Well done guys. I’m sure Mr Mugabe and religious leaders in Ethopia will welcome your brave stance against the pink peril.
And yet not one of these religious cults has provided a mechanism by which gay marriage will harm anyone.
Provide a mechanism, and lets peer review it, please.. no? Thought not.
Lol what a bunch of idiots, they have already said they are only changing the CIVIL UNION definitions. Church of Wales would clearly come under the OTHER religious building category – not every single religion would be mentioned.
Is this what the Archbishop of Wales calls welcoming LGBT into the church?
I do not find this stance in the slightest bit welcoming – in fact I feel like they are slamming the door in any LGBT’s persons face and perceiving LGBT people as inferior.
In any event, there is no need to seek “special treatment” as the government plan is not to permit churches to hold same sex marriages!
Sounds like a deliberately provocative comment, that is both unnecessary and irrelevent, by the CoW to demonise and stigmatise LGBT people.
If this is loving their neighbour – I would hate to see what they do to their enemies.
If this is making people feel welcome, I would hate to see what they do with people they seek to exclude!
I am beginning to see the Churches viewpoint in all this.
You state “the government plan is not to permit churches to hold same sex marriages”
However, should somebody wish to then complain that this is unfair (which is a very contentious point) – they could take this matter to the European Courts, which could then possibly overturn any of Cameron’s plans.
This would then force churches to accept offering same-sex weddings.
I am no supporter of the church, but even less of the EU and the ECHR, and I get the feeling they could end up between a rock and a hard place.
Unless the government can guarantee that they will not kowtow to Europe, I am very worried that once civil same-sex marriages are available that this could then open up a new can worms, and one which none of us could do anything about.
I think in understanding why the Churches position on potential legal challenge to marriage is false and manipulative it is worth considering three issues:
i) Advice from leading counsel to Liberty which states:
“The protection afforded by Article 9 to religious organisations is strong…I consider that requiring a faith group or a member of its clergy to conduct same-sex marriages contrary to its doctrine or the religious convictions of its members would violate Article 9. Any challenge brought on human rights grounds seeking to establish a same-sex couple’s right to marry in church would inevitably fail for that reason. In balancing the rights of a same-sex couple and a religious organisation’s rights under Article 9 (in particular, in relation to a matter such as marriage, so closely touching upon a religious organisation’s beliefs) the courts would be bound to give priority to the religious organisation’s Article 9 rights.”
ii) The Austrian case they quote in the ECHR had no
connection to religious organisations and was not a case for connection to a religious organisation, thus is a facetious and fatuous attempt to link to a matter that has no connection.
iii) There has never been a case before the European courts or ECHR which has forced any religious organisation to carry out any legal or religious ceremony against its belief structure. Indeed, any attempt has been struck out immediately due to article 9.
Well, I hope you right on this one, because if it were to be forced through, we would have a war on our hands, and be made to look the bad guys because this could be seen to have been our ultimate goal in the first place, and we have made the Church appear persecuted. This will not do LGBT people any favours whatsoever and make our fight for equality appear selfish and hollow.
Seems the Law Society agree with me.
They are normally pretty reputable in terms of understanding the law and potential legal consequences!
“It is not at all clear in what ways same-sex marriage will be different in substance from existing arrangements for civil partnerships.”
If they are the same then the only possible reason for maintaining a separate institution for a certain class of people has to be one of discrimination.
“seeking exemptions from being forced to conduct wedding ceremonies for gay couples.”
Why are they seeking an exemption from something that isn’t happening and won’t happen? What sad drama queens!
How empty their religion is and how empty their lives must be.
You know what? They should bring in a law to stop gay people being married in churches. Then let a church that does want to marry a gay couple do so and let them arrest the vicar, minister, priest, whoever it is. Then drag the government to the European Court of Human Rights. I know who’ll win hands down – and it won’t be any religious institution or the government.
since there is a thing called “civil marriage”, why don’t they simply withdraw the ability of ANY religion to perform a legally binding ceremony?
You want to get married in a Church? Go ahead. You want it to have any sort of legal validity? You ALSO have to have a civil wedding.
In this way, the religious wedding would be everything those hateful churches require of it.. and it would be as it should be: symbolic.
So freaking what?
In Canada there has been marriage equality for years. No Catholic church/priest/diocese has EVER been taken to task, sued, attacked, assaulted, anything, for not doing a same-sex marriage.
Do they REALLY think that a gay couple would take them to court to FORCE them to perform something so intimate and profound as a wedding ceremony?
Come on, what couple – gay OR straight! – would want someone performing their marriage ceremony against their will?
My husband and I were married in the United Church of Canada, the 3rd largest denomination in Canada (it is the fusion of the Methodist Church of Canada, the Congregational Union, and 70% of the Presbyterian Church of Canada).
Who needs hateful, un-Christian churches like the Catholics and all who emulate their hateful ways, when there ARE denominations of true Christianity who are more than happy to accept LGBT people into their open arms.
“It gets Better” – unless you’re a member of the the Church of England, Scotland, Wales, or Rome.
I ask the Church of Wales, the Church of England and ANY other church to give just ONE example of where they were EVER forced by the government to marry ANY two people they didn’t want to.
It’s the CHURCH who has forced people into marriages against their will.
That’s the problem: It won’t be the government’s decision, it will be the European Courts. That’s what happens when you sell your soul to the devil.
The sooner we get the hell out of Europe, the better.
An interesting article
Re The Church of Wales:
The Church of England’s candid admission that it opposes gay marriage laws because the European court of human rights might well rule that the church’s exemption from marrying same-sex couples undermines human rights tells us all we need to know. We are grateful for the clarification.
Professor Rebecca Boden, Professor Debbie Epstein (civil partners)
yep, in other words,…we want exemmption from the law cos we know we are in the wrong
I have read the CofW statement and I must say that it is the most moderate statement from any church so far. There is no scaremongering, and unlike other churches they acknowledge there are many different views on the subject among their members. They also make a clear statement supporting faithful, committed relationships and families of any sort. They then go on to express confusion as to the differences, or lack thereof between CPs and Civil Marriages. They are also the only church to say that denying heterosexuals civil partnerships is unfair.
The message of the statement is that they want the option to ‘opt out’ and don’t want to be forced to marry same sex couples. This is a shame, indeed, but the CofW must be commended for their lack of hyperbole and scaremongering in their statement. While it is not outright support for same sex marriage, they acknowledge the need for more discussion and they word their statement far more calmly than others.
We’ve had a gut full of discussion already. Discussion is over. They’re wrong.
I agree. Personally, I feel CP’s should be scrapped entirely, civil marriages available to everybody, those already in CP’s be automatically upgraded to marriages (at no cost) and any religious establishments given the option to opt out, should they choose to. How much simpler can it be? There is then no ambiguity or confusion, and everybody knows where they stand.
This is a cut and paste of a comment left on the Northern Ireland story yesterday…with obvious appropriate changes….”Sad that Britain lags so far behind other nations who acknowledge (and to some extent try to engage appropriately and effectively with) issues of equality, fairness and integrity for all regardless of orientation, race, age, disability, gender, religion etc. ” it would seem that everything isn’t as cut and dried as some who posted this rubbish on the irish story would like to think. Britain is just as regressive and backward as any…and I suspect there will be some backpeddaling from the Tories soon.
This article makes me ashamed that I am Welsh but proud that I am an Atheist.
The CoW doesn’t exactly speak for the entire Welsh nation does it just as the Anglican church in England doesn’t speak for the entire country. Remember, religious denominations consist of minorities of congregants. The majority of UK citizens do NOT worship. We outnumber them so their rants are meaningless, an exercise in futility.
The Anglican Church is our state religion and has seats in the House of Lords so I don’t agree.
I see no point in the Church of Wales or England having to make these ridiculous statements. The consultation quite clearly indicated in no uncertain terms that religious denominations would be exempt since this is not about religious marriage. It would have no bearing on their compliance with equality laws. It’s more about making noise against equal marriage than anything else, a desperate plea from churches that are on a swift decline. They know they’re losing power as every day passes towards full equality.
I’m seeing the good news in the bad: “The Church in Wales wants exemption from conducting gay wedding ceremonies” because they know it’s coming. This sounds like a mercy plea from a Church that knows it’s lost.
Yes, Archbishop of Wales is in favor of gay marriage. And, yes, subordination is essential in the pyramid of Christian Church. Well, brothers in faith, its time to conclusions…
P.S. I adore this picture!