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All same-sex unions are against Jewish Law, Chief Rabbi’s consultation response says

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  1. Fine. Then the faithful are perfectly welcome to not bloody have one.

    But the assumed wishes of unproven supernatural entities are meaningless in terms of the law of the land.

  2. Whilst I disagree with all he says, I’ll give him the smallest amount of credit of at least avoiding the hypocrisy of the other religions and saying he also opposes CPs. Still don’t make him right though

  3. Aren’t*civil* marriages proposed? Why are religious groupings involved in these consultations? Are they to be consulted on all proposed legislation?

    If religious views are so important shouldn’t we be considering banning the consumption of pork and alcohol?

    1. The reason that religous institutions are against civil marriage is because the LGBT lobby will then sue them under the ” equality” legislation to force them to hold marriages in their places of worship and thereby bless them.
      I know alot of gay people don’t agree with forcing churches to act against their will, but the leadership of the LGBT lobby groups have a different agenda.
      Another factor to be considered here is that the Government want to to take the spotlight off the economy and the wars in Iraq, Afganistan and Pakistan, so they get all the intellectuals to fight it out over Gay marriage. Its quite farcical actually.

      1. Article 9 will protect religious groups against this.

        Even the Law Society and leading counsel have pointed this out.

        There has never been a case of European courts or ECHR forcing a religious organisation to hold a relgiious ceremony against their will or religious beliefs.

        There is a civil alternative (and hopefully other religious bodies who will be able to exercise their religious freedom to hold marriage ceremonies for same sex couples – odd religious groups are keen to restrict the religious freedoms of groups who are keen to engage with same sex marriage).

        This is a lie by religious groups about courts forcing them to hold marriage – another deception in their rampant homophobia to prevent equality and civil rights for LGBT people.

      2. Jock S. Trap 19 Jun 2012, 10:29am

        Rubbish Ronnie and fact is you and religion knows it.

        Your just making excuses to spew your own bigotry and lay claim to marriage in some perverse way.

        Fact is NO church is going to be forced, however what gives those religions who don’t want marriage equally, the right to stop those more progressive religions that do? So much for religious freedom… it’s more like dictatorship.

        As for the ‘agenda’… Get real!!

      3. Jock S. Trap 19 Jun 2012, 10:30am

        As for your last paragraph… sorry but pathetic!

      4. Ffs, someone always trots out the ‘lgbt lobby leadership’ rubbish. Why didn’t you chuck in self elected as well, then our our eyes could glaze over completely.

        Get a life, Ronnie!

  4. Strange. Surely, unlike the Roman Catholics and the C of E, he is presumably under no illusion that his religion’s views are the deciding factor for the laws of our country.

  5. Like we care.

    1. Sister Mary Clarence 19 Jun 2012, 1:12am

      Absolutely!!

  6. Hands up anyone who gives a rat’s rear end!

    *scans around*

    No, nor do I.

  7. These filthy hostile anti-gay Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islam should all collapse-in upon themselves and return to the Middle East where they all originally sprung from and each disappear right back up it’s own fundament into oblivion, the best place for all three of them, all they do is spread primitive tribal warring, discord and misery.

  8. Gosh, it wasn’t so long ago that Jews weren’t allowed in swimming pools. How easily they forget the horrors of discrimination. Shame on you, Rabbi.

  9. Simple, those synagogues who agree with – or feel the need to comply with – the Chief Rabbis comments should not hold same sex marriages. Thats disappointing that they feel the need to isolate LGBT in this manner – but a choice they should make – for their own reasons.

    This should not have any impact on civil marriage – nor on other religious organisations (including other synagogues) who wish to exercise their religious freedom by celebrating the commitment, fidelty and love of same sex couples.

  10. Yet another major religion who is anti-gay, no surprise there! I wish they’d all just leave us alone, it’s not as though we’re harming anyone – while they, with their hatred, are.

  11. Can’t Jewish gay couples and lesbian couples just put up a magic wire round the area where they live so they can avoid Jewish religious law and get married anyway? There seem to be all sorts of ways for Jews to get round other Jewish religious restrictions, if you aren’t allowed to switch on a light you get some non-jewish sucker to do it for you instead …simple!

  12. Don Harrison 18 Jun 2012, 11:52pm

    Since ealy biblical times Marriage has continally changed.
    God blessed Amram and Jochebed forbidden relationship. and used their children to lead Israel out of Egypt and used Moses to right the first five books the the bible.

    In the Bible there were many Polygamous Marriages. Jacob married for women and had children by them all Genesis 29:28, 30:4,9. Gideon who was chosen by God to be Israel’s judge and deliver had many wiles who gave him 70 sons Judges 8:30 and also sired a son by his concubine.
    So sane sex marriage is just another change Rabbi

  13. Paddyswurds 19 Jun 2012, 12:07am

    More shyte from the Abrahamic cults. Isn’t it time they stayed the phuck out of our lives and bedrooms….I am just so up to here with these deluded assh0les that it makes me want to scream……

    1. You may actually be screaming by the time Cameron & Co pull their fingers out and actually bring marriage equality to a vote.
      An opportunity has been given to these moronic religious sects to defame gays in every conceivable way and to get their endlessly sadistic digs in at gay people by this extended consultation. The consultation will reveal nothing new about the oppositions views other than to fully expose the extreme self-interested bigotry of these groups and the utter disregard they have for gay people, our feelings and our rights, we already knew that.

  14. end of useless consultation… end of … end… yawnnn… 2012… 2013… 2014 … 2015 … then what? What is Theresa Cruela [Dis]May doing? What is Ms Featherstoned doing? Apart from their usual drip drip of useless hotter than air anouncements of support, we need to demand the equality documents to be ready and sent to parliament for a vote. No more useless excuses, no more delays. There has never been any excuse to start with. Point your fingers to Theresa, Lynne, Clegg and CaMoron, and no one else. Would anyone be willing to guess what will be their next useless move …

    1. I hope the vast majority will not be willing to make allowances the almost daily pseudo-religious clap trap unleashed by the useless consultation … that’s what is left from this lot in government… instead of just implementing the necessary laws (let’s pretend that is what they really want) these usurpers of power are simply allowing anti-gay discourse to take a role of legitimacy in the political debate. Will they announce the implementation of marriage equality by the end of 2012, or are they gonna invent some(useless)thing else to keep deceiving the most patient of gullibles?

      1. Sister Mary Clarence 19 Jun 2012, 1:15am

        Yeah Beberts like the bloody Labour Party did?

        How many years did they have to introduce equal marriage? Did the bother?

        1. If that is your best response? Are you gonna wait patiently until 2015 sweetheart? There are still more than a thousand days left. Here is a question for you sis: If Labour swims a whole distance against the current, how long should it take for the ConDemned to swim the same distance but now WITH THE HELP of a stronger current?

  15. Oh, you had to screw it all, isn’t it Chief Rabbi ? I was even praising the other rabbis’ decision of welcoming homosexuality and same-sex marriage in the other articles below, but you had to come here and screw it all !!

  16. The impression I’ve formed is that UK Judaism (even the conservative kind) for most part takes an ethical and accepting attitude toward same-sex relationships. Quite unlike mainstream Christianity and contemporary Islam.

    Jonathan Sacks and the United Synagogue is a deeply conservative Orthodox denomination and very much a minority. Sacks is also, not coincidentally, a dyed-in-the-wool Zionist.

  17. Kornelijus Norvidas 19 Jun 2012, 2:16am

    One of the most persecuted religions in history – against rights of the most persecuted social groups in the world. My name is Herodes and I approve this message.

  18. The logic is inconsistent. They respect all others, and do not discriminate, yet they seek to impose their definition of marriage on all others.

    From being a minority which was discriminated against in law, they have now become a minority which wishes to discriminate in law against others.

  19. This proposed same-sex marriage law will apply to just civil marriages. Why are all these religious bigots and hypocrites being consulted on this issue? This has nothing to do with them! It is from this religion’s hateful root system that two other misguided and bigoted religions have evolved – Christianity & Islam. The bigotry and hate have continued to infect the off-shoots of the Big Two – Bahia, Mormonism, Ahmadiyya, etc.

  20. Rabbi, you wear a black box (which looks like a hands free portable light I would use in a cave) strapped to your forehead went you pray. And I’m supposed to take you seriously?

    1. Surely that’s irrelevant? The Dalai Lama could be said to look like an elderly frat-boy dressed up for a toga party, that doesn’t alter the meaning of what he says (any more than that gowns and pointy hats and gilded crooks of bishops do).

      1. I think it’s very relevant. Many religious types get caught up in their own narrow self importance and traditions that they forget what the point of religion actually is – compassion and self improvement.

        1. Sorry, I disagree – many if not most clothes or costumes can seem absurd out of context (High Court judges, anyone?), ridiculing the accoutrements is missing the point IMO.

          As for the point of religion, I would suggest your very generous belief is not shared by many if not most people on the planet, who see religion as a type of social and cultural control and, at best, cohesion, requiring obedience. If there’s much about compassion and self-improvement in the 10 Commandments or even the Lord’s Prayer, I seem to have missed it.

          1. Spanner1960 22 Jun 2012, 9:21am

            I see both points,
            I don’t think ridiculing the costumes etc. helps, but equally, Michael is right, they are so absorbed in the whole tradition and all its trappings and suchlike, they forget what the whole thing is all about. Take a look at the churches, synagogues and mosques dripping with gold, imagery and expense.

            Jesus Christ (allegedly) had nothing but a few clothes, that is all he needed to teach the gospel and help others. Others should take a leaf out of his book.

  21. But mixed-fibre garments are prohibited by Jewish Law too, aren’t they? Are they similarly decried by this court?

  22. Now they’re asking for laws to protect them from the European Court of Human Rights?

    1. Article 9 will protect them

      I prefer legal advice from the Law Society than an religious group.

  23. Don’t forget that though he is called “the Chief Rabbi” he is only representative of the Orthodox Jews – a small group compared with the Liberals, Reformed and Conservative Jews. It is insulting to the rest of them that the British Government allows him to assume some kind of headship to speak for all Jews.

  24. A very interesting submission to the Government’s consultation. But perhaps worth noting that in England we follow English law and not Jewish law. In fact I don’t think they even practice Jewish law in Israel. Just as well really as under Jewish law I’m sure gay men and women would be put to death (if Leviticus is followed strictly).

    1. Religious cults pay lip service to the idea that secular law takes precedence over religious law.

      That’s a meaningless PR move though.

      Anyone who believes in the supremacy of a fictional godhead, clearly can’t be trusted to respect secular law.

      1. de Villiers 19 Jun 2012, 12:21pm

        David, that is absolutely incorrect. I, and many other French friends and citoyens believe in the existence of the divine but consider that the secularity of the Republic and the principle of the laïcité is one of the central pillars of the state. A belief in god does not lead one to turn back to an Ancien Régime or to overturn the Revolution.

        1. You are not a church leader though.

          Organised religiion and its leadership bellieves that their respective cult laws should be imposed on all of society.

          Look at this Sacks bigot or the catholic cult or cult of England leadership. They all clearly believe that their fictional beliefs have a place in our secular legal system.

        2. de Villiers 19 Jun 2012, 3:45pm

          It is wrong for the Church to involve itself in the politics secular of a country – but not all religious people want to make that.

          As with all organisations, it is those who want to make everything a cheese who shout the most strong. It is the same in every area of life.

  25. blah blah blah, hopeless delusions of relevance, blah blah blah…

  26. If you are an Orthodox Jew and take Torah seriously, and also claim to be against discrimination, you are consciously hypocritical. All the more so if you claim the right to influence the laws of a secular, ‘unclean’ gentile state.

  27. Jock S. Trap 19 Jun 2012, 10:24am

    Again they talk about things that have nothing to do with them… or at least most.

    Fine judge but you’re the one’s who have to live with yourself… I’m perfectly happy being who I am and not pretending.

    When will they learn that same sex couple getting married doesn’t affect them… how could it unless they plan to marry someone of the same sex.

    How does same sex couple marrying affect straight couple marrying, their own beliefs about it and their religion…. Fact it doesn’t.

    As usual it’s just a load of hot air to be spewed in the face of discrimination and the belief that all shouldn’t think for themselves but rather follow their rules and demands.

    It has to stop… and stop Now!

  28. Now it seems,as if we did’nt know, that all religious faiths are against equal marriage for all, the case is now well and truely made for the separation of state and church in every area of administrative authority. Let them get on with their protesting from every level. They cement together a brick by brick wall of division of their very own making….and the world will be a better place for it!

    1. you haven’t been paying attention if you think “all religious faiths are against equal marriage”.

      1. The religious cults that do support equality are very minor cults though.

        Let’s not distort facts – religious cults are overwhelmingly homophobic.

  29. BUT SO LONG AS YOU JEWS GET ALL THE RIGHTS YOU WANT – HYPERCRITE!

  30. This poisonous contribution shows clearly that Jonathan Sacks is a homophobic bigot who is adding fuel to the arguement that religion has no place in a modern society.

    And even worse this Sacks idiot has a vote in the House of Lords by virtue of his cult membership? Was he elected to the House of Lords? Of course not – we are not allowed to vote for who is in the Lords.

    The House of Lords is such an embarrassment – Britain needs a democratically elected upper house. Exactly how many cult leaders are in the Lords – the cult of England has several representatives no doubt. Does the catholic cult also have ‘lords’?

  31. Britain created a country for the Jews. Why don’t the ultra-orthodox all go and live there? They can then practise their religion in what is becoming an increasingly.intolerant state. They should not attempt to impose their bigoted views on secular and liberal Jews in this country.

    1. de Villiers 19 Jun 2012, 12:24pm

      Ethnic cleansing? Do you know how that sounds – that religious Jews should be rounded up and deported on the basis of religion or political belief?

      1. Come on, he never said they should be “rounded up and deported”, he just suggested that if our commitment to tolerance and equality offended them then there were plenty of other places they could go to get the kind of bigoted, discriminatory governance they favour.

        They wouldn’t, of course. That’s the thing about religious bigots – it’s not enough that they follow the horrible anti-human rules of their cult, everyone else must be made to as well.

      2. Seconded, and frankly I think that secular-minded Israelis already suffer enough from rabid rabbis and their friends.

  32. de Villiers 19 Jun 2012, 12:32pm

    From reading these posts and then making further researchings, it looks as though the Chief Rabbi is not the chef of all the Jews but only one denomination. The title is a bit misleading. He does not speak for the more liberal parties of the religion.

    Further, the population of Jews in England appears to be less than 250,000. Only some of those accept the Chief Rabbi. In this way, the Chief Rabbi represents a far smaller number of people than would at first seem.

    It would be unacceptable in France for the Catholic Church to interfere in the politics – it is not their domain. I am even more surprised that where there is a state religion, other religions try to involve themselves in the public laws over the state religion rather than seeing their activities as being reserved to the private space.

    So not only should it be not really for religions to comment on the public laws but in all case the Chief Rabbi represents a very small number of people and proportion of Jews.

  33. So the Chief rabbi says same sex marriage is bad but is happy to allow his irrational belief system to discriminate against women and allow genital mutilation of young boys.

  34. Rachel Haytread 19 Jun 2012, 3:00pm

    I am trying to imagine a world without religion. Wouldn’t it be bliss?

  35. Depressing but hardly surprising. Didn’t the former late Chief Rabbi, Lord Jacobovitz get into hot water a few years ago when he said he thought it would not be a sin if someone aborted their unborn child if tests could prove he/she was gay?

  36. GulliverUK 19 Jun 2012, 3:29pm

    Other Rabbis disagree with him, and I’m quite sure they’re far more learned that he is.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~ecorebbe/id18.html

    ^ as an example.

    Plus, let’s remember what Rowan Williams said in 1989.

    “in a church which accepts the legitimacy of contraception, the absolute condemnation of same-sex relations of intimacy must rely either on an abstract fundamentalist deployment of a number of very ambiguous texts, or on a problematic and non-scriptural theory about natural complementarity, applied narrowly and crudely to physical differentiation without regard to psychological structures.”

    http://www.igreens.org.uk/bodys_grace.htm

    and what John Sentamu said about religious Civil Partnerships on the Andrew Marr show:

    “I live in a liberal democracy and I want equality for everybody. I cannot say the Quakers shouldn’t do it.
    “Nor do I want somebody to tell me the Church of England must do it or the Roman Catholic Church must do it..”

  37. Spanner1960 19 Jun 2012, 9:05pm

    Nice to know that the allegedly (self-proclaimed) most persecuted people on Earth stand up for other minorities.

    What goes around, comes around.

    1. Love this quote:


      In a democratic society, the separation of Church and State is of fundamental importance: freedom of religion means the Church should not be obliged to recognise gay marriage; democracy means that if the public want gay marriage legitimised then it is the responsibility of the State to effect that. Since couples can have a perfectly valid legal marriage without any religious involvement at all there should be no conflict between these two imperatives.”

    2. Well I’ll be dammed, is there someone from PN working on the telegraph?

  38. Spanner1960 20 Jun 2012, 10:10am

    I wonder what (gay) Rabbi Lionel Blue has to say about this?

    The man is not only pragmatic and understanding, he is one of the few religious people I know of that genuinely speaks his mind.

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