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Glasgow: Muslim leaders offer ‘no compromise’ equal marriage opposition

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  1. “A group of Muslim leaders in Scotland has said marriage equality would be an “attack” on the faith”

    How exactly? Why do these people not actually stop and read the proposals which are for *civil* marriage, with no presumption that religions will have to accommodate equal marriage in any way.

    Silly people.

    1. Their religion makes terrorist who fly air planes into buildings to kill thousands of innocent people why should we listen to them? Of course then there is the Christian terrorist who kills innocent children like the Norway Gunman. It seems they are almost working together now to attack gays when they need to clean their own house first. Then again they could be doing it to take the attention off of the fact that they have crazy religious terrorist killing innocent people around the world.

    2. theGentleWarrior 25 Apr 2012, 8:39pm

      Yes, yes Neil, silly people, but shortsighted Neil,

      One day we shall have to tackle the homophobia within Christian, Muslim, Jewish communities and so on

      When I have the right to civil marriage (and I proudly declare I have at State level here is Massachusetts, but I want it at Federal level), I’ll then be fighting for my to marry in Church.

      Yes members of the church have turned their back on me, but I have not turned my back on church and more importantly my faith. I realize many of you, like me, were hurt by your church but that doesn’t mean we all have to leave and jump on the atheist ban wagon.

      fear, hatred and homophobia have no place anywhere in civil or religious life.

      Now I’m going to refer you to two great men, one an atheist & one religious who both make the point better I,

      Bishop Gene With Ian McKellen
      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7504003.stm

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/7504077.stm

      here is an extract
      “SIR IAN MCKELLEN: Well as an atheist I, I, it would be tempting to say let the church get on with its internal arguments. But it spreads beyond that. And when the, when the Christian registrar in Islington this week, having refused to witness the civil partnership between two gay men and was sacked and then reinstated by the tribunal we see that there are ramifications.

      Just looking at it from the outside, the church thinks it’s got a particular problem with some articles, perhaps not of faith but of, written in the Bible that they refer to. And I can remember the armed forces not that long ago saying they had a particular problem – it was all to do with discipline. Well it’s just been discovered there is no discipline problems when you let gay people into the military. And schools too. Well we’ve got a particular problem.

      The particular problem they’ve all got and share is homophobia. And having it they root around in the Bible to discover the very few passages that seem to be relevant. But people like the Bishop, like the Quakers, like many people I marched with in Gay Pride last week, gay Christians, gay Jews, gay Muslims are at ease with their faith and their position in society. And so the argument is one we have to .. “

  2. Not unexpected.

    This country is not a theocracy and religion (of whatever flavour) has NO right to interfere in political processes.

    We do not have sharia law (whether of Islamic formation or Christian variance) in the UK and nor should we ever.

    Its outrageous and inappropriate that the leaders of any religion should attempt to interfere with democratic approaches in such a grotesque and ignorant manner.

    1. Paddyswurds 18 Apr 2012, 8:22pm

      I find it hard to believe that the Government in the space age can’t put an end to this sort of political interference from these bronze age priests?

    2. Technically the United Kingdom actually is a theocracy. Our ruler is the Queen, who is head of the church. This is true, even though I don’t like it and I doubt you do. I like the Queen, but I would like a separation of church and state.

      1. It fits one technical definition of theocracy but we are not one in reality.

        I would like a separation of church and state though!

        1. I agree Yves

          A separation of church and state is desireable.

          No religion should have control over civil matters.

          For me this would mean removing the Queen as supreme governor of the CoE, removing the Spiritual Lords – as a good starting point.

          I also agree that whilst we might meet the technical definition of theocracy (head of state also being the leader of a religion) the reality is that we are not a theocracy and the monarch has never made decisions to overrule the democratic will of the nation on religious grounds. I see no reason this should happen in the future – but equally, it would be beneficial to ensure that there was no such opportunity for influence.

          1. Paddyswurds 19 Apr 2012, 12:45pm

            @Stu..
            …don’t forget that the USA has or is supposed to have separation of church and state, yet their money says in god we trust religion, especially fundi xtiaqn religion has huge influence even to a point of demanding that creation be taught in science class as a viable alternative to Evolution. This is very true of southern states below the Mason Dixie line and particularly true of bronze age Texas…………

          2. @Paddyswurds

            True. Have to start somewhere though – and the defender of the faith issues and Spiritual Lords would be a great place to start.

      2. de Villiers 19 Apr 2012, 10:33am

        No Dromio. Technically, the UK is a constitutional monarchy.

      3. de Villiers 19 Apr 2012, 10:34am

        The separation of Church and State is not enough. Look at America and how religious is the political society. What is required is the secularity – positive secularity in the public space.

  3. Perhaps now is the time to decide if we live in a de facto theocracy or not. This issue could have ramifications way beyond same sex marriage.

    There is nor reason really for any religion to agree, disagree, or be indifferent as civil marriage is being sought. Their opposition suggests that they want to influence civil law.? It would be a dangerous thin edge of the wedge if politicians abdicate responsibility on this issue.

    1. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 6:32pm

      In Scotland the proposals are for civil s-s marriage, humanist s-s marriage and religious s-s marriage by those religions that want to. Your point stands though – why should some religions be able to force discrimination on the civil law and on other religions. The Scottish Govt’s decision in a month or two will show whether their aspiration for Scotland is that of a modern democracy or something else.

  4. Robert in S. Kensington 18 Apr 2012, 6:18pm

    “A family is a man and a woman and children. If the government turns a family into a man and a man or a woman and a woman with no procreative faculties, what would become of our society, our civilisation?”

    Has he heard of infertile hetero couples or those who choose not to procreate? So, I challenge the Imams all across the UK to provide the evidence given that 10 countries already have legalised equal civil marriage. Holland for eleven years already and where are these cases of polygamy, incestuous relationships and the end of civilisation occurred? Do tell us.

    This is yet another reason why I support the abolition of an unelected House of Lords and the disestablishment of state religion which would put an end to religious interference in the political process and civil issues. By all means have an Upper House but at least guarantee it is elected with no life or hereditary peerages and a limitation in the number of times they can serve.

    1. Mumbo Jumbo 18 Apr 2012, 8:55pm

      “A family is a man and a woman and children. If the government turns a family into a man and a man or a woman and a woman with no procreative faculties, what would become of our society, our civilisation?”

      Clearly we would all start doing truly evil deeds like flying aeroplanes into tall buildings, blowing ourselves up on public transport and cutting the clitoris out of any passing woman……oh, wait…….

    2. That kind of logic dictates that when same sex marriage is introduced then ALL men will marry other men and ALL women will marry other women and there will be no one to make babies!! Like all of a sudden heterosexuality will dissapear!!! (if only)

  5. “A family is a man and a woman and children.

    Oh, they’ve changed their tune – I thought for them it’s ‘a man and several women and children’.

    If the government turns a family into a man and a man or a woman and a woman with no procreative faculties, what would become of our society, our civilisation?

    They seem not to have noticed that over- rather than under-population is the problem these days.

  6. They recommend voters do not back candidates in the council elections who support marriage equality. Good luck getting a candidate to actually tell you what they think!

    When the consultation was launched last August, I contacted all 8 MSPs who represent me asking for their views and only about half of them replied. Only one gave me a straight (no pun intended!) answer – that she would be voting for marriage equality. The rest didn’t say either way.

    1. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 6:37pm

      You can find a list of 58 MSPs who have publicly signed the equal marriage pledge here http://www.equalmarriage.org.uk/pledge. MSPs who haven’t signed yet are not necessarily opposed – we think many more will vote in favour.

      1. Thanks, Tim. I’ll definately have a look at that. I do believe that most MSPs will vote for marriage equality, if and when it gets that far. I just get so fed up with politicians trying to keep everyone happy and sitting on the fence rather than saying exactly what they stand for.

        1. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 7:31pm

          … and incidentally among the equal marriage signatories are two of Scotland very small number of Muslim MSPs/MPs – so as with any other religion, this is not a religion vs LGBT thing – there are plenty of equality supporters in all religions including Islam.

        2. I looked at the list of MSPs who have publicly signed this pledge and was pleasantly surprised at some of them. Half the West Scotland regional MSPs have signed it – the same ones who didn’t bother to reply to me or wouldn’t give me an answer! Interestingly, my constituency MSP who did say she’ll vote for marriage equality is NOT on the list!

          I was also surprised to see Hamza Yousef on the list as I saw him in a tv news report a couple of months ago talking about marriage equality and he came across as being somewhat reluctant about it and said that Muslims didn’t look to the Government to deal with matters like this – or something along those lines. So I was pleased to see him sign the pledge.

          In saying that, how many Lib Dem MPs signed the pledge on tuition fees before the 2010 election? I’m not deliberately trying to be negative, but I just don’t like to count my chickens before they’ve hatched.

          1. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 9:23pm

            Who is your constituency MSP Bennie if you don’t mind revealing your location?

          2. Margaret Burgess of the SNP. She was the only one who said she’d vote for it.

          3. Only one out of the 8 MSPs who represent me, I mean – she as the constituency MSP and the other 7 as my West Scotland regional MSPs. Although, as I said before, half of them are now on your pledge list!

          4. Tim Hopkins 19 Apr 2012, 4:21am

            Thanks that’s good to know!

  7. How completely depressing. Almost makes me want to weep.

  8. Didn’t the Muslim leaders already give their views to Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP MSP Hamza Yusuf when they met with them at Glasgow Mosque?

  9. Wow. You should see the size of the damn I don’t give about what Muslims have to say on the secular civil law of the land…

    Simple truth – If you don’t like same sex marriage, don’t bloody have one. But anyone who tries to force me to comply with their faith is going to start hearing uncomfortable words like – Taliban.

  10. “What would become of our society, our civilisation?”

    Do they not realise that there are same sex couples already living together, same as married couples do?

    The world keeps turning!

  11. Next step comes soon and moslems leader say: “Kill all gays. Allah loves it”.
    Scotland, wilcome in islamistic hell…

    1. Paddyswurds 18 Apr 2012, 8:50pm

      @…..
      How ironic you should mention “Islamistic hell”. Hell was invented by the Persiams about 3400 years ago.
      BTW… what is a moslem, someone from Mosley perhaps?.

      1. Paddyswurds 18 Apr 2012, 8:52pm

        Persians*** obv

        1. Incredulous 19 Apr 2012, 1:08am

          Moslems and Muslims have until recently been interchangeable words. Don’t be such a clever Irish kunnt.

          1. Paddyswurds 19 Apr 2012, 12:50pm

            Only interchangeable amongst the ignorant…..

  12. 11 comments (including this) and the apologists haven’t shown up yet;nor have the idiots who always accuse us of racism.

    1. I would argue we have to be measured in our response but that the comments of this previously unheard of group are unacceptable.

      1. Rachel Haytread 19 Apr 2012, 5:16pm

        Stu sweetheart, (how are you by the way?) we do not have to be measured in our response.

        1. Rachel

          Even though we agree and disagree in equal measure, you rarely fail to make me smile ;-)

          How am I? Tired now back at work!

          I think you might be picking me up on a single word here!

          Whilst I agree with you that we do not HAVE to be measured in our response. It is my opinion that is much better than the alternative.

    2. Because no one had (as of your comment) said anything racist yet? Despite the whines of various bigots on here (and in the pub, and driving their taxis, and in their Daily Mail columns), no one is going to call you racist for criticising some obscure Muslim group when they say something stupid. Look, I’ll do it myself: They’re f***ing morons.

      The problem comes when people adopt the EDL position, making out all Muslims are enemies of gay people and it’s “us vs them”. The answer to bigotry is not, and never has been, more bigotry. That just fuels the exact same divisions people like this “Council” are trying to play on. And of course the real victims here are people caught in the middle of this bullsh*t, LGBT Muslims (and LGBT people born into Muslim families).

      IMO we need to draw a very clear distinction between criticising homophobia in Islam and other religions – which we absolutely must do – and simply bashing the religions themselves, otherwise we only stand to make things worse.

      1. Rachel Haytread 19 Apr 2012, 5:22pm

        The EDL do not make out that all Muslims are enemies of gay people.Neither do the Scottish Defence League. They oppose Islamic extremists and those who wish to impose Shariah Law.

        1. Some EDL people do exactly what you say they do not, Rachel.

          How do you explain the North West Infidels?

    3. Islam isn’t a race

      1. Lumi, you are absolutely right – Islam is a belief system and not a race.

      2. Spanner1960 19 Apr 2012, 11:48am

        So we aren’t all a bunch of racists.
        We are a bunch of Islamists.

        1. No we are a group of people bought together by our sexuality – who come from all walks of life as do all the Muslims in the UK – a very small number of whom – are filled with hatred and loathing born of pure ignorance – those are the people we are commenting on.

  13. My concern about this, and it is only a small concern, is that Nicola Sturgeon has a large Muslim population in her constituency. I really hope she doesn’t give in to this blackmail.

    I realise they’re talking about the council elections next month and not the Scottish Parliament, but her majority last year was 4,349 on a turnout of around 22,608 so it wouldnt’ take much to overturn it.

    There’s nothing like the threat of losing their seat to make up a politician’s mind for them!

    1. Unlikely.

      What do the other candidates think?

      Many will support.

      1. I mean she could worry if she goes ahead with marriage equality then when she is up for re-election in 2016 that the Muslims in her constituency could vote against her in retribution.

        I agree it’s unlikely, but politicians do tend to think of groups voting in religious/cultural/ethnic blocks.

        1. Equality Network 18 Apr 2012, 7:17pm

          There was a good article by former SNP MSP Duncan Hamilton in this week’s Scotland on Sunday, pointing out that it’s nonsense to think that Catholics or Muslims will vote en bloc the way their religious leaders tell them to on the basis of same-sex marriage policy.

          If the SNP Govt stick to their policy and introduce this in the Parliament next year, everyone will have forgotten it by 2016. Just like, after Keep the Clause threatened they would get people to vote out all MSPs who voted to repeal section 28 in 2000, everyone had forgotten it by the 2003 election.

          1. I saw the article you mention. I agree that there is not such thing as a block vote on religious or cultural grounds anymore, but I do think there used to be and I also think some politicians could still think like this.

          2. Paddyswurds 18 Apr 2012, 9:03pm

            @….
            …. That is a surprise that Sos would publish anything pro gay.
            You do know of course that Scotland on Sunday is in fact the Mail on Sunday Scotland version. We had Ireland on Sunday but they dropped the pretense when people laughed at the obvious scam and total lack of sales. It is now called The Irish Mail on Sunday but i don’t think sales have improved much……….

          3. Scotland on Sunday is the Sunday version of the Scotsman newspaper. We get the Mail on Sunday here, albeit a slightly edited Scottish edition.

      2. Equality Network 18 Apr 2012, 7:13pm

        I would have thought that most people of whatever religion including Islam would want to vote for councillors based on things that councillors control that will make a difference to their lives such as education policy, social work policy, roads, refuse etc etc. And as Stu says, which party are you going to vote for if you decide to vote based on opposition to equal marriage? How many candidates are going to make public that they oppose same-sex marriage over the next two weeks?

        1. I made the same point in an earlier comment about not knowing which candidates support mariage equality.

          As for voting for councillors on only issues that councils control, in theory this is how people should vote, but not always in reality. Look at the Scot Parl elections last year when the Lib Dems were punished by the electorate for what they did at Westminster. That had nothing to do with the Scottish Parliament but didn’t stop people voting as if it did.

  14. I have never heard of the “Council of Glasgow Imams” in my life and can find no reference to them on Google other than in this story from today.

    Who are these people, what is their agenda, and why should anybody give a stuff about what they think?

    1. The Scotsman, BBC, STV, PA and others are reporting this too.

      Although I can find no trace of them online other than this story or other similar ones.

      Splinter group?

  15. too much crap and hesteria being spouted by people that haven’t read the government proposals. As the meme says “keep calm and carry on” its not going to affect you or your stupid fairy tale.

  16. It makes me laugh – they have the nerve to rant about islamophobia when they basically oppose every minority and non-muslim group on the planet.

    1. The “help help I’m a victim” card is a common ploy by religious groups. It takes a truly stunning amount of cognitive dissonance for them to overlook the simple fact that THEY are often the oppressor and THEY are no different than a bully wetting his pants and having a cry because his bully swung back.

  17. Robert in S. Kensington 18 Apr 2012, 7:04pm

    Such retarded nonsense coming from the devolved brains of religious nutters. The only way civilisation might end, short of a global atomic war, would be that no more heterosexuals procreated and in light of ten countries allowing equal civil marriage, it doesn’t seem to have thwarted any attempts to make that a reality. In fact the world is over-populated as a result of hetero breeding. Same-sex marriage has absolutely had NO impact on their ability to have children or to marry for that matter. I don’t think they realise just how absurd their statements are. C4M and their ilk are no better. It’s all mass hysteria and fear mongering but sadly, there are some very gullible people who believe it. The sort of thing the Daily Mail and Telegraph promote.

  18. “A family is a man and a woman and children. If the government turns a family into a man and a man or a woman and a woman with no procreative faculties, what would become of our society, our civilisation?” – I know that it’s probably difficult for someone with a medieval mind set to get to grips with the modern world, but those families made of two men or two women, we’re already here. We’ve ALWAYS been here, in spite of homophobic scum who would have otherwise.
    In any case – this really is none of their business. This is CIVIL marriage, nothing to do with their magic spells and other nonsense.

  19. chris lowcase 18 Apr 2012, 7:15pm

    you would think from one minority to another there would be a little understanding. nah, just keep alienating millions of british muslims, give the far right ammo and make life more miserable for brits of all cultures.

    a similar rant to my other post earlier. we have had christianity for ages, we sort of know how to deal with that. depending on where and who you grew up with islam is reletavely new and to some people all they know is what they read in the papers. its funny, any muslim i know was brought here by their parents to get away from conservative islam.

  20. Why don’t we all vote on the civil rights of Muslims? Why would turnabout not be fair play? We could just as easily use the Ten Commandments to condemn their religion.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 18 Apr 2012, 8:22pm

      Not just muslims, the religious nutters in the other major cults, the CoE and RC’s.They’re not much better. Just look at the hate-mongering coming from the people at C4M and their obsession with polygamy and incestuous relationships that they claim will occur if we are allowed a civil marriage. It’s beyond bearing false witness against one’s neighbour. I don’t understand why nobody in a position of authority isn’t taking any of them on once and for all.

  21. Islam at it again. Yawn. They think the main purpose of marriage is having babies. I always thought the main purpose of marriage was about the union two people who love one another. Marriage is obviously just a name for a baby making factory to these muslim leaders.

    1. If marriage is solely for procreation, they why do they pay so much attention to their goats and sheep?

    2. Robert in S. Kensington 18 Apr 2012, 8:09pm

      And they make no comments concerning infertile hetero couples who marry or who choose not to procreate.

  22. Im tired of reading stupid and irrelevant commentary from religious groups on the governments proposals for equal CIVIL marriage. If they read the first 4 lines of the consultation they will see this

    “1. to enable same-sex couples to have a civil marriage i.e. only civil ceremonies in a register office or approved premises (like a hotel)
    2. to make no changes to religious marriages. This will continue to only be legally possible between a man and a woman”

    There Catholic, C of E, Muslim concerns on being ‘forced’ to perform marriages are completely unwarranted. Do me a favour and fill in the consultation for me in favour of equal marriage in the words of David Cameron.

    “Yes, it’s about equality, but it’s also about something else: commitment. Conservatives believe in the ties that bind us; that society is stronger when we make vows to each other and support each other. So I don’t support gay marriage despite being a Conservative. I support gay marriage because I’m a Conservative.”

    1. REPOST TO YOUR FACEBOOK with the link to the consultation (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/about-us/consultations/equal-civil-marriage/)

      we NEED to spread the word and refute this crap that is being spouted. People NEED to know and the media NEEDS to report it. In fact next time you see the BBC and ITV giving airtime to these extremists perhaps we should politely email them consultation and tell the media to read it before reporting as part of responsible journalism

      1. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 7:54pm

        Please see my comment below – the Home Office consultation document is for England and Wales only. The Scottish Govt proposals (and those are the ones this news story is about) that were consulted on Sept to Dec last year, are different, and cover full marriage equality, that is including allowing those religions that want to, to conduct same-sex marriage, while protecting those that don’t want to.

        1. well replace the link with the scottish one and quote the scottish one where it clearly says only religious groups that wish to do it. Westminster Parliament’s consultation does say the outcome of the Scottish consultation will also influence the one for England & Wales.

    2. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 7:50pm

      Except that this story is about Scotland, and the Scottish Govt’s proposals are different. They consulted on true equal marriage, that is on allowing civil same-sex marriage, humanist same-sex marriage (humanist marriage is legally effective in Scotland), and religious same-sex marriage by those religions that want to. But of course those religions that don’t want to will be fully free not to, so you’re right that no-one will be forced to do it.

      1. well replace the link with the scottish one and quote the scottish one where it clearly says only religious groups that wish to do it.

        1. Tim Hopkins 18 Apr 2012, 8:30pm

          Yes absolutely!

  23. “Civil partnerships have “accommodated” gay couples and there is “no need for such unions to be blessed as marriages by faith institutions” i understand that Moslems have great respect for the written word. If this is so, has this ignorant dolt actually read the civil marriage proposals? ‘faith institutions’ aren’t forced to do anything. What a fool. Whatever else I may or may not do with my arsehole, I don’t preach out it.

  24. Paddyswurds 18 Apr 2012, 8:08pm

    “main purpose of marriage is, of course, the procreation of children”. What a heap of utter bullsh!t….Children were being created long before the mumbo jumbo of religion. If you want to take it all the way back to when we were mere scum on the top of water we were reproducing. Who do these idiotic morons think they are talking to; the morons in 6th century dress who can’t afford razor blades and who marry their 8 year old cousins or educated intelligent (mostly) westerners who fully embrace the twenty first century.
    “Council of Glasgow Imams”… gimme a break here. Is the council the entire Glasgow population of Muslims because i would think the number of Muslims in Scotland is fairly small never mind Glasgow. It is hardly the climate of Kabul or Tehran….So all in all this story is another bit of a damp squib. PinkNews seems to be making a habit of damp squibs lately, most of them American. I suppose we can be thankful that this is a first hand British story….isn’t it?

    1. @Paddyswurds

      I thought you might be right, but thought I would check out what the facts were.

      The vast majority of Muslims in the UK live in England and Wales: of 1,591,000 Muslims recorded at the 2001 Census, 1,536,015 were living in England and Wales, where they formed 3% of the population in 2001; 42,557 were living in Scotland, forming 0.84% of the population; and 1,943 were living in Northern Ireland.
      SOURCE: Analysis of 2001 Census, Scottish Executive.

      In Scotland Muslims represent 0.84% of the population (42,557), with 30,000 in Glasgow. Muslims are the third largest non-Christian group after atheists and agnostics.
      SOURCE: Young Muslims UK August 2010

      The population of urban Glasgow is 1,750,270 – thus the Muslim population is 1.7%.

      This is not a first hand story though. Its been in The Scotman, BBC, The Guardian and elsewhere – all before PN I think.

      1. Thanks for all the facts and figures, Stu. Just one question – what do you mean by urban Glasgow? By sheer co-incidence I read in a newspaper (I’m afraid I can’t recall which) just a couple of days ago that the population of Glasgow was just over half a million. I particularly noticed it because when I was at college in the 90′s, I remember being told that the population of Glasgow was 650,000 so I was surprised to read that it had went down since then.

        1. @BennieM

          No problem.

          The population for Glasgow I am told is 629,501.

          Urban Glasgow is the much bigger population and also covers:
          East Dunbartonshire
          West Dunbartonshire
          North Lanarkshire
          South Lanarkshire
          East Renfrewshire
          Renfrewshire
          Inverclyde

          Given that this spurious unheard of organisation does not specify what it means by Glasgow, I presumed it to mean the urban sprawl.

          1. Right, I see. The half a million figure I saw must refer to the city of Glasgow.

            To be honest, I’ve never heard the term “urban Glasgow” before and I wouldn’t consider most of those places to be referred to as Glasgow.

          2. I’m from East Kilbride which is in South Lanarkshire and we certainly have Glasgow and G post codes on our addresses. Though like you I didn’t consider EK as part of Glasgow but who knows :\

          3. I’ve just noticed you mention the population of Glasgow is over 600,000 – which would tie in with what I was told at college. I can’t remember the newspaper or story that I read just in the last couple of days that put it at around 500,000.

          4. I thought some people would say it wasnt Glasgie proper! lol

            Out of interest, Cambuslang – Glasgow or not?

          5. South Lanarkshire so again in that grey area(and by that I don’t mean a weather based joke about Scotland)

          6. @Kris

            lol

            Although last time I was in Glasgow it was brilliant sunshine and roasting hot!

          7. You must have been lucky, Stu, and visited Glasgow on it’s one sunny day of the year!!!

  25. Did you hear that Scotland? The muslim imams have demanded that the Scottish infidels (derogatory term for non muslims) bow down to their sharia law??

    1. Where? When?

  26. Paddyswurds 18 Apr 2012, 8:37pm

    Can anyone say whether or not there is an Equal Marriage petition and page for northern Ireland?

  27. Yawn…! Muslim leaders offer ‘no compromise’ Nothing new there then!

    1. Spanner1960 19 Apr 2012, 11:49am

      Nice to know they are willing to discuss it. Not.
      Typical non-European attitude.

  28. Nawal Husnoo 18 Apr 2012, 9:40pm

    Muslim leaders: “main purpose of marriage is, of course, the procreation of children”

    George Orwell: The aim of the Party was not merely to prevent men and women from forming loyalties which it might not be able to control. Its real, undeclared purpose was to remove all pleasure from the sexual act. Not love so much as eroticism was the enemy, inside marriage as well as outside it. All marriages between Party members had to be approved by a committee appointed for the purpose and – though the principle was never clearly stated – permission was always refused if the couple concerned gave the impression of being physically attracted to one another. The only recognized purpose of marriage was to beget children for the service of the Party.

  29. High time clerics realised we won’t be dictated to by evil and senile old men. I expect politicians to stand firm, show some backbone against this kind of bullying. Tell them to go to hell.

    1. “Can anyone say whether or not there is an Equal Marriage petition and page for northern Ireland?”
      There isn’t. I think it’s unlikely that the NI Assembly or Stormont bring forward civil marriage until they are forced to do so. All we can do here at the moment is support similar efforts in Britain and then call for Stormont to follow suit. I can already see the judicial reviews in the not too distant future…
      “11 comments (including this) and the apologists haven’t shown up yet;nor have the idiots who always accuse us of racism”
      Actually, I find some of the comments here quite horrid. Yes, the immams are wrong obviously, as are the Catholic, CoE etc religious leaders who have made similar pronouncements. No need to make a swipe at all of Scotland’s muslims because of it. It’s not how we want to be treated as a minority, and not how we would want to treat other minorities.

  30. Can someone remove this grossly racist post, please? There are some earlier ones that verge on the offensive, but this one it the pits. As an oppressed minority, we should know how to treat other minorities better, even when we disagree with them.

    1. I suspect it will be removed tomorrow by PN – they reactively deal with offensive and inappropriate posts.
      (Well some of them – but I suspect this one will go!)

    2. Incredulous 18 Apr 2012, 11:48pm

      Oh, shut the hell up, you self-hating dyke.

      1. Incredulous, it must be an awful burden to be ugly. Stand firm, you’ll get through this, despite your obvious flaw.

    3. Thanks for removing the post. There is racism in our community, as some of these comments show, and it doesn’t help our cause, as well as being oppressive of other minorities.

    4. Thanks for removing the post.

  31. That’s not even worthy of a reasonable response

    1. and yet you comment

  32. “Can anyone say whether or not there is an Equal Marriage petition and page for northern Ireland?”
    There isn’t. I think it’s unlikely that the NI Assembly or Stormont bring forward civil marriage until they are forced to do so. All we can do here at the moment is support similar efforts in Britain and then call for Stormont to follow suit. I can already see the judicial reviews in the not too distant future…
    “11 comments (including this) and the apologists haven’t shown up yet;nor have the idiots who always accuse us of racism”
    Actually, I find some of the comments here quite horrid. Yes, the immams are wrong obviously, as are the Catholic, CoE etc religious leaders who have made similar pronouncements. No need to make a swipe at all of Scotland’s muslims because of it. It’s not how we want to be treated as a minority, and not how we would want to treat other minorities.

    1. Thank f*** someone else is on the same page as me. :D

      1. Incredulous 19 Apr 2012, 1:07am

        What? Utterly demented and self-righteous?

    2. I agree, Catherine

      The comments by this previously unheard of group is unacceptable and deserves to be challenged, but in a measured way.

  33. These ridiculous muslim leaders are guilty of fermenting much Islamophobic racism with their nasty comments. How irresponsible.

    1. It’s really the media’s fault for giving them the oxygen of publicity. No one had heard of this “Council of Glasgow Imams” (how many imams? representing who?) before now, but the press just can’t resist a good “three Muslims pretend to be important and say something offensive” story. No need to Google who they are beforehand, naturally.

    2. Islamaphobia and racism are two separate things because Muslims can be of any race

      1. To clarify, I don’t support Islam at all, but I’m not racist against Albanians/Arabs/Perisans/Turks etc

        1. FranklyBewildered 19 Apr 2012, 7:55am

          Oh we KNOW you’re not a racist, Lumi. You save your hate for transgenders.

          1. I don’t hate transgenders, I hate transgenderism
            I don’t see what my views on that subject have to do with this, you’re just looking to bully me about it

          2. Compare:

            “I don’t hate transgenders. I hate transgenderism”

            with

            “I hate the sin, not the sinner”

            Need we say any more?

          3. @Lumi

            On the Welsh Archbishop thread, I asked you to clarify your views on transgender people and you still spouted your bigoted nonsense in reply. So your claim here about not hating transgender people is wrong, both morally and factually.

      2. Spanner1960 19 Apr 2012, 11:53am

        Yes, but 99% of British Muslims are either of foreign descent/origin/birth, or directly related to those that are.

        1. Spanner

          Are you saying that because someone is directly related to someone who is of foreign descent is not British because of this foreign descent?

          1. Rachel Haytread 19 Apr 2012, 5:27pm

            Yes.

          2. How far back would you take that Rachel?

  34. The main purpose of marriage is for two adults that love each other to make a life long commitment to each other

    Me being with another woman is no less than a heterosexual couple

    Islam does not own civil marriage or have any say in it

    Children aren’t for everyone, not matter their orientation. I for one am never having children, but even so homosexual couples are perfectly capable of raising a healthy and normal child

    1. I don’t give a god damn if they think of same sex marriage being an attack on their faith. Their homophobic, sexist, discriminatory, violent, evil religion has no significance in civil marriage and it has no significance to me.

      Not allowing same sex marriage (and other LGB rights) is infringing on my religious freedom

      1. Civil partnerships are unequal
        I don’t want a god damn civil partnership. I want a marriage- I want to make that commitment, I want to have a wedding, I want to be able to call a woman my wife and have it be true.
        I don’t need my marriage to be blessed by a religious person/building- in fact I don’t want that at all, I just want civil marriage

        1. One more thing (for now :P)

          Same sex marriages being allowed will not affect religious freedom, including that of Muslims, in any way. Nobody is being forced to perform or recognize marriages.

  35. I don’t understand how everybody can act like this on a Muslim post but be less harsh on a Christian post when Christians say the same things
    (They’re both evil)

  36. Which country would that be? Islam isn’t a country. They may well have been born in Scotland.

  37. 1. The could be from Scotland
    2. They have every right to be there
    3. It’s not fair to the LGB people in their home country if they have one
    4. Even if a few Muslims leave, there will still be plenty

  38. A lot of people making excuses for these sub-humans – and yet it’s the same people baying for blood when it’s about some meaningless article in the Daily Mail. I should have known all along. Gay people are no less thick than any other group.

  39. johnny33308 19 Apr 2012, 5:49am

    And yet another barbarian ‘religion’ that cannot process the word “civil” in their atrophied religion-soaked little brains! What a bunch of stupid illiterate fools who cannot even open a dictionary! An attack on their ‘faith’? They are deluded in so many ways…I for one am sick of listening to their bigoted hateful whining! This has NOTHING to do with them! They should MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS, fleecing a flock! Our Civil Rights are not their’s to comment upon! But their ability to comment on such things may be SEVERELY limited in the future….by Civil authority! Let us hope so! Go back to your Dark Ages and leave us humans alone! Or else!

    1. Rachel Haytread 19 Apr 2012, 5:12pm

      ‘Or else!’…? Or else what? Don’t just say it or think it. Do it. ‘It’ doesn’t have to be a headline making act. Just do something. Each of us can fight back in a small way even if it means buying your newspaper elsewhere or walking home instead of using one of their taxis. If you want to go further, use your imagination.

  40. johnny33308 19 Apr 2012, 6:03am

    These bright people propose that 10% of the population not BREEDING will destroy humanity? The 10% of the population not breeding has already not been breeding without marriage equality amd there are now 7 billion humans alive on Earth at this moment….seems we have NO impact upon human populations in the least. Their ‘arguments’ are filled with faulty logic, or rather, no logic at all. What a bunch of morons! Unable to read or reason by the look of it! Bigots! They should be invited to go fornicate themselves!

  41. Tim Hopkins 19 Apr 2012, 7:59am

    Many Muslims support equal marriage of course. It’s good to see Glasgow Labour MSP Hanzala Malik quoted on this in today’s Herald: “The Muslim community expects others to give us freedom so why would we deny it to others? And to say that this could affect the outcome of the election is just pie in the sky.”

    1. Perphaps your statement should read: ‘many politicians support equal marriage of course’. In other words, Hanzala Malik was not talking as a muslim. He was talking as a politician

      1. Tim Hopkins 19 Apr 2012, 9:55am

        Although Hanzala’s words are clearly spoken as a member of the Muslim community – referring to that community as “us”. I suppose to be accurate, he’s a Muslim and a politician, who supports equal marriage. Like his party’s deputy leader, Glasgow MP, Anas Sarwar, and the SNP Glasgow MSP Humza Yousaf. Non-politician Muslims support equal marriage too – some of them are quoted in the Herald today too.

        1. Tim

          The problem is (for Ken), if you present it in the manner you did (which is an accurate and honest portrayal of Hanzala’s words) then it does not fit with Ken’s perception of Muslims and the perception he wishes society to have of them.

          I prefer honesty! Condemn those who are like this Council of Glasgow Imams and welcome those like Hanzala who are supportive. Is that really too hard for some people to grasp?

      2. Surely he’s both a politician AND a muslim? The 2 are not mutually exclusive.

        1. He has made a statement which is clearly a political statement, but he also states it is said as a Muslim.

          Clearly there will be times where his role as a politician might require him to assist and support issues which might not usually come within his comfort zone in relation to his faith. He however, makes it clear that he is comfortable in supporting these proposals both politically and as a Muslim.

    2. GingerlyColors 19 Apr 2012, 9:36am

      The trouble is that the media seem reluctant to publish positive stories about Islam, prefering to concentrate on the vocal minority of extremists who tarnish their religion. It is time to starve the extremists of the oxygen of publicity. Having said that, Clause 28 didn’t exactly keep us quiet!

    3. @Tim

      That is really good to hear! I admit to simply assuming the 2 Muslim MSPs would vote against marriage equality but they both seem to be in favour. Also, Scotland’s only Muslim MP is in favour of it. We need to start looking at people as individuals rather than just their religion or race which is only one part of who they are. I must admit to doing that myself.

  42. GingerlyColors 19 Apr 2012, 9:32am

    I thought tolerance was a two-way thing. I don’t hate and I don’t want to be hated. Why is it that there is a hardcore of Muslims (plus other religious types – don’t forget ALL religious fundamentalism is dangerous) who hate and seem to want it back in return?
    Why can’t the followers of Islam take the same approach of other migrant religions such as Hinduism, Sikhism and Bhuddism? When was the last time we’ve had Hindus calling for the murder of gays on our streets?
    The recent legislation against minarets and veils in France and Switzerland are only the beginnings of what could be a backlash against Muslims in Europe . A Hindu collegue once told me that people are beginning to get p*****d off with Islam – to put it bluntly.

    1. I think it is fair to say we are getting pi**ed off with all of them! Hinduism I think is the only religion who has remained quiet throughout this whole debate. Many Budhists I know would not class it as a religion as such too. Sikhs have spoken out against marriage equality but they certainly have not been demanding that we are killed etc like the Muslims would like!

  43. So the society say “main purpose of marriage is, of course, the procreation of children”. How many times do these idiots have to be told that marriage is about the love two people have for each other? Whether it is a straight or same sex marriage, if they have children then surely the children are a bonus prize to the love that is already there?

    1. Because the first duty of any religion is to urge for the creation of more believers. Religion is a perpetual mendicant and it has no choice in its own survival but to see the breeding of the next batch of sheep.

  44. In Scotland, Muslims represent 0.9% of the population. There are more gays than Muslims.

    1. and a percentage of them are Gay Muslims!

  45. No Superstition no matter how bullying and misogynistic is going to have any influence on evolved humans in 2012 – Religion is mankind’s greatest flaw and greatest lie – the reason for hatred, discrimination, and war,
    and as my old Dad used to say – if the way of life in your country of choice doesn’t suit your lifestyle – move to country that does.

  46. Thank you PN for removing the offensive comment

  47. Mohammed’s wife Aicha couldn’t have kids when he married her, as she was 9 and therefore had probably not started menstruating yet (he was in his 50s). But that was called a marriage.

    So, a 50-something year old man can ‘marry’ a pre-menstrual girl and that’s fine, but two men cannot marry, because they won’t make kids?

    Mohammed was also infertile.

    It disgusts me how the marriage of an old man to a child is held up in Islam as a beautiful and sacred thing, yet two adult consenting males/females cannot marry, lest they risk not having kids.

  48. At the last election round here the only candidate who was opposed to greater equality for LGBT people was the BNP candidate. Are all the Glasgow Imams going to recommend to all their followers that they go and vote for the BNP then? Ironic in the extreme!

  49. Jock S. Trap 20 Apr 2012, 11:09am

    No surprise there then but I remind those opposed that this is a free country with a democracy. There is nothing stopping them moving to a country that caters for their bigotry.

    1. Jock S. Trap 20 Apr 2012, 11:13am

      …and before anyone shouts racism I mean All those opposed not just Muslims.

  50. The real joke here is that if a population of gay settlers were to call for gay marriage in a muslim country they would be stoned until they were dead. I believe that fundamentalist Islam is incompatable with western ideals and beliefs. It beggars me why these gay haters come here if they think its so awful? Its certainly not for the weather in Glasgow I can tell you because I’ve lived there!

  51. Homo occidens 20 Apr 2012, 11:47pm

    The muslims! The only group of bastards that can make the pope look like a liberal homo-loving type of guy. If I wanted religion in my life I would join a church.

  52. Ironic Imam are critical of marriage equality when all the Islamic Republics on Earth gleefully and lawfully practice polygamy. So, if religious types truly hate polygamy they should stop practicing polygamy-founded religions. All their religions were founded by polygamist slave-owning cultures.

  53. theGentleWarrior 25 Apr 2012, 8:48pm

    Folks, please don’t be so quick to write the issue off as a civil matter only that has nothing to do with religion.

    One day we shall have to tackle the homophobia within Christian, Muslim, Jewish communities and so on

    When I have the right to civil marriage (and I proudly declare I have at State level here is Massachusetts, but I want it at Federal level), I’ll then be fighting for to marry in Church.

    Yes members of the church have turned their back on us, but I have not turned my back on church and more importantly my faith. I realize many of you, like me, were hurt by your church but that doesn’t automatically mean we must leave and jump on the atheist ban wagon.

    fear, hatred and homophobia have no place anywhere in civil or religious life.

    Now I’m going to refer you to two great men, one an atheist & one religious both whom make the point better I,

    Bishop Gene Robinson and Ian McKellen
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7504003.stm

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/andrew_marr_show/7504077.stm

    here is a great extract
    “SIR IAN MCKELLEN: Well as an atheist I, I, it would be tempting to say let the church get on with its internal arguments. But it spreads beyond that. And when the, when the Christian registrar in Islington this week, having refused to witness the civil partnership between two gay men and was sacked and then reinstated by the tribunal we see that there are ramifications.

    Just looking at it from the outside, the church thinks it’s got a particular problem with some articles, perhaps not of faith but of, written in the Bible that they refer to. And I can remember the armed forces not that long ago saying they had a particular problem – it was all to do with discipline. Well it’s just been discovered there is no discipline problems when you let gay people into the military. And schools too. Well we’ve got a particular problem.

    The particular problem they’ve all got and share is homophobia. And having it they root around in the Bible to discover the very few passages that seem to be relevant. But people like the Bishop, like the Quakers, like many people I marched with in Gay Pride last week, gay Christians, gay Jews, gay Muslims are at ease with their faith and their position in society. And so the argument is one we have to .. “

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