Oh dear, did Craibe let the cat out of the bag and lead to a bit of panicky face saving?
You know – I don’t thank the bully just because the bully stops hitting us. Make it a gesture. Make it meaningful, or this is just PR, spin and BS and absolutely nothing of meaning. Craibe did not doubt or question his beliefs – And he supports it with their manual. Do people believe that the outcome of this will just be orders to officers to conceal their animus more thoroughly in future rather than ACTUALLY change?
Sally Army – put your money where your mouth is because I see nothing here but lip service.
I had not before heard of the Salvation Army. Having now made some researches, I understand it to be a Protestant church and charity.
It appears that on this occasion, a person with not much intelligence or intellectual rigour has found himself agreeing to what is, frankly, a preposterous suggestion by Western standards that gay individuals should be killed for being gay.
I have no doubt that there are many good people who work within the organisation and who make positive charitable activities. I would be amazed if all or even a majority of them agreed that gay people should be executed. To that extent, I doubt that this person has “let the cat out of the bag”.
This is not to downplay the severity of the original comments, which would be horrific if not so implausible and self-evidently ridiculous. But I doubt that most Western Christians or the Salvation Army believe that gay people should be executed. This was a concession of a slightly simplistic mind.
Forgive me, de Villiers, but where have you been, not to have heard of the Salvation Army?
I have never heard of it during my life in France. In the eight years that I have lived in London, no-one of my friends has been a part of it and I have known no-one involved in it.
Ça existe quand même depuis longtemps en France, bien que d’origine britannique. Voici ce que dit le Wiki français:
Le 28 février 1881, Catherine Booth (fille de William et Catherine), Adélaïde Cox et Florence Soper engagent l’œuvre de l’Armée du salut à Paris. Les statuts de l’Armée du salut sont déposés le 23 décembre 1901. Elle est connue pour ses soupes de nuit qu’elle distribue à Paris, Lyon ou Nice.
Elle est reconnue d’utilité publique en 1931.
Depuis le 11 avril 2000, l’Armée du salut s’incarne dans deux structures :
• Une congrégation, chargée de la mission spirituelle, membre de la Fédération protestante de France ;
• Une fondation, chargée de la mission sociale et reconnue d’utilité publique.
Depuis le 1er janvier 2009, elle forme un territoire salutiste unique avec la Belgique sous le commandement du colonel Massimo Paone7.
• 186 officiers
• 1 172 soldats
• 2 097 employés
• 39 postes d’évangélisation
• 61 établissements sociaux
Je n’en ai jamais entendu parler.
“Oops, so sorry one of our guys suggested you should all be put to death. Our bad.”
The Salvation Army is just another organisation I do not and never will support.
I agree – just like every other Army, the Salvation Army (masquerading as an organization that is geared to “Salvation”) is in fact, driven by and geared to maliciously identifying The Other as evil and dangerous to the maintenance of that army’s power and their claim to the Moral High-ground. (Compare this to my own country’s shameful history of Apartheid & that the USA has been at war since December 7th 1941.)
Too little AND too late!
Apology no worth squat unless the idiot has been sacked and or shot….
with a ball of his own shyte.
Agreed. If this person is such a disgrace for them let them show him the door…. publically.
Looks like the Damage Limitation Cavalry have arrived….yet…..
He STILL says we’re going to suffer spiritual death for our “sins”, therefore he is STILL casting judgement on us for just being who we were born to be. And he STILL doesn’t get the point!!
I’m so sick of this crap, seriously. Can’t these Righteous tossers be Raptured off elsewhere? Soon?
like mars for example!!!!!!
Even So, we would not give the salvation army a penny ,nor donate to the samaritans for their insistence of ‘praying away the gay’, These were terrible homophobic words designed to insult and and distress Gay people, this bully should be put before the law courts and repent for his behaviour.
apology…….. not nearly enough…. too late!!!!
Notice that the PUBLIC RELATIONS director responded and not the president. The entire purpose of Public Relations offices is to spin, spin, spin and convince people that the sun is the moon and that people didn’t say, or didn’t mean, what they said and meant.
Are there any practising LGBT Salvationists who read these pages?
I ask because this Major Andrew Craibe is obviously a literalist interpreter of Scripture; so why avoid alcohol?
[I have inferred from the original report that alcohol is a choice forbidden to believing Salvationists. Am I right?]
A) In the Gospels, the first of the reported miracles of Christ was turning water into wine at a wedding reception where they’d run out. So surely this literally should be interpreted as approval of the human use of alcohol?
B) Likewise, in the reports of Christ’s last Supper, “He took a cup of wine [……..] Do this in remembrance of me.” I think Salvationists choose not to do this. Why? For this, Christ’s instruction to His supporters, is followed ‘religiously’ by every other Christian denomination or sect that I’ve come across.
So much for Major Andrew Craibe’s literalist interpretations.
Are there any practising LGBT Salvationists who read these pages?
I ask because this Major Andrew Craibe seems to be a literalist interpreter of Scripture; so why avoid alcohol?
[I have inferred from the original report that alcohol is a choice forbidden to believing Salvationists. Am I right?]
Just another religious cult.
Why was ‘senior official’ not removed.
Goo Gone might work.
Absolutely not enough! This is PR cover up at the worst form. If they meant a real apology there should have been a proper debate not a quick fix statement post… At least a reevaluation of their book of salvation and definitly some sort disciplinary for the over zealous director..
I do not know Australian law but surely there must be sth somewhere about an organissation enticing hate, bullying minorities and preaching violence that should applied to these doctrines…
They talk of helping marginalised people but at the same time create margins themselves! Such colonial supremasy “white” “Christian” beliefs have no place if a world of equality, diversity and respect is to be achieved
Gay pop star Darren Hayes called for a boycott of the high-profile charity, a call backed by pro-gay lobbyists.
The Salvation Army responded by pointing out they helped some of Australia’s most marginalised and needy people, including gay and transgender ones.
Hayes tweeted to his 60,748 followers: “Important for gay people to know the true position of the Salvation Army when considering who to donate to. Sad.”
He said asking people to control their sexuality was like asking someone to change their eye colour.
Salvation Army spokesman Maj Bruce Harmer said most of Australia’s faith-based charities would be excluded from donations if judged on Hayes’ criteria
Maj Harmer said “The Salvation Army would suggest a more appropriate measure for people to use is to look at how an organisation treats and deals with members of the community who are marginalised, vulnerable, experiencing disadvantage or oppression”
He went on to say “The Salvation Army is one of the most compassionate
and non-discriminatory organisations in the way it works with people who are marginalised in our community, including many who are gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender.”
He said gay people could be officers of the church if they vowed to be celibate.
The same rule applied to unmarried heterosexuals.
The statement, which described homosexuality as “unacceptable” to God and that it should be “restrained” with willpower, was its current position.
Anna Brown, convener of the Victorian Gay & Lesbian Rights Lobby, said the charity had also opposed gay marriage at a House of Representatives inquiry.
“Actively campaigning against marriage equality is counter to the principles of compassion and humanity, and these are the very values that motivate most Australians to donate to the Salvation Army,” she said.
“It’s difficult to reconcile how an organisation seeking to alleviate social disadvantage can play a role in perpetuating views … founded in prejudice (that) cause significant
Elaine about 3 hours ago Report
harm to the health and wellbeing of gay, lesbian and transgender Australians and their families.”
Personally, I think it is entirely appropriate for people making a moral decision to donate to charity to consider the ethics of that charity. If the charity support the view that gay people should be killed – then the question must be asked if they are an ethical organisation to donate to.
I would argue the doctrine of the Salvation Army and its public statement of condoning the killing of gay people demonstrates it is far from a compassionate organisation.
I would argue that the Salvations Army approach of actively campaigning against LGBT rights and equality demonstrates the inhumanity and hatred of its motivations.
Scratch the surface and the pus oozes out.
I appreciate the apology but I do question what they use to train people to be involved with the Salvation Army.
Maybe they need to overhaul their training program so that they do not come across as bigoted and to release any confusion into what they stand for.
Until I see anyway commitment to changing I will not take them seriously and I suspect nor will others.
You appreciate the apology?
It’s PR bull and nothing more.
Quite… what I got from that apology was “We don’t actually endorse the death penalty for gays as such, but then they are still essentially wretched homo sinners”.
It’s a pretty half-arsed apology as apologies go.
This piece of damage control tried to airbrush out the ugliness in the Pauline Epistle, but their face-saving re-interpretation is not scripturally accurate.
Until Andrew Craibe is FIRED, this is all window-dressing. If he had said that slaves who dishoner their masters should be put to death because Leviticus says so, he would have been sacked. He said what he said because he could get away with it, without any repurcussions. I’ll never give any money to the Salvation Army. Oh wait, I stopped doing that years ago because they don’t give domestic partner benefits to same-gendered couples in the US
I appreciate the apology – but am cynical it is mere PR spin.
It lacks any meaning until they demonstrate by changing their rules, regulations and doctrine to not condemn LGBT people to death – and to not stand in the way of civil and human rights for LGBT people – they continue to hold these views. Is it any surprise that LGBT people do not trust them?
I do not think Hayes campaign to combat donations to the Salvation Army due to it being a severely homophobic organisation should be restricted to Australia. We should adopt a similar approach in the UK – indeed globally.
The apology is utterly meaningless.
How on earth could you appreciate something so blatantly fake and PR driven?
The Salvation Army does say that it has a “positive view of human sexuality” This is nice. But it is also their position that “Where a man and a woman love each other, sexual intimacy is understood as a gift of God to be enjoyed within the context of heterosexual marriage. However, in the Christian view, sexual intimacy is not essential to a healthy, full, and rich life. Apart from marriage, the scriptural standard is celibacy.” In other words: They’re cool with gays — as long as they never, ever have sex.
The Salvation Army says its services are “available to all who qualify, without regard to sexual orientation.” But this isn’t something that is carried out in practice. In some cases, LGBT people are denied services unless they renounce homosexuality and/or attend services “open to all who confess Christ as Savior and who accept and abide by The Salvation Army’s doctrine and discipline.” The Salvation Army also has a record of actively lobbying governments worldwide for anti-gay
•When New Zealand considered passage of the Homosexual Law Reform Act in 1986, the Salvation Army collected signatures in an attempt to get the legislation killed. The act decriminalized consensual sex between gay men. The measure passed over the charity’s objections.
•In the United Kingdom, the Salvation Army actively pushed passage of an amendment to the Local Government Act. The amendment stated that local authorities “shall not intentionally promote homosexuality or publish material with the intention of promoting homosexuality” or “promote the teaching in any maintained school of the acceptability of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship.” The law has since been repealed, but it led many schools and colleges to close LGBT student organizations out of fear they’d lose their government funding.
•In 2001, the organization tried to extract a resolution from the White House that they could ignore local non-discrimination laws that protected LGBT
people. While the commitment would have applied to all employees, the group claimed that it needed the resolution so it “did not have to ordain sexually active gay ministers and did not have to provide medical benefits to the same-sex partners of employees.” After lawmakers and civil rights activists revealed the Salvation Army’s active resistance to non-discrimination laws, the White House admitted the charity was seeking the exemptions.
•Also in 2001, the evangelical charity actively lobbied to change how the Bush administration would distribute over $24 billion in grants and tax deductions by urging the White House deny funding to any cities or states that included LGBT non-discrimination laws. Ari Fleischer, White House press secretary, issued a statement saying the administration was denying a “regulation sought by the church to protect the right of taxpayer-funded religious organizations to discriminate against homosexuals.”
•In 2004, the Salvation Army threatened to close all
their soup kitchens in New York City to protest the city’s decision to require all vendors and charities doing business with the city to adhere to all civil rights laws. The organization balked at having to treat gay employees equal to straight employees.
Sure, The Salvation Army do a lot of good work internationally and domestically. However, there are many organizations that also do good things, but it doesn’t make them justified in holding prejudiced beliefs or fighting to keep gay people from being treated equally. And there are plenty of charities that are willing to do good for people without supporting needless intolerance. The Salvation Army is not alone in providing help to those in need. But it is set apart by its choice to endorse bigotry.
I can not recall CentrePoint, Shelter, the Red Cross, Stonewall, etc endorsing either statements that condemn LGBT people to death or denying civil or human rights to LGBT people.
The Salvation Army should not receive any support
from LGBT people, those who support equality, those who seek to prevent calls to condemn people to death etc unless and until they change their stance and policy/doctrine that condemns LGBT people, they evidence this by supporting legislation to protect LGBT people and they deal with the odious Major Andrew Craibe formally and publically.
Too late for ‘Sorry’. I am afraid that the Sally Army have urinated on their French fried potatoes. They had better not come begging to me.
Solution a bandaid? Amputation would be better. Give him some of his own medicine. Cut the bastard off!
Spiritual death, my arse. Nowhere in the bible does it refer to that in Romans.
It’s not even an apology but has more to do with saving face and losing donations. Spread the word, the Sally Aremy is a hate group comparable to C4M and the CI.
That’s being a bit too kind ! A comparison with the Ku Klux Klan or the Westboro Baptist Church would be more accurate…
Craibe should be made to resign or be flung out the organisation.
I always knew there was a reason why I disliked that organisation and this terrible attempt is even more reason to dislike them!
It will take more than a lickspittle ‘apology’ to wipe this stain off the SA!!!
The apology has come a bit late. The damage has been done. The Salvation Army is just another anti-Christ institution and will certainly not get my support ever.
Damage has been done! I don’t think they have any idea how damaging these statements will be for them. The only appropriate response would be to eject this evil man from the organisation.
If Andrew Craibe has not been sacked from the Salvation Army then the Salvation Army are endorsing genocide.
The Salvation Army needs to be destroyed.
As they are a genocidal group who want to exterminate us then the normal rules of behaviour do not apply and violent reprisals against this genocidal organisation are both permissible and to be encouraged.
Feel free to contact Andrew Craib directly.
His email address is firstname.lastname@example.org
The email address of the Salvation Army’s PR lackey is:
They would love to hear your honest, uncensored feedback about their grotesque group
Do you think that they actually care what we think? To them we are sinners!
I’m not wasting my time contacting either of them.
Of course they don’t care what we think. But they need to care about what potentially may be the ouitcome of their support for genocide.
But they deserve to be frightened and it’s easy and possible to send a very threatening and scary email (while remaining inside the law)./
These f***ers need to get feedback
My reply to AndrewCraib:
Your statement against gays,no matter the latter spin, encourage violence against them. Are you not ashamed that what your stated policy for s/a will be used to justify violence against gays? I will remind you evil people do not think for themselves & if you say death to gays, they will believe you & use it to justify vile attacks & violence against them.You need to take responsibility yourself for stirring them into action. Better to believe whatever you believe, but keep your idiotic views to yourself.Its called acting responsibly & you owe this to your organization & to Christianity. If someone was espousing death to Jews,Catholics,blacks,whites or Salvation Army you would understand. Let God take care of judgements. You have been specifically called to do this by your religion.We don’t need hate spewed in the name of God & make no mistake it is hate when you call for death of gays or anyone.
Andrew Craib has a son who serves in a BAR.
Bit of a failure there? maybe he’s trying to tell papa something?.
Quote form Salvation Army resume page:…We have three children, Rebekah (24) a Teacher, Rachel (22) Youth Support Worker, Benjamin (19) Barista & Bar attendant. They are also part of activities with The Salvation Army (remaining in South Australia).
My letter to andrewcraib