people in suits listening to mantovani and sipping a drop of sherry?

          1. Are you intentionally ignoring my comments? I am saying that those who attend gay pride are usually gay, yes, but that they are not the only gay people. Some people don’t like being sexualised, you know.

          2. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 10:56am

            So Mark. Go to the parades and be who you are and let everyone else do the same. That way you represent your part of our diversity. Is that too complex for you to understand?

      2. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:27am

        Jock: You just don’t get it do you?
        You shoot your fat mouth off and assume everybody else is just the same as you. That is the entire crux of what this author is saying: A handful of vocal and obvious gays are representing everyone else, so it’s no wonder the stereotype continues. I’m not knocking those that want to flaunt it, but just don’t complain when others think we are all like that.

        1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:01am

          As usual Spanner1960, you (and Mark) are claiming that “a handful of vocal and obvious gays are representing everyone else” – wrong they are representing themselves. It is up to you to represent yourselves without subscribing to the self-limiting demands of homophobes. Your desire for “respectability” is demeaning to everyone. You remind me of Log Cabin Republicans and Ernst Rohm’s brown shirted homosexual storm troopers before Hitler had them all mowed down during “the night of the long knives”.

          1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 11:54pm

            Oops. Goodwin alert.
            That last argument of anyone losing the plot.

  29. A poorly written (he means ‘afflicted’, not ‘inflicted’) rant with a good selection of non-sequiturs and strawmen.
    And, in my experience, straight homophobes are barely aware of the existence of Pride marches and festivals, let alone hostile to them. The hostility to them per se usually comes from closets and semi-closets who revel in such labels as ‘straight-acting’.

    1. Spanner1960 1 Jul 2012, 8:13am

      Straight homophobes may not be aware of Pride marches, but that is not the point. What the author is trying to say is the sort of dress, appearance and behaviour demonstrated at these events is viewed publicly by many other non-LGBT people and reinforces the stereotype that we are all like that, which is patently untrue.

      1. I know this is an old thread and I live In Toronto and have neverbeen to London Pride so I don’t know what its like, but do not a very wide variety of LGBTQ march in Pride in London? I assuming that’s the case since it is every Pride I’ve ever seen or been to. So if the London media is only showing one or two types of LGBTQ people and not the full diversity of the people marching in London Pride that’s their problem and they need to fix it so that if they’re going to report on Pride they must show the full range of diversity of LGBTQ people in London. What about a broadcasting or news media code conduct organization or process for ensuring news media provides fair and honest portrayals of minority groups like LGBTQ people? Is there some such organization In London where a complaint can be filed for consideration by a panel that reviews the code of conduct and can impose sanctions on offending news media? Much better to fight back than give in.

  30. The question for the writer to consider is this: If a bully picks on you for wearing a blue shirt, do you stop wearing it in an attempt to avoid bullying, thereby validating the bully’s opinion of blue shirts, or do you wear it in defiance and stand up for your right not to be bullied? One of them is cowardly and counter-productive, the other takes courage and pride in yourself.

    Pride is about not being ashamed of yourself, and refusing to validate the opinions of those who would prefer us all to hide away in shadows. No, we don’t all feel like dressing up for the occassion. But the point is we damn well could, and no-one’s disapproving frown will stop us.

    I think the writer needs to seriously reconsider his ideas about what Pride is about, and what his fear of non-conformity would lead to if it was shared by everyone.

    1. This is a fantastic question. I hope the writer of the article reads that and has the bravery to answer!

    2. Spanner1960 1 Jul 2012, 7:58am

      Straw man argument.
      That argument just doesn’t equate. Nobody is stopping people being flamboyant, but the rest of us that are not are tarred with the same brush.

      Like any stereotype, it may have its roots in truth, but is not the entire picture. It’s like people whose only encounter with Americans are the tourists over here that wear loud Hawaiian shirts and have cameras round their necks assumes that’s what all Americans are like. What they don’t realise is that 80% of Americans never leave their own country and are not like that at all. Nobody’s stopping anyone wearing loud shirts, but don’t presume people that do to be representative of the group.

      1. Tarred? I don’t consider myself “tarred” by association with people who make a point of defying the dictates of normative behaviour (which, by the way, is the only reason that those who are different are singled out in schools/work/life – a standard of conformity enforced like a benchmark for who gets abused and who doesn’t), making the point that not everyone is the same and expressing it as a good, happy thing to be celebrated. Those people do it for us all, and I’m grateful. As should you be. If you’re afraid that the fact that they are flamboyant *and* gay means other people will assume you’re like that because you’re gay too, then you acknowledge that the assumption that everyone is the same needs to be challenged. That is exactly what Pride is for. If you went along you could represent a different part of the non-statistically-normal world, which I’m afraid you do belong to if you are a homosexual, like it or not.

  31. Jim Fields Nashville tn 29 Jun 2012, 2:48pm

    i am a 65 year old gay man .. and pride is about the diversity we as a gblt community have .. just as the rainbow flag shows we are a people of “many” colors .. I find that those of us “who dont conform to what heterosexual society expects of us” we should stay hidden away .. heteros dont hide and they are allowed to show their “pride” in marrying, with tax benefits,
    with visitation rights when one partner is ill, with the right to bury their loved ones the way they want and the list goes on .. to deny one segment of our community the right to show who they are does a deserve to all of us .. when the plaque started it wasnt your normal “homosexuals” who stood up to be counted . they away from friends and lovers ..it was the “dykes” the “drag queens” the leather clubs” who ran to the forefront to give help and support
    I am a RN worked from the beginning with persons effected with the plaque
    and I know of what I type.. this article was offensive in so many ways .

    1. Jim Fields Nashville tn 29 Jun 2012, 2:54pm

      this should read I find that those of us “who dont conform to what heterosexual society expects of us” are expected to stay hidden away but to that I say no way .. we are who we are .. …. sorry if that line offened anyone or was misunderstood,, I need to reread and edit before I hit add a comment
      J

  32. It’s the fault of the media who seek out the one person dressed flamboyantly in the whole parade of people dressed normally in order to take a photo for their image. I don’t blame them as they want a colourful photo.

    1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:08am

      People who actually attend gay pride parades (which includes tens of thousands of straight allies) already know about our diversity, because they see us in all our variations and forms. Only those who just watch pride parade coverage on television news could possibly think that our usually covered varieties represent all of us.

    2. Spanner1960 1 Jul 2012, 8:07am

      I wouldn’t call it a “fault”.
      I am a professional photographer that has shot many Pride events, and you always look for the human factor, that’s what makes images interesting.
      Nevertheless, the sort of people I photograph are not typical of mainstream LGBT people, because they don’t tend to go on marches.

      1. Michael James 5 Jul 2012, 3:51pm

        That’s funny, I’ve shot many Pride events too- I covered Pride Scotia only last Saturday- and yet I’ve come to a completely different conclusion to you about them. Maybe we go to different types of Pride, or view them in a different way.

  33. This guy is a dimwit. He’s sing the same argument used to blame rape victims because of the way they dress.

    If i want to go out once a year and see friends i rarely get to see, support local businesses then i don’t have to put up with abuse as a trade-off.

    Does this author believe the same argument should be true of the million march and that should be abandoned too?

  34. What a vicious screed of victim-blaming femmephobia. You claim to stand for the “LGBT community” yet blame it’s more “flaming” members for all its ills. Don’t you realise drag queens were on the front line at Stonewall? Men like you have created scapegoats throughout gay history, and you really ought to learn it before blasting others in this way.

    You remind me of all the people telling me – in various ways, some more threatening than others – not to be affectionate with my girlfriend in public. Shame on you.

    Down with fawning capital-pleasing commercialism and the defensive class-interests of upper-middle class folk terrified of those declasse gender-variant people.

    Stonewall was a riot.

    1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:10am

      You tell them Rachel. Bravo!

    2. By femmephobia you mean misogyny ?

  35. Your argument seems to be ‘act n a heteronormative manner and we’ll get rights’ Topher they won’t even let us actually get married when we want it and the institution of marriage is about as heteronormative as it gets!

    I’m not straight. I’m not cis and I’m not going to act like I am to appease small minded people who think their way is the only right way to be LGBT. I don’t wear high heels but I love wearing nail varnish. Why shouldn’t a guy be able to wear a dress if he wants?

    Why should we have to be more like them why can’t they be more like us?! More importantly why can’t we all just get on with our own lives without trying to dictate to others how they should live there. Wear what you like, go where you like, do what you like, have kinky sex or don’t, have sex with as many or as few people as you like. As long as they way you are living your life makes you happy and you’re not infringing on anyone else rights what does it matter?

    If you don’t like pride then don’t go.

    1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:33am

      “If you don’t like pride then don’t go.”
      And I would say the large majority, including me, don’t.
      Unfortunately, those that do are the ones that publicly define what LGBT people really are, so when I tell someone I’m gay they immediately assume that I’m one of those that marches down the street half naked blowing a bloody whistle.

      1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:14am

        You’re an idiot. If you want your “type” of gay person to be “publicly defined” get off your as* and go out there and represent your part of our diversity and quite bitchin about those of us who do (go to pride parades). You are pathetic.

        1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 11:50pm

          I don’t want “my type” to be publicly defined. It already is, I am like most other people and don’t feel the urge to have to mince about in public parades to demonstrate how “different” I am, yet at the same time demand that we must all be treated the same.

          You can’t have your fairy cake and eat it, sunshine.

  36. GingerlyColors 29 Jun 2012, 3:19pm

    I suppose people could have the same opinion about Caribbean carnivals or Asian Melas. 50 years ago the concept of black and Asian people celebrating their culture and music on a British street was as alien as gay people celebrating their sexuality. Different social groups of people should be allowed to celebrate but what I do not understand is that why people who disagree with these things go out of the way to go along and be offended.

  37. I have never been brave enough to go on gay pride but I’m so proud of all the people that do! Keep going, guys! You are doing it for all of us! We would never have the civil rights if it weren’t for how brave you are.

  38. “The world is already waging a hateful war; don’t give it any more ammunition. ” – think you just have. I don’t go to Pride and this isn’t the argument, wrapped as it is in vitriol, against Pride I could support. Seems to me if you don’t like it you vote with your feet! Or attend an even that means something to you like http://172430notohatecrime.wordpress.com/

  39. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 3:36pm

    This is a pretty ourageous article, about a low desire by the person to try to force their own agenda onot everybody else, much like the people who say you shouldn’t be gay full stop. If they get irritated by a rainbow flag, high heels and camp they’ll get irritated by anything associated with Gay. You might as well attack moustaches and tight leather. Interesting the way camp is thrown in – most of the english population know what camp is, and are fond of it, and i say that as somebody who isn’t camp. This is just very low self serving journalism, in the style of the daily mail. I’m not going to apologize for what I am, and I suggest everybody else taked pride in themselves!

  40. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 3:45pm

    One other thing though – I do object to pride as a corporate thing, and a money making thing. It should be about the local gay community and showing pride in it – that’s the whole point though this writer and those in Blackpool don’t seem to know it. THere was an effort to start a choir here in Blackpool, but pride decided it was going to give no help at all. The person running it wanted for some reason to use a very expensive venue in the centre of town, meaning it would cost about £5 per person. For only £2 I could have joined my singing teachers choir, and get instruction as well! Being TS and having a baritone voice I can’t say I’m that keen on choirs anyway, since I always have to stand in the baritone section. Blackpool pride also had heterosexual singers, However despite, like any other up and coming singer being willing to do for free, they didn’t even say audition or well hear you – I have to go through the normal heterosexual channels for music. Not one bit of help from pride

  41. gattagiudecca 29 Jun 2012, 3:47pm

    This strikes me as an article that is deliberately trying to stir up lots of attention. It states he is a journalism student, so perhaps he is trying to make a name for himself and the best way to do that is to write something outrageous. A lot of bloggers use the same technique. A lot of the points he makes in the article, I’ve never heard of before. I’ve never had homophobes use the rainbow flag in a negative way towards me. And even if they did, that doesn’t mean that we must immediately stop using it. He should look at why the rainbow flag came about. When I was reading the article, I just couldn’t shake the feeling that he doesn’t actually believe any of what he is writing. He is simply trying to write something controversial to get his name known. Perhaps something he can show to future editors – “look, I can write whatever you want me to, from whatever angle you want, no matter how controversial”.

  42. All I can say is, I remember when I was young and stupid and thought I knew all there was to know about everything. Back then I bitched about the rainbow flag and how gender non-conformists were responsible for all the homophobia in the world. Thank goodness I was lucky enough to grow old enough and wise enough to realize how ignorant I was. I can only hope that young Mr. Gen is equally as lucky.

  43. What a miserable little sod. If he had been out of nappies and have had to fight for Pride perhapse he would value it more

  44. Bizarre. If the author had said “London Pride” and chosen his arguments a tad more carefully,he might have had a point. But he didn’t,and so he hasn’t. And besides, then he’d have written an altogether different article.

    I’m going to a Pride event this summerand i fully expect it to be positive, fun, a celebration of the LGBT community. Maybe even the LGBTQI one at that.

    But London has long stuck out like a sore thumb. Commercialised, politically factional, residually transphobic (which belief is not helped by the fairly out transphobia that topher expresses). It doesn’tsurprise me its in trouble…which is a shame, because we need a decent London Pride…just, maybe,not the present one.

    jane xx

  45. Not only is his ignorance and immaturity blatant (not to mention internalized homophobia), but he does a disservice to straight folk. Are all straights tie-wearing suits during the week and polo and khakis on the weekends? Here in the US, we have St. Patrick’s Day parades (talk about whiskey in the jar!), motorcycle club gatherings, NASCAR folk, football games, and many other “special interest” get-togethers. While I’m sure there are GLBT fans of all of these, they are mainly known for their straight following. They dress up, they drink to excess, and eat all kinds of funky foods. I can only hope that the author, with time and experience, sees that the world is made up of many pieces, not one monotone canvas.

  46. There is a worryingly high number of ‘homosexuals’ in this article.

    1. Just to clarify – ‘homosexual’ is the term of choice employed by organisations such as the Christian Institute.

  47. The Elephant in the Room is the high levels of addiction and alcohol/drug abuse that become v apparent during Pride season. Pride is about being damn proud of who you are and your sexuality. Necking your weight in booze and pills is not Pride, it’s self abuse.

    1. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 8:06pm

      Most carnivals tend to be a bit drunken and other stuff!

      1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:29am

        So that makes it OK then?

        1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:21am

          If its ok for straight carnivals, in what world is it not ok for us? You really do reveal your own homophobia.

          1. Spanner1960 1 Jul 2012, 8:04am

            Who said anything about gay or straight?
            Public drunkenness is unacceptable. Period.

            A typical lefty response I may add. Just because I don’t follow the “party line” and criticise some gay people, I am accused of homophobia. I am not at all homophobic, I just abhor narrow-minded little twats like you.

    2. Did you ever look at supporters of a soccermatch during European and Worldchampionships….

  48. Ultimately this article is rather silly but it has ignited an interesting debate. I would never consider myself ‘straight acting’ (neither would anyone who’s ever met me) but I no longer go to Pride. I just don’t feel comfortable in the Meat Rack on the street type atmosphere. However, I do think it is important for Pride to truly reflect the very diverse GLBT community, and this includes heels and queens and butch dykes as well as all the ‘normals’. I should go to at least represent myself. Maybe next year.

  49. Jason Feather 29 Jun 2012, 5:32pm

    Its true that gay pride has become a lot more about having fun and less of a statment and there’s nothing wrong with that at all.

    Intelligent people gay and straight know that stereotypes are wrong but if you fit into someone else’s preconceptions that’s their problem not yours, we don’t have to change they do!

    Having said that I’d love it if gay pride became a bit more political. There are gay men and women around the world being executed or imprisoned just because of their sexuality (my partner is from Malawi & would have been sent to jail for 14yrs if he hadn’t gained asylum here in UK) but I rarely if ever see any mention of this at pride events and I’ve nev been asked to sign a petition or become involved in helping to further gay rights

    Despite the progress we have made in the UK many gay men and women have become complacent about how lucky we are to be able to live relatively equal lives with our heterosexual brothers and sisters. Let’s change this if nothing else at Pride

  50. More anti-gay Christian black propaganda being spewed out in their war on gays using psychological warfare. Show your Pride my fellow LGBT people and do not listen to the anti-gay Christians who hate.

  51. Can you say “internalized homophobia?” I knew you could.

  52. Janet Lameck 29 Jun 2012, 6:17pm

    I am a Transgender person and I’m sick and tired of these sickos saying I’m homosexual just because I was born in the wrong body! I’m a GIRL, girls have sex with boys where is that homosexual?
    I am a paid member of Windsor PRIDE (Windsor, Ontario, CANADA) and we do more about the issue bullying people from all walks of life than anyone or other organization in the Essex County area.

    1. Another Hannah 29 Jun 2012, 8:09pm

      Umm, are there many organisations in the essex county area? Second I’m a bit puzzled as to what the relevance of this is to the article?

  53. gaykingdom 29 Jun 2012, 9:12pm

    We will go one further. The Rainbow Flag should be considered just as sacred as any other flag. Perhaps even more, since it represents the GLBT struggle, lasting a couple thousand years now. The American motto is, “from many, one” ours should be, “from one, we are many”. Hence the separate rainbow stripes, each unique and beautiful in their own right….as we all are.
    Drag Queens? Love’m! Biker Dykes? Love them too! Drunk you men, who get swishy? and Leather Daddies? God bless them all…. there is room in our tent for all…at tent fashioned from a rainbow.

    1. gaykingdom 29 Jun 2012, 9:16pm

      Sorry for the typos…should be “drunk YOUNG men” and “A tent”
      When I get passionate, proof reading suffers!

  54. Maybe this guy should take a look at supporters in a stadium during European and Worldchampionships soccer. Are these dressed up drunk people making soccer less accepted ? Will supporters half naked in make-up make the rest of the world want to deny rights to them ?

    1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:14am

      Actually, yes they do.
      They make all football supporters look like Neanderthal thugs.

  55. Totally agree with the article.

    That is why I have never supported the Sydney Mardi Gras for the same reason.

    I cannot relate to it all, let alone participate in it.

    Has no meaning at all to me. The gay identity and who we are no longer exists.

    Corporate sponsors and marketing has ruined it.

    It is about having pride, respect etc in one’s self, without having to exploit and lower yourself to the Euro / Pound / Dollar.

    We are worth so much more.

  56. Totally agree. For a long time I’ve realized how the São Paulo Gay Pride Parade here in my country, considered one of the largest gay pride parades in the world, has turned into a second carnival parade and doesn’t even hide anymore that it’s now basically a huge commercial event.

  57. This article is amateurish and poorly written. I am inclined to forgive the author’s shortcomings considering he is a student, however PN should more carefully scrutinize articles for content and quality before publishing them.

  58. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 8:12am

    The usual suspects rear up and accuse any gay criticism as either homophobic, or in this case, as the critic is gay, ‘self-loathing’, whatever that is.
    The trouble is those stereotypes continue to reinforce something that is nothing like the reality; A handful of extrovert vocal queens are publicly representing the majority of us that wouldn’t be seen dead mincing down the street in skimpy spandex and glitter – I personally loathe all that crap, and so do many other gay people I know, but the general straight public are the ones that see this and assume all LGBT people are like this, which is patently untrue.

    Many gay men are quiet, unassuming people, often in long term relationships that just wish to get on with their lives. Someone commented earlier that it’s their choice either way, and that is true, but it is unfair that the quiet respectable ones get branded the same as the loud and camp ones.

    1. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:29am

      Shut up. Quite bitchin, get off your butt and get out to Pride parades to represent your part of our diversity and quit grousing about the rest of us – you’re such a pathetic whiner!

      1. Spanner1960 30 Jun 2012, 11:46pm

        “My part of our diversity!!??”
        Please don’t try to rope me into your sordid troupe!
        I am just an ordinary guy that just happens to prefer other men. That’s it. End of. I don’t need to go mincing about waving flags and blowing whistles trying to demonstrate how fcking ‘special’ I am like you.

        That’s the whole point of “equality” – it means “the same”, just like the other 95% of regular, run of the mill, average people; or using bullsh|t descriptions like “heteronormative” to neo-Marxist discksplashes like yourself.

        1. Spanner1960

          Do you have to resort to insults to try to make your argument?

          1. Spanner1960 3 Jul 2012, 3:46pm

            Only when I get offensive remarks.

    2. That’s exactly why you need to be there! So that ALL sections of the community are represented. I’m in a long term relationship too and don’t “do” the scene anymore, but we’re going to show everyone that we’re here!

  59. Not only is this piece badly written but it’s also just absurd. Saying that gay people encourage homophobia because of their behaviour is like saying that women who wear revealing clothes are inviting sexual violence and rape. It is not our responsibility to monitor our behaviour to stop homophobia. It is always the homophobe’s responsibility to mitigate his own behaviour.

  60. david skinner 30 Jun 2012, 8:49am

    The truth is that the so called gay, LGBT, queer, pink..whatever, community have been brainwashed for the past forty years into believing the gay propoganda pumped out by the cultural marxists. The gay community have no idea that it is merely a pawn in the hands of political subversives.And when it has served its purpose, it will simply be put up against the wall and liquidated. Know the truth and the Truth will set you free from this terrible bondage.

    1. A swivel eyed conspiracy nut says what?

    2. David Myers 30 Jun 2012, 11:36am

      As opposed to that pumped out by the cultural fascists like yourself?

    3. The Truth is that you need your pills, David.

  61. The best part of Pride is seeing the diversity. The oaps, the police, the fire brigade, all alongside the drag queens and leather bears. These people DO exist, it its great they are represented here in all their glory! I am a teacher, and I have dragged up before, that doesn’t mean I’m not a boring person when I’m not doing it (I really am though!). Pride must remain a mixture of fun and politics. If you remove the fun, you remove the audience.

    My mother diddnt get the point of Pride, until I took her and she said “oh, I see, it’s like a brotherhood” which made me smile!

  62. This stinks of a self publicity stunt from a student journalist baying for the attention of the likes of the Sun and Daily Mail.
    I find the entire content offensive and promoting a notion that we are all right and so crawl back under our stones and don’t let society see that we are there.

  63. David Skinner 1 Jul 2012, 5:58pm

    So much for the homosexual movement being in the vanguard of liberation and freedom of speech. Pink News allows and encourages the most libellous, insulting , hateful and often obscene remarks against anyone daring to question gay theology and ideology, but when I attempt to post a truth it is immediately censored. What Pink News is terrified of is the Truth

    1. Oh david do shut up won’t you. Your comment is still perfectly available isn’t it? It’s just that you’re such a bigotted basket case that nobody likes what you have to say

    2. Nope. When you attempt to post a truth it somehow magically transforms into complete and utter BS between your head and the keyboard.
      BTW your hilarious attempts at truth are still there if you press “Show comment”. Please do keep them coming.
      Tricky to impress us with anything truthful when it alludes to speculative future events brought about by unspecified agents that only actually exist in your head.

    3. Jock S. Trap 1 Jul 2012, 7:10pm

      David… just as heterosexuals are not and should not be up for debate, nor also should the LGBTQI community.

      Only your chosen religious lifestyle chooses to debate who people are and show such disrespect. Somehow you feel superior but it just shows you up for being out of touch and completely uneducated.

      You so called ‘truth’ is nothing more than assumption not fact and appear discriminating in a way you would be horrified and fight it it was aim at you.

      The fact you treat life without honour, without respect shows you up for all you stand for. Clearly your mind is clouded by your own bigoted propaganda and therefore any judgement you give is misleading, incorrect and unable to give accurate facts to any part of life and those who live and contribute to it.

    4. “Pink News allows and encourages the most libellous, insulting , hateful and often obscene remark”

      Well, they tolerate your twisted bile, Skinner, so lucky for you they do.

  64. Ok, I can kind of see where he is coming from, there are quite a few drag queens, glamour and sparkle at Pride events and it is usually the loudest at the events that get noticed, usually the drag queens. Thing is though, that can be said for any major event, the loudest and/or rowdiest will get noticed. This guy is clearly missing the fact that there are more than just drag queens at a Pride event.
    I personally have only been to 3 events but at each event I have seen senior citizens silently supporting us, one in particular from his motorised scooter waving a rainbow flag, and lgbt couples showing their solidarity even when they come face to face with the usual crowd of homophobic religious people, waving their anti-gay banners and placards. Topher Gen needs to actually participate in Pride before he writes about it. Dont you just hate people who write about things they know nothing about?

  65. Keith Farrell 2 Jul 2012, 11:32am

    I stopped reading this rant halfway through.
    Yes the pride marches do not always celebrate the past, but they do draw attention to the fact that we are proud to be gay, when you consider that out of all the countries in the world, we are only welcome in 5%, we still have a long way to go to just get the very basic human right. Give us the same rights as you enjoy everywhere and there will be no need for things like pride marches, because we will all enjoy the same basic rights

  66. Polarised view much?

  67. David Skinner 3 Jul 2012, 7:55am

    J T S I have never heard that it requires a rooster and hen to make a chicken, being up for debate. Where did you hear that? But certainly two roosters don’t make chicken- that is beyond debate.
    Maybe you ought to come on down to the farm!

    1. Did it ever occur to you that maybe breeding chickens wasn’t the goal of all chickens?
      Maybe there are enough chickens already.
      Maybe other chickens already have the next generation of chickens covered and then some.
      Perhaps they’re all starting to run out of feed due to all the 7 billion chickens cluttering the battery farm up.
      Maybe those two cocks are a happy unit in themselves and don’t need a hen to make their lives complete.
      Nah you’re probably right, procreating is all chickens is good for.

  68. With 1.2 million outside my door last weekend, I saw a lot more that the stereotypes listed in the article. Yes, there are people who fit that description, but there were many more families, people of colour, various ages, various sizes/shapes… And for those who do fit that stereotype – why should they be forces to act more str8, as is implied in this article? Wouldn’t that be contrary to the reason for Pride in the first place? If people don’t feel they can be themselves (even if other don’t like it), then what’s the point?

  69. Michael James 5 Jul 2012, 1:53pm

    If Topher was complaining about highly commercialised events like London Pride, I might see where he’s coming from. However, none of what he’s talking about could apply to the lower-key but successful Pride Scotia, which took place last Saturday in Edinburgh, not a million miles from his doorstep.

    Although there were sponsors, (mainly the local venues) it was still primarily a charity and activist organised event. It was also inclusive. I remember being shocked the first time I went to London Pride and found that pavements on the route were fenced off, and you had to apply in advance to join a “walking group” if you wanted to take part in the march. However, in Edinburgh last Saturday, anyone could join the march, and thus it seemed more like a proper march, a grouping together of people of like mind. [contd…]

  70. Michael James 5 Jul 2012, 1:54pm

    […cont] Finally, and Topher might want to pay attention to this, the campaign for equal marriage was front and centre in Pride Scotia, from the speeches at the rally before the march, to the front-loading of signs supportive to equal marriage at the head of the march, to the reminders about the campaign on-stage at the entertainment. This approach, mainly thanks to the likes of Equality Network but also other groups, paid off in the media, with the campaign for marriage equality being the main take-away on most news coverage of the event.

    Thus Edinburgh (and hopefully Glasgow too, on the 14th July) had a successful campaigning march, but here’s the point- they didn’t need to throw the drag queens under the bus to achieve this. Indeed, many of the drag queens are also activists and campaigners, both in and out of drag. Who says that drag or effeminacy is incompatible with political campaigning? Certainly not the drag queens that that started the Stonewall riot. […]

  71. Michael James 5 Jul 2012, 1:55pm

    […Cont] Indeed I got an illustration of this on the train back home from Pride. It was late at night, and I was expecting everything to be quiet. Instead, two drag queens got on, and after charming most of the coach, proceeded to lead a singalong of the *whole coach*- disco, show tunes, you name it- all the way back to Glasgow.

    Now this should be the ultimate stereotype that does LGBT a disservice, judging by the amount of times it crops up in Topher’s article: drunken drag queens bawling Life Is a Cabaret Old Chum? You can’t more clichéd than that. Yet, judging by the smiles and “Best.Train Journey. Ever.” style declarations from an entire coach-load of people, I’d say these two have probably touched more lives in a positive way than Topher’s article.

  72. The author should visit Madrid Pride, in my experience the most inclusive celebration of ‘gay’ in the world. Young, old, straight, gay, families with children, pensioners – all celebrating diversity on the streets of Madrid with an incredible amount of Spanish noise and energy.

    The article is mis-guided, there is nothing wrong with Pride per se, there is a lot wrong with a disorganised, boring shuffle through the streets of London.

    Madrid Pride is the perfect blueprint for a modern pride celebration!

  73. Topher Gen, the journalism student author of this trash post is one more ignorant heterosexual that thinks because freedom of speech exists, his opinion must carry weigh with the target audience.

    My response to him: This is NOT your life; it is OUR life. Mind your own business. WE make OUR OWN decisions about what WE do with OUR lives! WE will NOT consult your ignorance before hand!

  74. I have never read so much bullcrap in one article only.

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