“Same-sex monogamy seems to me to be spiritually indistinguishable from a marriage between two people who are unable to have children.”
Am I the only guy in a relationship with a man who has a functioning set of balls and is capable of making a baby? Surrogate! Everyone keeps saying “Gays can’t reproduce” We can (and many of us want to), just not with each other. Also we aren’t talking IVF high-tech, more low tech methods *cough* turkeybaster *cough* are available. That and many of us are bisexual, so maybe having hetrosex is an option for some too I guess.
The roman cult of course opposes IVF and other related procedures because embryos created in a laboratory are often discarded, whereas others are frozen and still others are created for medical research purposes, for example to create stem cells.
Pope Benedict also restated the Catholic Church’s opposition to IVF, and added that it should only welcome reproductive assistance if it ‘facilitates’ sexual activity between a couple. A senior Vatican official also said that there is no moral justification for discriminating between embryos used in IVF procedures. Monsignor Elio Sgreccia, who heads the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Life, said the theory that laboratory-created embryos were not worthy of the same legal protection and the right to life as an already implanted embryo was morally wrong.
Amazing isn’t it that a bunch of “celibate” men dictate what a woman or a couple can and cannot do. The same men who have no experience of human relaitonships.
“Amazing isn’t it that a bunch of “celibate” men dictate what a woman or a couple can and cannot do”
It is absolutely amazing. It is not only they are celibate, it is, as we have so spectacularly found out, is that their ‘moral’ lives are so spectacularly out of control. Si many of them have been leading particular perverse lives from fathering children in and out of their parish, raping nuns, widespread child abuse, visiting sex workers, dishonesty offending to name just a few.
CofE bishops/vicars don’t have to be celibate only gay ones in CPs have to be celibate!!! Ridiculous.
I think Catholic clregy have to be celibate…don’t know their reasoning behind it…
I said much the same Locus elsewhere. I’m a gay woman and as far as I know I am more than able to have a child.
Someone against same-sex marriage had said that marriage was between two people, a man and a woman, who can procreate without a third party’s involvement. So what about all those hetro couples who have to use a surrigate or test tube etc. Is that not ‘third-party’ involvement. Nobody in the church is telling them they can’t have kids or be married!
The whole thing is insane.
A nice, jolly chap, and he’s right, the church is the last “respectable” refuge of prejudice.
Come the day when the CofE gives up its prejudice against gay people, the RC Church will still be slogging away at it.
In case anyone missed it yesterday, here is Archbishop Sentamu’s latest contribution:
“There is a difference between civil partnerships and marriage……that difference does not mean one is better than another.”
Yes, that’s right, a black man extols the virtue of separate but equal.
PS: Don’t forget to vote in the poll embedded in the article.
What has his skin colour got to do with it? If widdicombe says something anti gay would you menion her gender and struggles that woman had to get equality?
James, it’s reasonable to think that Black people should be able to empathise with the discrimination against gay people. It’s not offensive to suggest that, whether it’s true in this case or not.
Actually youre wrong.
A black African may have never experienced racism if that person spent their life in Africa. Don’t make assumptions that all black people have had the same life experiences
I think it’s clear that we’re talking about Britain here. The context of this debate is UK legislation.
You’re so right James! racism doesn’t exist in Africa it’s a Utopia of tolerance. You’d never for example have an Apartheid society or a genocidal massacre in an African country.
Could you think before you speak please. People like you who scream racism all the time make it harder for people who experience real racism to be heard.
You do know where the term “separate but equal” comes from, don’t you?
Widdecombe should know better too, but I believe it is particularly shameful that we seem not to have the support of the black community at large.
It seems Archbishop Sentamu supports apartheid
I believe Sentamu was once discriminated against by General Amin in Uganda,, which is a Commonwealth country.
Your post reminded me that there are only a few days left to respond to the Consultation on the Draft Commonwealth Charter. The Draft is not very satisfactory in terms of LGBT equality as Peter Tatchell explains:-
Thats like saying you, can sit at the back of the bus,but not at the front, but don’t worry you are on the bus so it’s not predjudice.
I must admit I wouldn’t have stayed with an employer that had such an issue with my sexuality.
Not quite the same for those religious folk!
locus solstice-the time is not so far away when they will be able to use genes from yourself and you partner and create a fertilised egg that will only need to be matured by a surrogate female ‘mother’. The baby wil be your true genetic descendent.
I’ve no problem with having two kids, both from same surrogate :) One genetically from me, one from him, both ours. I want us to be “Dad” and “Daddy.” ^_^ I would also let them know who their surrogate mother was and how she helped us to have them, so although possible to have genetically 50-50, this way would be just fine for us.
Religion should be allowed to become irrelevent and die off. no one care as most of the wicked and awful things that have happened on earth have been done in the name of god
Excluding Mao, Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot?
Dr Jeffrey John, your lifestyle is a disaster, not CofE’s stance on homosexuality!!!
Why. Please explain.
You life must be really crap if you care what other people do. I pity you
LIfestyle? What does lifestyle have anything to do with it? Do you think he gives too many (or too few) dinner parties?
History will record Dr Jeffrey John’s experience and courageous stand as Christlike. It’s Saint Jeffrey already as far as I’m concerned (actually, Jeffrey the White might be more approriate as I’m a Lord of the Rings fan).
St Jennifer as they refer to him in cloistered circles.
Jeffrey John is totally correct. The Anglican Church is totally un gay friendly and even members are calling for a breakaway gay friendly part of the church. The Catholics are no different. They are not being told they have to do marriages for gays, but they still want to denounce us. I can see a major shake up in the church soon and welcome more interaction and more senior roles for clergy. We are told to Love thy Neighbour- but the mainstream churches have turned this into – Love they Neighbour as long as they are not gay
Thank you Dr John for having the determination to stand up and be counted publically and to personally and publically highlight the illegitimacy of the arguments of both Archbishops in the CofE.
The manner which the church has treated you is shameful and totally unChristian. I wish you well in your legal action against the church.
The manner the church have decided to use to dehumaise and segregate gay people is abhorrent and on an equal with apartheid in South Africa. That the church should find it appropriate and acceptable to engage in dehumaisation and segregation demonstrates that their is a complete moral vacuum in certain aspects of the church and a sense of arrogance that their know better than God how to judge people.
Other members of the church such as you and the Bishop of Salisbury and Unitarians seem to have a better understanding of what is honest and where integrity is. Thank You.
Typical that you would be making excuses for this spineless wretch.
The Cult of England hates the LGBT community.
They are quite open and vocal is their hatred of us.
If John had any integrity he would quit his poisonous cult and join a cult which has some human decency.
You are entitled to your inflammatory opinions as ever.
I prefer to listen to the comments of the man who is currently suing the Church of England (thus leaving perhaps would not be the best weapon in his armoury currently – even if he wanted to, and why should he leave – surely thats giving in to the prejudice and discrimination!)
When I listen to Dr Johns I hear him saying:
“In the Sixties the Church was in the forefront of the movement to decriminalise homosexuality.
“The Conservative Party realised ten years ago that the equal treatment of gay people had become a litmus test of basic human decency and changed its view, but it is a test the Church now spectacularly fails.
“In the Church of England we readily bless the second and even third marriages of couples who never darken our doors, yet we reject hundreds of our own faithful clergy and laypeople who long to bring their love and commitment before God and ask His blessing.
“The fact that fifty years on [after the
…decriminalisation of homosexuality] the Church is seen as enemy No 1 of gay people is a disaster, both for our own morale and for our mission to the country. We have become the last refuge of prejudice.”
This to me, along with his legal action against the church for its breach in employment law in discriminating against him due to his orientation – to me wholeheartedly represents someone categorically standing up against the inhumanity of some leaders within the church.
I appluad him. You disagree – you are entitled to do so. I think you are wrong, I am entitled to that view too. I prefer to support my allies rather than be vindictive against them (perhaps you feel your approach works better, its not my experience!).
Lets put it plainly. With regards the Church’s attitude toward marriage equality aren’t they rather more acting like children in a community centre who don’t want anyone playing with ‘their’ toys even though the toys are for the community?
This is totally only about the churches control over society and they sudden woken up and noticed the world doesn’t evolve around them any more. They’re realising their attitudes are making them irrelevent to the 21st Century.
Maybe they should take a good look at themselves and see the hatred they produce and see finally how whole they are to be so very bigotted and discriminating.
Complain all he wants, he’s still a VERY active participant, promoter and supporter of this homophobic, bigoted and outdated institution.
He’s an idiot.
If he has a shred of self respect or dignity he would have abandoned that cult.
He suffers from Stockholm Syndrome in that he identifies and relates to his abuser.
The Cult of England’s gays is not a ‘disaster’ – it is a triumph.
Thanks to the toxic bigotry of the cult of England, the message received by the LGBT community from the hateful cult is ‘We hate you and think you deserve to be discriminated against’.
The obvious response to such bigotry is to abandon the hateful cult.
This is to be celebtrated.
Religion has nothing of value to offer the world.
Therefore anyhting that speeds up its inevitable demise is worth celebrating.
This all a great shame, particularly since there is already a Gay Bishop in office; this one may not be open about being gay, but is well known in the area he covers.
Theres more than one bishop who is well known in his diocese as being gay (and partially open about it)
You know why it’s a disaster? Because the Bible you follow is against homosexuality.
Yeah some of us are never having children, so I don’t see how our relationship is different from those heterosexual couples who are never having them (besides the gender lol)
The Bible is a mix of different opinions, most of them human interpretations of divine acts.
The key values a Christian would follow are those taught by Jesus because, as Christians, we believe he is the son of God and so is the highest authority to have presented Himself to humans. Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus ever condemn homosexuality. He taught compassion and understanding for our fellow humans no matter who they were, not the hatred and bigotry being spread by the misguided archbishops.
It is this core value of “Love thy neighbour as thyself” which Christians should be practicing every day, it’s just some have lost their way.
what bible – storyies from an age of superstition and ignorance , when the church scribes were the only ones who knew how to read and write
And obviously didnt understand gay, so opposed it
BTW this all has roots in leviticus of 4000 years ago. If hte church really was true to the bible, virtually everyone on earth would be murdered because of some turkey named leviticus.
When we were boys of about 8 or 9 in America, we used to quiz each other: Would you rather die in the gas chamber or the electric chair? The difference between the CofE and the RC churches offers a similar perplexing choice.
I’m sure there’s a better way you could have put it than ‘his public homosexuality’.
First Carey and now Williams showing all the moral backbone of an immoral jellyfish … it’s time the Church of England stopped looking over its shoulder to see what the Vatican’s opinion might be and faced down the fanatical homophobes on the evangelical and African wings of the Church.
Great piece in the Irish Times this morning:
Explaining why Christian churches need to adopt more of a “Christian” approach to gay people.