Further proof, if any where needed, that religion is even more removed from modern society!
Fantastic to see great support in Scotland – this and a majority of MSPs is fantastic
When you try to use grotesque campaigning methods that lie, deceive and dehumanise others for theological reasons that are inhumane – it drives people further away from wishing to understand the church, let alone understanding it.
Clearly boguse and inhumane organisations such as the RC church, CI, C4M, Anglican Mainstream etc are a significant part of the reason people are disillusioned with the inhumanity and lies of certain aspects of the church.
It really can’t be long now before Holyrood introduces a bill. Come on Alex, what are you waiting for? Show Westminster how it’s done!! :-)
I know i hope so to. Alex Salmond is my local MSP so i hope he introduces a bill.
Brilliant so let Scotland lead the way for the UK and marriage Equality!!
I honestly don’t think that the SNP are worried about losing support over this for their referendum. What they’re worried about is losing Brian Souter’s money. It would be a shame if they suspended advancement on this issue until after the referendum. Either this is the right thing to do or it isn’t, it’s not the right thing to do so long as the timing is politically expedient.
I really think the SNP have come to the point where the vast majority of MSPs supoprt equal marriage, the vast majority of Scotland supports equal marriage and they realise they can not be seen to act in an inhumane manner on this against the will of the people. They would like to keeop Souters money – but I believe they will do the right thing, be on the right side of history and if Souter is such an ignorant man that he wishes to withdraw his cash (then it shows that his view of an indpendent Scotland is less important to him than his homophobia) I think the SNP will regretfully say that Souter is free to choose where to give his own money to – but that the SNP endorse, support and intend to ensure the reality of equality in Scotland
I hope you’re right but the referendum is Salmond’s legacy and I honestly don’t believe that he would dare to put a positive outcome at risk.
His other option of a legacy is to see SNP known as the party who put the fundamentalism of an individual funder before the equality of an entire segment of the population.
Salmond is not that brave or stupid.
Of course he could rely on Patrick Harvie of the Greens to introduce a private members bill and then just allow his party a free vote. That was the cunning way Roy Jenkins decriminalised homosexuality back in the1960s after all in such a way that the reform was introduced without having an impact othe labour vote.
Its an option – although I think Souter might still withdraw his funding then – but it might save SNP face from an apparently “difficult dilemma” which in reality is a simple choice between one individuals fundamentalism and civil rights for minority groups.
If the SNP don’t support marriage equality and bring forward the legislation, then they lose what little credibility they have left as a pro-gay equality party. They have NO excuse and even going down the Members Bill route would be a cowardly way out for the SNP.
We have to remember every political party has homophobic donors, even the Lib Dems, but it doesnt make a party homophobic. But i guess a party that has a large number of Homophobic donors could be regarded as serving in there interests.
Sir Tom Farmer of Kwik Fit also donates to the SNP – he’s a Catholic who has publicly spoken out against gay marriage. Also the SNP dropped their long-standing bus re-regulation policy immediately after Souter gave them £500,000 in 2007 so they’ve already shown a willingness to drop a policy to suit him. I don’t think they will this time, but you never know.
I guess you could say the same about the Tories. They have lots of homophobic donors. The SNP fight for independence for Scotland so i guess some people would donate to them to help fight for independence.
But the SNP (or any party) doesn’t need to accept money from anyone, it could refuse. This is my main argument about Souter’s money. In my opinion the SNP should have refused his money because even just accepting it looks bad.
Even if they don’t actively pursue homophobic policies to suit him, the fact is that they are happy to take money from a man who is openly homophobic, and extreme in his homophobia. Would they take money from someone who was openly racist?
But the party could choose to not follow the whims of a homophobic donor despite their funding – that is the challenge for the SNP – I hope they stick to human rights
Absoultely, Stu, but surely there is still a question to be asked over the party accepting money from someone who holds such abhorrent views in the first place, whether they pursue a political agenda to suit that donor or not.
After all, would the SNP (or indeed any party) have accepted money from someone who held extreme racist views and had organised a campaign to keep a racist law in place? I think we all the answer to that.
It was the SNP accepting Souter’s money in 2007 that made me, as a gay man, stop voting for them – which I’d done since I was 18 years old. That alone was too much for me.
My post above, in the 2nd paragraph, should have said “I think we all know the answer to that.”
Trust me the SNP will stick to Human Rights. The SNP are a center left party and are overall gay friendly apart but of course you get some homophobic people in every party. The SNP government with the help of the greens, enacted a strong hate crimes law protecting LGBT people from hate crime regarding sexual orenientation and gender identity. The party also voted in favor of repealing Section 28 and voted in favor of LGBT adoption and Civil Partnerships.
Yes, I also think the SNP as a party are generally speaking gay friendly and in favour of equality. It’s just that this hasn’t always come across from the leadership since the SNP has been in government. Look at their involvement with St. Margaret’s adoption agency, for example, or the fact Roseanna Cunningham was given a ministerial job after her “goes against 1000 years of nature’s design” statement, or the fact the SNP government knocked back the chance to bring in marriage equality during their first term, repeating 6 times that it wasn’t a priority, or their refusal to condemn Bill Walker’s homohobia when they didn’t tolerate his domestic violence.
I’m not saying they are actively homophobic, but they still need to address a few things like this.
Charlie, the Greens didn’t simply help the Scottish Government with the hate crimes legislation you mention, it was actually initiated by the Greens and I think it was a Member’s Bill introduced by Patrick Harvie, not even a government introduced Bill.
Also, I understand both Winnie & Fergus Ewing abstained during the vote to repeal Clause 2a (Section 28), so the it wasn’t a unanimous SNP vote to repeal it.
I’m not trying to have a go at you for supporting the SNP, but I’ve explained the reasons I’m so critical of the SNP and I think it’s fair to criticise them when necessary.
Surely that’s not an excuse – that other parties have homophobes, so there’s nothing wrong with the SNP having homophobes? All parties should strive to be the best, not just the same as the others.
I used to be a loyal SNP voter, since I was 18, and I was honestly shocked when they accepted Souter’s money in 2007, I thought they were better than that. Maybe some people can overlook that, and that’s up to them, but I couldn’t in good conscience continue to vote for them after that.
Since then, btw, I’ve voted Labour, Lib Dems, Scottish Socialist, Solidarity and Scottish Greens.
Oh, and I also voted Tory for the first time in my life at last month’s council elections, albeit as 9th choice!
Sorry i didnt relise my mistake with the hate crimes bill it was Mr Harvie that introduced it but he got a lot of cross party support for the bill. And Its ok, I dont like the the names mentioned either. To be honest they hold the party back. It is the leadership i support. I am really happy that the SNP are likely to put through equal marriage because they are taking a big gamble as Souter and other’s like him might refuse to donate to the party again. I am a big supporter of Nicola Sturgeon in particular as she has a very pro gay rights record and she does a good job as Health minister. If you look at the report made up about how MSP’s are likely to vote a lot of the MSP’s in favour are from the SNP, Labour, Lib Dem and Green with a lot of Tories against. But In a year’s time when im old enough to vote if someone like cunningham where on my ballot i wouldn’t vote for them in the constituency ballot!!!! but would rather vote SNP on the regional ballot instead.
But i will admit it has taken a long time for this consultation to come through.
Charlie, I used to be a very strong supporter of the SNP, especially when I was a teenager. I first voted for them in the ’97 general election when I was 18. I continued to vote for them religiously for 10 years until I was watching the news one night in 2007 and was gobsmacked to see they’d taken half a milion quid from Souter – and then promptly dropped their bus re-regulation policy. I honestly felt let down by the SNP and I’ve never been able to vote for them since.
I do agree that the party in general is not homophobic, but I find it frustrating that the membership don’t say anything about Souter’s money or Roseanna Cunningham, for example. Nicola Sturgeon, as you say, is supportive of gay equality, but she’s never spoken out against Souter’s money and she’s quite happy to sit next to Roseanna Cunningham in Cabinet. How can someone so supportive of gay rights stay quiet on these things? That’s all I’m asking.
Btw, Charlie, it’s really good to see someone of your age so interested in politics!
Thanks :D. Yes your right it was bad for the party to accept Souter’s money. As for what you were saying about Nicola Sturgeon is that i think she tries to be professional and accept that other members of the party may not see eye to eye with her views (such as Roseanna Cunningham.) But i think Miss Cunningham got a Junior Ministerial post to prevent her from complaining about being rejected from the cabinet after all her years serving. However i also dislike some of these more socially conservative members such as Cunningham and i wouldn’t vote for them!!!. Though it must be hard for more progressive folks such as Nicola to have to go to a cabinet meeting without speaking out.
You make some good points, Charlie. I forget that it’s easy for me to criticise when I’m not in the position of being a politician and having to deal with everything – of course they can’t please everyone. I tend to want it all when it comes to gay equality without comprise! I’m often very critical of the SNP and I admit to not always giving them credit when it’s due, although I’m trying to change that!
I think in terms of seeking progression and equality – Sturgeon will do the right thing. I think she struggles with some of the dinosaurs. Sometimes you have to play games in politics to get the right things. I think Stugeon knows which games she is prepared to play and which are lines in the sand.
Thanks :D, to be honest i was a bit worried that i came across a bit argumentative im sorry if i did. Yeah i can understand how you feel, i feel the same way about Tories, the only one i feel sorry for is Ruth Davidson with the fact that most of the MSP’s in her party will probably vote against allowing Miss Davidson to marry her partner when the Gay marriage vote comes up. I do hope that Nicola Sturgeon will one day become the SNP leader and first minister think she will be good for the job. Only time will tell.
Yes, Stu, you’re probably right. I just get annoyed when I see a politician appearing to give less than their all when it comes to gay equality without thinking what they’ve had to go through behind closed doors to get as far as they did.
I doubt I’d get very far in politics with my uncompromising attitude!
I know I’m very critical of the SNP when it comes to gay equality and I should give them credit when they do something right instead of managing to find fault!
In saying that, I do wish we’d see a bit more dissent in the SNP over things like Souter’s funding. It’s surprising that not a single MSP or MP has ever spoken out about it in 5 years – I can’t believe every single one of them is happy with it.
And as I said in another comment, I don’t believe the party is homophobic in general, but I still feel it’s not quite doing enough to deal with homophobic individuals within the party.
Charlie, I don’t think you were being argumentative – I was actually worried that I was doing the same! But this is nothing compared to some of the disagreements/debates people have on these Pink News threads!
You’re right about Ruth Davidson, I don’t know how she can sit in the Scottish Parliament as Conservative leader knowing half of her own MSPs have already said they’ll vote against marriage equality – and who knows how many more will join them. I’d have chucked the job in by now if I was her!
I don’t think people like Salmond and Sturgeon are homophobic, but I hate that they appear to sometimes tolerate homophobia (such as Souter’s money) when I’d rather they’d condemn it publicly. But then, I’m not trying to hold together a political party – they are!
I honestly believe they’ll decide to legislate for marriage equality and it won’t be long before gay people will legally allowed to get married in Scotland.
Agreed :D and when Gay marriage is passed, us LGBT people can say that we managed to overcome all the opposition that was thrown our way without resorting to mean tactics. :)
Thanks, PN, for your very good report. I should correct one aspect though: the poll was jointly commissioned from Ipsos Mori by the Equality Network, LGBT Youth Scotland, and Scottish Youth Parliament.
This poll shows that the people against marriage equality are in the minority – so using their own argument, we don’t need to care what they think!
Didn’t the story about the majority of MSPs supporting marriage equality (published last Sunday) say the Scot Gov were announcing their decision next week? Now it’s later this month. I know it’s not much longer, but exactly when will the Scot Gov let us know what’s happening? It keeps getting pushed back.
All we know is that Alex Salmond said they would announce sometime in June. So it should be in the next two weeks!
Yes, I know. I’m just really anxious to know if the Scot Gov are going ahead with it or not, and it just seems to be taking forever!
To be fair we can only really seriously criticise the SNP about failing to reach a conclusion if they slip behind their own established timetable.
Weren’t the results of the consultation originally due to be announced in March? I’m sure I read that somewhere. I know it was initially put back from March due to the large number of responses, but to be honest, the Scot Gov was always a bit vague about it, saying Spring then late Spring, and now we’re into Summer and the only date we know is sometime in June – surely they could have been a bit more specific than that? It gives the appearance that they were repeatedly putting off dealing with it, whether that’s true or not.
I keep hearing and reading rumours that the results will be announced next week.
I hope so, Stu! I’m going out of my mind waiting to hear their decision! I’m 99% sure they’ll go ahead with legislation, but there’s that 1% which just isn’t sure! I can’t wait to hear the Scot Gov’s announcement!
Just saw Tom of the EN and some spokesperson from Catholic Church on Sunday politics.
Had the cheek to say “well of course it would show that” without even the slightest hint of shame or irony.
Also good to know that teaching children that same sex relationships should be taught to children as something of value is such a horrible idea. Love thy neighbour indeed.
Catholics arguing for a policy of exclusion for one sector of society.
Equality network proposing inclusion for all.
Catholics asking for a law to protect them only from gay people (but no one else).
Therefore, even enquiring about marriage in church will result in creating criminal suspects out of all gay people (suspects finger printed, DNA taken but only if you are gay and enquiring about a religious marriage).
Passing such a law against gay people would give the police the power to arrest such gay people.
Does anyone else see how loony these catholic voices are sounding?
Every time they open their gobs they dig a bigger hole for themselves.
I only hear one loony right now ;)
The poll was simple and unbiased. Ipsos MORI advised on the question, which was whether people agreed or disagreed with the statement “Same-sex couples should have the right to get married”. About the clearest question you could use.
You can see full details on the Ipsos MORI website here:
More questions? Well, even Spanish Inquisition feel be powerless against it.
And what headline do the BBC go with for this story. Something positive, praising Scotland’s forward thinking approach to it’s LGBT citizens? Well have a look
sorry, I posted the same link just after you did. Was not attempting t hijack the thread. Sorry, mate!
Haha no need to say sorry. Done it myself plenty of times :)
I hope we all will complain to the BBC at such ‘biased’ journalism.
The BBC report of this story is a bloody disgrace! I can’t believe how they’ve twisted it around like this. The last time I was this angry at the BBC was their shocking coverage of the birth of Elton John’s son, and before that it was their “Should homosexuals be executed” online article/discussion. Hmm, I see a pattern emerging here.
As for the Catholic Church, they are nothing but a bunch of homophobes who get far more attention than they deserve. Do they not realise that’s it’s their attitude to gay people (and women, and birth control) that causes people to turn away from the church in droves (me included), and yet they still stick to their outdated “beliefs” even though it will be their own undoing. Can’t come quick enough if you ask me.
The BBC reporting of this story is just appalling!
On the bright side, it does demonstrate clearly that:
a) the Catholic Media Office is losing the argument and so has resorted to barrel bottom scraping; and
b) the Catholic Media Office doesn’t care who they insult – do they really think Ipsos MORI’s survey respondents are too stupid to understand “Same-sex couples should have the right to get married” and were somehow bamboozled by the word ‘right’?
The reason an overwhelming majority said they agreed with the statement “Same-sex couples should have the right to get married” is that they think that same-sex couples should be able to get married. Simples!
Agree with you, but the BBC is really getting beyond a joke in its willingness to kiss these bigots on the pooh chute.
The BBC’s clear bias was very evident the other day when the CoE submitted their consultation.That story was on their main political page for about a day and a half and this
disappeared after a few hours, even though it came after the CoE story. It’s shocking how clear their bias against SSM is
Incidentlly, if anyone wants to complain to the BBC about their reporting of this, please do. It won’t be effective for the Equality Network to do it, for obvious reasons.
As have I
I have complained, but I think if the Equality Network also complained it would add weight to the other complaints.
Wrong story I realise but breaking news that Hollande has a majority in the parliamentary election in France – looks like France might well get equal marriage very soon, possibly before England, Wales or Scotland?
Yes, indeed. 314 ouf of 577 seats which means it doesn’t need other parties to vote with them. They have a clear mandate and will probably enact equal marriage this year or early in 2012 at the latest. Let’s hope that happens.
If France and Scotland do it soon, this will only push the Tories further into a corner. Let’s hope it brings those awful backbenchers to their senses or those on the fence that opposing it will be an exercise in futility. The writing is on the wall for them and they’d better take note. It’s coming and they’d better get used to it. I wonder what the impact will be in Westminster if Scotland legalises it hopefully this year?. I expect the opposition to become even more vociferous as the inevitable unfolds before them.
Focus about it on BBC – not the poll itself, but – position of catholic church, that its not correct. Well, it seems, we one more catholic broadcaster in UK.
I was speaking on another thread about a week ago, about how constituency MSP once told me that she was in favour of marriage equality and would vote for it, but in an e-mail last week told me she was undecided.
I asked her to clarify her position and I got an e-mail back today.
She said that when she first wrote to me, she expressed her views as they were at the time, but since then she has considered the various matters raised and now feels that she requires further time for reflection and awaits the outcome of the consultation.
I find this very worrying that an MSP can go from being strongly in favour to now being undecided – exactly what various matters raised have made her change her mind? If you ask me, it’s the worry of losing her seat. No other arguments could make someone with liberal views backtrack like this.
I hope that this is an isolated incident and no other MSPs will do this. I’m very disappointed in my MSP for not sticking to her beliefs.
Its one MSP not to vote for next time.
Its going to happen, BennieM
Equality in marriage will come to Scotland – the Scottish people want it.
The SNP believe in patriotism – and that involves treating their nation fairly, respecting the will of the people and standing up to those who seek to impose qualities that the majority do not share – like Cardinal O Brien.
Yes, I think you’re very likely correct about it, Stu – it will happen. My imagination is just running away with itself and imagining half the MSPs in the Scottish Parliament back-trakcing like this! But I realise that won’t happen.
I’m not so sure about the SNP standing up to the Catholic Church, thugh, as they’ve shown on at least 2 occasions since coming into government that they are actually willing to pander to the Catholic Church – over St. Maragret’s adoption agency and then the cervical cancer vaccinations in 2008 when the Catholic Church got their knickers in a twist over the safe sex information school girls would be given with their vaccination, and demanded removal of any mention of condoms. The SNP government not only capitulated, they used the catholic approved information in ALL Scottish schools, not just catholic schools.
On marriage equality, though, I think you’re probably right.
So I can be forgiven for being a tiny wee bit worried.