A well written rebuff to Gen Topher. Well done and thank you Nicolas Chinardet (aka zefrog).
Well said Nicolas. Some people just don’t get it.
Well said Nicolas, every pride march I’ve been to in the last 12-15 years has been very diverse and representative of the whole LGBT community, particularly recently where the armed forces, police, fire and ambulance services are also included as well as all the groups you mention.
I haven’t been to Pride for many years. In my view the events seem to have grown to exploit the “Pink Pound” largely. The march may not get the coverage it deserves in reflecting the diverse nature of the LGBT community. I feel Pride has lost it’s way. However I cannot agree with the views of this Mr Gen person. That wouldn’t be an argument I would make and to my mind does more harm then good. If he is interested in Gay Marriage equality then it seem his piece is more ammunition for those against this form of equality. You are 100% right live and let live, it’s about having a choice. I choose not to attend Pride, disagree with Mr Gen, but to wish those that do attend to have a happy and safe time.
The behaviour of the few is still potentially very damaging. For example those who choose to “drag up” perpetuate the negative stereotype that transgender and gay are synonymous. Those people are claiming an identity which is not their own, something which should not be accepted by the community. Pride should and does still stand for something but the way you celebrate it should never harm another member of the community.
There are straight people who cross dress, or “drag up”, for Pride too. Surely those who do cross dress should be free and able to do so should they not, regardless of their orientation?
Their orientation is not what i’m talking about here. I have several straight/bi friends who wish to go to pride just to cross-dress. What they are doing is associating cross-dressing with a mainly LGB event. At the end of the day they will take it off and will not have to live with the prejudice. They are not taking pride in their own identity but using someone else’s for fun
What a load of rubbish! How dare you deny them their cross-dressing identitiy. They can dress up any way, which and where they like! This is posssibly the most bigoted, not thought through drivel I’ve ever heard.
you clearly have misinterpretted my comments. I am not talking about people who regularly cross-dress but those who do it at pride as a one-off, for fun and have no intention of doing it again.
isn’t a carnival about having fun? The Irish don’t all dress in huge green hats and what have you on the other 364 days a year after St. Patricks. The Notting Hill folk don’t wear grass skirts and feathers to the office. Gay, straight or whatever, people dress up and have fun at a pride festival.
Apalling bigotry here trying to say that somebody elses freedom should be limited, because so and so doesn’t like and thinks it will reflect badly on them. Thanks for the reply here, and to Sarah I would say don’t be so damn selfish. If you dislike th eimage of pride then set up your own festival – I’m sure everybody will want to go see everybody looking very normal, listening to the same music as everybody else, and making the same points as everybody else! (not!). What’s really damaging pride is business, corporatism, and that these days pride seems to be about helping a few and their straight cronies rather than something to empower, and give opportunity to the whole community.
My “appauling bigotry” happens to stem from a vast quantity of hate crime experience because of this. I am not talking about limitation of freedom. You talk about “opportunity to the whole community” but want to make it acceptable to mock the identities of some of those in that community. How is it possible for me to take pride in my identity when it is portrayed as a bit of fun
Nobody is mocking your identity – that’s YOUR interpretation (and a bigoted one it is, that’s what I mean!). If your unhappy about hate crime perhaps you would do better to attack those responsible, rather than those who express something in THEIE personality and identity. You are not the only person in the world who deserves consideration. Never heard anything so selfish.
If it is in their personality then I count them as the same as me and welcome them with open arms. I do not however count anyone who puts on drag once to be trans(and neither does the law). The hate crime I talk of stems from this negative stereotype and so I am attacking the problem at its roots.
Sarah, I do think you have got the wrong end of the stick. You are assuming that cross dressing is a negative, damaging thing. I would be very happy for my straight friends to cross dress at Pride. Indeed I would see it as a gesture of support. Being Gay is lots of fun. Pride quite rightly reflects this.
I’m afraid Sarah, little good comes ever out of bitterness
For some closeted trans people and crossdressers, pride and halloween are the only opportunity to dress how they want. It’s worth remembering dressing up “ironically” sometimes isn’t all that ironic.
“Pride should and does still stand for something but the way you celebrate it should never harm another member of the community.”
The way “you” celebrate it?!?
If its nothing to do with you then why concern yourself so much about something that has no bearing to or on you? Or are you that desperate for attention?
Having attended Pride celebrations in a few Cities including San Francisco, Dublin, Belfast, Dublin I have loved them all. But like everything in life, things change, communities change, and the LGBT community has changed and its focus is different. Pride was, in the beginning about visibility, (we are here, we are queer etc) but nowadays we have all the visibility we want, on TV and in the press, and so maybe its time to do something different, something more inclusive ( so many LGBT people feel that Pride is not for them) and with more credibility. Pride has taken us this far and its been great, but many consider it to be tired, so lets do what this community does best and get creative and inventive instead of falling back on the old established way of doing things. Pride should be about being proud not just about being drunk and outrageous for a day.
I found reading both of these articles quite interesting, this year will be my first time attending the Pride Parade (Toronto). I’m not a big fan of parades but it’s really the experience i’m looking forward to.
The people who criticise men in drag (and I’m talking about drag queens, not trans ladies) as somehow letting the rest of us down are missing the point. They would do well to remember that the advances we’ve seen in equality for gay people own their roots to drag queens in the Stonewall riots. If that’s not enough, criticising someone for wearing drag is missing the point of what Pride is all about. It’s about Pride and freedom to be yourself. If you don’t want to wear drag, don’t, but if a 6 ft 16 stone bear wants to wear a pink tutu and carry a wand with a star on the end – we should be celebrating. Not that he wants to, but that he can.
I think the previous article was not particularly written, but this one hasn’t caught its sentiment either.
Nobody is saying you can’t dress up and be what you want to be, but just be aware that there are many others that don’t. You aren’t going to get many kids shouting “Look Mummy, there’s a homosexual man dressed in the conventional heteronormative attire over there, doesn’t he look non-stereotypical!”
You catch my drift.
Both articles are going to the defence instead of pointing out the issues that are true to a lot of LGBT people that do not fit a stereotype.
From what I have been hearing from many different sources suggests a lot of disatisfaction with Pride London for a whole raft of reasons. After Toiletgate a couple of years ago (trans people denied the use of toilets), Pride London were the only people not to apologise, complain that it is secretive and cliquey, that it doesn’t listen to the community, that it is generally inept, that it never admits when it makes a mistake (and there have been many), When the point is reached that its answer to everything is just to talk the event up and criticise the community for not getting behind it, then you know it is a dead man walking.
In this year of all years, with the Jubiliee, the Olympics and World Pride, it has failed disastrously where other countries succeed.
The answer is not, I believe, to support it. The answer is to start again from the ground up, with a new outfit…one that is by the community and for the community and doesn’t have the baggage that the current Pride Londo
last year at pride in vancouver, canada alot of straight people clapped when the police and military marched by but queer people mostly stood silent.
I must admit I don’t want to live like straight people. Never did. Never wanted to be normal.
That is why I hate marriage and families. It goes against everything about being and identifying as gay.
This is the future you all chose for yourselves. Just don’t expect us all to follow.
I am highlighting the contradiction and hypocrisy of the gay community.
You are GAY, but want to live a ‘STRAIGHT LIFESTYLE” and have all the conditions that go with it, including marriage.
Wake up to yourselves.
Anyone who writes like this of ‘the gay community’ has clearly not got it.
Some gay people want a life that can be seen as an ‘imitation’ of conventional family life, others don’t. It’s more than a little patronising to assume that all gay (or non-gay) people think and behave one way only.
Most of us never wanted to behave any other way. Never did.
We fought so hard for the right to be gay.
Only you lesbians want to imitate the Conventional family life.
But remember, it won’t ever happen without us men,
You won’t be able to have kids and we can deny you our sperm as you are single women and you have no legitimate right to our sperm.
So you won’t be able to ever imitate the conventional family.
“You won’t be able to have kids and we can deny you our sperm as you are single women and you have no legitimate right to our sperm.”
I doubt anyone would want to utilise genes with such an obvious risk of congenital mental health issues. Not everyone thinks being straight is “normal”, and by implication, being gay “abnormal”. Time to wake up in the 21st century.
We were all generally raised as “straight” children, so surely it follows that we have the same hopes and aspirations that we were bought up seeing around us. It’s not imitation at all. We’re no different!
As you say, “interesting”. What you like and don’t like about other people’s love lives is nothing more or less than “interesting”. It has no bearing on any arguments for or against marriage equality.
Nobody’s asking you to “follow”. Live, love, and let go of your anger. If you don’t want to get married, then don’t. Nobody’s going to force you to marry. Seriously. I promise.
I say pride ought to be precisely about tearing down the HETERO-NORMATIVE and CIS-NORMATIVE beliefs that oppress us. Not assimilation, but revolution.
What a load of neo-Marxist pseudo-intelectual psychobabble claptrap!
I heartily concur…
Good rebuttal !