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Australia: Equal marriage likened to incest

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  1. The “slippery slope” argument, a logical fallacy relied upon by the poorly educated to impress and bedazzle the ignorant.

    Most incest is heterosexual. Does he not worry about all that rampant heterosexuality?

    And one of the most fundamental principles of contract-based law – like civil marriage – is that the terms and conditions be lawful. You cannot sign away your culpability to a criminal act, and incest is against the law. So his grasp of jurisprudence is as pitiful as his debating skills.

    1. Totally, incest polygamy etc, have nothing to do with marriage equality.
      Same sex marriage equality will lead to marriage equality for same sex couples along with opposite sex couples.

  2. So what was the end of Dr Phillips’ family discussion , was he allowed to marry his uncle in the end?

    What a weird family he’s got!

  3. Ann Lamott: “You can safely assume that you’ve created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do.”

    How convenient it must be for these lying bloody christians to cherry pick their way around their odious book of bloodshed and brutality and pick out just the bits that suit them. I’m pretty sure that not being a bloody liar is in the list of Sky Daddy’s ten most important rules. Odd that he didn’t put being LGBT in that list of commandments.

    Vile hypocritical bloody filth.

  4. The fundamental counter-argument to the desperate and ignorant people comparing equal marriage to incestuous marriage, is that incest is illegal, and consensual adult LGBT relationships are legal.

    There is quite rightly a very strong social taboo against incestuous relationships. Condoning incestuous relationships would remove that taboo, and lead to a much higher rate of sexual abuse of children by adults in the family, (usually grandfathers, fathers and older brothers). The incidence of sexual abuse of children within families is already serious enough.

    Also, legalising incest in order to enable incestuous marriage would seriously undermine the bond of family relationships that is one of the bedrocks of society.

    Gender neutral marriage does not.

    1. Incest is LEGAL in some countries and LGBT relationships are ILLEGAL in some countries. Your ‘fundamental counter – argument’ is therefore fundamentally defective

      1. Really? In which countries can brothers and sisters marry one another?

    2. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 13 Apr 2012, 4:03pm

      Well, I agree with you that the incest comparison is dotty, but I slightly disagree about other things.

      You’re not really alarmed about incest, you’re alarmed about child abuse. That’s more to do with age of consent laws and rape laws.

      As for why incest is a taboo, according to the anthropologists I’ve studied, it’s because it messes up the social structure. So your second point about how it would undermine the bond of family relationships is closer to the mark. If families exchange offspring with other families so that they can marry, this creates social bonds and allows communication, negotiation, hunting trips, gift-giving, all that sort of thing. Read Gayle Rubin’s “The Traffic in Women”, for instance. People think it’s about genetics, but incest taboos predate knowledge of genetics. Same-sex couples do not remotely threaten society in the way that a closed, incestuous family would.

  5. Sounds like the bishop is taking this a bit personally; is he worried he might start thinking he’s a lady …?

    1. David Waite 13 Apr 2012, 4:02am

      Seems more likely he had that problem a long time ago, and retreated from his dilemma into Mother Church. Bet you he is solidly against female priests and bishops too, for the same reason. Pathetic: Hiding inside a religious skirt to avoid being thought to wear a secular one.

  6. NB Family Voice is the former Australian Festival of Light. In its earlier incarnation, it included articles from discredited antigay ‘social scientists’ George Rekers and Paul Cameron as ‘fact pages’ on LGBT issues.

    New Zealanders would have two words to say in response to this- Graham Capill, former leader of the Christian Heritage Party and convicted pedophile.

    1. A little off topic but Indeed – Graham Capill, who for so long was the political leader of Christian politics in New Zealand and was also a Police Prosecutor. All the time he was rallying against advancement of GLBT rights in New Zealand he was molesting a child. He was convicted and served a lengthy jail sentence because he would not take responsibility for his offending and attend prison based sex offender treatment aimed at reducing his risk of future offending.

  7. Doe’s anyone know why they are so obsessed with this issue given the major issues that face the world and religion itself?
    Do they see LGBT as a relatively easy populist target?

    Is it just bog standard control freakery?

    1. Yours is a really interesting question and I think worthy of trying to gain more understanding. There does seem to be an obsessional quality to some of these characters that to me seems to go beyond being motivated by a strongly held religious belief.

      While nothing really new – there are findings in the social science literature that suggests/confirms that some of those who identify as heterosexuals hostile towards the GLBT community actually have been measured to have increased levels of sexual arousal to their same gender. So in short they act out their hostility as a way to reduce the anxiety or distress that the same sex arousal is causing them. Example

      So what we may be most battling is the very psychologically dysfunctional extreme closets cases that despise parts of themselves. Ironically they may well be the dysfunctional products of the types of social conditions they advocate for.

  8. M B Andrews 12 Apr 2012, 11:09pm

    The bullets are flying, I know, but, even in the cross fire about orientation and marriage, I’d really like to hear a good answer to this serious question.

    Is it laudable or ridiculous for someone to change their sexual orientation?

    In the story that prompted this firestorm in Australia, we’ve learnt that Christine Forster (the sister of the Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott) was married to a bloke for many years. They now have four children. Presumably, she wasn’t forced into the marriage, so I think we can assume that, in one sense, she would have considered herself heterosexual.

    But a few years ago, Christine met up with another middle age mum. It was at a school function where both their sons go. Somewhere along the line, she decided to form a relationship with Virginia Edwards. So, presumably, whereas at one point, she considered herself heterosexual, she now realised that she was homosexual.

    Fine, I understand that.

    What I don’t understand is the vitriol that got poured out in

    1. Is it laudable or ridiculous for someone to change their sexual orientation?

      ….It’s impossible to change your sexual orientation. But it is possible to educate people and have them change their opinion about gay peole. Although I think that is a much harder task if you come with baggage attached such a religion.

    2. Dorothy Freud 13 Apr 2012, 3:42am

      I’m not sure what you are trying to get at with your question. There couldn’t be anything laudable about changing one’s sexual orientation unless there was something wrong with it in the first place.

      Are you saying that there is something wrong with being gay?

    3. What the chance of getting a place on the happy bus to heaven if I change my sexual orientation? Any prize money in it if I do?

    4. The Hon Betsy Trotter 13 Apr 2012, 3:48am

      If I change my sexual orientation and become a Roman Catholic will I still be able to suck cok?

      1. As an RC you can do what your like dear, so long as your thoroughly ashamed of yourself

    5. The word that’s often used is ‘bisexual.’

    6. Dr Robin Guthrie 13 Apr 2012, 11:11am

      “Presumably, she wasn’t forced into the marriage, ”

      Societal pressures can do that.

    7. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 13 Apr 2012, 4:06pm

      The most likely scenario is that she is bisexual. It’s possible that she was a closeted lesbian who made an attempt at living as if she were straight, but in today’s world, that’s not the most likely option.

  9. Mumbo Jumbo 12 Apr 2012, 11:10pm

    Bishop Julian Porteous, representing the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference, said:

    ”If the definition of marriage is changed, it threatens this whole understanding of our own identity, and in turn that will lead to people being less secure about who they are and that can lead to society being damaged”

    No. It’s raping children that does all that.

    1. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 13 Apr 2012, 4:08pm

      Actually, I was going to say that it’s raising all children, both straight and queer, in a society that tries to teach them that the only option is heterosexuality, which is so harmful. Showing kids the real range of options can only help them.

      I can’t see how raping children is remotely relevant.

  10. M B Andrews 12 Apr 2012, 11:10pm

    is the vitriol that got poured out in the other sexual-orientation and marriage story that came over the last seven days. It concerns homosexual people who go through a process of reorientation.
    I happen to know someone who was mentioned in some of the coverage. His name is Chris. Many years ago, he considered himself gay, and was deeply involved in the Sydney scene.
    Then, as he hit his 50s, he realised he wasn’t happy with where he was. He started looking at some very early experiences in his childhood. Things started to change for him.
    After many years, he tried dating, and now he’s married to a lovely lady about his age. I’ve only met them twice. But they seem happy. Once the guy was homosexual, and now, I presume, he considers himself heterosexual.

    1. Cilia Blick 12 Apr 2012, 11:57pm

      Or maybe he’s just past it, and settled down to a celibate life with a woman who will look after him in his old age.

    2. So he is bi – what does he want, a cookie and a bloody pride parade?

    3. Does this story mean that LGBT shouldn’t be allowed secular marriage?
      Many of those opposed to SSM seem to change partners fairly frequently, despite their apparent concern over the “sanctity” of marriage/

      No one is banned from seeking the “gay cure” anymore than than one is banned from consulting an astronomer to see into the future, however it should not be presented as an established proven therapy anymore than astronomy is a proven science.

      For every Chris there are more people who “pass” as heterosexual in an attempt to conform to societal pressures but who realise and accept their true nature later in life.

      1. I meant Astrology of course:-)

    4. Bisexual woman in Edinburgh 13 Apr 2012, 4:55pm

      I’m sure the Sydney gay scene of however many years ago was thoroughly accepting of bisexual men. Oh, hang on a minute…

      I know lots of women who identify as bisexual. Most of the queer men I know identify as gay. This includes one who has slept with five women! Biphobia is still rampant, and the pressure is particularly strong on men to be “one thing or the other”. The men I know who identify as bisexual are far less likely to be involved in the gay scene. It’s a gay scene, after all, not an LGBT scene, and it still focuses mainly on gay men.

  11. M B Andrews 12 Apr 2012, 11:11pm

    All of which brings me back to the question. Why is it that we should be sending Christine messages of support, while we send Chris messages of scorn?
    Your answers are welcome.

    1. I am sure none, you included MBA, of us should be seeking to judge anybody else’s personal relationships about which we have limited knowledge. We rightly send Christine messages of support for the strong personal stand she is taking on the issue of marriage equality, in which she echos many of us. Her experiences obviously strike a chord. And, her brother being who he is, it is good to hear how he has discovered that gay people are not something that happens somewhere on th other side of town and in other peoples families; he came out of this story sounding more humane and I hope that will stay with him.

      If it suits Chris to be with a woman now, that’s fine for him. It’s his personal choice. It says nothing about his sexual orientation. It is actually possible for a gay men to get on well with women, you know.

      Allowing myself to speculate, perhaps if Chris had grown up in a world where being gay was not illegal/stigmatised then he might have met & married a nice guy & lived HEA

  12. Dr. Phillips. I am very sorry that your family would not let you marry your cousin. I once had a crush on the daughter of my dad’s then girlfriend, but my dad informed me he planned to marry his mom and we were not going to be one of “those” families. If you had only been born a hundred years or so earlier you could have married your cousin, or forcefully taken her with minimal consequence and you would not have such hatred towards others who desire only equality under the law.

    And correct me if I am wrong, but wasn’t the fundemental “first” relationship in the bible incest? Was Eve not either Adam’s daughter or sister? And do you realize that it is science and not faith that deemed incest bad due to birth defects not the morality of the issue. No matter how you slice it sir, your argument is invalid.

    1. Sorry about the typo. My dad was to marry “her” mom. As in the mom of the girl I had a crush on.

    2. Cilia Blick 12 Apr 2012, 11:48pm

      Eve was his clone.

      1. David Waite 13 Apr 2012, 4:21am

        Clone on clone is even more ‘incestuous’ than Just sayin’..

      2. Dr Robin Guthrie 13 Apr 2012, 11:08am

        And sh@gged her son, either Cane or Abel.

  13. Cilia Blick 12 Apr 2012, 11:46pm

    Notice how these statements and claims of “cure” only ever come from the same little clone special interest organisations reading from the same propaganda sheet. Originating probably in the Bible belt of the USA. That of itself should be enough for them to be ignored by the press.

  14. The person who accuses you of doing something wrong or bad always is doing it or has done it or they are doing it him or herself. It is these anti gay Christians who have sex with their family members, look at their family records and see what they are hiding in their closets. If you look you will find it. Expose these people when you find it. After all that is what the Christians are doing to the LGBT people. Fight fire with fire and expose these anti gay Christians. The louder they accuse you the more they are saying I am doing the same thing or have done it and I am guilty of what I am accusing you of. Really they are, why do you think they are they ranting and raving so loud. They really want to be exposed so they can stop living the lie that they are hiding the same or similar thing. Time to set them free and expose them for what they are, homophobes who are really LGBT people working for the enemy, in this case the anti gay Christians.

  15. The same people don’t stop with just incest. They equate gay marriage with bestiality too, saying “Well, you will be able to marry your dog….” Then they say it opens the door to polyamory…..I wish it did :-)

  16. and all religious people can be cured of their deluded beliefs talk about brainwashed retarded twats who live in false hope. religion=POISON

  17. Scott of Sydney 13 Apr 2012, 4:32am

    The Catholic Church in Australlia has not done well this week. Besides these appalling comments Cardinal Pell has had to apologise to Jewish Groups. On national TV, [a show called Questions and Answers (QandA) on the ABC], in a debate with Richard Dawkins he claimed Germans were more Intelligent than Jews. So hopefully that will have some bearing on the weight given to the Catholic Church testimony to this committee.

  18. Heterosexuals have always been full of hypocrisy.

    Since when is marriage likened to incest.Only the church would come up with these outrageous slanderous comments.

    The mentality of heterosexuals is amazing. I hate them.

    1. A stupid and prejudiced attitude, and no better than people who say ‘All gay people are sick’. I imagine your parents were heterosexual, and I’m sorry to hear you hate/d them so much.

  19. GingerlyColors 13 Apr 2012, 6:37am

    We are not asking for the right to marry our brothers, sisters, fathers or mothers. I thought that the likes Dr. David Philips would be happy to see incest legalised as they are stupid Mother-Lovers! (And that is putting it politely and not in gangsta fashion!)

  20. I hate F@*king Christians.

  21. My old dad, rest his soul, always said to me as I was a kid that religion is the cause of the worlds problems and my goodness was he right!

    These people really are desperately clutching at straws aren’t they?

  22. The catholic bishop’s comments were funny

    He said:

    “If the definition of marriage is changed, it threatens this whole understanding of our own identity, and in turn that will lead to people being less secure about who they are and that can lead to society being damaged,”

    I think being raped as a child by a catholic priest is far more threatening to a child’s identity than whether a child’s parents are gay.

    I’ll bet this bishop has protected child rapists.

    The catholic cult is the home of child rape after all.

    1. Dr Robin Guthrie 13 Apr 2012, 11:05am

      ““If the definition of marriage is changed, it threatens this whole understanding of our own identity,”

      From a man who is an avowed celibate. ( W@nker )

    2. Heteropride.. Great 2B Straight!.. 14 Apr 2012, 11:31am

      Yes it is. And they are are all homosexual child rapists

  23. Robert in S. Kensington 13 Apr 2012, 12:23pm

    ‘Meanwhile, Bishop Julian Porteous, representing the Australian Catholic Bishops Conference, said that equal marriage would cause problems concerning gender identity for children. ”If the definition of marriage is changed, it threatens this whole understanding of our own identity, and in turn that will lead to people being less secure about who they are and that can lead to society being damaged,” he said.

    So, we have 10 countries permitting equal civic marriage . Can this religious nutter provide the factual evidence? It amazes me when they open their mouths and spew this nonsense without any proof. What annoys me is that nobody ever asks them.

  24. Simply put, biblical marriage condones incest (think Abraham & Sarah etc.) while same sex marriage never has. Ergo allowing same sex marriage will help guard against incest.

  25. So what else is new, we just had an american priest say that this could be prayed away or those people change their preferences so was only a matter of time before some idiot preacher in Australian said the same thing will say the same thing to him perhaps he should jusyt get a life or more to the point worry about about his family which seems a bit odd.

  26. How do these complete idiots even get a job ?

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