Good man, Dr Morgan – a senior churchman can be a Christian after all!
It is always good to see a real Christian setting the example of what Christians should be. Maybe some day they will learn and actually do what God told them to do, Love on Another. God Bless him.
I wonder if they do “religious” CPs? I’ve never heard them being mentioned before but it sounds like they might be persuaded, especially since it sounds like they aren’t under the control of the CofE and synod.
Anybody know whether they would allow CPs to be done on their churches????
In the preamble to his statement on the government consultation on civil marriage (where he states that “The question then as now is, will the church protect and support pastorally, faithful, stable, lifelong relationships of whatever kind in order to encourage human values such as love and fidelity and recognise the need in Christian people for some public religious support.”) there is mention that religious CPs need approval by the CoW Governing Body and then local licensing authorities at the request of each local church and that this process has not begun. He seems to suggest that a discussion should be held in the church which considers the issues of CPs and civil marriage, but he seems to embrace the issue of same sex couples marrying.
Hold on just a cotton pickin minute here…today is April18th not the first………….. surely?
well thats his chance of being Archbishop of Canterbury screwed…nice to hear a few non fire and brimstone comments though.
If only the rest of the church would listen to Dr. Morgan, wise words indeed and most welcome!
He gets it! Yay!!
My goodness, a senior church figure who understands exactly how the church makes gay congregants feel!
Makes a refreshing change from ‘everybody’s welcome and accepted – we only hate the sin’
How did Sarah Walters who was born in the mid sixties, write a book in 1947.
No, the dear old bish has his dates muddled up. The novel is set in the forties mostly 46/47.
It is good to see that there are still the odd sensible person involved with the CoE or is that different from CoW.?
CoW is part of the Anglican Communion but separate from the CoE.
There are a few sensible people in the CoE too like the Bishop of Salisbury.
The Archbishops comments are tremendous!
Absolutely tremendous. Of course, I doubt if the Mail or Telegraph will make any mention of it, let alone the BBC. So far, I’ve not read or heard anything from any of them.
Well at least when they put forward a church bigot, they could put forward people like this guy to balance the report.
They won’t like it in Taunton!
….never mind Seven Oaks…lol
Why can’t more senior clergy hold this view? I can never get my head around religions which hate and discriminate when the whole point of religion is to love your fellow man.
On the contrary, the whole point of religion is to love God and keep his commandments. Loving yor fellow man is one (and indeed the most important) commandment. However, you cannot ignore the other commandments which include having sexual relationship ONLY in a marital union between a man and a woman
Obviously you have not actually read the ten commandments.
The 10 Commandments:
Of all the gods, only worship me.
All Art and photography is banned, except abstract art. Don’t worship works of art.
No perjury or cussing.
No working on Saturday, even by your slaves and cattle.
Be nice to your parents.
Don’t have sex with some one else’s woman
Don’t tell lies about anyone
Don’t wish you could have other people’s things, including their cattle, women or slaves.
you cannot ignore the other commandments which include having sexual relationship ONLY in a marital union between a man and a woman
Oh? Which commandment was that? I don’t think, if ti exists, it’s one the patriarchs Abraham and Jacob (among others) paid much attention to.
Missed all the polygamy then? How convenient it must be to cherry pick just the bits you like the look of.
Unless you are thinking of Paul. Who was not a contemporary of Jesus, had no actual divinity claim and happened to see Jesus in a “vision” (how bloody convenient?)
You forgot the 11th commandment, Ken.
Thou shalt not troll the internet.
Ken, you’d better go and re-read your bible. That is not one of the Ten Commandments. Love one another is the commandment that Jesus said was the most important, and that’s exactly what we’re doing in our loving, stable same sex relationships.
….Which of the currently roughly 3500 “gods” should we worship and how do we know which is the right one….and why is he/she/it such a megalomaniac that he/she/it is jealous of all the others. How is your “god” on the bullying to death of 14 year old boys. obviously not one of his/her/its best actions is it, given that you believe all actions come through your “god”……??
I think they do, but over the last decade or so I’ve been told things have got so bad with fundies taking over, they have had to keep their heads down. Maybe more will now have the courage to speak out against the bigots in the church, and they harm they do to both gay people, and to the church.
Yes, you could be right. Perhaps I should have asked why can’t more senior clergy speak out like this?
Every Christian is a bigot
Some gay people can be bigoted against other people.
Clearly, Lumi, you have not bothered to explore pro gay Christian groups or groups for gay Christians. Or for that matter listened in the slightest to what the Archbishop of Wales had to say
Yes, Stu, it’s true that christians – and other people – can be bigoted. That is a really important thing to comment. It is funny that I never met a bigoted dog or a chair, eh? That this is a characteristic of a human being – lummy, I never!
….this is an excellent video you should watch before making further comments like this…….I know it brought me up short!!
oops seems i forgot to post the Link. here it is now
Lumi, you really are appalling and bigoted.
Actually, that’s not true at all. I’m sorry if your experience tells a different story, but your point is over generalised. There are many LGBT Christians (myself included) and I’m sure we’d take great exception to being refered to as bigots.
Where’s the balance?
Maybe some people have only ever experienced bigoted Christians, well that does not mean all are, and its quite clear that some are very supportive (not least LGBT Christians).
The whole point of religion is to not think for yourself and in Christianity to follow the Bible, which is sexist, homophobic, racist, pro-slavery, pro-murder, etc
I doubt that any of the great Christian philosophers would share your view.
An intelligent and reasonable man. His comments need to be shouted from the rooftops to all those other silly fearful theocrats.
Very well expressed. thank heaven there are still some wise and good people in the church. Their quiet voices are all too rarely heard above the din of intolerance.
In a nutshell, Rodand Wingby. Well said.
Although the established C of E is anything but liberal, it doesn’t deserve some of the flack thrown at it – It is men such as the Archbishop who represent the majority feeling inside the church, as opposed to those who are part of the decission-making elite and who are given so much publiciry.
Thank you, Dr. Morgan. One of the reasoned voices in the Anglican church. Now if only more would declare support. It took great courage to do this, I admire the man and respect him. Well done! He has put the entire church to shame.
This is at last one leader of the church who is telling the truth on their responsibility. “If the moral aim of the gospel is to encourage love of neighbors, how can that happen when people are made to feel unwanted, unloved, and sinful?
Hopefully he can muster a few other church leaders to stand with him. We have to have the same rights as every one in this country.
Obviously there is no consensus of opinion amongst clergy on the issue of equal marriage.
Their opinion is irrelevant to civil marriage, and marriage in religious institutions should be allowed, or not allowed, according to the decision of the particular institution, as part of the principle of religious freedom.
thats fine with me. A brave man. Maybe he realizes that if there is civil marriage but relgiion holds out, it will become more and more irrelevant to the people.
At least he’s a good man, not someone digging the church’s grave
Archbishop Desmond Tutu has written in his latest book, “To discriminate against our sisters and brothers who are lesbian or gay on grounds of their sexual orientation for me is as totally unacceptable and unjust as apartheid ever was.” (page 55) Strong words from a man who has fought against apartheid.
I wish he could be Archbishop of Canterbury!
To be fair, Desmond Tutu has held this point of view for many, many years. The Church should listen to him – a man that had to fight and struggle at the coal face of discrimination.
It says 12 Comments but all I get is a blank page….whats up folks…???
….refreshed several times including restarting Firefox but to no avail, however when i made the second post above, all suddenly reappeared. WTF Pink News???
Very odd! Is your firewall etc all up to date?
I often have problems like this, but just closing my browser and then going back in seems to work. I use IE not Firefox.
The most sensible and thoughtful comment I have heard from a senior churchman (except that of the Bishop of Salisbury) for quite some time.
Thank you, Archbishop!
Bishop Nicholas Holtam of Salisbury, an ardent equal marriage supporter is to attend the Cutting Edge Consortium, a pro-equal civil marriage summit this Saturday, April 21st at Conway Hall in Camden from 9 a.m. to 5 p.m. The conference will also challenge faith-based homophobia and transphobia with a range of workshops and speakers. MP Angela Eagle and Aiden O’Neill QC are set to sepak on the day. Should be extremely interesting. However, equal civil marriage will be the main topic.
Good for him. Are we expecting too much to believe the BBC might actually report this, or that the Bishop of Salisbury is also in favour? Probably.
Well his religion is against homosexuality sorry to admit it, so I doubt he’s a true follower of it. It’s also full of evil, and just because there were a few good things in the book it follows, it doesn’t make it a good religion.
Still, every religious person should accept homosexuals/bisexuals/asexuals, not treat them horribly., don’t deny them equal rights (that includes marriage). Religious people also need to realize that their religion doesn’t own marriage.
I know what you are saying but being a Christian does not mean you are homophobic, I know plenty of gay Christians.
Dr Morgan clearly gets it.
Christianity is against homosexuality, so if they support LGB equal treatment and rights then they aren’t real Christians
I’ve also never met a non homophobic Christian in my life
Are you saying that Quakers aren’t real Christians – or Unitarians, or the Archbishop of Wales, or the Bishop of Salisbury, or the MCC, or the Lesbian and Gay Christian Fellowship?
I would disagree.
Some Christians are anti homosexuality. They try hard to persuade everyone that this means the entire religion opposes homosexuality. That is not the case of ALL Christians.
Lumi, Christianity is not against homosexuality. The chruch has taught us to belive that it is. Have a look at http://www.godmademegay.com.
Yes they’re not real Christians. The Christian Bible is against homosexuality.
Are you questioning the integrity of my friends (gay friends) who are Christians?
I am very disappointed in your lack of tolerance and support of fellow gay people
Yes I am, if you can follow a religion that says you are an abomination and should be put to death (men who have sex with men) , says homosexual sex is unnatural, says that you won’t inherit the kingdom of God, then you hate yourself
Let alone all the other atrocities of the book
I tolerate and support LGB people, but not when they follow a religion full of evil
Then if you are judging people you havent met on what you presume they believe without having met them or explored how they reached their conclusions and you are putting them in a little box marked “Christian”, then your attitude is as judgemental as one of the homophobic type of Christians who believe being gay is sinful. Its wrong, its demeaning and it stereotyping.
I don’t know how difficult it is to understand
If you’re a TRUE Christian, you’re homophobic, plain and simple
I don’t know how difficult to understand this is for you …
Not all Christians believe homosexuality is a sin.
Yes, but if they don’t believe it’s a sin, then they’re not real Christians
The Bible is blatantly against homosexuality
Your interpretation of the BIble is against homosexuality.
Who is to say you are right?
It’s not my interpretation of the Bible, it’s pretty damn blatant
It calls homosexual sex unnatural, I don’t see how that can interpreted any other way
Which Bible did you read, Lumi
King James, NIV, Living, Good News, any one of a hundred translations – and not all say homosexuality is a sin.
Then after you have read the translation you have to try and understand the meaning and contextualise it.
Many Christians do not believe being gay is wrong. You call them not Christians – thats demonstrates someone who is not willing to understand other peoples viewpoints.
Well the Bible isn’t very credible that proves my point ;)
But the most widely accepted translations are homophobic
-The tattoos thing is debatable, but in general Christians don’t like it- some crazy thing to do about the blood and if you get a tattoo from someone you inherit their problems
-If you’re gay, you can’t be Christian unless you hate yourself. The Bible IS against homosexuality.
-I’ve talked to tons of Christian in my life so far. I despise religion with a passion, especially their religion, and I’ve yet to meet a nice Christian before
-Transgenderism is damaging and wrong, my viewpoints are correct on that subject- I won’t change my mind on such a horrible atrocity
Meant to post the down a post sorry :) ^
You may not think the Bible is credible – and I agree but thats what we are debating about. What I am saying is there are many different versions thus not one understanding of it.
Did I read your comment correctly? You think transgender people are “damaging and wrong” and “a horrible atrocity.”
Are you being serious?
Yes you read my comment correctly. I think transgenderism is damaging and wrong and a horrible atrocity, I’m very serious.
@ Lumi Bast
Why on earth would you think that?
-Because it’s a mental illness (if you feel so horrible about your real gender that you need to change it or you’d rather die then you need mental help)
-Because it causes people to lie about their real gender
-Because in the case of FTM they cut off their breasts
-Because if changing your genitals was possible (genital mutilation) they would do it and that’s wrong
-Because it’s wrong people can go in the wrong bathrooms, dressing rooms, etc
-Because it’s offensive to people who identify their real gender that somebody can pretend to be it
-Because sometimes people don’t tell people they’re interested in their real gender which they should as soon as possible
-Because they’re insulting their real gender and they’ll never be their new one
I’m shocked that a gay person can be so bigoted about transgender people.
I don’t see how my sexual orientation has do with it, just because I’m attracted to women exclusively doesn’t mean I’m going to support something evil
Lumi, you sound exactly like the homophobes who call us evil for being gay. Can’t you see that?
1. Homosexuality is not a choice, while changing your gender is
2. There is nothing wrong with being homosexual, but there is something wrong with being transgender
You’ve just backed up my last comment.
“1. Homosexuality is not a choice, while changing your gender is”
How stupid are you? http://www.world-science.net/exclusives/050511_transfrm.htm
Its awful people like you who scream bigot at everyone else but can’t take the time to educate yourself from your own bigotry – you are a disgrace to all gay people.
You’re absolutely right, Will. I can’t believe that a gay person who is so vocal (and rightly so) about the bigotry of homopobes can in turn show the exact same bigotry towards Transgender people. At first, I honestly thought Lumi was trying to be satirical or something, but no – she’s just a transphobe.
I know, BennieM. I was shocked to see such blatant stupidity and prejudice – she can’t even see how hypocritical she is. Its people like her who are an insult to those who want equality. She’s clearly a small minded bigot who boo-hoo’s about persecution of herself… she sounds like one idiotic selfish cow.
@BennieM and Will
I find it sad that someone who clearly gets that orientation is not a choice – sticks to a quasi right wing Christian ideology about transgenderism being “wrong” and a choice.
Its a choice in a similar way that a gay person can choose to be in denial and live a lie in misery!
They CHOOSE to go through with the body mutilation to line up with their mental illness. I also want equality based on sexual orientation, not based on gender “identity”. Gay people staying in the closet is different because transgender people are so sad and depressed that they would rather die if they can’t MUTILATE THEIR BODY….. they need severe mental help. It’s like encouraging people to cut for fun.
The only disgrace to gay people is transpeople for trying to join or cause when they have NOTHING to do with us. The T needs to stay out of LGB(QA).
Well said again Lumi. Indeed, Christians are called to love everybody include homosexuals. However, they are mandated to hate every sin, including homosexuality. I must therefore agree with you that any christian that supports homosexuality is DEFINITELY not a real christian
Fake troll again.
mandated to hate every sin
Like eating shellfish?
No, you would like us to believe that “Christianity” is homophobic – its not true.
I can only assume that the people who claim Christianity is not homophobic have never read Deuteronomy, Leviticus or Romans.
I have read Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Romans (which I quote below). I have also considered the context of them and as a gay Christian can find nothing which aims to treat gay people as unequal or unfairly.
There’s nothing sinful about homosexuality
Its how some individuals and some specific organisations interpret those passages of the Bible that is homophobic.
Having read them, I do not regard them as homophobic – when you consider small passages in isolation then they can be argued that way (but then thats what bigots do). Looking at everything in context I dont find the Bible homophobic.
I don’t agree with it because its not rational. Some of the poetry is beautiful, but I don’t follow the beliefs. But I don’t agree that it is inheritently homophobic.
Leviticus 18:22-24 – Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled
Leviticus 20:13 – If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads
Romans 1:26-27 – Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God
I have read all those passages before.
If you read them in context of who they were written to at the time, the issues they had and the entire content of the passage surrounding it, then you will see that the argument is not saying being gay is wrong.
Cherry picking Bible verses either to condemn gay people or to condemn Christians is unintelligent and lacks sophistication.
I suggest you consider reading this:
I suspect you will not, because “the Bible is not true so doesn’t matter” to paraphrase you – yet you feel so strongly about this that you quote Scripture!
If you are going to quote something, it helps to know about context!
I know that the Bible isn’t true but I’m using Bible verses to show how pathetic the religion is. The Bible is homophobic (also sexist, racist, pro-slavery, and pro-murder among many things)
What you’re doing is trying to justify homosexuality using a book that’s clearly against it.
Yet you cherry pick and pull verses out without understanding them.
I have given you a piece of information to consider.
Perhaps you would do us gay Christians the decency of going away and reading it, rather than just cherry picking verses (like the Christian bigots do – you are behaving no differently to them) or insulting us.
Until then I will regard you approach as uniformed, arrogant and offensive.
I’ve read it before thanks
If you’re such an expert on this book of evil then you tell me what it means
I have given you a document to read that explains it in detail. If you are not prepared to go and do some reading, then why should I be surprised by your bigoted Christophobic reaction and your failure to support your fellow LGBT person
1. It’s LGB
2. I read it, and what is see is an absurd fairy tale in support of animal sacrifice that doesn’t support your viewpoint
Fortunately, I have a bit more of a more tolerant and accepting approach to you (it would appear).
You see – I do not think if someone disagrees with me that they are wrong.
I do think you are wrong about who is and who is not a Christian and it is incredibly judgemental for you to reach a conclusion.
I also think your attitude towards transgender people is outrageous and inhumane.
Well if you were a true Christian you wouldn’t like me for
-Getting tattoos (in the future)
-Wear men’s clothes
And as long as you belong to a religion that hates what I am, is against me, and wants to deny me rights (plus is sexist, racist, etc) then I can’t tolerate that
No, people can disagree with me without being wrong, but it’s not wrong that Christian = homophobic
Christian means you follow the Christian Bible, which is homophobic
Transgenderism is outrageous and inhumane
Well, my best friend Graeme who is a gay Christian (and some of his Christian mates like me – and I am gay). His female minister was at his house last time I went for dinner – she has a tattoo. Graeme occasionally swears. Diana (his minister) used to work for Amnesty and was part of their advisory panel on gender issues and orientation awareness.
And no doubt, you will say (from your point of view) they are not Christians – I profoundly disagree (as much as I disagree with them about their faith). I also find your judging people you have not met and not had the opportunity to know about what they think, how they interpret and see things is bigoted.
As for your position on transsexuals – its prehistoric.
I normally agree with many of your points – on these issues I find your positions damaging, judgemental and wrong.
I had posted this up there, but it was meant for here
and as i said in my last post, you do not have the right to say who is and who isnt. there are countless branches of christianity. many different translations of the bible. you cant judge millions of people based on your own experiences. there are far too many factors to think about.
if the problem is exactly how you see it, christianity would have to be outlawed and that goes against the equality that LGBT rights are fighting for.
Then Lumi you live in a small world. I know many Catholics none of whom are homophobic.
You must live in Sweden or something LOL
Catholics are damn homophobic for the most part, especially the priests, archbishops, the Pope.
“Catholics are damn homophobic for the most part, especially the priests, archbishops, the Pope”
Include yourself in that list there, sweetie. Its rare we see such a blatantly idiotic bigot on this site like you.
Lumi, your knowledge of religion appears to be limited.
I absolutely agree with you!
No, I didn’t because homophobes are against something perfectly normal and not wrong but I’m against something not normal and wrong
“No, I didn’t because homophobes are against something perfectly normal and not wrong but I’m against something not normal and wrong”
Who said its wrong? You? You sound like one of those Christian freaks, all me-me-me and a bunch of idiot hypocrites (sound familiar?)…. I’m not entirely sure you left the church at all.
Well said Lumi. Christianity and the Bible views homosexuality as a sin. Therefore, when an Archbishop gives a PERSONAL opoinion that contradicts the Bible, you don’t need any further proof to know that he is one of the false prophets that the Bible warns against. Indeed, ‘by their fruits, we shall know them’.
Fake troll again. Probably from Taunton.
Clearly you do not know your ten commandments, not only do the ten commandments make no reference to “having sexual relationship ONLY in a marital union between a man and a woman” as you claim – but you seem to forget these commandments (which any genuine real Christian would know):
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
Thou shalt not bear false witness
It is not for YOU to judge whose name is written in the book of life according to Scripture.
You are behaving in a mos unChristlike manner
The Archbishop of Wales should be congratulated for loving his neighbour and demonstrating the grace and honour that God would expect.
Grace and honor? Your God is sexist, homophobic, and racist and supports slavery and murder, and has murdered countless people itself. There’s nothing graceful or honorable about it
Jesus also said that he did not come to abolish the law but fulfill it, so the Old Testament laws in Leviticus still stand
Pick and mixing your Bible verses again.
Thats what Keith, Ken and Aiden do.
I don’t see how you can ignore how horrible a book is that
-Is pro slavery
-Is pro rape
-Is pro human and animal sacrifice
-is pro murder (many committed by your God)
-Brainwashes you/doesn’t allow you to think
-Demands you to mutilate the genitals of baby boys
-Is anti science
-Claims the earth is only 6000 years old
-Has a god that can’t even tell what a day is
-Says if you kill an
-Is pro polygamy
-Is anti tattoos
-Claims all the animals in the world could fit on one average sized boat
etc etc etc etc
And you expect me to take you seriously? LOL
Ignore that “-Says if you kill an” part I couldn’t find the verse I was looking for
Anti tattoos, where?
Leviticus 19:28- You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the Lord
It seems every Christian anti-tattoo argument is based primarily on one thing…a single verse from Leviticus:
“You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh on account of the dead or tattoo any marks upon you: I am the LORD.”
Does this verse really condemn all tattoos?
Read properly, no!
Leviticus 19:26-31 deals with pagan practices and God’s prohibitions against adopting those practices. In verse 28, God is warning the Jewish people about a pagan practice at funerals, where pagans would mutilate/mark themselves to appease their false gods. The pagans hoped that by cutting themselves and marking images/symbols of idols on their bodies, that they would obtain favour in the afterlife from their false gods, both for themselves and for those who just died.
So who’s to say the God doesn’t think all tattoos are a pagan thing?
Who’s to say he does?
Did your former pastor tell you that?
Nobody told me that, I’m just saying that once something’s in the Bible, you can’t just change it if it’s not clear
and yet you seem so convinced that the Bible text banned tattoos – it does not.
How many more texts would you have a certain impression of, which there could also be other views?
I am certain of my interpretation of the Levitical verse you have given – you are/were certain of yours.
See the Bible can be interpreted differently.
There is way too much evil in the Bible to defend all of it, there’s no point in arguing because I’m never going to change my mind on how evil Christianity is
Paul tried to sum up the commandments, and you seem to pick and mix your scripture and choose not to adhere to this one:
“Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law” Romans 13
Well the Bible isn’t true so it doesn’t matter what the Bible says
I agree its not true.
Its not homophobic though – although trolls like Ken would like us to believe that it is.
LOL yes it is
The Bible also mentions husband and wife, how they should join together blah blah
I don’t believe in the Bible, but I do believe having read it in detail and looked at the context (not just cherry picked verses) that it is not homophobic. I have many gay friends who are Christians (and I do believe them to be Christians) and I find it horribly obnoxious and offensive that you feel able to judge them having not met them. They do not judge you for being gay, but you judge them because they have a faith (how does that work!?!).
I don’t share Marius’ faith, but I do agree with him that its important to look at the context of what is meant by a passage, rather than a segment in isolation.
If I read my paramedic guidance I do not just cherry pick a procedure, I read around it to understand what I should do and why. If I read fiction I do not just read page 124 and believe I understand the story. If I read a law report I do not just pick something out of the middle.
I find the Bible interesting but illogical but not homophobic when read in context.
I’ve read the Bible before, I used to be Christian, I understand the context and it’s still no excuse for the blatant homophobia.
(Plus other evil viewpoints of the Bible)
Ah! Sounds like bitterness from your experience when you were a Christian then.
You told us the other day that you used to be homophobic – is this where the link is?
Not all Christians are homophobic, and just because when you went to church you heard people preaching that this is the case does not mean that gay people can not be Christian and its offensive to suggest that is the case.
I used to be homophobic because I used to be Christian
Christian = homophobic
The bitterness I have is against ALL the evil in that religion/its book
I DESPISE Christianity in fact for how evil it is
See there you are compartmentalising again.
Now I can only accept what you tell me as being true about you. You were a Christian and you were homophobic.
That does not mean every Christian is homophobic.
My Aunt is a Christian and she is tee total, not every Christian is tee total.
So Lumi used to be a Christian and homophobic and she STILL IS transphobic.
That seems to be it, BennieM
My views on transgenderism have nothing do with religion- I found out about transgenderism on my own through TV and internet. I always will be transphobic because transgenderism will always be wrong- I don’t need any religion to tell me that.
“I always will be transphobic because transgenderism will always be wrong- I don’t need any religion to tell me that.”
My god, what a disgusting hypocrite you are. You demand tolerance, but feel its is “wrong” to show tolerance to others. Who said transgender is wrong anyway? The same people who say being gay is wrong? Its people like you that make me sick.
How do you rationalise that being transgender is wrong.
So far all I see is you using the same arguments against transgenderism than some fundamentalist theists use against homosexuality. You seek acceptance of homosexuality because it is not wrong – yet you can not do the same for someone transgender? Where do you base your decision on bring transgender being wrong – I just do not see it. I find it shocking and appalling that someone should attack another minority with the vehemence that you do
Transgenderism is a CHOICE because they choose to go through with the “treatment”
Transgenderism is WRONG because it’s a harmful mental illness
Transgenderism is WRONG because it causes you to mutilate your body
Transgenderism is WRONG because you can never truly change your gender
Transgenderism is WRONG because it causes people to lie about their real gender
Transgenderism is WRONG because people are sad excuses for their “new” gender
Transgenderism is WRONG because it’s going against your real gender
Transgenderism is WRONG because they go in the wrong bathrooms, dressing rooms, etc
I’m not going to accept something like that
Being gay is harmless and gay love is beautiful <3 It's also not a choice :)
What an awful bigoted and small minded creature you are, Lumi Bast. And stupid. Try educate yourself before you peddle that nonsense here, you twisted cretin. Jut about everything you said is wrong.
You disgust me.
Wow, that really is a mixed message.
Thumbs down- SMH
All I did was ask the guy to explain
“All I did was ask the guy to explain”
Because you’re a bigot. And no one thinks bigots have a valid opinion other then to peddle their own hateful bile.
Minister, go spread the word!
Once again – civil marriage is not a matter of faith.
Maybe not, but I welcome the Archbishops support!
This. Religions need to stay out of civil marriage.
Even when they support it?
Thats very churlish of you.
I appreciate the man’s comments, but if a religion is against homosexuality, somebody that belongs to that religion’s comments don’t mean anything
So you believe stereotyping and judging people is acceptable – without exploring what they are saying.
Makes you no better than the homophobic bigots you are shouting against.
The Archbishop is clearly not homophobic, read his words.
Lumi, sometimes I think you should take a step back from the compputer and think about what you’re saying, You come across as very hostile to anyone who doesn’t agree with you, even other people from the LGBT community. your opinions about transgender people are appallingly ill-judged and now you are coming out with statements like ‘ALL Christians are homophobes’ which is so not true, and dismissing the very good, sensible and powerful opinion of a man in a senior position in the church who can only do good for everyone by taking this stand on the issue. For goodness sake, calm down a little and think about things, before you turn everyone against you and they stop listening to you even when you do make sense.
I only stereotype when it’s true. All true Christians are homophobic.I know the Archbishop isn’t homophobic, therefore he’s not Christian.
@ Ben Foster
I know exactly what I’m saying. Of course I’m going to be hostile against a religion that’s homophobic and sexist and a lesbian, plus the fact that the religion is pro slavery and pro murder among many things.
It’s also LGB, not LGBT. Transgenderism has nothing to do with sexual orientation, it’s like apples and dorian fruits.
Somebody can be pro LGB rights and same sex marriage, but if they are they can’t be a true Christian.
I think Ben is entirely right you should take a step back from the keyboard.
You have no right to judge who is and is not a Christian.
Do I have a right to say I do not believe you are an atheist, because you once were a Christian? No
It seems if it doesnt fit in the nice little boxes you have then its wrong. Sorry, sweetie life doesnt always fit in boxes that we make.
Atheist = somebody who doesn’t believe in a god
Christian = somebody who believes in the Christian Bible and the God in it
Like I said, it’s like somebody claiming to support animal rights but working at at burger joint where the animals get tortured before hand and they wear leather.
I didnt say you were not an atheist, just that I was in no place and had no right to judge. Just like you have no right to judge another person on their faith or lack of.
Just because you had a particular theology when you were a Christian does no mean all Christians have the same theology (although I expect the preachers at many American churches would have you believe such things – its not true).
Christianity = following the Christian Bible
There’s no argument there
Your interpretation of the Bible is definitely not the only one, sweetie
@Lumi, I must admit to enjoying your comments here. It is NOT up to any CHURCH or RELIGION to LEGITIMATE CIVIL MARRIAGE. It is a CIVIL marriage. CIVIL. C.I.V.I.L. (ooh, getting all @carrie for a second, with the upper-case and all!). And rest.
We can’t have it both ways – when a homophobic religious bigot spouts rubbish about CIVIL marriage I tell them to keep out of civil matters that do not concern them. That’s the real point – it doesn’t concern them. Morgan is concerned about the impression ‘uncaring and unsympathetic’ views have on his church. So his ‘support’ is really about the negative impression homophobia is having on his faith.
Too little too late Dr Morgan – take your faith and your concerns – and keep out of MY business.
Recognise your allies.
Recognise your allies
What wonderful and wise words from a very brave man! What he has said is truly from a caring Pastor of his flock. He is putting pastoral care to the forefront of his ministry which is what ministry is all about. He seeks ways of reconciling the very real need for the pastoral care of everyone in his flock [and beyond], of whatever orientation, with the teachings of the Bible on which the Church was founded and which are often seen to be in conflict with our daily lives.
He recognises that long term and committed relationships are not to do with dogma, rules and regulations but everything to do with two people making a firm, lifelong commitment to each other.
What many people too often forget is that marriage is given to each other – the two partners in the couple – it is not “bestowed” by the Church or its Ministers.
Please may we hear from more Churchmen and women who are supportive, preaching love instead of hate! “Thank you”, Dr Morgan, for your wise and brave words!
Absolutely spot on, Bex! If any church adhered to everything the bible said there I doubt if there would be any christianity or monotheism for that matter. Stoning women to death for adultery is permitted in the old testament, just as one example. Even Lord Carey admits that marriage isn’t owned by the church, especially civil marriage tha thas no religious component. Clearly the archbishop understands the difference, unlike the majority in his hierarchy.
Even monogamy only became fashionable for Christians because they adopted Roman ways.
Oh balls, another bloody Church type spouting his mo…
…wait, he said what? He gets it?! Hallelujah!
I’ve never felt rage towards any religion as much as I have towards Christianity recently. And then a sensible Archbishop comes along. Maybe I won’t go on my murderous rampage after all.
I completely agree with him saying that it leads gay people to feel ‘unwanted, unloved and sinful’.
Religion for the most part has been at the root of homophobia if you look at its history. Very few faiths have been exempt but the majority or all have been complicit and have NEVER taken responsibility for it or held accountable because of political correctness. We are the last group of people who are owed an apology. What better way than to support equal civil marriage? Dr. Morgam has demonstrated what being a christian is all about in the truest sense of the word.
Well done Archbish! This goes to show that not all Christians are like the inappropriately named ‘Christian’ Institute.
see i could believe in a christ that accepts all. the main reason im an athiest is because the stance of christianity on many issues lacks constency with the teachings of christ. its cos of this i can never believe in a god.
i often say its people like this who are the future of any organised religion. the damage done when somebody speaks out against marriage equality is a blow to the church as well as society.
Strange reason for being an atheist. I’m an atheist because although some of the basic messages make sense – be nice to people, behave responsibly, don’t judge, forgive, etc – all the magical fairy tale stuff that you’re supposed to believe as true is, to quote Roger the Alien from American Dad, “like the diaries of a madman”.
well i didnt decide this morning, im talking about my child hood.
i love debating religion, but im not out to convert people into atheist. i like to challenge beliefs but i would never use it to compare intelect. its a bit insulting.
but if you wanted to do that you could just look at my spelling ;)
In spite of the praise that has been and is likely to be heaped on this man’s statement, I say, “What has civil marriage got to do with the church? Nothing – and that’s the point.” Clergy should acknowledge and accept gay people into their congregations if they wish, but have no say on the law preventing others from living their lives as they would wish.
Why not just welcome his comments of supporting civil marriage – rather than say thanks, but its nothing to do with you!
Surely LGBT people in the UK have not been under attack by religious people with such ferocity as we have recently?
Therefore, surely its good to welcome some saying “Hang on there” to other Christian leaders and supporting equal civil marriage.
Isn’t it churlish to attack an ally, whether we think he should be an ally or not – is that not us judging what others should think?
Because the religion that they follow is homophobic and just because one person that is supposedly of their religion supports it, the religion is still against homosexuality and same sex marriage
It must be very lonely to have to compartmentalise everyone into little boxes that you think they will fit into.
I’m not compartmentalizing…. Christianity is against homosexuality and same sex marriage, Christians supporting LGB rights and same sex marriage is like someone saying they support animal rights but they work at a burger stand where the meat comes from tortured animals and they wear leather while doing it
You have decided that if someone does not agree with something that SOME Christians do not believe in then they are not a Christian.
Thats compartmentalising, sweetheart.
No, what I’m saying is if somebody doesn’t believe in what the Bible says, they’re not a Christian. Even if you take Leviticus out of the argument it still says that homosexual sex is unnatural and an error, and homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Thats the theology that was taught at the church you went to – not all churches share that theology or interpretation of the Bible.
I don’t believe it at all.
But, I do know that my friends who are Christians and who are gay or pro gay are more Christian than the Archbishop of York, WBC, Anglican Mainstream etc etc.
You might not have shared their theology when you were a Christian – that does not mean you can say they are not a Christian.
Your shouting that they are not Christians does not change anything, does not achieve anything.
The Archbishop of Wales wants LGBT rights – we should welcome that. Welcoming him does not include doubting his faith.
ciivil marriage isn’t the concern of the church, but this man has stated his view publically and as the Archbishop of Wales his opinion will surely carry some weight with his ‘flock’. It can only be for the common good. It might even sway some people who weren’t sure where they stood until now. I say good man, Archbishop, and may there be more like him.
I don’t share his faith – but I recognise that I will not always agree about everything with everyone – and the fact the Archbishop supports my right to have a civil marriage, I thank him and find it odd that anyone would wish to attack him about this. It seems self defeating the argument that some are bringing saying that he should not have said such things.
Havent people been calling for church leaders who agree with civil marriage to speak out – then people get upset when they do – weird!
I agree. Civil marriage has nothing to do with any religion and it should be a separate argument from religious marriage (there actually is no legitimate argument against civil marriage for homosexual couples)
Its wrong not to accept the good words of the Archbishop and to basically say he is lying in what he says (you have said that he’s not a Christian – which is not your or my place to judge!)
I appreciate what he said, but he’s not Christian. Being Christian means following the Christian Bible.
and clearly only your interpretation of that, if their theology is not that you think it should be then of course they are not a Christian. whatever!
It’s not my interpretation, the Bible is obvious in what it says. The Christian religion is based off of that Bible and following it.
Sweetheart if you believe there is only one interpretation of the Bible then you have not explored it very much!
Trust me, I’ve explored it lots
Let me copy and paste this from my other post. The Bible-
is homophobic, sexist, racist, pro slavery, Is pro rape, Is pro human and animal sacrifice, is pro murder and infanticide(many committed by God), absurd, anti science, pro polygamy, anti tattoos
lies, brainwashes people/doesn’t allow people to think, demands people to mutilate the genitals of baby boys
claims the earth is only 6000 years old
has a god that can’t even tell what a day is
claims all the animals in the world could fit on one average sized boat
-That goes to show how stupid it is
As far as the homophobia goes, it’s very blatant to me in lots of translations. If you can point me out to a few legitimate sources that disprove what I’m saying, I’d be happy to read them.
Thats your interpretation of the Bible, and on some of it I would personally agree.
I do think you are blinkered if you think that your interpretation is the only one that there is of the Bible.
I am sure there are people who have as strong a view as you but believe that God and Scripture does not condemn homosexuality, female leaders or tattoos (!)
Well, while the tattoo verses and some of the homosexual verses can be debated, there is no debating the sexism of the Bible, but that’s another story
I think that someday Christianity might be more accepting of LGBs, just like they’re mostly accepting with race now, but currently I can’t tolerate a religion that treats me horribly
Lumi Bigot more like.
Of course I’m going to extremely DESPISE a religion that follows a book of evil and has treated me so horribly
Let’s hope that this is the start of something positive? after me now … if you please …’Things can only get better’ can only get better can only get better ♫ ♪♫ ♪♫ ♪
It could actually get a lot worse but I like your optimism!
Lumi, I don’t think you properly understand the way things are in the UK. You’re judging the situation here from a very close-minded American set of values.
I entirely agree!
1. It could be like Saudi Arabia etc where being gay = death
2. Yeah the US sucks when it comes to LGB treatment/rights (as far as first world countries go), I wish it was different
I agree the US is patchy when it comes to LGBT rights.
It could be worse.
I think FranklyBewildered was also referring to your view of the church. Things are somewhat different in the UK to the US – we don’t have as many right wing Christian groups as you. We have a range of theologies in different churches. You seem not to accept that. Thats either due to your lack of knowledge or blinkered view.
Well I live in a state that’s extremely homophobic but homophobia is everywhere
I also don’t accept a religion that’s blatantly against me, I know plenty and I know that I can’t support a religion full of evil
Not all Christians are like those you have experienced.
Well I’ve yet to meet a Christian that was nice to me (and none of this I’ll-be-nice-to-you-but-I’m-against-homosexuality etc stuff). I’ll believe it when I see it.
I still believe that the Bible is homophobic though
If you lived in the UK I would suggest you came to dinner with me and I would invite Graeme and his male partner round.
I think you would find more of the “Christian” in both of them than some of the belligerent homophobes that many vocal right wing Christians are. They are not out to convert, just nice people who have a faith and happen to be gay.
Not all Christians are like the ones you have experienced. I have also experienced some like that though!
Not everyone interprets the Bible the way you do. I have no idea who is right and who is wrong. Nor do I care.
PS If you were ever to come to dinner – transgender would be off the conversation topics ;-)
Where do you live Marius – my favourite gay Christian friend is also called Graeme (spelled that way). He has mentioned someone called Marius (keeps laughing that his mother must have liked Les Mis)
Well I’m vegetarian soon to be vegan so it would be limited choice of restaurants!
Hey, while I still disagree with Christianity, as long as a person isn’t anti LGB then we’re cool for the most part :)
Well I know a very good vegetarian restaurant that I believe does decent vegan food (not vegan myself but from reputation it is good). ;-)
I doubt they would be judgemental about LGB since they are gay themselves!
I am based just outside Brighton – is it the same Graeme – he’s a landscape gardener.
Well shame I’m broke and live on the opposite side of the ocean! :(
No the Graeme I know is not a landscape gardener and lives elsewhere
“Hey, while I still disagree with Christianity, as long as a person isn’t anti LGB then we’re cool for the most part”
Except when they’re bigoted freaks to transgendered people, then you totally agree with them it seems.
Not too bright are you?
Is there anyone in the whole world who keeps all of these?
I’m always wishing I could next door’s slave. He’s pretty cute. Darn. No heaven for me!
I think I’m ok on the killing, stealing, lying and covetting. I’m nice to my parents, too. The rest are a bit tricky. But frankly I think people who don’t kill, steal, lie or covett are getting along ok.
I do the coveting sometimes, does that make me a bad person?
Here is a Buddhist view of the issue:
‘If someone comes to me and asks whether [homosexuality] is okay or not, I will ask… ‘What is your companion’s opinion?’ If you both agree, then I think I would say, if two males or two females voluntarily agree to have mutual satisfaction without further implication of harming others, then it is okay’ – Dalai Lama.”
The Lama seems to know what he’s talking about.
Terrific, isn’t it? Buddhism at its best will always put the emphasis on personal responsibility and not harming others.
I agree that this is very brave of him. But his wording is a bit naive. To say that [We] “Claim” to be treated as second class citizens and vilified is ridiculous. If anyone can deny either fact then they live on another planet. We clearly are not given the same rights as straight people and being told we are sinners damned to hell makes us villains.
I think what he is trying to say is that some Christians do not see their actions as being homophobic or damaging, but they are. I think he is trying to speak to the church – not to LGBT People. I think he is challenging them not to assume that their actions are right and LGBT peoples are wrong. He is saying LGBT people deserve to be treated with identical love, honour, grace, support and integrity as any other person.
…aw give the guy a break. After all this is not the sort of language ministers of the Abrahamic cults of evil are taught in seminary. This dude was flying in the dark when he sat down to write his (rather excellent) piece so if he dropped in a couple of words that get your back up try seeing the bigger picture as he sees it. What will be interesting though is how the media handles it if at all. Carey and Williams will be apoplectic with hatred and rage……..then there’s the Daily Wail and Smellagraph …Interesting times, it’s just a pity that young men like David Crouch and Kenneth Weishuhn Jr have to lose their lives in the fight for equality.
Not often we entirely agree on issues such as this, but I think the Archbishop should be given a break – what he has written is excellent. I imagine he sweated over the words, knowing that each nuance might be interpreted in different ways. I think personally he got it pretty much right – ok, I would have changed one or two words (if I was in his position – which would be never!). However, its a very welcome statement, and probably (as you rightly say) not the sort of thing he is usually used to writing, and will have taken some thinking about and internal debating.
….above… hard to have consistency from a deity invented in Constantine the Great ‘s back room around 445 CE when he needed a deity to give his reign the legitimacy required of all emperors, kings and assorted despots since the Egyptian Old Kingdom. Even the requirement to be born of a virgin and the ability to do magic tricks with water, including walking on it was thrown in for good measure. Old Condy though was satisfied with that, he wanted a “god” dude that could bring people who had been dead for a week, back to life, which was if you ask me a bit like over doing it.
Old Condy though wasn’t**
Erm… rubbish! Runs away.
But it is true that Constantine’s face is that of Je$us’ (as regarded by them religious fowks on ‘holy’ sites (ie. “Give us your money” sites)); also Alexander the Grr-eat when the dashing young jew prince, Je$us, is a hot blond saving the people and producing fish and that! Not that I would ever cast aspersions on the hard work and toil of artisans in early civilisation, in the middle east and the Med, it is fair comment that early Christian artisans just weren’t very good at depicting faces! Hence, we have the faces of others instead of the true face of our saviour, the Lord Je$us Christ. Plus the Renaissance artists who perpetuated the reimagined face of Je$us for lots of money. Holy-holy, praise the lord! Not that I would ever suggest that a man known as Je$us ever existed, it’s just that very few cared to note his existence at the time period given for the new testament and that it would point to fabrication circa 425 lil council meeting… Bless!
you should reply, had i not been such a troll wanabe i wouldnt have seen this xD
the first zeitgeist movie really interested me, on a similar note to that. it was really interesting to see how all the different faiths were so closely linked in their stories. im not so clued up on this but if you can suggest a good docu/book id love a watch/read.
god for a minute i thought he was Catholic….
Sorry, I would sit here a more satisfied person, regardless of my sexuality, if I could abolish religion completely henceforth! Ping! Gone. So I do not CARE what this man says, or how he feels about this issue, one bit. This is a matter for government alone, and not for him or his christian coven to collude.
In the meantime, I should point out to the thick heads above, that linguists can make better assumptions of the meanings of words used in the bibble in the 21st century than was available for reference at the time of the bibble’s translation. That revelation throws serious light on the whole issue of homosexuality even being mentioned in first place. Ergo, not until these peddlers of the godsh!t transcend to this century and leave their murky past behind will I listen! So a gentle plea of “Get the Bishops out of Parliament” is typed! “Shoplifters of the world, unite and take over! Hand it over.” Bless.
Well is goes to show that disestablishment does wonders for independent thinking, the leadership of the Church in Wales seems somewhat in advance of those of the Church of England.
AT LAST … a Christian leader who behaves like a Christian and as a Christian should!!!!
I’m really pleased to see Barry Morgan’s comments on here as he represents the Christian majority in this country.
Unfortunately, it’s the views of the extreme minority that gain most attention and you’d be forgiven for thinking that all people of faith hold such negative opinions, when we really don’t.
He’ll not be the next Archbishop of Canterbury, but at least he’s offered up a contrary viewpoint and direct rebuttal to George Carey’s stupid comments last week.
On the contrary, he represents the views of NON christians and homosexuals. The majority of christians understand clearly that homosexuality is a sin. It is therefore not surprising that the only applause he is recieving is from homosexuals and athiests.
“The majority of christians understand clearly that homosexuality is a sin”
No, they don’t. Only a vocal minority of closet case muppets and bigots like you think that. This man will receive a lot more support then you and your kind do, you’re intellectual dinosaurs.
There speaketh a man (Ken) who clearly does not understand the ten commandments or the concept of loving ones neighbour.
How unChristian, how bigoted. How judgemental – how so unlike Christ.
Its a shame that the phrase Gandhi used applies to so many Christians (and definitely IMHO to Ken)
“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ”
Pat H – your welcoming of this loving and honourable missive from the Archbish of Wales is a strong endorsement of the view of the majority of Christians. We need to be strong and stand against the bigotry of people like Ken!
No, that’s your opinion Ken. All human relationships can be sinful, but to claim that homosexual relationships, by their very nature are sinful is a gross distortion.
He’s offered a rebuttal that is strong and is rooted deeply in genuine Christian values.
He has tried to challenge his members and inspire them to be neighbourly.
He has said all human beings should be treated honourably.
He is a sound man for that.
I hope this is the first of many more people in positions of spritiual and secular leadership showing concern for the consequences of their words.
Gay people cannot escape feeling habitaully victimised while they are continually demonised and marginalised.
Perhaps these profund debates that are expected to rock society to its core, should be more about changing the manner in which gay people are identified, as different.
I applaud the courage of this man greatly.
What the major cults are doing is not just opposing our right to civil marriage but opposing the freedom of religion regarding the Unitarians, Quakers, Liberal and Reformed Judaism. Hypocrites!
Which is why the Archbishop of Wales comments are particularly welcome
The archbishop of Wales is in serious error. He should revise Mark 10:6-8.
Homosexuals hate Mark 10:6-8 because becoming one flesh is something a pair of homosexual men or two lesbians can never be. The parts of the body involved in sexual intercourse are complementary and perfectly designed for their purpose. The sexual act between man and wife is holy, and the one-flesh union speaks of an emotional and spiritual complementarity which a pair of homosexuals can never achieve. Just as they cannot do ‘one flesh’ at a sexual level, and so have to resort to mutual masturbation or pressing into penetrative duty that part of the body perfectly designed for the extraction of water from bodily waste, so they cannot do ‘one flesh’ at an emotional or spiritual level either. They are trying to solve the puzzle with only half the pieces.