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Edinburgh: Two men jailed for killing gay man

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  1. Why did he only give them EIGHT years then? They will be out in 4- nit much for what they did to him!

    1. I agree given the severe aggravating factors in this case that 8 years seems a very lenient sentence.

      In reporting elsewhere the judge is stated as saying that 2 years discount were given in recognition of the defendants early guilty plea.

      However, that plea was to the lesser charge of culpable homicide when they had been charged by the police (authorised by the fiscal) with murder. I do wonder why a plea bargain was deemed appropriate in this case.

      As for being out in four years. Its a possibility – IF they behave inside and IF they show they are both sorry for their crime and are not a danger to society. However, the cynic in me says they will serve less than eight years (although probably more than four).

  2. :O Only 8 years? honestly?…..taking someones life and only get 8 years?…they should have been given life.

    1. I totally second this… I mean 8 years for not only killing a man but then setting his body up semi naked as some sort of freakish display for whoever to find?

      “You behaved with extreme cruelty and utter indifference. No sentence I can impose can ease the ordeal of Mr Carter’s family.” – So i’ll just give you 8 years…

  3. Father Dougal 30 Mar 2012, 9:27pm

    More to the point, why did the prosecutor agree to reduce an obvious murder to manslaughter.

    1. Dr Robin Guthrie 31 Mar 2012, 2:42am

      Gays are not deemed as quite human by some.

      Not normal. Not godly.

      Therefore different laws apply.

      Anyone fancy stopping paying there taxes until these judges get it.

      1. @Dr Guthrie

        Its not just the judge that has to be considered in terms of the decision to enter into a plea bargain, there is also the case of the procurator fiscal agreeing to the plea bargain that the defense lawyers proposed.

        I do not disagreement that some cases see justice being served by a plea bargain. I struggle to see how justice is served by a plea bargain in this matter – other than this would reduce costs for the fiscal, due to there being no requirement for a full trial. That is not serving justice IMHO though.

        1. oops … do not disagree …

  4. Raymond A. Weaver 30 Mar 2012, 9:44pm

    Eight Years? We have people in the U.S. serving longer time for selling maryjane.

  5. UK-US Difference # 2677: In the US, only the wealthy and well-connect politicians can get away with murder.

    UK-US Difference #2678: In the US, any poor and homeless person, especially African-Americans, can be convicted and punished of any crime (including murders) within 30 miles, regardless of a solid alibi.

  6. Another Hannah 30 Mar 2012, 10:40pm

    This is obviously far to lenient and raises questions about equality in the justice system.

  7. Has the motivation of the crime been disclosed?

    1. It was essentially a mugging so I’m assuming money was the motivation, though the fact that one of the murderers got to know their target before they killed him its possible it had homophobic overtones.

  8. johnny33308 31 Mar 2012, 1:50am

    So the life of a gay man in Edinburgh is worth only 8 years and out in four, then? Remind me not to go to Scotland again, ever! What a Shameful sentence for MURDER!!!!!

    1. Dr Robin Guthrie 31 Mar 2012, 2:54am

      I was born there and could not get out of it quick enough.

      They still suffer from all that sectarian drivel. Rangers – Celtic etc.
      which basically equates to Catholic – Protestant.

      None of them actually know what it means, its just an “us and “them””
      scenario instilled into them by ignorant parents and religion.

      I was “deemed” protestant by birth, sent off to Sunday School and all that nonsence, however I saw through the sorry farce from an early age only to end up now what could be called a “militant secularist”.

      This militancy only exists as defending my rights against those religious people who wish to impose THEIR version of THEIR religion on my life.

      Only today, Christian Concern are with glee defending the case against assisted suicide for those people who desire it.

      They are using their religious beliefs to keep people dying in agony using their hate ridden book to justify it.

      I cannot see the humanity or empathy in being happy with such a judgement.

      1. Mr Ripley's Asscrack 31 Mar 2012, 12:07pm

        What a load of old pish. There are as many non-catholics as catholics/protestants playing for both teams mentioned above. And where is it mentioned that this murder was based on religious differences anyway?! A huge generalisation, ‘doc’, perhaps I can write off England as being controlled by mindless morris dancers or the anglican communion, eh? Just so I didn’t have to think about the subject anymore! And wouldn’t your parents have had a say in you being ‘deemed’ protestant?! Or were you delivered by stork, or materialised somehow?! Perhaps you are just plain IGNORANT. Give it up.

        1. Dr Robin Guthrie 31 Mar 2012, 1:37pm

          That was what I grew up with.

          You are in NO position to criticize my life experience as you did not live it. Therefore F off.

          1. No one is criticising your life experience or stating that your life experience has no impact onyou as an individual.

            There is a question as to whether your experiences correlate to anything in this court case or act as a demonstration of Scottish society or people as a whole.

            I do not think your experience should be undermined, but this is your experience (and not the one which I have encountered when in Scotland nor that which my Scottish gay friends have expressed to me).

          2. Dr Robin Guthrie 31 Mar 2012, 5:43pm

            OK.. Just to clarify.

            It was the mid seventies.

          3. Mr. Ripley's Asscrack 31 Mar 2012, 9:20pm

            Who is criticising you exactly, deary? The 1970s was a decade of huge upheaval for many people in UK, not least in Scotchland, but to suggest that “I was born there and could not get out of it quick enough,” okay, you had to leave to Scotland behind; it was such drama! But, ‘doc’, to say “They still suffer from all that sectarian drivel. Rangers – Celtic etc. which basically equates to Catholic – Protestant”. Your reference to Rangers as being catholic (from your list) and Celtic, as being protestant, is inherently incorrect, esp. as many protestants have played for Celtic and a few catholics for Rangers. Celtic was started by a RC priest in the poor end of Glasgow, but as with all football clubs that have moved on in the last 40years, they are now big businesses – people who choose to support each are an entirely separate issue. As per sectarian ref, please can I have a citation of what you perceive to be a sectarian issue regarding each?

          4. Dr Robin Guthrie 1 Apr 2012, 1:26am

            Just what is your problem Ripleys..

            I posted my experience.

            Sorry it does not compute with you, however that is what I felt at the time.

            So again. F OFF.

          5. Dr Robin Guthrie 1 Apr 2012, 1:30am

            Oh. And as to sectarian citation.

            http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2012/03/20/neil-lennon-bomb-plot-trial-accused-denied-having-sectarian-views-in-police-interview-86908-23795583/

            Kilwinning is the town next to Irvine. And this occured recently.

            And PS. I have a PHd. So again F off.

          6. Dr Robin Guthrie 1 Apr 2012, 1:36am

            And to add further, when my Uncle died, I was deemed a pall bearer, and lo and behold it was an orange order funeral.

            Sashes, processions, the whole shebang.

          7. Mr. Ripley's Asscrack 1 Apr 2012, 2:43pm

            I have a problem with someone disclaiming they couldn’t wait to get away from Scotland is all, but the repetitious comments regarding religion, when religion is not a factor of the story, is getting boring beyond belief. I don’t think I know of 1 person to my knowledge has ever been a religious bigot, (not to use the word ‘sectarian’, as with regard to its definition, it is entirely defined by what causes offense to the police). With regard to the Daily Record link, “A man accused of conspiring to murder Celtic manager Neil Lennon in a parcel bomb plot told police he did not have any views on sectarianism, a court heard today”, so hardly evidence of what you are on about, I don’t know what your problem is! The fact your family is engaged with a masonic lodge tells me a few things about your family! Thanks for sharing. It still doesn’t “compute” to me, your reaction to a supposed religious factor to this story that doesn’t exist! Enough.

    2. Mr Ripley's Asscrack 31 Mar 2012, 12:00pm

      So one wrong sentence and that’s enough to merit your comment! Is it weird to be write off a country based on a random murder?

      1. Absolutely.

        Ok. Scotland has some problems. Scottish courts have made some dubious decisions (including this one).

        However, so most other nations have some problems and their courts have made dubious decisions (Including England, US, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, France, Germany, Spain, and many more).

        The court got this astoundingly wrong and the procurator fiscal needs to explain why they thought a plea bargain was acceptable in this case. Neither of these facts mean that Scotland is a “no go zone” for anyone.

        1. Mr. Ripley's Asscrack 31 Mar 2012, 9:39pm

          Thanks for the course words of kindness; they will no doubt keep me warm in my garret tonight with the 3-bar fire on. “The court got this astoundingly wrong”, Yes – totally agree. “Scotland has some problems.” Completely patronising! Do not even put Scotland in the same sentence as ‘no-go zone’! Just to point out, there were NO riots up here last year… on that score, England 3 – Scotchland 0; Manchester not included. As for the court sentence; you can piss and moan about the sentence and the dodgy deals; but the poor guy is still dead, his family are still without their loved one but at least the murderers are now behind bars. To be completely patronising again, the English do believe in an eye for an eye at all costs… I wonder where they get that from, ‘doc’ and stu?

          1. @Mr Ripleys Asscrack

            I apologise clearly I did not express myself clearly.

            There was no intention to patronise, nor would I ever conceive it was appropriate.

            However, just as there are problems in England – there are some in Scotland – some of those problems are the same, some are not. My reasons for the inclusion of the words Scotland has some problems was in reply to Dr Guthries comments and my intention was not to suggest that Scotland was a no go zone (I will there next week and am looking forward to it), but it was also to acknowledge that Scotland is not some utopia without its problems.

            I have never mentioned “dodgy deals”, those are words you have used, not me. I have said there was a plea bargain – which is a matter of fact and record. I merely asked questions as to why the fiscal felt a plea bargain was appropriate in a case where the victim appears to have been tortured prior to his murder.

            Yes the murderers are behind bars, but NOT convicted of murder.

          2. @Mr Ripleys Asscrack

            You may be satisfied with 8 years as an appropriate punishment in this case. I do not believe that the victims was afforded justice in this instance.

            That does not mean that I believe there is anything inherently wrong with either the Scottish Justice System, Scottish people or even the individual lawyers in this case. It means I do not believe justice was served.

            I do think the fiscal have a moral responsibility to explain why a plea bargain was accepted – its seems illogical given the handcuffing of the victim and other factors disclosed in court.

            I have no idea what you are trying to suggest with your comments about what the “English believe”, it seems a slightly barbed attempt at anti-English rhetoric – or maybe you are just being unclear?

            So, you can (to use your words) “piss and moan” about my comments, but nonetheless your inference regarding my intentions are wrong and patronising.

          3. Mr. Ripley's Asscrack 1 Apr 2012, 2:56pm

            @Stu.

            Erm, I said I was being patronising, what don’t you get about that. I ran out of characters and so summarised as “dodgy deals”; I, of course, meant the plea bargain. Just to correct, sir, I did not say 8 years was enough. This is boring me now.

            RIP John

          4. @Mr Ripleys Asscrack

            I thought you were accusing me of being patronising when you used my quote and then the words “Completely Patronsing”- that was how I read your comments. If that was not what you meant then I apologise.

            I think there is a breakdown in communications here.

            Confused by your anti-Engligh rhetoric.

            This aspect of the debate is getting old though, I concede.,

  9. Mr Ripley's Asscrack 31 Mar 2012, 12:17pm

    I can only presume that there was mitigating circumstances for the judge to sentence so lightly, or perhaps they just had a good solicitor. Bad decision none the less, and certainly no need to write off a country based on it. Such a reaction is simple bigotry.

  10. While nothing will bring the victim back, the Sentence is very light and leaves the question why?

  11. ONLY eight years? Are GAY lives worth less than others’ in the UK? That is what this lenient sentence is saying about the gravity of this vicious crime. They should be behind bars for MANY more years! SHAME.

  12. A footballer was today given 5 years for raping a drunk 19 year old girl in a hotel, although also truly abhorrent that is surely far less of a crime than sadistically attacking, possibly also sexually abusing and then murdering a man on his way home. Surely this crime deserves at least twice the rape sentence if not life.

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