Well, it’s good to see that they’re at least giving her a second chance, but the fact that she has to match their archaic ideas of what makes a female is ridiculous. She’s female, and better looking then most of the other contestants, who cares what a doctor wrote on her birth certificate 23 years ago?
OK, I am going to start my comment here with a full admission of relative ignorance on trans/cis issues – particularly in terms of sporting events etc. So, I want to begin by saying that I am merely trying to understand and asking some genuine questions. I am aware that sometimes people who do not understand other minority groups sometimes are seen as being offensive when they ask questions, even if that is not the intention – and I have no intention to offend, if I do – its out of ignorance and I would appreciate knowing where I go wrong. Ok, that said *deep breath and step into the debate with trepidation* .
I fully believe that equality should be unconditional, eg unless there is a very good reason that this is not the case then a job should be open to anyone suitably qualified/experienced regardless of sex, gender, orientation, disability, age, ethnicity, religion etc etc
I do wonder with sport.
For example, in athletics if a person who was born with male biology but …
… has undergone gender reassignment and regards themselves as female (apologies if my terminology is not accurate – please correct me if it needs correcting), is a strong athlete perhaps javelin, perhaps decathlon, perhaps 1500m … they perform to an elite standard to the extent they are capable of representing their nation, which gender should they represent (I know that sounds callous, but I don’t know the answer). If its female as they identify, then surely they have an advantage (in a sense over the cis females as the athlete we are discussing was born muscularly as male? I might be being ignorant here, but I do wonder about the validity of world records etc etc … would cis females ever be able to expect a WR in the future if those who were biologically born male but regard themselves as female are able to compete on an equal basis with cis females.
That all said, I don’t know how we achieve equality for trans athletes without them competing directly against cis athletes
… although would this not remove a sense of equality from cis athletes?
This all sounds very clumsy and I struggle with the wording on this, nonetheless this is a genuine question and I would welcome your thoughts.
I understand what you’re trying to say Stu. Honestly, if this was a sporting competition, I don’t know what I’d say. The amount of testosterone undoubtedly would play an impact on a person’s physical ability, so it’d be a tricky situation. However, in this situation, that is irrelevant. This is not a competition on how “strong” someone is, it’s a contest on how pretty they are.
Thanks for coming back to me.
I know how I worded my comment was clumsy, but I did my best (whilst being very anxious that I might offend someone, which I did not want to do, and I am keen to try and understand).
I agree this is not technically a sporting or strength competition in this instance. The content “The Miss Universe Organization should look to state non-discrimination laws and institutions including the Olympics” was what made me think about sports competitions and what made me think about sports and lead me to ask the question. I can see arguments from various angles and I do not know what the answer is.
Be interested if anyone else has an opinion.
It should be noted that transwomen loose any extra muscle mass they may have once they have taken hormones for a period – I forget the length now. Any muscle advantage that being born apparently male gives a transwoman is lost and they then compete on the same level as Ciswomen
As I said I am ignorant and couldnt find much info online about the sports issue … and thought the people who might know would probably be reading and/or contributing to this forum.
I imagined some of the muscle mass might be lost, but didnt imagine all would. Thats news to me. Does the hormonal treatment continue permanently? If so, would this impact on ability to compete (eg are the hormones prohibited by IOC etc?)
I hope I come across as curious and keen to learn and understand rather than being difficiult in any way. Tell me if I am.
If you’re trans you aren’t allowed to take part in the Olympics and other sports until you have legally changed sex, had reassignment surgery and taken hormones for at leas two years (I think by that time your hormone levels are the levelled out or something. For MTFs you lose muscle mass with lower testosterone). For FTMs I think the surgery requirement is unfair since phaloplasties (sp?) aren’t always successful or wanted.
This is an interesting article that covers both sides of the debate
This article is quite interesting about intersex athletes (a little different obviously)
Both articles are really interesting. I think the IOC has tried to be fair (and probably think they are being fair) but whether they are (at first glance) I am not sure.
Whatever is fair has to be fair to both trans and cis athletes. I don’t know how easy that is to achieve.
Whatever decisions are made have to have an element of being able to be flexible due to the lack of full scientific understanding as alluded to in the first article.
I am intrigued and interested in understanding more, I shall go and read some more on trans issues and in particular trans sports issues. Thank You.
The real story here is that Canada has still not introduced anti-discrimination law to give trans people explicit protection.
The current law is unclear, and is likely to protect only people whose gender is legally recognised – and possibly not even them.
If anti-discrimination law had not stalled last year, this would likely have been resolved a lot quicker.
In many countries, including the UK, it is almost certainly illegal for this competition to require that contestants were assigned female sex at birth.
That’s not exactly true. This isn’t “necessarily” an issue of discrimination so much as it is an issue of definitions, wherein she isn’t fitting the definition of “female” as the rules require. I’m not entirely sure how to explain what I mean better then that, sorry
I’d imagine a defense lawyer could construct a winning case fairly easily if this were in the UK. She’d be protected by the Equality legislation we have here. Also, it’s likely she’d have applied for gender recognition; and had that been granted, the competition would have been breaking the law by asking for her original birth certificate, or letting it be known that she is transgender. In any case, she’d've had a new certificate issued.
OH! I understand now what “atalanta” meant by discrimination, my bad, ignore what I last said
Disgusting. It’s MISS Universe Canada, not Mister Universe Canada, and the contestant is a man no matter how confused he gets. If someone got fangs and tattooed their body and wanted to perform in a cat show, they would be called mentally ill. Stuff like this shouldn’t be happening, let alone promoted in a huge pageant like this.
Who’s confused? She’s not confused about who and what she is. You’re the one who seems to be confused
Vulgar comment. They used to call lesbians mentally ill. You should be ashamed of yourself. And what have cats got to do with it? You’re just jealous because she’s prettier than you.
He’s confused. He’s a man. Look at his DNA. He never had breasts until he got surgery. He has a penis. He has the male body.
Lesbians aren’t mentally ill. We don’t choose to be lesbian, they choose to mutilate their bodies and lie. Sexual orientation and “gender identity” are two different things. LOL HE is not prettier than me, he’s not attractive at all (not ugly though)
Also, I’m not confused. I know what I am
I’m a woman
I chose neither and I accept myself
Trans individuals also do not choose to be who they are, and they align THEIR bodies to match the identity they have….. just to reiterate, the identity they did not choose, but were born with!
The freedom you have as a homosexual came on the back of trans individuals many years ago, so I suggest you wake up and have a little more respect!
Transphobia alive in the LGB world again – grow up!
I don’t have an issue with feeling like another gender, but mutilating your body and lying about your real gender is the issue. Just like I don’t support when people do hard drugs.
You CHOOSE to take hormones or get surgery. And it’s still wrong. Look at my cat analogy.
You forgot to add that you are a bigot.
@Lumi — Also, I’m not confused. I know what I am. We know what you are too.
I accept myself I imagine Jenna does too. Why don’t you accept her.
@Lumi Bast — I’m not sure what your point is. If someone got fangs and wanted to perform in a cat show as you describe, they probably would be called, with reason, mentally ill. But this has no relevance to a transgender person entering a Miss Universe contest.
Calling that person confused is the same thing that homophobes say to gay people. Shouldn’t be happening is the same argument as the old gays are not natural. Talk about it being promoted and you sound exactly like any bigoted homophobe, like the foul creatures who enacted Section 28 in the UK, or the more recent and equally foul legislation in Russia.
If you have a good reason for viewing transgender people as less than human, and deserving fewer rights than you currently enjoy, let’s hear them. Otherwise go away.
1. Transgender people are no different from the speculative “cat people”. A man pretending to be a woman (not drag) entering a woman’s pageant is no different from the cat people.
2. Homosexuality is natural. I never once chose to be a homosexual. Transgender people chose to go through with treatments and operation.
3. LOL I am NOTHING like homophobes…. those people are denying people to be who they NATURALLY are, not who they chose to be. And homosexuals never mutilated their body to become homosexual.
4. Transgender people aren’t less than human, and they deserve hate crime protection, but they shouldn’t be allowed to change their gender.
“LOL I am NOTHING like homophobes….”
ROFLMAO you are EXACTLY like a homophobe
No, I’m not. Homophobes are against something people didn’t choose, and that doesn’t harm anybody. People choose to “change” their gender and they’re harming their body.
Homosexuality is beautiful & about love, but transgenderism is about confusion and deception.
You’re wrong about the ‘choice’ but I’ll humour you (even though you’re clearly an idiot and I’m wasting my time).
What harm are trans people doing to you by choosing to undergo gender reassignment surgery?
What harm has this woman done to anyone by entering Miss universe?
Why is it so difficult for you to respect a fellow human being and use their preferred name/pronoun?
They’re mutilating their bodies, and they’re insulting their real gender and their “new” gender
Jenna is a MAN. The pageant should be for women, not men pretending to be women.
IDGAF what pronouns someone wants. I’ll call them the gender they are. If a guy wants to call himself a cat, he’s still a human.
Racist people usually deny they are racist
Sexist people usually deny they are sexist
Xenophobic people usually claim they are not xenophobic
Homophobic people usually deny their homophobia
Equally, Transphobic people usually deny they are transphobic.
I suspect Luni is unaware of how her comments are seen and how they impact on others.
“Homosexuality is natural. I never once chose to be a homosexual. Transgender people chose to go through with treatments and operation.”
Well a more accurate analogy is that you could “choose” to stay celibate. But you shouldn’t have to do that, and trans people shouldn’t have to live with debilitating dysphoria because it’s “natural”.
By having homosexual sex, I’m not mutilating my body, and homosexuality is natural, while changing your gender is not
Your definition of natural seems to be “no medical intervention”. By that logic, babies with cleft lips shouldn’t be operated on.
Those babies are having something fixed that’s part of their real body. Transgender people are trying to have the body of another gender. Way different.
1. There is more to gender than possession of a particular set of genitals.
2. So anything “unnatural” should be pilloried and abused ? Shaving, antibiotics, windows ? What on earth ? Lesbianism was (and still is) described as “unnatural” — what does that even mean ?
3. You are just like a homophobe. If you talk like a bigot, you probably are a bigot. You make grand pontificating statements that you don’t defend other than through repeatition, and you seek to impose your views on other people and deny those people rights you enjoy. So hypocritical also. Trying to laugh it away with a LOL isn’t very impressive.
4. What business is it of yours what other people do to their bodies ?
Your arguments are those that are employed by homophobes against gay people. Nice company you keep.
he wouldn’t be a cat because he is human. but a transgender person is just changing sex within the human species.
He isn’t a woman because he’s a man, just like the man wouldn’t be a cat.
The cat analogy doesn’t work, simply because it doesn’t happen. Gender dysphoria HAS been examined and verified as a legitimate phenomenon by independent psychologists. It’s there- hormones and surgery can make it go away.
Also, men and women have more genetics in common than men and cats. Once you’ve factored in the (100% confirmed) existence of intersex people (one in ~10000 men have XX chromosomes according to this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome), it isn’t that far fetched to believe in a neurological form of intersex’ed’ness or whatever the suffix should be.
On the other hand, there are less immediately apparent explanations to why someone would have the nervous system and body image of a cat.
Intersex people are different. If you have a penis, male body, etc, and then change it, SMH. Same with vagina, breasts, etc.
You are a moron. Transsexualism is a scientifically proven congenital birth condition. The problem here is your ignorance of the science involved. And seeing you’re ignoring others telling you that, you’re willfully ignorant and that makes you a bigot.
I am a gay man. I struggle to understand trans issues, and happily admit I am ignorant about them – but I do try to understand and try to learn.
I have very clumsily asked some questions above to try and help me understand in this matter.
I usually respect many of your comments on here, but I find the comment you have made there transphobic – nothing more, nothing less.
Who ARE these offensive people who post such misinformed garbage?! She has been cheated, not cheated anyone. If its not already illegal to specify “naturally born” gender anywhere including private competitions then Canada needs to pull its finger out. And a bit of respect please. She is a she and others have no right to impose their views without adding something constructive, nor to use such offensive terms as disgusting or it. if you don’t feel comfortable with someone else’s journey, let it go. No-one’s forcing you to read this publication or to accept a gender that doesn’t fit you. I was lucky enough to be born into a gender I am completely happy with but that doesn’t stop me having the capacity to understand that others have a far more difficult path. Good on her.
I’m glad she is back. Although I personally find the whole idea of “Miss Universe” a bit archaic.
I think the pageant in itself is pretty dumb, it’s objectifying and pointless
Again, your own pointless views not really contributing anything to this discussion except for your own bigotry and transphobia. I can understand though as she’s clearly threatening you in your own little world isn’t she!?
Oh hang on, no she’s not!
I thought that transphobia in the LGB world was all but gone, and I would bet it mostly is, however in you it’s alive an well. Maybe have a bit of respect for a community that fought for your rights as a homosexual, rights that, had they not been fought for would have seen your community with media stories like this still!
Grow up and get back in your cave!
He has the male body, a penis, and male DNA. That’s a man. Look at my cat analogy please.
I don’t live in a cave, I’m far more civilized than people who mutilate their bodies and lie about their gender. And if holding my views makes me transphobic, oh well, I’ll stand up for what’s right :)
Far more civilised, really, yet you would deny individuals the right to do with their bodies what they wish, you would deny them the chance to live comfortably and as they they identify? Who are you to question that!? You are about as civilised in this respect as the Church (pick one). Clearly a troll.
And yes, I saw your cat analogy, but if you’re going to use that as your only evidence, then I suggest you get off your soap box and go and do something constructive? Long walk and short pier comes to mind!
Funny eh, but you’d soon be up in arms if people were here denying your apparent rights to live as you feel, yet you feel comfortable doing it to others. You are a contradiction in terms and you will never win this argument, here or anywhere as your rhetoric is based on nothing but bigoted opinion and idiocy!
Again……. move on, Loon.
The difference is- I’m not hurting or mutilating or changing my body, and I’m not getting gay surgery/hormones.
You’d be perfect for it then
I don’t wear makeup and I haven’t had plastic surgery, and I don’t dress in slutty clothes. I wouldn’t.
Maybe not, but you’re pretty dumb, objectifying and pointless =/
I’m not dumb, thank you :)
Dumb? Just because you know my viewpoints on one thing, doesn’t mean you know me as a whole. I have a high IQ and I have “smart” viewpoints on many things.
Objectifying? Hmmm, no, if I supported this pageant I would be. And I treat women with respect, I don’t treat them as objects.
Pointless? Yeah, because you know everything about me based on my viewpoint. If you didn’t know my viewpoint on transgenderism, you’d probably like me.
You’re right, I don’t know you as a whole and I only know your viewpoints on one matter. I’m sure you have many “smart” viewpoints (and I thank you so much for already putting that in quotes for me). However, I know one aspect about you, and that’s all I need. Since you love your cat analogy so much, Let me give you my own. Imagine you heard about someone who was kicking kittens whilst wearing steel capped boots. You don’t know anything else about them other then that. Doesn’t matter how nice and kind and loving etc that person is, after that one bit of news, you can form a pretty good opinion on them.
Lumi this prejudice against trans people is a really nasty and unnattractive side to your personality. WHY are you so against people having the right to be what they feel they should be?
I don’t support people changing their natural gender, and I don’t support people lying on their drivers license, etc about their gender, and I don’t support a man being in my dressing rooms. They might be good people, but I don’t support them doing that.
“and I don’t support a man being in my dressing rooms”
Yes, because it’s so much more risky to have a transsexual in there who has no sexual attraction to women then it is to have a lesbian in there. Troll…
1. Many transwomen can be lesbian or bi
2. Sexual orientation isn’t the issue. If you’re male, you shouldn’t be in the women’s dressing room.
Also lesbians aren’t perverts
You are quite correct that lesbians are not necessarily perverts – although I am sure like some heterosexuals, some gay men and some trans people, some lesbians will be.
What is very clear, from your comments is that having undoubtedly either experienced or been aware of homophobia does not make you impervious to or exempt from being phobic about other minority groups.
I agree with you about beauty pageants.
It makes me sad :(
Women are so much more than sex objects.
And I for one would take an attractive woman in normal clothes with little (preferably no) makeup over pageant women any day. I don’t like fakeness and I’m not into skinny women either (no offense to skinny women I just like some curves)
beauty pageants are rubbish. but if women want to do them then that’s their business. trans women should also have the right.
@Keith — I think you’ll find gender is a lot more complex than you imagine it to be.
Does the form SERIOUSLY ask if the contestant was born female? I have never seen a form for anything that asks for original gender as well as current gender. It seems like the pageant organisers were scared of exactyly this happening.
Even if she is let back in, she certainly won’t be allowed to win.
I hope he isn’t allowed to since it’s a women’s pageant
Guess what – no one is interested in your transphobic views. Why leave so many transphobic comments on a website that is also for the trans community? If you don’t agree with those who are trans. Why click on the story? Unless you’re just a troll. Or you have bigoted nasty views on a group of people who you want to hurt. Sad and pathetic.
You really are one of the most ignorant and bigoted trolls I’ve come across.
OK answer this: What if it was an F to M man as a contestant in a Mr Universe competition?
She doesn’t like trans people Angela, she’s not going to like FTMs any more than MTFs.
An FTM would be acceptable because they’re still female
I have no issue with transgender people, just what they do to their bodies
Did you not understand my question because your answer makes no sense, I asked if a man who was previously ‘female’ were to enter a MISTER Universe competition would that be OK, our should he be barred, because he is by your definition still female?
I have no issue with transgender people, just what they do to their bodies”
You do realise that quite a high percentage of FTMs take hormones and have surgery too?? You do have “an issue with transgender people”, you’ve pretty much proved that already.
You realize that’s the same logic fundamentalist Christians use against gay people, right? “It’s okay that you’re gay, just don’t act on it”.
I’m also not a troll
Keith = troll
I’m a lesbian who’s been viewing this site for quite a while and I comment on many other stories.
You do comment on many other stories, usually in a thoroughly sensible and constructive manner.
Thats why your downright bigotry in this issue comes as a complete shock and disappointment.
@Lumi , a hypocrite and attention seeking in my book. She claims to have such high standards, “I don’t dress in slutty clothes”… But here on public site, of all the pics she could choose to represent herself…she chooses photo of herself with plunging black neckline, so her cleavage is showing, breast looks as to fall out. She brags about how smart she is and her smart view points? Sadly people lie this hurt our country and its chances of one day not being run by bigots.
I don’t think that’s her in the picture??
That picture isn’t of me :)
and yet you complain about people pretending to be “someone they’re not”.
Hypocritcal troll, nothing more =/
Having a woman I find attractive as my avatar is completely different from changing my gender in legal documents and lying about my real gender
“That picture isn’t of me”
In what way is this not hypocritical when you continue to argue for gender purity? . . .
people *lie*,should have read people* like* this
@Lumi. Why are you so bitter about people who have done you no harm at all?
She is an Ivanka Trump’s lookalike.
She’s only running for Miss KNOWN Universe. Which will get her into position to run for Miss Known Multiverse. I hear that Earth #827 has some hotties.
@Lumi – so, given that your issue is apparently with body mutilation, how do you feel about the fact that I have tattoos, piercings, stretched ears? Are you going to tell me that I shouldn’t do that to my body because, given your other assertions, it offends you?
All the reasons she has given are completely ignorant and based on irrational prejudices.
when this woman woke up in the morning and looked in the mirror she had a fit and who would blame her as lloking back from the mirror was this ugly woman who is Lumi Bast
Does anyone know how many transgender people there are in the world? I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that it was still quite a rare thing. I don’t mean that offensively to trans people. I was simply wondering because I have never seen a form, official or otherwise, that asks for the birth gender of the applicant. I didn’t think transgender was comonplace enough for the question to be asked. I’m wondering why this pageant’s organisers were so worried about a flood of trans people entering their competition that they made a rule about it.
PS. If a term like ‘trans people’ is offensive or patronising, please correct me. I admit to being uncertain about this issue. I don’t personally know anyone who is transgender. If I was introduced to somebody who was, then the only thing I do know is that I would accept the gender they want to be unlike Lumi’s ‘he/she’ nonsense.
According to a paper by Femke Olyslager and Lynn Conway presented in 2007 transgender people could number as many as 1 in 500 of the population. Other estimates put this figure as 1 in 4500. The truth is it’s one of those statistics that almost impossible to quantify accurately, much like a person’s sexuality.
I think the question ought to be how many in Canada, since there seems to be so much concern about them there.
What a stupid woman she is.
She clearly has little respect for any woman if she is a willing participant in a cattle market / beauty pageant, where women are reduced to lumps of meat.
Shame on her!
I suppose she is proud of her feminine looks after going to such a lot of trouble to have them. But I agree that beauty contests are rubbish. Especially transphobic ones!
Lumi Bast seems to want women’s rights to be set back a decade: her anti-female sexist views seem to reduce women to the literal sum of their parts. Her rhetoric is that breasts, ovaries and a vagina make a woman (or to be more specific: the above items make you a woman if you’re born with them).
In essence she’s saying that a woman is a reproductive machine, nevermind the different psychological and emotional traits that are oft associated with womanhood.
Her argument of ‘not born that way’ is ridiculous; there are documented cases of people being born with both sets of genitalia, or neither. There are some who believe that a male who behaves more like a female in psychological tests would have had an influx of oestrogen while they were in the womb.
Her attitude reeks of elitism of the nastiest kind; a sort of club that she will only feel special about being a member of if she can ‘deny entry’ to other people.
I wish LGB people would keep an open mind to equality for EVERYONE.
See Lumi – you / Keith / same thing