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Lord Carey: Christians ‘vilified’ and ‘driven underground’ by British Courts

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  1. Because the Christians never ever do that to other people, do they Georgie?

    1. I think the thinking and ideology behind Careys words are plain wicked.

      1. billywingartenson 18 Apr 2012, 7:04am

        One should remember that the CoE is just atother catholic church but doesnt belong to rome.

        although some of their people act like RATZI is god.

    2. It is evil Christians like this spin doctor of religion named Carey who knws how to use propaganda. The Catholic Church has a Ministry of Propaganda, even Hitler learned from them. These Christians are the ones who are committing the sins they accuse others of. They fool no body but the fools who believe their lies.

  2. Get off the cross, Carey, we need the wood.

    We wouldn’t label worshippers as bigots if they didn’t ACT like bloody bigots. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck it is a bloody duck. Their rights, in regards to their beliefs – something unprovable, unmeasurable and impossible to prove sincere – begins and ends with them and goes no bloody further. When they push it in to the lives of others, they deserve to get slapped down.

    As for the cross thing – he is being deliberately inflammatory. There is NO doctrinal support for wearing a cross, indeed, you could invoke scripture to argue the opposite (the cross is close to idolatry) and there is NO practice or tradition of wearing one. Good grief, christians cannot even decide if it should be bare or occupied. This is not true of other faith practice such as the turban – which does have doctrinal support and is both a cultural and religious practice.

    1. Well written. I grew up with this nonsense and it nearly destroyed. I was 49 before I was finally free of it and able to live a fully free and happy life. It many years to undo the damage such beliefs caused.

    2. George Broadhead 15 Apr 2012, 5:42pm

      Keith Porteous Wood, executive director of the National Secular Society (NSS) said: “Being required to respect others equally does not compromise the ability to worship or manifest religion… Lord Carey is not just wrong, but the truth is the opposite of what he asserts. Far from the UK being less intolerant than the rest of the world on religion, it is perhaps the most religiously tolerant country in the world.”

      Please note and consider giving the National Secular Society, a staunch supporter of LGBT rights, your support.

  3. This insipid desperation just portrays them as immature brats. Now that their bullying is being questioned they are throwing all of their toys out of the pram.

  4. A vilified group with a religious leader (for Anglicans anyway) as head of state and one working deep underground from their guaranteed seats in Parliament.

    A vilified group who organise bullying campaigns, such as the Campaign 4 Marriages petition, against any who wish to live in a way they disagree with rather than offering the hand of friendship to work past those differences and allow both groups to live their own ways.

    A vilified group whom the majority of the nations press support and who get specially allocated time on national TV.

    Oh to be vilified in such a way.

    1. Seriously, I too have some reservations about poorly thought out Equality laws (and their unintended consequences) but there’s a constructive way to work towards amending them to make them a little more flexible. This is not it, and comes across as whiny and arrogant.

      1. How flexible do we have to be to have our rights superseded by someone else’s superstitious beliefs?

        1. Not very, but we are currently struggling to get religious marriage equality legalised because of the inflexible equality laws might force religions who don’t want to do them to do them. No one wants that. Needs amending.

          1. Why are the equality laws preventing equality in marriage – I would argue the fact government are bringing forth proposals to ensure same sex couples are able to marry does (in part) demonstrate that equality law has encouraged government to develop law that ensures fairness and equity.

          2. Absolute bollocks!

            There is a dirty campaign going on , that’s all, and I sincerely hope you haven’t been deceived by it…

          3. Whose campaign, John?

          4. There is a precedent for allow religious exemptions in legislation. The Equality Act 2010 allows it for a start (don’t believe me? try and sue the RCC as a woman for not being allowed in to the priesthood. Their right to discriminate is protected).

            Claiming that a change in the law will lead to churches being forced to perform ceremonies is a lie. Just a lie. Nothing but a bloody lie.

  5. Johnathan Fallows 15 Apr 2012, 2:20pm

    This is like a teacher confiscating a child’s stick which he has just used to beat up another child with, and the bully cries and thinks he’s the victim. Classic religious attitude right here.

    1. It reminds me more of when I was playing cards with my 6 year old niece and some of her friends last week, and she tried to cheat. I pointed out she wasn’t allowed to do that. She tried saying “Its alright I don’t have to follow that rule”. I explained she either played by the rules or not at all. She reluctantly agreed.

      Now, Lord Carey doesn’t like it when you point out that he and his allies have to follow the rules the same as everyone else. They prefer to seek special treatment so they can cheat and have rules that don’t apply to them.

      They was Christian Sharia law.

      Here is a clear example of Lord Carey seeking to impose a Christian form of Sharia law:
      http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1265279/Anti-Christian-judges-banned-religious-cases-says-Lord-Carey.html

  6. There is absolutely no incompatibility in respecting other people and freedom of religion.

    Respecting other people includes not promoting damaging therapies, not seeking to impose theocratic principles that undermine the civil rights of others and having self awareness – issues Lord Carey seems to miss out on, massively

    1. Well said!

    2. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 15 Apr 2012, 4:49pm

      Actually, I disagree. Many religions are wildly sexist and homophobic, and that’s just for starters. Freedom of religion means, for instance, that mosques and Orthodox synagogues are free to segregate their congregations by gender, and deny various privileges and jobs to women. Personally I would love it if religions were no longer granted so many exemptions from human rights legislation, but then we’d run into problems with freedom of religion. So it’s a difficult issue.

      Although in the sense that Carey is talking about, yes, you’re spot on. But he’s talking about imposing his religion on outsiders, and that’s easier to deal with than how a religion behaves internally.

      1. What I am saying is that the freedom of religion does not require them to behave in a manner that does not respect others.

        A religions freedom is not threatened by respecting human rights.

        Sexism, homophobia etc are not evidential of religious freedom.

        Those, like Lord Carey, who link inappropriate actions and attitudes as religious freedom are entirely wrong.

    3. billywingartenson 18 Apr 2012, 7:01am

      teh answer to these bigots is their title

      LORD They think they are god. Isnt that a way to get on the superhighway to hell?

      Where is God when we need him. A catholic told me that “god gave man free will” when I question why god lets so many horrible things happen.

      Isnt “free will” just another excuse for their missing fairy of the sky.?

  7. My heart bleeds for him and his ilk! Now he knows how us gay boys and girls feel!

  8. New Aussie 15 Apr 2012, 2:26pm

    By choosing a fight to the death over gay marriage, the church should be careful what it wishes for . .

  9. And just because I am sick and bloody tired of the church and its hypocrisy this week, let us glory in this, attributed to Brendan Behan:

    Here’s a health to the Protestant Minister and his church without meaning or faith.
    For the foundation stones of his temple are the bollocks of Henry the Eighth

    In other words, Carey’s ridiculous church is a COMPLETELY manmade bloody fabrication and I bloody defy him to claim otherwise. Hundreds of years of putting up with his damned faith just because Henry was a jaffa.

  10. Dennis Battler 15 Apr 2012, 2:53pm

    What do they expect??? … they might want to stop persecuting people. But that would be obviously intelligent, logical and reasonable, attributes running counter to blind prejudice which is their most used talent. Odd how they’ve completely forgotten the biblical edict of “do unot other as you would have them do unto you” and “love your neighbour as yourself” … imagine if they actually practiced those values rather than condemnation. Perhaps that would alleviate their persecution neurosis.

    1. What has become clear is the bar to becoming a religious leader is not particularly high.

      Why there may be some some religious leaders who do great work in contrast many of them are found to be both intellectually and vocationally lazy if not limited in competency.

      Many seem to have been motivated into the job because it meets their personal power needs or because it feeds their personal prejudice – which they find biblical passages to use to support. They so often are found not to have the personality characteristic or level of biblical knowledge that many people perceive a religious leader needs to have to do the job competently.

      What is really annoying the incompetent ones is finally they are being held to account for what they say and do. They no longer have the power or respect in society that they once had and abused.

  11. he is arguing for the privilege to discriminate

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Apr 2012, 3:19pm

      It’s more about his cult losing their own power grab to inflict their beliefs on the rest of the British public who don’t give a toss what they believe in. Bigot Carey knows deep down his rabble are losing the cultural war hence this last desperate attempt at subverting the political system in the UK. They can’t even be honest about what is really galling them. The majority of them don’t like gay people very much and wished we’d all disappear. Karma is a bitch, Carey, get used to it. I’d be surprised if the ECHR will go anywhere with this one imposing religious beliefs on people because nobody is saying they can’t believe in their sky pixie. The wearing of a cross or other religious symbol in the workplace is unnecessary and I don’t care if someone is a christian or not, just don’t shove it in my face everyday. If you must wear it, cover it up, who needs to see it and what purpose does it serve other than broadcasting what one personally believes in. So what?

  12. Not true. Christians are free to believe whatever they want. They are just no longer able to demand that everyone else believes the same thing.

    1. Brilliantly put. Couldnt have said it better myself

  13. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Apr 2012, 3:02pm

    Christians being vilified? Really, Carey? Welcome to our world. His cult has been vilifying, denigrating, dehumanising, stigmatising, ostracising, inciting intolerance and discrimination against gay people throughout its history up until the present day. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black, always playing the bloody victim card when they can’t get their way. It’s a bit rich calling Cameron’s support for equal marriage nothing more than a power grab. If anything is a power grab, it’s the Anglican cult forcing it’s beliefs on a secular, multicultural society the majority of whom do not even attend regular services. Religion has absolutely NO place in one’s place of employment.

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 15 Apr 2012, 3:07pm

      I recommend Carey read the following, over and over….”Matthew 6:5-7 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.”

      That to me implies not making a show of one’s religion.

  14. Okay, now Carey has jumped the shark.

    Those are not legal arguments: you can’t try and pretend that your harassment being illegal constitutes discrimination against you.

  15. Good, back to the Catacombs for you, ex-Archbishop!

  16. Great response to Lord Careys comments here:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-lay-scientist/2012/apr/14/1?newsfeed=true

    I particularly like these comments:

    “In his latest outburst, Carey is guilty of at least three sins against his flock: he fear-mongers regarding the ability of Christians to express their faith in public, he regurgitates a slew of mythical episodes of Christian persecution, and he entirely misrepresents secularism.”

    “Lord Carey’s use of “secular conformity” is both oxymoronic and blatantly hypocritical. Secularism gives people the freedom to choose religion; Carey demands a place for “Judaeo-Christian values” in public life, and remarks ominously that the “courts of the United Kingdom require guidance.” Who are the conformists in this debate?”

    “The ability of Christians to express their faith in public is not threatened by secularism – quite the opposite. What may be threatened are the trappings of power that Archbishops and other Christian elites enjoy:

    1. : the palaces, the political offices, the media exposure and the power to shape public services. A cynic might ask whether the war on secularism had more to do with protecting their privileges than the interests of the masses.”

      “Today his achievement has been to cast his own church as a bitter, bigoted, anachronism; obsessed with homosexuals and disconnected from the concerns and views of ordinary people. That legacy is an insult to most decent Christians.”

      “When things go wrong it’s always tempting to blame other people. Christianity is in long term decline, but the cause is not some secularist war. As long as it tolerates leaders and spokesmen like Lord Carey, Christianity is perfectly capable of waging war on itself.”

  17. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 15 Apr 2012, 3:35pm

    Carey is insulting the enormous numbers of people worldwide who actually are persecuted because of their religion. He should try being Jewish. I have never seen a synagogue in the UK without mamoth security precautions due to all the attacks you get, by which I mean places being torched, people being beaten or murdered. It’s the same for Muslims, I believe, and I’m sure for members of other faiths.

    Christians in the UK are so pampered that they are called the “majority religion” or the “state religion” even though practising Christians are a minority, and all these instances of so-called persecution are simply people being told to abide by equality legislation.

    1. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 15 Apr 2012, 4:45pm

      P.S. Christians “driven underground”?!

      Do churches have two men standing outside on security duty for services? Do new members have to be carefully vetted? Do they have to be careful about bombs and conduct handbag searches? Because this is what British synagogues have to do as standard. I’ve even seem websites for small Jewish communities where they say “we won’t put up the location of our services publicly, but contact us if you want to come along,” often with a request for a reference. Are trainee clergy murdered and found in six separate bins (that poor man was gay too)? Are tombstones defaced? Are Christians afraid to mention their religion because there is a large chance that they will be verbally attacked on the spot?

      Or, on the contrary, can you simply walk freely into a church, relaxed in the knowledge that you are safe from physical attack? Do we have bishops in the House of Lords? Do Christian clergy get preferential treatment in the press? Yes? Persecution, eh?

  18. Another day, another nail in the coffin of christianity. One day – hopefully soon 0- we can add “god” to the list of Enki, Ra, Odin, Mithra, Zeus and all the other extinct bloody fictions. History sets the precedent, and the day cannot come soon enough.

  19. It’s not so long ago that manifesting homosexuality was a typically a bar to employment. I don’t recall Carey and his ilk trying to stop that – in fact, they had to be stopped doing it themselves.

    I’m all for letting Christians have jobs without having to hide their abherrant practices (such as riualised pseudo-cannibalism, for example), as long as they don’t interfere with their performance of the tasks required, and the well-being of their co-workers.

    1. Plenty of religious organisations have fought for exception from equality legislation to deny people employment based on sexual orientation. The problem here is that it if it comes to a person’s right to practise their religion by persecuting others, versus another person’s right not to be persecuted then we have to decide which right takes precedence.

  20. Unless christians leaders actually fear for their lives, hear the screams and smell the odor of the burning flesh of their fellow-believers, they will never know what they and their hateful teachings have put us through over the course of history.

    ‘nough said.

  21. Spanner1960 15 Apr 2012, 4:03pm

    Oh, you poor souls.
    Well you bastards have been victimising us for centuries, so how does it feel to have tables turned?

  22. Jock S. Trap 15 Apr 2012, 4:10pm

    Yet the Equality Act includes Christians too. They just choose to ignore it because seek to be above the law and fight for their right to discriminate.

  23. George, you’ve got “persecuted” mixed up with “don’t automatically get their own way all the time”.

    There is quite a difference between those two things. I suggest you take some time to go and learn it.

    Or, just, y’know, go…

  24. Jock S. Trap 15 Apr 2012, 4:12pm

    Carey also states that Christians are being picked on in the same way ‘Homosexuals’ were in the past. What he fails to say is that we were picked on as a direct result of his religion.

    Hypocrite. Like what the equality they’re going through is just just like the murder, torture they inflicted is the same thing. Pathetic.

    1. Jock S. Trap 15 Apr 2012, 4:13pm

      PS… picked on/persecuted … a laughable comment from Carey mind!!!

  25. And we don’t NEED to vilify you or your beliefs thanks very much, George. They’re perfectly vile enough as they are.

    I mean, reliance on faith in the unevidenced and the disproven? Original sin? Vicarious forgiveness? Eternal torment? Sexual guilt? Persecution fetishism? Rampant patriarchal misogyny? Weekly pretend cannibal feasts? That’s a moral compass all right, it’s just you have to go in the opposite direction from the one the needle points to.

  26. Ever since he was appointed (by Mrs Thatcher exercising a bit of spite against the other preferred candidate) Carey has woven a narrative of victimhood despite evidence to the contrary. He has never got over being known as the man who should never have been chosen for the job.

  27. Lord Carey seems to be deliberately causing a stir (in some very inaccurate reporting that is not based on fact – not that Lord Carey is bothered about honesty and truthfulness in what is said, provided his theocratic principles are publicised):

    In a US outlet they report that Lord Carey states “Christians were excluded from many sectors of employment because of their beliefs, ‘vilified by state bodies’ and feared arrest for expressing their views”
    http://bigpondnews.com/articles/World/2012/04/14/Christians_fear_arrest_ex-UK_archbishop_739640.html

    His views that Christians are being “framed” by “homosexual activists” is a complete lie and offensive. His language is demeaning to him and to those he represents. I would like to see how he can substantiate this.

  28. Cilia Blick 15 Apr 2012, 4:33pm

    Worra grotty little man.

    1. A man? Don’t flatter him.

  29. If we are to respect Lord Carey’s religion and religious practices, without reference to their effects on others, does he then propose that we should, for example, respect any who would claim to be Thuggee, a religious cult of assassins who killed to honour Kali?

    Doubtless, Lord Carey would consider such an idea merely ridiculous, but how does it differ from his proposition?

  30. It is the Christians who are the majority religion in the western world who are vilifying Muslims, LGBT people, minority religions etc. in the world today, driving them underground. So it it the Christians who are doing this sin they speak of not anybody else, they play the victim like they are the minority and any body with a brain knows that the Christians are the majority of people.It is the Christians who are destroying our societies by forcing their beliefs on everyone to get them to go along with their hate and persecution of minorities like Muslims, gays and minority religions. Christian psychiatrist who “pray the gay away” are frauds and fakes who use their training to destroy the lives of LGBT people, this has been proven. The Christian propaganda that they are victims is nonsense and used to trick people who are foolish enough to believe their lies and get sympathy for their evil plots to destroy any one not Christian, yes I said evil plots to destroy any one not Christian.

  31. If Lord Carey believes that those who share his theology should have special protections in law to exempt them from the civil law when they choose because of their belief systems, then should we also excuse:

    The Scientologists in France who were convicted of fraud, manslaughter and witness intimidation?

    The child abuse, rape and other assults linked to David Koresh or the Oklahoma bombing which has been deemed to be linked to the Branch Davidians?

    The Jonestown massacre in Guyana linked to “Peoples Temple”?

    or the ritual abuse by those seeking to expel witchcraft by some Congolese people based on their tribal beliefs?

    If they should not be excluded from being accountable to civil law, then why should Lord Carey or his supporters when they are homophobic or incite homophobic hatred?

  32. Warren Alexander 15 Apr 2012, 4:57pm

    Poor confused old thing

  33. If Lord Carey wishes to be able to follow his religious practices regardless of any effects on others, does he then support the right of those who would claim to be Thuggee to carry on their religious practice of killing in honour of Kali?

    I am sure he would regard this as a foolish suggestion, but what, essentially, is the difference? He seems to have devoted far more energy than thought to this matter.

  34. Apologies if I have double posted here – something odd seems to be happening when I try to post.

  35. The last thing I would want on an international flight would be an attendant ordering me about while wearing a cruficix. Kindly keep your religius beliefs out of our relationship, especially when I am compelled to interact with you.

    1. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 15 Apr 2012, 5:38pm

      Er, why would you care whether a flight attendant was wearing a crucifix, provided the crucifix wasn’t dangling in your drink or otherwise actively interfering in your life? The cases about not wearing crosses to work were about dangling jewellery being a safety hazard in nursing. It’s hardly the same as a flight attendant offering to pray with you, telling you you’re going to hell, or doing something else involving religion. The only religious discrimination I’ve ever experienced on a flight was when I was going to Israel years ago, and a couple of ultra-Orthodox men who were meant to be in the next seat kicked up a fuss with the cabin crew because they refused to sit next to women. The crew, however, behaved impeccably in a difficult situation.

      I don’t feel that someone wearing a bit of jewellery actually affects me in the vast majority of cases. Nor do I expect people to have to hide their faith from me, just as I don’t expect to have to hide my sexual orientation or atheism.

      1. Signs of religious affiliation are generally an indication that you have a crank on your hands – not the sort of person you can rely on in a crisis on a plane, for example.

        I’d prefer to have someone do their job and rescue me – rather a nutter who woul;d drop everything and start praying at the sky.

        1. If being religious meant you were a nutter who drops everything and starts praying in a crisis then the number of plane crashes, road fatalities, surgeries gone wrong etc. would be ten fold. Don’t be so stupid. Your instant prejudice and ignorance of religious people merely mirrors that which others (including LGBT) are subjected to by those who hide behind their religion to do the same to others.

          Just because Carey et al are trying to manipulate this into Gays v Religion, that doesn’t mean any of us should rise to it and give his irrational scare mongering any sort of validity.

  36. Which of the crimes on this site would Lord Carey feel should be given special treatment under the law, which should be absolved from being held responsible for their actions:

    http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

    Pope Nicholas V supporting the killing, forcible conversion and enslaving of unbelievers found in the new lands?

    The Protestant death squads in Ireland in the late 20th Century?

    The Rwanda genocide?

    The cover up of child abuse by priests in Irleand, Belgium, the US and elsewhere?

    The protection of Mugabe by the RC church?

    The mass murders of the Lords Resistance Army in Uganda?

    Christian sharia law in Uganda?

    and I could go on.

    Would Lord Carey excuse all of these crimes as being justified for special treatment because theologically “Gods will was being done”. If not, why excuse homophobia “in the name of God”?

  37. chris lowcase 15 Apr 2012, 5:54pm

    is it too late for april fools? the alienation of religion, especially from the more conservative thinkers does sort of worry me BUT its not something the rest of the society can be blamed for. if he wants to help the future of his faith he will shut up and suggest the church focus its attention on the more progressive liberal minded thinkers. they have us believe these people dont exist by hindering there advances. though i dont believe their message i think they have a greater chance of reaching people in the year 2012.

  38. It seems to be Lord Carey who can’t distinguish between Christians and bigots. The two aren’t necessarily synonymous. We are only concerned about bigots, whatever the religion or absence of it.

  39. Can any of these whiners provide just one, single example of where they have been denied their religious freedom? I can see where they have been denied the opportunity to break the law and illegally exercise bigotry, but I have yet to see any report of where they have been prevented from practising their religion. Perhaps this is biased reporting and all the stories of persecuted Christians are being suppressed by the pro-gay, pro-liberal elitist media. Then again, perhaps they are not.

  40. Hi George.
    1 – Criminalization of all public acts and statements of religious faith.
    2 – Tests acts demanding that all applicants for public employment or elected office repudiate religious belief, with dismissal if in contravention of same in private, or prosecution if in public.
    3 – Penalties for teaching religious belief to minors.
    THIS would constitute vilification and driving underground of believers in supernatural tosh. A tempting list if one were not a liberal. NOT denying dispensation from obeying the law to God-botherers. Get a bloody life.

  41. Most Christians are bigots, as they don’t support LGB rights and are blindly guided by their evil religion.
    If we have marriage equality that doesn’t affect their freeedom of religion- they aren’t required to perform these marriages. It affects our freedom of religion, not theirs.
    -If a cross isn’t in the dress code of a business, then remove it. Nobody should be required to cater to your beliefs.
    -If you use your religious beliefs to threaten violence against somebody then you will be arrested.
    -LOL at the vilified and driven underground! That’s what Christians have been doing to women, LGBs, minorities, other religions since the religion was created!

    1. Your comments clearly do apply to some christians. But I would quibble with “most”. Certainly here in the UK a significant majority (about two thirds according to recent surveys) of people who identify as christian do not feel that LGBT people should be discriminated against. In the US, Africa and globally it may very well be that most christians are homophobic. I wouldn’t want to say categorically that they are, but it wouldn’t surprise me given how depressingly commonplace homophobia is in the world.

      The vile, homophobic ones desperately want us to believe that they speak for the majority. They would love to co-opt popular support for their bigotry. But they don’t speak for anyone but their own tiny, dysfunctional constituency. Even though they claim to believe some very silly things, most christian people in this country are decent people too.

      1. @VP

        I agree. 61% of Christians support full LGBT rights in the UK (including marriage) in a recent poll.

        Those who oppose tend to be particularly vocal and certain elements of the media seem keen to publicize them. Other areas of the media are reticent about publicizing the majority view.

      2. Well their religion, Christianity, is against homosexuality so I think that those who support LGB rights aren’t real Christians

        Most Christians here in the US are horrible, I’m not sure how it is in the UK

        1. If a Christian chooses to believe in the mainstream Church’s teaching founded on 3 disparate passages in the New Testament, and refuse to acknowledge that 2 are mistranslations of ancient greek and 1 is a gross misinterpretation, then yes they will be against homosexuality. But not all do, even within the Anglican and RC church, let alone churches such as many divisions of Quakers who don’t hold with the common teaching and fully support out and proud LGBs.

          Saying that those who support LGB rights aren’t real Christians is exactly what the homophobes like to think and plays right into their hands, forcing those who question the mainstream Church’s misdirection on what the Bible (as it was originally written) actually says(or rather doesn’t say), to choose between Christianity or supporting LGBs. Maintaining that to be pro-gay you must be anti-Christian only keeps the vicious circle alive.

        2. chris lowcase 15 Apr 2012, 11:47pm

          with respect, you dont get to decide who is or isnt christian. many people follow their religion to different extremes. look at how many branches of christianity there are, its no surprise that the variation doesnt stop there.

  42. Peter & Michael 15 Apr 2012, 7:15pm

    Understandably, he thinks that some people do not deserve Equality in their personal lives, more to the point is the fact that being Gay in the eyes of the church is against the teachings of their so-called god, we are all human beings, and born Gay, so your religious faith should tend more to the sick,needy, disabled, etc, instead of picking on the minority of people, whom work and pay their taxes too. Don’t forget out taxes pay toward your church renovations, and we agree that these should be funded by yourselves, instead of keeping billions of pounds in stocks and shares. So instead of being bigots , pay your taxes like the rest of us in the real world!

  43. Public employees must work for all not only for those who believe as they do. Nobody can use their faith or beliefs to refuse to marry two people when the law gives Tim that right. If he or she doen’t agree then they are not goog public employees. The public is everyone. Mr Carey (lord is far too big for him) is quick to say that Christians are vilified but he doesn’t care when he vilifies gays and backs a cure for something that is not an illness. Do to others what you want for yoursel, if you vilify, you will be vilified. Simple

  44. darkmoonman 15 Apr 2012, 7:42pm

    Xtians are reaping the fruits of the unChrist-like behavior towards their fellow man.

  45. “It is now Christians who are persecuted; often sought out and framed by homosexual activists,” Lord Carey says according to the Telegraph.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/9203953/Britains-Christians-are-being-vilified-warns-Lord-Carey.html

    This is a serious and libellous allegation, can Lord Carey clarify who exactly he is alleging sought out and framed Christians?

    1. @Pavlos

      Exactly. He also needs to explain what information and evidence led him to making these allegations (which at first light appear scurrilous and dishonest).

  46. Ben Foster 15 Apr 2012, 9:12pm

    villified, maybe.

    Driven underground? Hardly. How many church services are held in secret rooms or hidden cellars????? Get a bit of perspective, Bishop!

    1. Ben Foster 15 Apr 2012, 9:13pm

      ooops. spelt my email address wrong before. didn’t get my gravatar! don’t want to be mistaken for a troll-name-alike.

  47. Robin Evans 15 Apr 2012, 9:13pm

    Ohh stop whining Carey – I think “underground” is the right place for Christianity…

  48. Yet again another totally over the top comment from Lord Carey using over the top words. No sense of proportion.

    Christians in the UK are not persecuted.

    1. Over the top and so over, so to speak . . .

  49. Ah,so George Carey (Lordship & free seat in Parliament because of his religion, to which he was never elected) thinks Christianity is being driven underground in UK where the head of his church is the monarch, 26 bishops get to sit in parliament withot being elected, the Church is the “Established” religion of the country, and enjoys special opt outs from the Equality Act already etc etc

    Hmmm

    1. Robert in S. Kensington 16 Apr 2012, 2:29pm

      That’s why I’ve long supported an democratically elected upper house which would mean no clerics. I also support disestablishment of state religion. It’s anachronistic, undemocratic and has NO place in a secular government. It’s a chosen lifestyle, a belief system which is mutable, nobody is born that way. It’s been at the heart of wars, oppression, subjugation of people for centuries. Just look at the Roman cult before the reformation. In fact, look at it now…centuries of paedophilia, misogyny, torturing and excecuting people to submit to its will, not that the Anglican cult has a stellar record by any stretch of the imagination given it’s promotion of institutionalised homophobia in former colonies around the world.

      Nobody should be above the law, no exceptions. This really begs for disestablishment of state religion. I would love to see a national movement take root to that effect.

  50. Welcome to our world.

  51. Dexter Morgan 15 Apr 2012, 9:59pm

    I really want this man tied to a table, with duct tape over that gap in his teeth, to stop him from lying through them. Once and for all.

  52. Carey always looks as if he doesn’t wipe properly & constantly smells of his own poop.

  53. There are some great, intelligent responses here to this horrible story.
    It makes me so angry that people like Carey – people in a position of influence – are so knowingly vindictive in order to protect their fragile fairytale. Many of these people have Oxbridge degrees and pride themselves on being philosophers as well as theologians. The mind boggles.

  54. We must keep up the fight and drive Christians underground.

    They should be seen and not heard. Just like we were.

    There is no place for religion in this world.

    ATHEISM RULES

  55. I agree with Lord Carey.

    Christians have usually put a lot of store to acting in accordance with conscience.

    Whether or not you agree Christians should be discriminated against in this way, the consequence of marginalising them is by nullifying their contributions to public life and social action, we will all be the poorer as a result, given their prolific contribution.

    1. Yeah, well maybe they should start obeying the laws, instead of whining for an undemocratic right to persecute.

    2. You believe in a theocracy or Christian version of Sharia?

    3. @JohnB

      I don’t think any reasonable people think christians should be discriminated against: I haven’t seen any calls for that. If you have, please show us.

      However if they are actively seeking to remove the human rights of LGBT people, then they should expect the consequences that George Carey is complaining about.

    4. Jock S. Trap 16 Apr 2012, 8:16am

      Christian’s are not being discriminated in any way. They are choosing to fight to be above the law of the land, Not be included in it.

      It’s all about power and the people I really feel sorry for is the Christians who don’t agree with this idiot and wish to seek a better humanity but are being unfairly dragged into the extremist point of view.

    5. “the consequence of marginalising them is by nullifying their contributions to public life and social action”

      I work in a Government call centre helping taxpayers of this country. Should I have a right to refuse to deal with a person of this country who helps pay my wages because of their religious beliefs. Should a Christian colleague be able to refuse to help a gay couple who may require assistance? Should my employer introduce an automated choice system at the beginning for callers to indicate their religious beliefs, sexuality or any other characteristic about themselves so a Government employee doesn’t have to deal with someone who goes against their religious conscience. Or should everyone act like grown ups and just treat others like human beings even if we don’t agree with whatever it is we don’t agree with?

    6. @johnB you need to leave your religion its finished in the 21st century and you know it

  56. It is laughable to suggest that christians are being driven underground when some of them have unelected seats in Parliament.

  57. Just remembered this quote from Mahatma Gandhi, and thought it most apt: “I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”

  58. Robert in S. Kensington 16 Apr 2012, 12:27pm

    JohnB doesn’ even acknowledge that the major so called “christian” denominations, Anglican and RC have been marginalising us for centuries, along with dehumanisation, denigration and vilification. Nothing has changed and they continue to do it. Their hateful rhetoric and vile, disgusting statements that equal civil marriage will herald polygamy and incest are the last straw. Bearing false witness against LGBT people seems to be de rigueur lately if you look at C4M’s petition and mission aided and abetted by both cults. Hypocrites and bigots all.

  59. David Nottingham 16 Apr 2012, 1:16pm

    Now lets get one thing perfectly clear, the Church of England doesn’t own the State, the Judiciary nor a Sovereign Parliament. Church leaders and their flock have every right to express their opinions but they cannot act above the law. Equal rights legislation protects ALL protected characteristics including sexual orientation. Lord Carey and his flunkies cannot pick and chose which ones they want. Thats why the courts are involved, simple. Get used to it Your Grace, the LGBT community are protected in law – especially, it seems, from bigoted homophobes like yourself. Give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s, if would be so kind, obey the law of the land and stop complaining about it. It is here to stay and is going to get stronger.

  60. Staircase2 16 Apr 2012, 5:26pm

    …”he also blames judges for labelling some worshippers as “bigots.” ”

    …that’s because some worshippers ARE bigots…

  61. What a jackass! They can express their faith all they want. Just don’t force those idiotic beliefs on the rest of us.

    They know they are on the losing side when they start to claim to be the victim.

    I can’t wait for the day when/if the human race is able to mature beyond this idiocy of religion.

  62. I thought that there could be nothing more laughable than some of our trolls, then I discovered this article in the Telegraph, headlined:

    “The ‘bus advert storm’ confirms that Christians are now more progressive than gay rights activists”

    http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/brendanoneill2/100150707/the-bus-advert-storm-confirms-that-christians-are-now-more-progressive-than-gay-rights-activists/

    The article is absolute vile rampant homophobia, although entertainingly written (it made me laugh anyway!)

  63. Let’s get one thing straight folks, George Carey does not speak for the majority of Christians in this country and he certainly doesn’t speak for the majority in his own Church.

    I’m Gay and I’m Chrsitian. I’m proud to be both and I wear the crucifix with pride too (I’ve been searching high and low for a rainbow crucifix actually). I don’t feel any tension between my faith and sexuality and it offends me greatly – and many other Christians – when we hear the shrill voices of homophobes speaking in the name of us all. They’re not! Justifying their prejudice by misrepresenting the Bible and love of God is as repugnant to me as it is to any other member of the LGBT community.

    As far as I’m concerned the British Courts are upholding real Christian values of love, tolerance and respect. That’s what my faith is all about. I don’t feel ‘vilified’ or ‘driven underground’ at all. Carey’s remarks are ludicrous and extreme.

    Please, don’t tar us all with the same brush.

  64. David Myers 17 Apr 2012, 1:39am

    This bitc#n and moaning over their preceived mistreatment is akin to the KKK claiming they are getting bad press during the fifties and sixties. Give it up. You are haters and discriminators, and now you feel picked upon because others are calling you out for it!

  65. i wish all of the twats were underground to be honest the world would be a better place for all religion has lost the battle its shown it in the courts of law

  66. I love it when so-called “religious people” claim that their “religious freedoms” are being taken way because they are not allowed to force their beliefs and bigotry on other people! A BIGOT who uses his religion to “justify” his bigotry is STILL A BIGOT!

  67. should he not be happy their are being “persecuted” as apparently the kingdom of heaven belongs to the persecuted, or is this just a clever attempt at trying to justify himself knowing that people know that verse…. hmmm.

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